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Major Anti-Terror Raid in Hunt for Mastermind; Paris, Healing the Wounds; Former French Foreign Minister on Attacks; Two Suspects Dead in Hunt for Ringleader; France Will Still Accept Refugees; CIA Chief Wants Stricter Refugee Screening; Passport Carried by Attacker Processed through Greece; Refugees Respond to Paris Attacks; A History of Violence; Imagine a World. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired November 18, 2015 - 14:00   ET




CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): A major antiterror operation unfolds today in a Paris suburb and just in the nick of time, say

authorities, before another attack. We bring you the day's dramatic events.

Also ahead this hour, live from Paris in the Place de la Republique, French senator Nathalie Goulet as President Hollande calls on the world to

destroy ISIS.

And veteran CNN correspondent Jim Bittermann on the psychological shocks of these attacks.

And also former foreign minister, Bernard Kouchner, tells me the terrorists will not change this country's joie de vivre.


AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour. live in Paris this evening.

A heavily armed predawn raid nets an extraordinary haul of terrorists and shows that cells were much bigger than previously known as the

intensive hunt for terrorists still at large after Friday's attacks continues.

Eight terror suspects have been arrested. Two others have been killed, including a woman who blew herself up with a suicide belt.

Authorities say they were targeting the man believed to have masterminded the Friday 13th attacks and a DNA testing is now underway to determine

whether, in fact, he was among the dead.

And, chillingly, police sources say the raid was just in time as suspects were, quote, "about to move on some kind of operation."

Our Atika Shubert was in Saint-Denis in the early hours of the day and shows us just how the raid unfolded.


ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Reports of gunfire and explosions emerged on social media early Wednesday morning in the northern

suburb of Saint-Denis in Paris.

Suspects linked to Friday's deadly terrorist attacks were believed to be holed up. One witness described the scene from his apartment nearby.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can still hear the gunfire.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When did this start and for how long has it been going on?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From 4:30, because I was sleeping and my wife woke me up to ask me if I'm hearing something.

I say, no.

But yes, absolutely, there was gunfire, then I woke up. And now I can't sleep.

SHUBERT (voice-over): Police blocked off roads and told residents to stay inside their homes in Saint-Denis, the area home to the Stade de

France sports stadium where three suicide bombings took place on Friday. We were down at the scene where the police operation was underway.

We're just being moved back and I'm sorry to have cut you off.

Moments later, investigative police officers began circulating the area where we were standing.

And an explosion has just gone off. This is still very much an ongoing operation. That was quite a large explosion in that direction.

A second one now.

Just hold on. No gunfire that we can tell so far. A third explosion.

SHUBERT (voice-over): The raid lasted approximately six hours, ending at around 10:30 local time. Two terrorist suspects have been declared

dead, one of them a woman who blew herself up with a suicide belt. Seven others were arrested, including three men who were escorted out of the

apartment by police.

One witness described the scene inside the building to CNN affiliate France Deux (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): It felt like the ceiling of the restroom was cracking. I tried to protect myself between the doors of

the restroom and the bedroom. I stayed like that with my baby.

Really, we could see the bullets, the light of the laser pointing our way. Really, it was explosions, we could feel the building really shaking.

I could hear the guys upstairs running and they were screaming at each other.

SHUBERT (voice-over): By noon residents were allowed back in but police continue to seal off the street where the suspects lived as

forensics teams comb the aftermath. It has been a terrifying ordeal for the residents of Saint-Denis, one they can only hope is finally over --

Atika Shubert, CNN, Paris.


AMANPOUR: So that was Atika Shubert, out there in Saint-Denis, as that very, very long raid was underway. And as you heard her say, the

prosecutor has now confirmed that two people were killed in the raid. But they have not yet been identified.

Francois Molins says the alleged attack ringleader, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, and another suspect, Salah Abdeslam. are not in custody. Here's

what he told reporters this evening.

FRANCOIS MOLINS, PARIS PROSECUTOR (through translator): A shootout then carried virtually --


MOLINS (through translator): -- uninterrupted for almost an hour. The operation was extremely difficult, given several factors, the complex

character of the operation which required assault weapons, offensive grenades, the fact that this one terrorist just killed himself.

Three individuals, including one who was wounded with a bullet in the arm, were arrested. Their identities are still being verified.


AMANPOUR: Now, just after that demonstration of resolve and those practical successes, just after that, French president Francois Hollande

made an address in which he said the raid was aimed at, quote, "neutralizing a cell that had been connected to" those who carried out

Friday's, quote, "barbaric acts, proving, what kind of threat this country is facing."


