Return to Transcripts main page

LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

28 Governors Tell Obama Refugees Are Not Welcome In Their States; Richard Branson Says He Is "Saddened" By Reaction To Syrian Refugees; House Could Vote This Week On Refugee Issue; House Speaker Paul Ryan Calls For Pause In Refugee Program; Bataclan Survivor Shares How He Hid In Bathroom While Terrorists Were There. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired November 17, 2015 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:30:59] POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Welcome back. I'm Poppy Harlow, live in Paris. There has been a lot of discussion about whether or not the United States should accept refugees from Syria following the news that one of the attackers here in Paris slipped into this country posing as a refugee from Syria.

Twenty-eight governors now across the United States say they don't want Syrian refugees in their state.

Richard Branson, the founder of Virgin Group has been very vocal on this. He just posted an opinion piece about an hour ago on his blog and it reads in part, "Closing the gates, as not just U.S. governors, but also Europe -- many European leaders are now proposing, will engender precisely the types of divisions that terror groups like ISIS seeks to exploit. The more we segregate pigeon hole and label, the more they gain, as it reinforces their twisted world view and strengthens recruitment into their ranks."

Richard Branson, joins me now. Thank you for being with me, Richard.

RICHARD BRANSON, FOUNDER, VIRGIN GROUP: Thank you.

HARLOW: And just about two hours ago, we heard from House Speaker Paul Ryan asking for a "pause" to be placed on the Syrian refugee program that President Obama wants to bring 10,000 more refugees into this country.

Why is that the wrong answer in your opinion?

BRANSON: I think it's what the ISIS would like to see happen, and no characters built itself on refugees on helping people like the Jewish people when there was the horrors of the Second World War. And now I believe that they should help the Syrian people. You know, almost all of them have had the most, you know, ghastly time, and they desperately need places to live and it is through this refugees that -- the settlements that America has become great, and we -- and it mustn't stop just because of one incident in Paris.

HARLOW: You are European and you call the U.K. home. We have seen what has happened, the threat of ISIS even greater for many European nations than for the United States. Are you concerned at all?

BRANSON: Look, I think everybody should be concerned. I mean I think there are some positive things that have come out of last week, if you can state anything positive has come out, I think that that gave Russia and the rest of the West seems to be now working together, that's the positive. But it -- You know, it's been a horrendous week, and it's been a -- it's all the more important I think in situations like this that we treat the refugee people with decency, that we show that we are above this and we don't pander too exactly what ISIS would like us to pander to and that is to shut our borders.

I think Germany has been wonderfully brave (inaudible) and wonderfully brave in letting people in. And I see America as a brave country, and I find it, you know, very, very sad to see governors like Governor Bobby Jindal who -- of Louisiana who is a refugee himself, you know, trying to stop the refugees coming in. And, yeah, 99.9999 percent of them all are absolutely fine. Maybe even 100 percent are fine and we don't punish hundreds of thousands of people for the deeds of one person.

HARLOW: Right. It is interesting that you point out Governor Bobby Jindal, obviously yes, the son of refugee. You point specifically in your opinion piece, Richard, to the city of Detroit and the new mayor, the mayor of Detroit, and you -- who now differs on this from, by the way, the Governor of Michigan, Rick Snyder.

Talk about Detroit specifically as an example that you see hope in.

BRANSON: Well, Detroit, I mean I met the mayor in Detroit and he would like to take in as many refugees as he can to help build his city again. And, you know, these Syrian people, they are wonderful people, they are hardworking people, they're delightful people, and they've been through hell and high water.

And you know, it would be fantastic to Detroit to take them in. And, you know, Germany's economy will benefit enormously from the million refugees they have taken in, in (inaudible) four years time. And Detroit would benefit enormously if the governor of Detroit can be brave and let them in, and let them build the state.

And, you know, if somebody wants to, you know, get to America, they don't have to pretend to be a refugee. They can get on an airplane and they can pretend to be something else. You know, like you don't punish hundreds of thousands of people for the sake of maybe one or two people who are most likely will be able to get to America any way by Canada or in other ways.

[12:35:55] HARLOW: Sir Richard Branson, I appreciate your time with us. Thank you very much.

