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Seeking the Motive for San Bernardino Shootings; Shooteres Had Massive Cache of Ammunition and Pipe Bombs. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired December 3, 2015 - 22:00   ET


[22:00:00] ANDERSON COOPER, AC360 SHOW HOST: Larry Kaufman, Harry Bowman, Yvette Velasco, Sierra Clayborn, Robert Adams, Nicholas Thalasinos, Tin Nguyen, Juan Espinoza, Damien Meins, and Michael Wetzel. The youngest who died who was 26 years old, the oldest was 60 years old.

I wish we have photos of them to show you, but hopefully in the days ahead we will. All but two, were San Bernardino County employees. We'll be telling you a lot more about them in the days and the weeks ahead.

That's it for us. We appreciate you joining us. Thanks very much for watching. Right now CNN Tonight with Don Lemon.

DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT SHOW HOST: Yes. It's awful, Anderson, that we have to meet each other over satellite for the sad stories like this. And you were speaking of the victims, I'm going to talk to you about them in just a moment. But I just want to tell our viewers that it's at the top of the hour. It's 10 p.m. here on the East Coast, 7 p.m. in San Bernardino.

This is CNN Tonight. I am Don Lemon.

And, Anderson, you are at that candle light vigil that's paying tribute of yesterdays shooting. Is the community still on edge where you are?

COOPER: You know, I think there is a lot of mixed emotions. I mean, there is a lot of sadness here, there is obviously a lot of security here. They've been very cautious about any kind of large gathering like this. And there is a lot of anger and just, but a lot of broken hearts.

And I think people are trying to, you know, trying to figure out what happened, trying to see, are there other people who may have been involved in this. And I think the fact that they don't know fully what the motive in this was, is particularly troubling to people. And I think a lot of people are very eager to hear what it was to try to get their mind wrapped around exactly what happened yesterday.

LEMON: If you can even do that. You know, you mentioned you just read off the name of the victims there. And our Gary Tuchman spoke to Jennifer Thalasinos, the widow of one of the victims. What does she tell Gary? COOPER: She was talking about her husband, who was killed and how his

feelings toward -- toward Muslims and that he actually worked with one of the killers. She didn't know whether they had had any kind of conflict over religion but here's what she told Gary.


GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You have been open about this is your soldier about what he has said about Muslims in the past.


TUCHMAN: What has he said?

THALASINOS: Yes, he's just -- he is very -- he is very upset about what ISIS has been doing and the radicalized Muslims, Al Qaeda, the whole situation. He's upset about the fact that the majority of the Muslims, you know, it's like they won't come out and do something about it. It's like, so...

TUCHMAN: So, do you think -- do you think he talked to Farook about that?

THALASINOS: He might have.

TUCHMAN: And do you have any knowledge at all from anyone you talked to if what happened at the function yesterday with Farook?

THALASINOS: No. I just, I know that supposedly there was an argument and very easily could have been an argument with my husband. I wouldn't be surprised.


COOPER: We should point out, Don, we do not know at this point what that argument was about. And obviously that is something investigators want to find out as well.

LEMON: Hey, Anderson, Kyung has been on your show, she is standing by there. She's at the same place where you are. Let's bring her in and talk to her.

Kyung, you know, Lieutenant Mike Madden is the first responder who just spoke at the press conference. It's very interesting we were transfixed by he was saying, very genuine individual. One of the first on the scene. What did you pick up from that -- from that press conference?

KYUNG LAH, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's really what he saw and his amount of bravery that, he, and the other officers displayed. He was, as you mentioned, Don, one of the first officers to arrive. He, and three other officers ran into the building.

They were responding, believing that the suspects, these killers were still inside and then he described what can only be expressed as a horrific scene. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE MADDEN, SAN BERNARDINO POLICE DEPARTMENT OFFICER: It was unspeakable. The carnage that we were seeing, the number of people who were injured and unfortunately, already dead. And that pure panic on the face of those individuals that were still in need -- and needing to be safe. We asked -- we got as many people out as quickly as we could.


LAH: And he says that it was so loud when he was in there that he could see all the people who were wounded. He could hear the moaning and the crying. There were fire alarms going off, Don. And the other thing that really struck me is he said that you could still smell gun powder in the air.

LEMON: This is not the only assessment of what it was like inside of that building. We're getting more accounts, aren't we?

LAH: We're getting a bit more of picture of what was happening inside that room from the people who were inside that place and just exited the room or who had actually seen what happened inside. It was a Christmas party. It was one of those work meetings, work meetings that turns into a luncheon. There were about 75 to 80 people inside.