FRANCOIS HOLLANDE, PRESIDENT OF FRANCE (through translator): These actions confirm to us once again that we are at war, a war against

terrorism, which itself has decided to bring war to us.


AMANPOUR: We want to show you now some amateur video just in to CNN that captures some of the gun battle that went on in that raid. Take a



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking foreign language).


AMANPOUR: So Fred Pleitgen joins us now live from Saint-Denis. Fred, you've been listening like I have to some of that that went down earlier

this morning. And you were there. And you've listened, of course, to the prosecutor, who has given the country the basic results of what happened.

What has surprised you and what did you notice as that was all going down?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the thing that I noticed the most, Christiane, was certainly the intensity of

what was going on. First of all, the manpower, that the police, at least, in the initial stage, has brought to bear here.

Around the area here there were an immense member of police special forces, BRI forces as well as raid, that were guarding the area, that were

outside directly the apartment, ready to go in at any point in time.

The police later said that the amount of resistance that they met was so intense that they themselves then had to use extremely heavy ordnance to

try and blast their way into that apartment. That caused huge damage to that building that we can see from the outside even, caused one floor of

that building to completely collapse.

And this operation is still going on in that the police is still inside that building right now. And, Christiane, only about three or four

minutes ago, I would say, there was another controlled detonation right here that we heard from the street because they're still going through that

apartment, still blowing things up where they're not sure what it is to be on the safe side -- Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Fred, talk to me about that, because we're also hearing that, you know, everybody has wanted to know, who were the terrorists who

were killed, who are in custody?

The prosecutor said Abdelhamid Abaaoud, the man who is suspected of masterminding the Friday 13th attacks, is not in custody but nor did he say

whether he was dead or not. And we understand there are investigations still to determine the identity of some of them.

What is the state of the apartment that you've just been talking about?

I mean, is there any remaining matter that they can actually identify or is it just a great big mess there?

PLEITGEN: Yes, that's the big question. It appears as though, from the reports that we're getting, that there really isn't very much left to

attempt to identify. As I said, it appears as though one whole floor of that building collapsed. It seems as though there was fire inside that

building as well.

When we were out here, as the siege was still going on, there were also a lot of firefighters on the scene as well to try and prevent that

building from basically burning down completely. But there is extensive damage. And you're absolutely right. It will be very difficult for those

who are now doing a forensics to try and determine whether or not Abdelhamid Abaaoud was among those who were killed.

Of course we also know that the other person who was killed was a female suicide bomber. The police certainly believe that a relative of

Abaaoud was here onsite.

Now, even with those who were wounded, some of them --


PLEITGEN: -- the identities are not exactly clear. Some of them are in hospital. Some of them have pretty severe wounds as well. So the

police have not been able to talk to them yet.

However, they do believe that this cell was directly related to the attackers that conducted those attacks in Paris on Friday. And so

certainly they hope to get a lot of information from them that might lead them to get a clearer picture of how big these cells were, what sort of

interaction they had, of what sort of relations there might be between people who are connected there.

They hope that there's going to be a lot of valuable information out there, Christiane. But it seems as though, at this stage in time, it's

going to take a while for them to say with any sort of certainty whether the ringleader of all of this, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, whether he was killed or

whether he's still at large.

AMANPOUR: Fred, thank you. Of course that is the question everybody wants answered.

Let's not forget also that Salah Abdeslam is still on the run, an international manhunt out for him as well. He is wanted in connection with

Friday's attacks. Let's also not forget that several police officers were wounded in what was a long and dangerous operation that, nonetheless, has

produced results.

And coming up, what about tackling the trauma, the psychological scars that could take a long time to heal?

We take a look at the support that's going to the city's very young. That's next.




AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. And we are live from Paris tonight.

Now, last Friday's terror attacks shocked and stunned the people of this city. And the emotional scars will take a long time to heal, as CNN's

Jim Bittermann has been finding out.


JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SR. INTL. CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From the French president on down, there are many here who believe last week's

bloody terrorist attacks were specifically targeting young people. And young people, their parents and their teachers know it. Parents struggle

to explain the bloody scenes to their younger children.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I can feel the children's fear. The children don't understand what happened, so I explained

everything in appropriate vocabulary for them.

BITTERMANN (voice-over): But for the generation closer in age to most of the victims, interpreting what happened is up to each individual. At a

high school, a few hundred yards from the worst carnage, some students knew victims and most all, the cafes and theater that were attacked.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whenever we have a student who is willing to talk about it, who needs to, he can leave the room and go and talk to the


BITTERMANN (voice-over): But silent students say something, too. The nurse who has seen a half-dozen students say she looks for signs of anxiety

or fear and sends severely affected young people to the district's city hall psychological support unit.