BRANSON: Thank you. Thank you. HARLOW: Coming up next. Even though more than half of the nation's governors now are rejecting President Obama's plan to welcome 10,000 Syrian refugees to America, is there anything that those governors legally can do to keep them out of their state?

We'll discuss next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:40:45] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN HOST. Welcome back to our special coverage of the deadly terror attacks in Paris.

House Speaker Paul Ryan is now joining the course of all of those governors who do not want Syrian refugees flowing into the United States, particularly their states. The president says the United States may take in as many as 10,000 by the end of next year.

This morning, Speaker Ryan urged the White House to put on the brakes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PAUL RYAN, (R-WI) HOUSE SPEAKER: It is important that we have a refugee system in place. We respect that. But we think it is simply prudent that for this particular program in this particular situation that we'd be better guarded against any possible infiltration of ISIS coming through this program. That is why we think it is necessary to have a pause and to have a more comprehensive strategy dealing with guaranteeing that we do not allow ISIS members coming here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: This will give you an idea of who is for and who is against the refugees coming in to the United States. At least 28 governors are saying, "No, not in my state." Only little more than a handful are saying it is okay. And there are some not weighing in.

With me now, CNN Senior Legal Analyst, Jeffrey Toobin and in our Washington Newsroom Justice Correspondent, Ariane de Vogue.

Ariane, let me begin with you. And let's be very clear about who holds the power here in setting the policy. Because it seems pretty clear that the 1980 Refugee Act hands all of that power over to the president, and the president alone.

ARIANE DE VOGUE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, this refugee groups and immigrant rights groups were stunned yesterday, not only by the tone of these press releases from the governors but how quick they were issued. They came like a tidal wave yesterday afternoon and the groups believe that the federal government yet to decide who can come in to the borders.

The states can make things more difficult, they can withhold funding, they can make an unwelcome atmosphere, and most importantly, they can affect the coordination with the resettlement agencies. But this (inaudible) yesterday what the governors did not stress was the extents of vetting process that exists. It starts right now with the branch of the United Nations overseas, they work with the state departments, Department Of Homeland Security, and they do do extensive vetting on fingerprints, DNA, facial recognition, all those issues.

And because of the Syrians, they also sometimes deal with the intelligence agency. It is pretty thorough, and only after that do the nine contracted resettlement agencies deal with the refugees, and they are in the states now, and they talked to the state resettlement groups that are across the country. And that is where the states could step in and affect that coordination and that relationship, but these refugees are coming in as legal residents.

BANFIELD: So let me bring in Jeffrey Toobin into the conversation for sort of how the law works its way into this discussion. Because while the law seems very clear, to effectuate the law requires some negotiation with those states.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: In cooperation from the states. The way this process works is that the president does set a number and then this process that Ariane describes goes forward and they have already been about 1,500 Syrian refugees coming to the country often after very long waits as long as two years.

The resettlement process is done by these non-governmental organizations, often church affiliated and they often have to coordinate with the states.

BANFIELD: So the states can say, "Not so fast, because we have some coffers of our own here that are essential to this process."

TOBIN: They have money, they sometimes have legal relationships with these settlement organizations. In normal circumstances, they are not contentious relationships. But if the governor -- governors want to say, "We are not taking any of these refugees," they can make life difficult, they can slow the process down.

Our colleague, Brianna Keilar, interviewed the governor of North Carolina earlier today and he said the White House is doing a conference call tonight with the governors to try to calm the process down a little bit but obviously people are very (inaudible).

BANFIELD: If I am a frustrated governor and I understand these frustrations on both sides of this argument that if that governor wants to get tough on this, I get that the governor could free some state level refugee benefits and payments. They could probably withhold some of the federal money that comes in that they need to distribute. But can they do other things like withhold the driver's license or prevent your child from going to school? I mean, could they make it so distasteful to be in a state that a refugee won't want to be there and will migrate elsewhere?

[12:45:35] TOOBIN: That is certainly possible especially when you have a situation now where there are a handful of states that are saying they will take them. And remember, you know, in the United States we don't have borders between states. People can get up and leave once they are inside of the United States. Now, they can't necessarily take their benefits if they have any with them, but this is one of the both benefits and one of the worries about this process which is that once people are in the United States, they are here and we don't track people and we don't have monitored borders and that's one of the things we love about this country, but it also is a security risk.

