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Donald Trump Not Backing Down on Deportation Plan. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired November 12, 2015 - 20:00   ET


[20:00:04] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. Thanks for joining us.

Donald Trump, he is certainly not backing down from his promise if elected to round up and deport as to move 11 million people who are living in this country illegally. And now, President Obama is weighing in, as well. As you know, Trump says he would establish a deportation force to do the job. He says his plan would be effective, humane and would pass legal muster. As you might also know, some within his own party and across the political spectrum have doubts about parts or all of it. Others take sharp exception to the whole idea of making mass deportations of mostly Hispanic people, the center piece of a presidential campaign and many Democrats are looking at the demographics of recent general elections basically hopes Trump keeps talking about this.

At the debate in Milwaukee this week, John Kasich confronted Donald Trump on it. And today, CNN's Erin Burnett questioned him about it, but not before he took a shot at Ben Carson that also people are talking about tonight.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He said he's pathological. Somebody said he has pathological disease. Other people said he said in the book and I haven't seen it, I know it's in the book, that he has got a pathological temper or temperament. That's a big problem because you don't cure that. That's like, you know, I could say, they say as example, child molester. You don't cure these people. You don't cure a child molester.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST, OUTFRONT: So I want to ask you about the immigration (INAUDIBLE) going on out there. You put immigration front and center in the GOP conversation.

TRUMP: You wouldn't be talking about immigration if it wasn't for me.

BURNETT: You put it on the table. And now, of course, you were criticized heavily at debate, right, Kasich, Jeb Bush, saying that your proposal --

TRUMP: Well, they are weak people. Excuse me, they are weak people. I watched Jeb today. They are weak people. And Kasich has made a fool of himself in the debate.

BURNETT: The question I'm asking, though, is how do you take 11 million people and make them move?

TRUMP: You do it through a process. You do it in a very humane manner.

BURNETT: But they don't want to leave, you have to hire people to find them and get them --

TRUMP: First of all, they are here illegally. If a person comes across the border and you send them right back, the border patrol sends them right back. There isn't a big court situation to send them back.

BURNETT: Yes, but what about the guys --

TRUMP: Excuse me.

What's the difference between somebody that comes over the border for two days and gets caught in (INAUDIBLE) and somebody who comes over the border, he is here for a year and you bring him back? There is no difference. Illegal immigration each year costs us between $200 and $300 billion. I don't know if anyone gives you those numbers, probably not. But - and when you include crime and other problems, it's more than that. So you are talking about between 200 and 300 billion the way it is now, alright?

BURNETT: But they pay in taxes --

TRUMP: Who pays in taxes? Do you believe --?

BURNETT: They pay Social Security, state and local.

TRUMP: Yes, what percentage of them, ten percent?

BURNETT: It's 24 billion a year --

TRUMP: Excuse me. Excuse me. Do you know how few pay taxes, Erin? Don't be naive. Do you think that an illegal immigrant, getting money is going to be paying taxes?

BURNETT: So on this point about humanity, though, are you going to be sending in officers --?

TRUMP: We are going to be sending in people --


TRUMP: We are going to be giving notice. We are going to be saying you have to go back to wherever the country is. I mean, it is going to countries, all different countries.


COOPER: Donald Trump there talking to Erin Burnett.

Tonight now, here is President Obama talking to NBC's George Stephanopoulos about the Trump's plan. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Imagine the images on the screen flashed around the world as we are dragging parents away from their children and putting them in, what, detention centers and then systematically sending them out. Nobody thinks that is realistic, but more importantly, that's not who we are as Americans.


COOPER: Joining us now is Paul Babeu, Sheriff of Arizona, just outside Phoenix. Also Andy Dean, he worked personally for Donald Trump for seven years and he is the former president of Trump productions and CNN political commentator Maria Cardona, who is a former senior advisor out 2008 Hillary Clinton campaign.

Sheriff, let's start with you. You are a Republican. You are also running for Congress. Does Donald Trump's plan of a so-called deportation force to do this humanely (INAUDIBLE) physically removing some 11 million people, is that logistically feasible?

SHERIFF PAUL BABEU, PINAL COUNTY, ARIZONA: It's logistically very difficult. And I think that where we should start and where the focus should be and everybody should agree is on the criminal element, a small minority of these illegals that are committing very serious crimes that have not been deported. And that's where a lot of this anger is coming from and we should focus on that is target the tens of thousands, not the 12 to 20 million illegals who are here, but focus on these folks and deport them legitimately out of our country never to return again. And that's where I'm angry about that, as well. They are releasing and not just from Mexico. They are from countries of interest. We had right here in Arizona one from Sudan, one from Iraq, one from Russia and this Russian murderer, they released into my county and then tell me two weeks after. That's the problem here. The entire system is broken for immigration. There is no consequence and therefore, there is no law.