BITTERMANN: It's not just young people who may have problems. Psychologists say that among the families, the survivors, the various first

responders --


BITTERMANN: -- including even the police and firemen, there may be as many as 5,000 people who will need some kind of psychological support and

counseling and may have some kind of temporary effect after the events of Friday the 13th.

BITTERMANN (voice-over): Psychologist Jean-Pierre Vouch is part of a team of first responders and was on the scene of the worst attack of the

concert hall within minutes after the shooting stopped. Firemen and even the hardened members of the SWAT team, he says, were in tears.

JEAN-PIERRE VOUCH, PSYCHOLOGIST (through translator): There were two shocks. The youth of the bodies on the ground, hundreds of bodies. And

once the assault was over, the deadly silence. And then all the cellphones of the deceased began to ring, a concerto of cellphones.

BITTERMANN (voice-over): Vouch says for those who witnessed or lived through the horrendous scenes of the Friday the 13th attacks, psychological

effects may be felt for some time to come. Most will be over the traumatic of events of last Friday within a matter of months, he says, but some could

need psychological support for years -- Jim Bittermann, CNN, Paris.


AMANPOUR: And Jim is with me here right now.

Jim, it really does bring it home when you hear about the young people, even the medical staff, the rescue personnel, who are traumatized,

rightly so, by what they've seen. Lots of psychologists from around the country, we understand, are being deployed here.

BITTERMANN: Absolutely. This is a fairly recent -- I say fairly; probably the last 10 years or so, that France has developed this

psychological support system when there is -- when there are these kinds of traumatic events and there have been more and more of them.

The psychiatrists and psychologists that we interviewed for this were saying that, in fact, a lot more could be done and when you see an event

like this one, there's just not enough people. I mean --

AMANPOUR: I mean, budgets all over the world, we're hearing, that for mental health and counseling, all those budgets are being cut. But at a

time like this, just about everyone involved needs it.

BITTERMANN: Exactly. And I think there will be an argument made here that they've got to have more of these kinds of people. There have been

all kinds of -- the gentleman we interviewed there had been to the Concorde crash; he had been through "Charlie Hebdo," been through a number of

different things where they respond quickly at the scene and provide psychological help right away.

AMANPOUR: And then they sometimes get the post-traumatic shock.

What about how you see this city, there's no way you can say bouncing back but trying to continue?

Because we saw on Saturday, obviously, almost a deserted city. They were told to stay indoors. And they're just not doing it anymore,

obviously. Schools are open. And people are coming out. Museums have been open again this week. The three-day official mourning is over now.

This is a city you know really well.

How is it faring?

Well, I think, you know, there a lot of things coming back. There have been some cancelations, though. I've seen some, for example, hotel

cancellations; events canceled, the gatherings here have been canceled.

One thing that we're still waiting to hear about is the lighting ceremony on the Champs Elysee. That was supposed to be tonight. It was

supposed to be tonight and it was canceled. Whether they'll do it some other date. One of the things I think they're worried about is gatherings

of people.

Do they have something going on that's going to bring more people out that could be targets?

AMANPOUR: President Hollande has practically every day addressed the people and again today he made reference to the raid. He said that it was

aimed at getting rid of this cell that was connected and he said in contact with the Friday attackers and again said that we are at war.

How do you see the political military security operation sort of playing out?

They do seem to be trying to ramp up for a much more decisive hit in Syria.

BITTERMANN: I think they absolutely are. They sent out the Charles de Gaulle this morning. It sailed this morning.

AMANPOUR: The aircraft carrier.

BITTERMANN: The aircraft carrier, yes. And we heard that there is an appeal out for 17,000 more security -- that would include security folks,

would include army, police but also intelligence services.

That's to get people in, listening and watching the Internet, finding out what's being planned and plotted. And that's a big number. It's going

to bust the budget for the defense budget but already the European Union is saying, well, you know, we'll make excuses for it.

AMANPOUR: Isn't that, though, the problem. You say bust the budget. But one of the problems is that very important elements of a state security

have been sort of whittled away, whether it's intelligence, whether it's military, whether it's security in general. And they're going to have to

ramp that up again because they themselves say that we don't have the wherewithal to go after these people and stop these plots -- well, not all

of them anyway. They stopped some of them. But this is a huge one that got through the loop.