BANFIELD: It (inaudible) is no 100 percent risk-free solution and we all know what it's like when refugees are left to fester for years and years in camps, in hostile countries that can also be very dangerous to the global process as well.

Ariane, thank you so much. It's nice to see you on the program. And Jeffrey Toobin, as always, thank you, I do appreciate it.

Coming up next. He survived the Paris concert by hiding in a bathroom just feet away from terrorist and you simply won't believe what he saw, what he heard before the police stormed in.

The incredible interview just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:51:16] HARLOW: Before we go this hour, we wanted to remind you about the best of Paris. There you see a shot, a live shot of the Eiffel Tower, symbolic of so much of what this city stands for and clouds behind it.

Soon it will be lit up to the colors of the French flag, blue, white, and red. And take a look behind me. This is La Place de la Republique which is known as the square for all in this city for all.

You see hundreds of people here. They have been here consistently all through the night, every single day since the attack placing flowers and candles and notes and painting on the monument there with the three statues of fraternity, liberty and equality. Now, an incredible story of survival. I spoke with a man who was at

the Bataclan Concert Hall when a gunman burst in on Friday night. He told me about hiding in a bathroom for hours on and he could even hear the killers talking about what they were doing. He shared all of it with me moment by moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PIERRE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

HARLOW: Pierre's hands still tremble when he remembers the horror.

PIERRE: Those guns like tatata-tata (ph) and you just see all the peoples just falling on the floor and with all the bloods and they've just -- they are just like 17 years old or 20, just so young people, Arabic ones, black ones, white ones.

HARLOW: He can't believe he's alive sitting next to me recounting the most terrifying hours of his life.

PIERRE: I feel for the first time that I am happy to be alive.

HARLOW: You feel guilty that you survived?

PEIRRE: Of course.

HARLOW: Did you see any of the gunmen?

PEIRRE: The terrorist? Yeah, with the guns they just like (inaudible) talking moment (inaudible).

HARLOW: They did not have mask on?

PEIRRE: No, none of them.

HARLOW: Like so many others in the Bataclan that night, he thinks nothing of the first shot.

PEIRRE: At the beginning I thought it was just a joke.

HARLOW: Really?

PEIRRE: I thought a part of the show.

HARLOW: And when did you realize?

PEIRRE: When we saw all those guys just falling on the floor and the blood everywhere and everybody just crying and ...

HARLOW: Did being in the bathroom save your life?

PEIRRE: There is no security (inaudible).

HARLOW: You were in the bathroom with three people?

PEIRRE: In a (inaudible), it was just ...

HARLOW: Behind you?

PEIRRE: Behind the door.

HARLOW: Just minutes later, he sees the terrorist speed (ph) through the crack of the door.

You heard them preparing a bomb...

PEIRRE: Yeah.

HARLOW: ... and talking about the hostages. How long did you hide in that toilet, in the bathroom?

PEIRRE: Two hours and a half.

HARLOW: Two and a half excruciating hours before police barge in.

When did you finally come out? PEIRRE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE) When the SWAT team launched a raid, they started shooting at a door, they started shooting at everyone. The terrorists responded by shooting back and they blew themselves up and everything exploded, the lights went down, there's smoke everywhere

And then we understood it was the police so we opened the door, and they put the gun to my forehead.

HARLOW: The police?

PEIRRE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE) Yeah, and we were like this.

HARLOW: Finally, after the police came in, you walked over corpses, you walked over dead bodies.

PEIRRE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE) The concert hall floor was covered in bodies, blood on the walls, blood everywhere, it's the fabric, bags, it's the apocalypse, it's the apocalypse.

HARLOW: Two of his friends die in the attack.

Walking out alive, he has one thought.

PEIRRE: We have to love everybody. We have to love the differences. We have to smile. That's the -- That's our fight against the terrorists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:55:16] HARLOW: We have to smile. That is our fight against terrorists. Pretty amazing words from someone who almost died on Friday night.

Thank you so much for being with us. Wolf starts right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)