[20:05:08] COOPER: So Andy, I mean, you know the criticisms not just from President Obama, from some Republicans, as well. We hear from John Kasich that is basically impossible to physically remove 11 million or however many undocumented of illegal immigrants there are in this country. To that, what do you say?

ANDY DEAN, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Well first, we all know John Kasich is barely even a candidate. I mean, his poll numbers are so low. So that guy is grasping at straws. As far as illegal immigration, we know it's a crime. And I agree with the sheriff that we are going to go after the criminals first. Donald Trump has a plan, and that's to build a wall with a big door to let good people back in legally. And if you're here illegally, that's a crime. When you commit a crime in this country, you get punished. And I think it's Hispanic-Americans who are most in favor of this actually because they hate illegal immigration because they are the ones suffering whether in the United States when you're suffering when illegal immigrants are creating crimes or if you're overseas and you happen to be Hispanic, you want to get into the United States legally, they can't because people are line cutting and line cutters need to be deported because they are criminals.

COOPER: Maria, I mean, the idea of a so-called deportation force, you heard from President Obama, you heard from Hillary Clinton criticizing Donald Trump. But Republican voters frankly don't care a lot about that criticism. And to Andy's point, this is something very popular, Donald Trump has surged in the polls because of his position on this.

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It is very popular within the Republican right wing base, Anderson. And I think this is exactly the challenge that the Republican Party is facing going into a primary process where those right wing voices are the loudest. And yes, the angriest and are the ones that will come out to vote in the primaries, but then when you get to a general election where there are more sensible voices out there, you have general main stream Americans including the whole lot of Latino voters who by the way, do not agree with this, do not like Trump. He has unfavorable among Latinos of over 80 percent. The one good thing that Donald Trump is doing with Latino voters is actually mobilizing them and getting them to register to come out and vote and they will come out in record numbers next year.

So his plan is absolutely unworkable. When you talk about illegal immigration and focusing on the criminal element, this is what President Obama has been doing for the last two years with prosecutorial discretion and would have been what could have been done with a bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform which is the solution most Americans support.

DEAN: That's not true --

COOPER: Andy, you know the Democrats are going to use that term deportation force, they are going to run commercials about it. I mean, are you worried beyond the logistics, are you worried at all about the perception of what it may do in a general election to the Republican candidate?

DEAN: Well Anderson, I just think it is misnomer when, you know, pundits like Marie here say that Latinos are so anti-Trump when that's not the case. I mean, if you look at Republican Latinos, especially like the state of Nevada they are pro-Trump and it's a misrepresentation in the media which the general populous who are not paying attention right now to the political campaign, when they start paying attention four to six months from now, they are going to realize Trump's message is on point. And a lot of Latinos agree that illegal immigration is a major problem. And Latinos will be the major beneficiary when we get the illegals out and we have a proper process where people can come to the country.

Anderson, one last thing. Right now, we only allow less than three- quarters of a million Americans to come in illegally into this country and we have over 12 million that are here illegally. We need to fix that problem so we can have more people come here illegally because it's the light blood of this country, Latinos have a light blood of this country and the people who commit the crimes need to go starting with gang members.

CARDONA: So Anderson, if I could --

COOPER: Well, hold on. Let me get the sheriff.

Sheriff, I understand your point about targeting criminals first. That obviously makes a lot of sense and you don't want people here, you know, attacking other people, hurting other people, but the idea of a deportation force, which is the, you know, the term that's now being tossed around, to you as not only as a Republican but American, what do you -- do you worry about the effect that would have on the Republican party in a general election when used by the Democrats?

BABEU: Look, this is a problem. This didn't happen overnight. It didn't happen just with Barack Obama. It's exacerbated because of him, but this happened under Republicans, as well. This has gone on for decades. Remember, the last time since in (INAUDIBLE) in 1986, it was President Reagan who signed for two million illegals to get citizen ship and everybody thinks every illegal wants citizen ship. Only half of them took it. The other half just wanted to work here. So we got here.