BITTERMANN: Sure. And I mean, the Europeans in general have been scaling back and scaling back on defense budgets over the last two decades,

since the Cold War ended basically. And I think this is a turning point now where we're going to see things ramped up and budgets grow because you

just can't tolerate the kinds of things we saw on Friday.

AMANPOUR: Jim, thank you very much indeed.


AMANPOUR: Thanks, Jim.

Up next, as Parisians, as we've just been saying, rally to the city's cafes and terrasse in defiance, so do we. I asked the former French

foreign minister if last week's attacks could be a game-changer not just in the fight against ISIS but in the struggle to keep and survive their way of





AMANPOUR (voice-over): Welcome back to the program. The sound of 90,000 people, French and British football fans, singing "La Marseillaise"

at the friendly match between the two sides last night.

Now, Parisians, as we stand here in the Place de la Republique and watch them come out over and over again, morning, noon and night, and there

are huge banners up behind on that famous monument that say, "Not afraid," and the candles are lit.

And they have put on a united front in the face of terror by doing what they know best, coming out, taking to the city's famous cafes and bars

and carrying on with the life that they love.

And in one such cafe the famous Cafe de Flore in Saint-Germain des Pres, I asked former foreign minister Bernard Kouchner if France as a whole

is up to this major game-changing security challenge.


AMANPOUR: Foreign Minister Kouchner, welcome back to our program.


AMANPOUR: We've talked many times but never in circumstances like this. We're sitting in a cafe. They tried to attack your way of life by

attacking restaurants, cafes, concert halls.

Will they succeed?

KOUCHNER: Certainly not. They will frighten the people but you attack so stupidly the youth of my country, I mean, mixed youths with Jews,

with Christians with et cetera. It was unbelievable. But they did.

AMANPOUR: Do you think this is a game-changer in confronting ISIS?

KOUCHNER: Yes. It is. I think that it will be a bit long to accept or to propose because the French position in between Russia and America,

the United States of America, to propose a consensus of compromise, it will be done, yes, certainly.

AMANPOUR: There are many who are now likening ISIS --


AMANPOUR: -- and its ambitions to the kind of Nazis that we saw in the 20th century. They're different. It's an asymmetrical war. But they

have terrible tactics and very, very global aims.

Are we aware of that and are we up to the fight?

KOUCHNER: We are. You and me, certainly, but the nations are ready for that. They will not succeed. Democracy will succeed. It has never

been that barbarians -- a little while, yes, but after that, will be defeated.


KOUCHNER: -- what happens this night in Saint-Denis close to Paris. The police and the special forces of the police attack the people. And

they knew, so step by step, will certainly clear, if I may say so. And the goal, ISIS' goal was to separate the people that come in. It will not

succeed at all.

AMANPOUR: Your president has said that Syria is the biggest terrorist factory in the world today. He's talked about war. France is at war. War

has been declared on France. He's used the term army, an army of jihadists, an army of terrorists.

I asked Secretary John Kerry when he came here yesterday whether we should expect that this is the new normal, that these civilian casualties

are now somehow the unacceptable but acceptable face of this new enemy.

KOUCHNER: I don't think so. We will defeat them. And this is not normal at all. We cannot just suppress the life of the people with no

reason through the sort of religious angle. This is not true. They are liars and murderers. That's so. And sometimes completely insane,

psychopathology insane. But nevertheless now, we have all together in a sort of not two coalitions but one coalition, we'll defeat them. It will

take some months, certainly.

AMANPOUR: Maybe even years.

KOUCHNER: I don't know but for the time being, French reaction and the French people are surprising. You will see. We will surprise again

the world.

AMANPOUR: What do you think President Hollande is going to be asking Obama when he goes to Washington next week?

KOUCHNER: Start a military plenification (ph), a common ground for all the armies and mainly, of course, the American and the Russian.

AMANPOUR: Ground forces?

KOUCHNER: Not ground forces for the time being. We just have to support the ground forces, existing ground forces, that is to say Syrian

Kurds and Iraqi Kurds. And they are doing their job.

Last week, they conquer Sinjar, another town. And look at Kobani. We are not helping the Kurds, we, the French, unfortunately. The Americans

have taken Kobani and they took over the town. So the ground forces existed already. They exist.

And so we have to back them. That's absolutely key. And to give them a sort of moral, political, the world's support. They are Sunni people and

they are fighting against the murderers.

AMANPOUR: Bernard Kouchner, thank you very much, indeed.

KOUCHNER: Thank you.