I'm not supportive of people getting here illegally. I'm fighting against it every day. But it's not helpful when the president to the point made earlier saying the president has been deporting all these criminals. The fact is he hasn't. And that's why we are in this fight here where people are so angry, 67,000 criminal illegals, the violent ones, have been released into our community. And we have got guys like grant who wanted to be a deputy with my agency who was shot right beneath his left eye, executed by a criminal illegal who had raped and did a home invasion. And this guy was out on the lamb to commit other crimes.

Nobody should be for this and this is what has happened. The rule of law is undermined. So if we could have a little bit of both, you know, we are not going to build a great wall of Mexico. And I'm combat in the army, we need about 700 miles of border, not 2,000 miles --

[20:10:56] COOPER: We got to leave it there. Maria, just very quickly.

CARDONA: I complete agree that criminal undocumented immigrants should absolutely be deported and the comprehensive immigration reform bill would have done just that. Politically, Republicans need 42 percent of the Hispanic vote to win the White House. They are not where near that.

BABEU: We'll get that.

COOPER: We are going to look at those numbers.

Maria Cardona, Andy Dean, great to have you on. Sheriff Paul Babeu as well.

Coming up next, we are going to look more hard numbers on what we've been talking about, the political impact and a case being made by Ted Cruz and others that are tough line on this and other conservative issues would help not hurt Republicans next November by getting more conservatives to turn out.

Also, we have breaking news, suicide bombers taking dozens of lives. Was ISIS behind it? We will explore the apparent claim and show you how something this terrible might have been far, far worse.

Plus, new developments tonight, he was tasered again and again, later died. Big question tonight, why has the investigation dragged on for years? We will ask the prosecutor who is handling the case.


[20:15:41] COOPER: Well, Donald Trump did more than push plans for deporting unauthorized immigrants. He also tried, as he sometimes does, to push opponents' buttons a bit. He slammed Marco Rubio, for instance, who is part of an effort to reach a compromise few years back on immigration reform.


TRUMP: Marco Rubio is in favor of amnesty. He was a member of the gang of eight. He was always in favor of amnesty. He was in favor of people pouring into the country. Then what happened is when people found that out, he sank like a rock in the water.


COOPER: Ted Cruz in the meantime had a warning for fellow Republicans today, go soft on these issues he said or conservative will stay home on election day. Republicans will lose.

In a moment, you will hear what Marco Rubio said today and we will talk about what appears to be a dilemma for the party appear soft and lose conservatives or talk tough and alienate Latinos.

So looking at the demographic in electoral map, what is the winning strategy?

Chief national correspondent John King has some answers by the numbers for us.

So John, 2012, Mitt Romney and self-deportation, now Ted Cruz talking about amnesty and Donald Trump proposing a deportation force. Any evidence the results will be any different this time around?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No, Anderson. And you can be sure the Democrats are going to say deportation force. And you are going to see it in an ad whether Trump is the nominee or not.

Look. The numbers don't lie. Let's just simply look at the demographics of the United States. I'm going to give you the 2012 presidential election. And over here you can see Barack Obama wins 52 percent to 47 percent. What happens? The percentage of the white vote was 72 percent. Mitt Romney got 59 percent of that. But look, African-Americans 13 percent. The president wins 93 percent. Latinos 10 percent of the electorate for the first time in 2012, 71 percent for the president, three percent Asian, 73 percent. If you add this up, blacks, Latinos and Asians, it's more than a quarter of the electorate. Imagine it is a football game. And you use to run up 25, 30 points the first quarter and then you play the rest even the way out, guess what? You lose. And that is what is happening to Republicans.

Just by comparison, let me show you. 2004, the last time Republicans won the White House, playing a little tricky here and bring it all up, just make the comparisons. The percentage of the white vote 77 percent in 2004, down to 72 in 2012. The African-American vote went up a little bit. The Latino vote, Anderson, in 2004 eight percent, ten percent in 2012. Guess what, it is going to be a little bigger in 2016.

So the Republicans whenever you think about the policy have a demographic crisis at the presidential level.

COOPER: And looking at the electret map, where is the immigration debate? Where does it play out? And also Latino vote, where does it make the biggest difference?

KING: Let me give you an example. Let's pull back to the national map and I'm going to go back to 2004. This is the last time, let me get that to change for you. This is the last time a Republican won the presidency. George W. Bush wins a very close election, 51-48, over John Kerry.

Let's just pick five states. George Bush won Nevada, used to be a swing state in presidential politics. George Bush won New Mexico, used to be a swing state in presidential politics. George Bush won Colorado still a swing state. George Bush won Florida and George Bush won Virginia.

Why do it circle those states? Watch these five states. That's 2004. That's 2012. Every one of them turns to blue. Now watch this. We work in the census data where the Latinos in America live, well guess what, it is hard to see the yellow, but all five of those states, a high Latino population.

Nevada and New Mexico are now blue when it comes to presidential politics. They have turned because of the Latino vote. Florida, Virginia and Colorado, Florida with a large Latino population, it's smaller in Colorado and even smaller in Virginia but you have closely contested elections, Anderson, and the Democrats are winning 67 percent of the Latino vote, it changes the electoral map hugely, hugely in the Democrat's favor.

COOPER: But Cruz says that, look, conservatives stay home when Republicans adapt same position with Democrats on things like immigration and other issues. Is that true?

KING: Not really. It is the best way to look at it. There is a big debate among Republicans about this. But Carl Rove, for example, has said flatly it's not true. Look, turnout was down in 2012 from 2008. So a lot of people say, conservatives didn't turn, Romney lost. But Democratic turnout was down even more than Republican turnout if you go from 2008 to 2012. A lot of people point to the state of Ohio and these conservative counties in the northern part of the state and say, you know, if more Republicans are turned out, Romney would have won the state. But if you look deep into the numbers, Anderson, it's simply not true.

If you look at the 2016 exit, 2012 exit polls I'm sorry, for example, the percentage of the electorate that describe itself as conservative was actually up from 2008. It is just the math isn't there. Republicans are kidding themselves, I want to go back to the other statistics. Republicans are kidding themselves if they think they can win a presidential election and win a state like Florida if they try to repeat numbers.

This is Florida with a high Cuban population. Remember, it is not in all -- different population, more conservatives, still 60-39 in the state of Florida. Republicans are kidding themselves if they think they can just get more white people to turn out and they can win for presidential level. The math does not work.

COOPER: John, thanks very much.

Given these facts on the map, you can understand why a Republican who wants to win both the primary and general election might try to thread the needle. Here is how Marco Rubio did it today in FOX News.


SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think both sides here have points to make that are valid. We are going to have to deport some people. Otherwise, if you are not going to enforce the law, what's the point of having those laws? Criminals are going to be deported. People that haven't been here long are going to be deported. People over staying visas are going to be deported. That's how you enforce immigration laws.

The flip side is, I do not believe you can round up and deport 11 million people, especially people that have been here 15 years have not otherwise violated the law, can pass background checks and so forth. And there has got to be a process to deal with that realistically. But my point is --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It sounds a little bit like -- it sounds a little bit like you're trying to ride the middle line here. Are you--?

RUBIO: But it's not about a middle line. It's about reality.


COOPER: Digging deeper now with Rubio friend and Bush supporter Ana Navarro. Also joining us is former senior Obama advisor Dan Pfeiffer. Both now are CNN political commentators.

Ana, how does the Republican Party get them talking about a deportation force this fall to actually winning or at least doing better than last anytime with Hispanic voters next fall?

ANA NAVARRO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Anderson, let's be fair. It's not the Republican Party talking about a deportation force. It is Donald Trump talking about a deportation force. I haven't heard any other Republican echo that message that he's been saying since the debate and that repeated today. I think what you're hearing from Marco Rubio, from Jeb Bush, from John Kasich, from Chris Christie, from Lindsey Graham, from a large number of people in the field, it's a very different message.

Look, the bottom line is that to solve the immigration problem, you're not going to have simplistic solutions. You are not going to have black and white solutions. It is a complex nuance issue that has been building for decades now and it's going to take a comprehensive approach.

This conversation, Anderson, makes me cringe. I thought we learned the lesson in 2008. We didn't. I thought we learned the lesson in 2012. Apparently we still haven't.

COOPER: Dan, I mean, to Ana's point and maybe unfair to paint all Republicans with a broad brush on deportation force, but for the leading candidate, I mean, for certainly Donald Trump, he's doing very well by arguing just that.

DAN PFEIFFER, FORMER SENIOR ADVISOR TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, Donald Trump is definitely reflecting the views of a large portion of the Republican base. He -- it's -- he was in the middle of the polls. He started talking about immigration and went to the top of the polls.

And even just the feelings to the base have caused both Marco Rubio and Jeb Bush the change positions on immigration. Marco Rubio was one of the gang of eight that help passed Barack Obama's immigration bill in the Senate. He then dis-vow that. Jeb Bush believe strongly in a path to citizenship and endorsed the president's play in the Senate. He has walked back to that.