AMANPOUR: So the strategy against ISIS abroad and at home -- and when we come back, revealing the mysterious terror suspect who authorities

believe was behind the night of attacks in Paris.

Just who is Abdelhamid Abaaoud? We try to find out -- next.





AMANPOUR: Welcome back. We're live from Paris tonight.

The fate of the suspected ringleader of the Paris terror attacks is still unknown at this hour. That's after police carried out raids on two

apartments in the Paris suburb of Saint-Denis, targeting Abdelhamid Abaaoud. That's the person they were after.

They say at least two terror suspects were killed; eight others were arrested in the predawn operation. Abaaoud is not in custody, says the

French prosecutor tonight, and right now investigators are running DNA tests to determine whether or not he was killed in the raid.

Now Abdelhamid Abaaoud is a Belgian citizen and an ISIS member who is believed to have spent time in Syria. Here's what we know so far about the

alleged mastermind of the Paris attacks.


AMANPOUR (voice-over): Gunfire and explosions mark the start of a dawn raid by French police, the latest developments in the investigation

into last week's terror attacks in Paris.

Security services were hunting Abdelhamid Abaaoud, the suspected ringleader behind the Paris atrocities.

Intelligence experts believe Abaaoud, a Belgian national, traveled to Syria in 2014 to join ISIS. There he forged close ties with his leader,

Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, and he's suspected to be the likely link between senior Islamic State figures and Islamic operatives in Europe and is said

to have been hunted by Western powers.

I asked U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry about that when he visited Paris this week.

AMANPOUR: Can you confirm for us news of one of the terrorists suspected in this attack, Abdelhamid Abaaoud?

There are reports the United States, France and other allies wanted to target him, sought to kill him in Syria. He is apparently a top-level

Belgian citizen ISIS member.

KERRY: I can confirm that he's an ISIS member and top level but I can't confirm whether he is targeted in it.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Earlier this year in January, Belgian commandos raided an ISIS safe house in the Belgian town of Verviers. The

ensuing 10-minute gunfight left two terrorists dead and another in custody.

Inside, commandos found weapons, fake travel documents and precursor chemicals to make TATP, the same explosion used in the Paris attacks.

According to security services, a 10-member terror cell led by Abaaoud was in the final stages of planning a major terrorist attack in Belgium.

Counterterrorism officials believe he was in contact with three of the fighters via cellphone calls which were traced to Greece.

In February this year, the ISIS online magazine, "Dabiq," claimed to conduct an interview with Abaaoud, in which he boasted about being able to

enter Europe and to return to Syria at will, saying, quote, "My name and picture were all over the news but I was able to stay in their homeland,

plan operations against them and leave safely."

Senior Belgian counter terrorism officials said it was possible that he was able to return to Syria from Greece. Hearing nothing from him after

he traveled to Syria, officials believe he had faked his own death so that he could easily travel to and from Europe to coordinate the Belgian plot, a

tactic they believe freed him to plan and execute the atrocities that left more than 100 dead and hundreds more injured in Paris.


AMANPOUR: And joining me now live here to discuss today's dramatic developments is French senator Nathalie Goulet.

Welcome back to the program. You have given us so much information and kept us abreast of what the government is doing, what the security is

doing and how you and the people are feeling.


AMANPOUR: As we showed that report and showed those pictures of Abaaoud, who is the most wanted man in the world right now, what is your

gut feeling when you see his face?

NATHALIE GOULET, FRENCH SENATOR: I think fucking bastard is appropriate, bastard, OK. It's terrible. We -- you know, we are so angry

and sad. We, you know, it's -- they're not human. It's terrible.

AMANPOUR: What is the feeling, you were in a session of the Senate today; the president talked to the mayors. You're in touch with, you know,

your electors, people.

How are they feeling now?

GOULET: Well, the atmosphere is very heavy. You know what? The TV channels, 24 hours a day, are making these things more and more heavy.

It's very difficult to get rid out of a -- watching, we're kept by the screen. And then the bit by bit, we discover something, no special

information. And even I would have -- I have no special information.

Really, I'm -- I'm really like every citizen here. But that looks more and more scary. And actually we have a very strong communication from

the government, focused and trained by the D.A.

AMANPOUR: So that's the prosecutor, Molins --


AMANPOUR: -- who is actually being given updates very, very regularly. So you're saying that all of this attention after a while gets

to be -- you know, gets to be painful for people.

GOULET: It's painful because you discover that how harmed they were and how ready they were and then you can speculate for any kind of thing.

And that creates this very heavy atmosphere.