This is a huge problem because there is a real difference between Republican strategists like Ana who know what the Republican Party needs to do to win election to what the voters actually want. And if candidates who have campaigned hardest against immigration reform are the ones doing best in the primary.

COOPER: Ana, I mean, you can't deny that Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, you know have started to walk back their earlier positions.

NAVARRO: It's a complicated issue. Everybody has walked back their earlier position including Hillary Clinton who Dan will remember in 2008 in a debate with Barack Obama said she wasn't even in favor of driver's licenses. And another one who has backed away from his position was Barack Obama who promised to solve immigration in the first 100 days in his first year in office and didn't do so when he had a democratic House and democrat Senate.

So I think that it's one thing that people say in campaigns. And then when you come to the harsh reality of what will pass muster in Congress, it may be different than what you thought you would promise or what you thought you could deliver. I think that Jeb Bush is taking a very pragmatic, stoic, honest look at it and trying to propose something that he thinks will be able to pass and turn into law.


NAVARRO: We have heard Latinos, immigrants heard so many promises, big promises, high in the sky. We should all be suspicious of anything and everything we hear from anybody because they have been playing with us on this issue for decades now.

COOPER: Well, Dan, I mean, if the Republican ticket has Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio on it, both of Cuban decent, whether it is the top five or the number two, doesn't it make it tougher for them, Democrats, to paint Republicans as anti-immigrant?

[20:25:10] PFEIFFER: Well, certainly not if Ted Cruz is on the given position on immigration. It's important to recognize that, you know, in the 2012 election when we would do research on what Hispanic voters around the country thought, immigration was a top issue and Jeb Bush's comment in self-deportation was a real problem for him but his position on repealing --

NAVARRO: Mitt Romney, Dan.

PFEIFFER: I'm sorry. Sorry. Mitt Romney. His --

NAVARRO: Nice try, Dan.


PFEIFFER: I think Jeb Bush would probably trade positions with Mitt Romney at this point in 2011. But his position of repealing the affordable care act was a close second. So there is a whole range of issues, not just immigration but healthcare, economic issues, education where the Republican Party struggles with the Latino vote.

COOPER: Yes, Dan Pfeiffer, Ana Navarro. Good to have you on. Thank you very much.

Coming up, there is breaking news ahead. ISIS claiming responsibility for another deadly attack. What we know about the bombers and the connections they made to the terrorist group coming up. That's next.


[20:30:05] COOPER: There is more breaking news tonight, what we're learning about a deadly suicide attack in Beirut, Lebanon. Two explosions, minutes apart, killing more than 40 people, injuring at least 200 others. ISIS has claimed responsibility. This comes after an offshoot of a terror group to credit for downing that Russian plane in Egypt earlier this month. As for today's attack, we want to warn you, as you might imagine, the images are tough to watch. Our national security correspondents Jim Sciutto has the latest.


JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The explosion struck during the height of rush hour. On an open market just south of Beirut coordinated, powerful and deadly. First, one suicide blast draws a crowd of onlookers. And a second blast strikes that crowd maximizing casualties. A third bomber killed by the blast before he could detonate his own explosives, but a fourth, Lebanese government sources tell CNN, was allegedly captured, seen here taken away as security forces fire into the air to clear the crowd.

This man said he was prying when the blast blew a door right over his head. The victims carried by bystanders over rubble from damaged buildings and rushed to nearby hospitals.

TAMARA QIBLAWI, FREELANCE JOURNALIST: There's a bomb there, the twin suicide bombing went off. The area is mostly empty. It's been cordoned off by the army. Otherwise there is a lot of shattered glass on the street, a lot of blood and it's really just a scene of chaos and carnage.

SCIUTTO: Within hours, ISIS claimed responsibility. This neighborhood is a stronghold of Hezbollah, the Lebanese militia fighting alongside Bashar al-Assad's regime in Syria. ISIS is sworn enemy there.

MICHAEL O'HANLON, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: ISIL doesn't think of itself as having borders. Let's remember why you say ISIS, I say ISIL, they say I.S., the Islamic State and they see themselves as trying to establish a caliphate which means an Islamic government covering all the areas where Muslims live today in the world, and so, Lebanon is just going to be seen as another battlefield.

SCIUTTO: The video of that arrest of that alleged fourth bomber was shown on Lebanese television. CNN cannot confirm the authenticity of it, although we were told of that arrest by sources. We are learning other details. Apparently, one of the bombers tried to get into a mosque first and Anderson, here it appears to be more evidence of ISIS's ability to project its power beyond its home base in Iraq and Syria.