AMANPOUR: Well, let's talk about speculation because obviously everybody wants to know about this man, who everybody says is the brains

behind the operation.

What do you know any more than we've been told about the raid?

Do you know what led them to conduct it?

Do you think it went some way to reassuring Parisians about the response?

GOULET: Well, I think that the amount of --

AMANPOUR: Does that mean arrests?

GOULET: Yes, it was a search.


GOULET: And then arrest and the way that everything is connected and conducted to -- I think that the people, the citizens, has to know that the

government, the minister of interior, the D.A. and everybody is very concerned. And then our police were very successful.

And so everything is ready. You know, the people are ready to understand that it's a very serious issue.

AMANPOUR: They certainly understand that. And you said you're going to be voting, because, even though President Hollande has asked for this

extended state of emergency, you, in parliament, the national assembly, the senate, have not yet voted, correct?

GOULET: Yes (INAUDIBLE) will be tomorrow and in the senate will be Friday. And we are not going to waste any time. We are voting in the same

terms in both chambers. So the things will be ready on Friday evening.

AMANPOUR: Three months?

GOULET: At least.

AMANPOUR: Do you think they will vote for longer?

GOULET: Maybe. We are ready. We are ready because we cannot stand those murderers to continue. We cannot let those people to continue to

scare the French population.

The republic has to react. And I think that we are really ready, despite some people have some hesitation about freedom and everything. But

now we are all very ready, very concerned. And we are all very concerned by the family and their loss. And it's very, very painful and


AMANPOUR: The stories, of course, I believe you and we are hearing so many sad stories from survivors who have lost, you know, dearest people.

And it's just tragic to hear it. The authorities say that they have now identified all 129 dead. But I mean, the funerals haven't even started



AMANPOUR: That's going to be a whole other level of shock. We were just talking with our veteran correspondent here about the psychological

trauma that everybody is under.

GOULET: Think of the children. And you send them to a concert or to movie, you know, you cannot expect them to die. You just expect them to

come back and be happy, having a good evening and fun with their friends. And all of a sudden -- especially you have people from the state, you have

young people who are students here.

Imagine their family in the state or whatever, you know, it's terrible. It's really -- I mean, painful and heartbreaking, as I told you

previously. As soon as you have children, you can imagine that. Of course, you cannot imagine but you just put yourself at the same place and

you pray God that these things will not happen again.

AMANPOUR: We certainly do. And we look --


AMANPOUR: -- and we will be watching as this manhunt and these investigations continue. Nathalie Goulet, thank you very much indeed.

Thank you. Thanks for joining us.

So as you can imagine, these are very, very stressful times and sometimes express their horror and hatred in strong terms.

So it is an emotional time here in France. And up next from here to the United States, where anti-refugee rhetoric, very ugly rhetoric as well,

is on the rise. We explore.

Plus, we go to the Greek island of Leros. What refugees there think of the Paris attacks and is there going to be a backlash. That's next.




AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the Place de la Republique in Paris. And we want to go now to Nick Paton Walsh, who joins us from inside Syria.

Nick, the French have stepped up their attacks. The Russians as well.

What are you seeing in there now?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SR. INTL. CORRESPONDENT: Again, inside Raqqah, Raqqa is Being Slaughtered Silently is reporting another night of

airstrikes. The number is not clear at this stage. Two targets, though, are. They're -- the first one was a fuel truck and the brick factory.

Now the former of those, Raqqa is Being Slaughtered Silently say, for the first time the attack on it has caused civilian casualties. Seven

dead, they say, eight injured. Now I should point out the previous nights they said there had been none. They are relatively reliable. We can't

corroborate this information independently and we don't know who is dropping what bomb on who.

As you say, you know the French are there now. The coalition. The Russians, too. Even at times the Syrian regime as well. So no shortage of

munitions being dropped.

Questions though about the targeting.

How have so many targets been chosen in such a remarkably short period of time? No doubt about the brevity. U.S. officials saying, look, these

things are vetted. They pop off at times out of opportunity. They are seized upon. You have to questions the dozens that appear to have been

approved in the past 72 hours alone.

One question we're having to sort of ask ourselves here, Christiane, is where does this lead?

The airstrikes can intensify but ISIS control that city. They keep civilians from leaving it. There will be civilians will be deeply

concerned about their own fate as they hear those explosions land night after night after night.

Where does it go from now militarily? Well, there are no obvious options on the ground here but there are a lot of Kurds to the north of

that city. They have been there for a while. Many have been thinking at some point they might try and move towards that large urban sprawl.