COOPER: Just another sickening attack. Jim Sciutto, thank you.

Just ahead, new questions tonight about the repeated tasing of a Virginia man who died in police custody more than two years ago. The video has just been released. Why hasn't the top prosecutor wrapped it up the investigation after all this time? Gary Tuchman tracks her down.



COOPER: Tonight, we're digging deeper on the death of a 46-year-old Virginia man while in police custody, a death the coroner ruled accidental more than two years ago. Now, though, new videos have surfaced as a result of a lawsuit and graphic images are raising new questions about the case. They show Linwood Lambert in handcuffs being tased over and over outside a hospital. The officers initially brought him there for a psych evaluation. He never made it inside and died a short time later. None of the officers have been charged, and in fact the investigation is still pending more than two years later. Still in the hands of the prosecutor. We sent Gary Tuchman to track it down.


GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Acute cocaine intoxication. That's what the coroner who examined Linwood Lambert says killed him after suffering cardiac arrest. Not the multiple taser shots he received at the hands of three police officers in South Boston, Virginia.


TUCHMAN: Multiple tasering have contributed or led to his death? Could those officers be held criminally liable? That is all under investigation and has been for a long, long time. The Virginia state police says it started investigating this case when it happened after a request from the South Boston police chief. A spokesman for the state police says the investigation was completed in October 2013, two years and one month ago and the findings were sent to the commonwealth attorney here for her review. After 25 months she is still reviewing.

She is Tracy Quackenbush-Martin, the chief prosecutor in Halifax County, Virginia, who took office in December 2013. And since this story came to light has repeatedly said she does not want to speak on camera, but today, she abruptly changed her mind.

(ON CAMERA): Ms. Commonwealth Attorney, tell me why this has taken more than two years, this investigation?

TRACY QUACKENBUSH-MARTIN, HALIFAX COUNTY, VIRGINIA: This is an extremely serious matter. It's one that requires extraordinary deliberation and it's imperative to me that I reach the correct decision, not only the correct decision, but in the correct way and in a way that inspires public confidence to the extent that that is possible.

TUCHMAN (on camera): The prosecutor confirms the three police officers are still working with the South Boston police force. Can I just tell you for example, the Warren commission which investigated John Kennedy's assassination finished its report in ten months? The Virginia state police investigated this for five months and then gave you its findings. I mean, this doesn't seem like at its base the most complicated case that should take more than two years.

QUACKENBUSH-MARTIN: Well, I do believe that it is a complex matter. I do believe that it is a weighty matter, I appreciate your concerns. Telling you why it has taken as long as it is, is something that I'm happy to talk about at the conclusion of the case, but doing so now would necessarily reveal aspects of the investigation that are simply improper to talk about right now.

TUCHMAN (voice over): We went to the South Boston police station to ask about the three officers still working.

(on camera): Hello there, I'm Gary Tuchman with CNN. I wanted to see if we could talk to the chief about the Lambert case. We were told the chief did not want to make any comments to us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't kick your window!

[20:40:00] TUCHMAN (voice over): The commonwealth attorney doesn't want to say how much longer this investigation will take. She says she is not sweeping this under the rug.

QUACKENBUSH-MARTIN: I'm being professional. I'm doing everything that needs to be done for this case. I'm leaving no stone left unturned and it's my hope that the people and the press will see that when it's over.


COOPER: Gary joins us. Now, so she's not willing to say how much longer it may take her to reach a decision?

TUCHMAN: Anderson, two years certainly is a long time and one of the questions I asked the Commonwealth's attorney is could this take another two years? And she told me I suppose in theory anything can happen, but that is certainly not my intent, but no, she would not tell us a timetable. She said she is certainly looking at that video evidence, but she has a multitude of other evidence she has been looking at and that she will continue to look at.

COOPER: All right. Gary, thanks very much. As we said, it took a lawsuit to force the release of the videos showing Linwood lambert being tased. His family saw those videos for the first time just a couple of weeks ago. Joining us tonight, Mr. Lambert's father and sister, Linwood Lambert Sr. and Adrienne Lambert.

Mr. Lambert, you've been pushing the prosecutor for answers from the day your son died. When you hear her say that she's leaving no stone unturned, what goes through your mind? Do you believe her?

LINWOOD LAMBERT, LINWOOD LAMBERT'S FATHER: No, I do not. I mean if you look at the tapes and you could see clearly that she, if she saw these tapes, she would have come to a conclusion much quicker than what she has.

COOPER: Adrienne, the prosecutor also says that she wants to reach a correct decision in a way that inspires confidence to the extent it's possible. Do you have confidence in this investigation?