It seems farfetched because of the numbers, because of the poor level of weaponry that they have. They haven't got the heavy weapons they need.

But still all the same we hear from people we talk to here, the notion of that being a possibility ever louder. No sense of foreign assistance at

that stage. But a sense that potentially, they think they can have a go at Raqqah, no matter how limited their success there may be -- Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Nick, and everybody is --


AMANPOUR: -- waiting to see whether that happens. Everybody putting a lot of faith in presumably stepped-up support and ammunition to the Kurds

and other local ground forces there. Raqqah, obviously, a very important target when it comes to rolling back ISIS.

Thank you, Nick Paton Walsh.

And after Friday's attack, there has been as well an ugly rise in anti-refugee rhetoric here and around Europe and in the United States. But

today, the French president says that this country cannot abandon its basic values.


FRANCOIS HOLLANDE, PRESIDENT OF FRANCE (through translator): France sovereignly has agreed to take part of the solidarity as regards to these

refugees in Europe; 30,000 will be received in the next two years. Before they come into French territory, we must ensure there is no risk for our



AMANPOUR: So the refugee issue, as we said, has caused quite a debate in the United States. CIA chief John Brennan said that today he wants

stricter screening, while new U.S. Speaker of the House Paul Ryan is calling for a pause in the relocation program.


REP. PAUL RYAN (R), HOUSE SPEAKER: Our nation has always been welcoming but we cannot let terrorists take advantage of our compassion.

This is a moment where it's better to be safe than to be sorry.


AMANPOUR: So dozens of U.S. governors are saying they don't want refugees coming into their state. They don't actually have the power to

stop it. And President Barack Obama says slamming the doors on them would be a betrayal of American values.

Now, equally, there are many governors in the U.S. and many mayors who are saying, of course, they will be accepting the refugees who are

designated come to the United States -- to their states, anyway, and to their cities and towns.

One of Friday's attackers, as we reported earlier this week, was carrying a passport which had been processed in Leros, Greece. Arwa Damon

is there and she reports on the still desperate refugees and the backlash they fear is coming.


ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is the transit camp on the small Greek island of Leros, population 8,000. A

passport found next to one of the Paris suicide bombers was traced back to here, the individual said to have transited, according to Greek

authorities, through here on October 3rd.

And the mayor of Leros says that even before the attacks happened in Paris, he had been asking for additional support.

MAYOR OF LEROS: Somebody arrive, they are going to the coast guard first. And they say, I am from Syria or from Iraq or some other country.

But nobody can know if it is truth.

DAMON: They get fingerprinted?


DAMON: But then is there a database?

Like you take their fingerprints but you can't check their past, can you?


DAMON: You can't check and see if they have a criminal record?

MAYOR: No, no, no, they can't check. Must be more people here with police and of course.

DAMON: Those who are here right now have already been fingerprinted and processed. Some are waiting for transportation to the mainland, others

to receive their refugee paperwork.

And everyone who we have been speaking to is very aware of the violence that took place in Paris. They say that that is exactly the kind

of violence that they fled; almost all of them here are from Syria and Iraq. And, for them, the violence that France has been experiencing is a

daily reoccurrence. And they fled because they simply could not take it, could not risk it anymore.

And they are also very aware of the reality that, over the last few months, even prior to the Paris attacks, Europe has been shutting down its

borders. Their very aware of the tensions, the pre-existing tensions that are already there. And many of them are afraid that they are going to end

up once again paying the price for violence over which they have no influence, no control and violence that they most certainly do not support.

It is violence that they also are running away from -- Arwa Damon, CNN, Leros, Greece.


AMANPOUR: And coming up next, we're going to take a closer look at the violence and the radicalization that's been haunting inner city ghettos

here for decades. That's next.





AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program, live from Paris on a day of extraordinary raids in the suburb of Saint-Denis that netted terrorists and

netted arrests.

Once again, of course, these attacks reopen the question of this country's uneasy relationship with its huge Muslim population. It's the

biggest in Europe. Never mind that the attackers are usually common criminals who have then been radicalized and then graduate on to become


Never mind that many Muslims are among the dead and, also, many Muslims among the many, many who rush to give help and refuge to the


This complex relationship will have to be addressed after festering for decades, as I found, reporting on the growing violence and

radicalization in the Paris ghettos more than 10 years ago.


AMANPOUR (voice-over): When people talk about ghettos in France, they're talking about these projects, high-rises which have been built far

away from the city center to house African and Arab immigrants.

Just saying you live in this neighborhood is enough to get your job application thrown in the garbage. And the unemployment amongst young

people is four times the national average.

With little hope of making it outside the projects, many of these young men try to dominate their own neighborhoods, resorting to violence,

especially against young women.

Nadir Dudan (ph) grew up in the same projects. Now he works as a youth counselor, trying to encourage more normal relations between the boys

and girls.

This relationship between boys and girls, this unnatural state of affairs, it's like being in some fundamentalist country.


AMANPOUR: This is France. It's not just France, it's Paris.

DUDAN (PH): No, no, look, here, it's not France here.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): What really scares Nadir (ph) is that Islamic fundamentalists are taking advantage of these frustrations.

DUDAN (PH): Like me, I am not feeling as French as like Jacques or as Pierre.

AMANPOUR: As being Nadir (ph), you're not French.

DUDAN (PH): It's tough. What the fundamentalists are saying to the young kids, we will help you find a job, we will help you to be proud of

who you are.

You know?

But while it's a big successor.

AMANPOUR: So the societies are sort of separating.

DUDAN (PH): Yes.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): The fundamentalist voices are growing stronger. They are now targeting the disaffected youth in the ghettos.

Many of the mosques there are filled with fundamentalist preaching.

AMANPOUR: There seems to be so much violence in the ghettos, in the slums, the project areas where most of the immigrants have to live.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not because we're Arab or we're delinquents. But it's because we're very poor and we live in very bad conditions that we

are more in delinquent, more in drugs, more in problems.


AMANPOUR: Even today, it's really quite astounding to see that report from more than 10 years ago. And the situation still is very similar.

Back again with senior international correspondent, Jim Bittermann, you know this better than I do.

BITTERMANN: Amazingly prescient, I mean, it's exactly what's going on today. There have been a few changes. When he talks about the radical

mosques, they've done a fair amount to crack down on radical imams. They've expelled some of them. There's no doubt in my mind that it still

goes on.

AMANPOUR: And, again, that was 10 years ago, actually 11 years ago. This has been going on for decades.


AMANPOUR: And there's no sense that there is a real desire or willingness to start getting to grips with this, which is not to excuse

terrorism, of course, but eventually the fundamental social fabric is going to have to be re-examined.

BITTERMANN: You remember that after the riots in the cities here and they were all over the country and they said, we're going to do something.

AMANPOUR: That was in 2005, just a year after this.

BITTERMANN: And they -- right. They said they were going to do something about that. We're going to improve things. We're going to get

jobs for the young people and all the rest.


BITTERMANN: And I would say it probably hasn't changed at all. There are some things -- some specific things that have changed, though.

AMANPOUR: And at the same time, at the same time, you've got much, much higher explosion of extremist, far right, anti-immigrant groups, anti-

Muslim groups like the National Front.

BITTERMANN: Yes. And back then they weren't actively recruiting. There wasn't an ISIS that actively recruit. Now you've got this force out

in the Middle East and they're here recruiting.

AMANPOUR: It is extraordinary, not just for what it says about their recruitibility but also what it says for, I don't know, any political

ability to actually change the situation, when you see how the government is being outflanked on its extreme right.

BITTERMANN: Yes. And the rise of the Right is something we're going to be doing stories on in the next couple of days.

AMANPOUR: Indeed. Elections coming up next month. Jim Bittermann, thank you so much.

And finally tonight, imagine a world where flowers and candlelight, like that behind me, beat the bullets and the guns. In an interview that's

gone viral this week and that we want to play because it is just extraordinary no matter how many times you see this video, the Canal+ "Le

Petit Journal," captured the Parisian spirit of survival. They focused on one father and son, who they just happened to lock onto.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): Bad guys are not very nice. And we have to be really careful because we have to change houses.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): Oh, no, don't worry. We don't have to move out. France is our home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): But there's bad guys, Daddy..."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): Yes, but there's bad guys everywhere.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): They have guns. They can shoot us because they're really, really mean, Daddy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): It's OK. They might have guns but we have flowers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): But flowers don't do anything. They're for -- they're for -- they're for...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): Of course they do. Look, everyone is putting flowers. It's to fight against guns.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): It's to protect?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): Exactly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): And the candles, too?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): It's to remember the people who are gone yesterday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): The flowers and the candles are here to protect us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): Yes.


AMANPOUR: Father and son, helping each other through. It is extraordinary, no matter how many times you see it, you just can't see it


Thank you for joining us. We're in Paris tonight for a special edition of this program. And, remember, you can always see all our

programs online and please follow me on Facebook and Twitter. And the news continues.