COOPER: What about it doesn't give you confidence?

ADRIENNE LAMBERT, LINWOOD LAMBERT'S SISTER: It's over two and a half years, and it shouldn't take this long to find out why someone died in police custody. Cases like that should be brought to immediate attention because you have families and friends and co-workers who are concerned and want to know. It holds a person's life and you can't really do too much, think or even concentrate knowing that you're waiting for someone to press the button and say OK, I'm finished and that's not right and fair.

COOPER: Mr. Lambert, your family was given these videos after one of your daughters filed a civil suit this summer. At what point did your family feel like you weren't being told the truth or you weren't being given information? When did you feel like something was wrong?

LINWOOD LAMBERT SR. Anderson, I think we started thinking something was wrong in the beginning. The day he died, we didn't even know it until the day after he died and that was about, excuse me, 11:00 Sunday morning and then I was talking to the Deputy Chief Lovelace and he seems like not trying to give me any answers to what may happen, but what had happened, but it was just a bunch of things that he was saying that I just didn't believe what he was talking about.

COOPER: And Adrienne, I mean, when you finally saw the videos, I can't imagine what that was like for you. What went through your mind?

ADRIENNE LAMBERT: I was very angry. I was very upset. It just took life out of me to see my brother sit there and plead for his life and they are not even trying to attempt to pick him up or roll him over like they wanted to and just to hear and to see all the torture that they took my brother through and they still act like it was okay, it's justifiable. It's not. It hurt me to my heart. I can't eat. I can't sleep. I can't think. I can't work. I can't do anything and it's sad that they've taken my life away from me.

COOPER: Mr. Lambert, for you, what would justice look like in this case?

LINWOOD LAMBERT SR.: Well, justice for me, I see those officers handcuffed and taken off to jail.

COOPER: That's what you want to see happen?


COOPER: Well, Mr. Lambert, I appreciate you joining us and Adrienne, as well. Thank you so much. We'll continue to follow this.


LINWOOD LAMBERT SR.: Thank you for having us.

COOPER: Just ahead, two powerful voices on the gun violence crisis in Chicago. Spike Lee talks about his new film "Chiraq" and what he thinks is going to take to stop the killing, plus longtime activist Father Michael Pfleger shares what he's learned over decades of trying to make Chicago streets safer.



COOPER: Tonight, part two of my interview with Spike Lee and Father Michael Pfleger. I met up with him in Chicago where gun violence and gangs have made the city's South side one of the most dangerous places to be a child. On Tuesday, Tyshawn Lee was laid to rest. He was just nine years old. He was gunned down in an ally execution style. Police believe he was targeted because of his father's alleged association with the local gang. At the funeral Father Pfleger who gave the eulogy could not contain his frustration and anger.


FATHER MICHAEL PFLEGER, SAINT SABINA CATHOLIC CHURCH: Tyshawn was not in the wrong place. The murderer, the executioner, the assassin, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time! Tyshawn was doing what every child has a right to do, be a child!


COOPER: Father Pfleger has spent decades trying to make Chicago's most dangerous streets safer. He's the model for a character in Spike Lee's new film, "Chiraque". Here's part two of our interview.


COOPER: What do you think it is about here that makes it so bad?

PFLEGER: All I can say is there's a growing hopelessness that I've seen over the last number of years that is a level that I've never seen before and a sense that nothing is changing, nothing is getting better.

COOPER: And how many years have you been here in St. Sabina?

PFLEGER: 40 years. I've been living in this building.

COOPER: In St. Sabina?

PFLEGER: I've seen the up and the downs over the years. Perfect example, town hall meeting a year ago. At the end of the town home meeting in Inglewood a kid raises his hand before everybody gets - and says can I just ask one question?


PFLEGER: Does anybody care? Does anybody care about us?

When I asked a young sixth grade girl in my school, what do you want to be when you grow up? She says alive. The kids are dealing with that kind of ...

COOPER: You've heard people say that to you.

PFLEGER: Oh, yeah, I had a third grader last week after this nine- year-old boy Tyshawn Lee got killed say, walking over to the gym, I heard about the young boy that got murdered and got killed. Am I safe?

COOPER: I heard you refer to this as a self-inflicted genocide. Explain that. SPIKE LEE, DIRECTOR, "CHIRAQ": Well, here is the thing, though, I and

I'll be criticized for this, but I don't care. I'm all for Black Lives Matter. I can't breathe, don't shoot. And I'm not speaking on behalf of 45 African Americans, this is my own belief, Anderson. I'm with that. But we as the people can't be blind. We can do - All that is fine. Eric Gardner, we go down the line. Those were, that was wrong. But we cannot be out there going yeah, yeah, there and then when it comes to young brothers killing themselves, then mum is the word. No one is saying nothing. You can't - It's got to be ...

COOPER: Both ends.

LEE: Both ends.

COOPER: It's not enough to focus on Black Lives Matter movement, on ...

LEE: You can focus on it.

COOPER: Police brutality.

LEE: But you can't ignore that we are killing ourselves, too. We can't ignore that.

COOPER: So, how do you address that? I mean how - you preach to people.

PFLEGER: We have to fight the killing of our children whether it is a raciest cop, whether it is a George Zimmerman vigilante or whether it is black on black crime.

LEE: It doesn't matter.

PFLEGER: Murder is wrong. Killing is wrong. No matter whose hand it is and the race of a hand it is and so we just try to fight that from that standpoint that whenever -- so we fight against racial profiling and police brutality, but I also want a child that's killed in the city and these that have no reason, we put on rewards like we do with Tyshawn Lee.

COOPER: You put up a reward.

PFLEGER: We set a reward fund years ago, when (INAUDIBLE), maybe 15 years ago we started that. We consistently put up rewards. We start at $5,000 for anybody to find the person. I'm one of the first people that say I hate the prison system, Anderson. I hate it. I think it's horrible. I think it's broken. I think they do nothing for helping inmates in there. But you can't kill a child and go back in your life and watch TV and eat McDonald's and hang out in the street at the park like everything is okay. You can't do that.

LEE: That's not okay.

PFLEGER: You can't do that. And if we allow that and tolerate that, then we as a community are saying it's all right. I understand the fear element. I understand people saying, but, you know, they will come after me. My comment has always been, if one person comes forward and yeah, they become the target of the gang or whatever, say, you come out and you put such and such in jail, but it's never just one person that knows about it.

COOPER: But people in general -- a lot of times people do not come forward to talk.

PFLEGER: Absolutely, they don't and that's a problem.

LEE: That's a fact.

PFLEGER: And I get the fear element, but someplace we have to understand a conscience has to trump fear.

COOPER: You know, it used to be that a snitch was somebody who committed a crime and then pointed the finger at somebody else in order to get a lesser sentence. It's now gotten to the idea of anybody who talks to police, anybody who has witnessed a crime and talks to police about what they saw gets that label and that label is -- that's a -- I mean, that is a bad word in communities throughout America. Nobody wants to be labeled a snitch.

PFLEGER: No, and because you feel you're putting yourself in danger, you're labeled by certain groups in the community, and also, you know, we can't deny from this the broken bridge between law enforcement and the community. It's bad.

LEE: They don't trust them. People don't trust them.

PFLEGER: Not at all. And so, if they do say something and say I'll do this anonymously and then their name is put out there in the street that they said this, so now there is just a lack of trust for the police. We can't -- we can't walk away from that. That's real. And work needs to be done on both sides, but we have to understand that bridge is broken.


COOPER: Well, tomorrow we're going to continue our look at the violence gripping Chicago's South Side. You'll hear from moms who have lost their children to guns. Some remarkable moms you're going to meet tomorrow night. Their strength is incredible. What they say needs to be done to try to make their neighborhood safe.

Still ahead tonight, pilots blinded by the light.


COOPER: The FAA says more than 20 flights were hit by lasers last night in several states.


COOPER: Quick checking of some headlines.

Amara Walker has a "360" bulletin. Amara. AMARA WALKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Anderson. Another black eye for the Secret Service, and this time involving an agent, assigned to the White House. Lee Robert Moore is accused of sending naked pictures of himself to what he saw was a 14-year old girl. Well, that girl was actually Delaware state police. Moore faces up to ten years in jail if convicted.

More than 20 planes and helicopters were struck by lasers last night and that's according to the FAA. The incidents took place in ten states including New Jersey where this video was taken by a local news helicopter.

Over 100 women are suing a birth control manufacturer for millions of dollars. Their suit alleges their pills were incorrectly packaged and led to unplanned pregnancies and what better a day for a UFO sighting than Friday the 13th. Astronomers around the world will be watching as a piece of space junk six feet in diameter enters the Earth - the Earth atmosphere over the Indian Ocean. Anderson?

COOPER: All right, Amara, thanks very much. Appreciate it. That does it for us. "Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown" starts now.