[22:04:58] This is Department of Public Health. These are the people who go out and check swimming pools and make sure that restaurants are maintaining good order.

And he says that the number of people we spoke with basically said what was happening inside that room was it was a festive time. Things were looking up that they were very excited to celebrate the end of the year and then suddenly it turned when the gunfire erupted, Don.

LEMON: Syed Farook, criminal background, he didn't have one, did he?

LAH: No. We could not find anything on his background. And that's really what's perplexing as well. Law enforcement, how are they supposed to find these suspects if there is no sign. And that's what they have to drill down here.

LEMON: And what about his family? Are you learning anything about them?

LAH: The only thing that we could see is there is any signal of violence in his background is how he grew up. There are quite a few court document that we were able to get a hold of and on what kind of family he came from.

His mother did divorce her husband in 2008, and in those documents she talks about a very abusive husband. He was someone who she described in the court documents as being mentally unstable, mentally ill, someone who talked about suicide daily. She told the court she says that he would beat her. That he threw a television on her and that her children witnessed all of this. LEMON: My goodness. All right, Kyung. Thank you very much. Stand by.

Pamela Brown joins us now. Pamela you have some breaking news tonight. I understand about evidence recovered. Tell us what you have.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. We learned that two cell phones were damaged and they were found in a garbage can at one of the crime scenes that investigators were able to recover, and now those phones will now be taken to Quantico in Virginia for the FBI to look through and trying to get some of the content from that.

We've also learned that the hard drive belonging to the couple's computer is nowhere to be found. So, the FBI has subpoenaed to the big providers to get to more information as to the content on those electronics.

And the people I've been speaking to been involved in this investigation says that will be key and will hopefully shed more light on what a motive is. Because at this point I'm being told that there is no clear-cut motive. This could be a case of terrorism.

But it also could just be a case of disgruntled employee. A workplace dispute or it could a blend of the both. Right now, officials trying to get a better idea from the information retrieved from those electronics. And also in talking to family members who have been very cooperative and who say that there was nothing to them that stood out about the couple in terms of them being extremists, Don.

LEMON: Yes. Interesting. So, Syed Rizwan Farook, that was his name. He wasn't on any watch lists. Kyung Lah says it doesn't appear that he had any criminal, type of criminal record. What do we know about people he was communicating with, and I think it was via the internet or just communicating with what we heard from officials, correct?

BROWN: It was telephonically he had been in touch with few individuals, who, the FBI had been investigating. They were international terrorism subjects, but I was told that they were not high priorities. These are people that the FBI knew about that they suspected could be tied to international terrorism.

But none of them had ever been arrested. I was told that these were tenuous connections, soft connections over the course of the last several years. And there is nothing that they found so far to indicate there were recent communications with these individuals around the time of the attack.

Now if there were, that could be key. But at this point, investigators aren't putting too much weight on that. But again it is still early, Don.

LEMON: And also overseas trips, overseas trips that he took?

BROWN: That's right. We have learned that his last recorded trip was to Saudi Arabia in the summer of 2014. He went for the Hajj, he was there for nine days. Officials believed that is where he met his wife who later came to the U.S. on a fiance visa and then was able to get a green card from there and become a lawful permanent resident.

But not a lot is known at this stage about what exactly happened there. The trip alone has not raised red flags, but officials are in touch with Saudi Arabian authorities to see what else happened.

If there were something that they missed those communications are underway right now. And of course they want to learn more about it. But again, nothing jumping out at this stage to indicate a clear-cut motive. Don.

LEMON: Pamela Brown, I appreciate your reporting. Stand by. I want to get to Poppy Harlow now. Poppy, inside of that vigil. Poppy, you have been there, you have been witnessing it. I heard you say just moments ago, that you heard some of the most beautiful music being played, a beautiful song. What are people saying, how are they doing?

POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It really is the most beautiful music. I mean, the stunningly gorgeous acapella group of teenagers got up and sang. And it's the first, Don, that I have the chance since I arrive here to sit back and take it all in and it broke my heart.

[22:09:58] The other song here, "May you find comfort here" and they opened with a prayer tonight saying "We are challenged but we are not hopeless." The mayor talking about his conversation this morning with President Obama.

Each and one of these people, thousands here tonight have their own story as to why they're here. Gustavo told me, he doesn't know anyone who was killed but he is angry and he said to me, it doesn't seem to have any logic. So, perhaps he's here to try to find some answers.

Christina is here because she lost two of her friends in the shooting. She was in the building next door. A third friend was shot in the head. One of those friends who died, a father of six children, Don. Mike Wertzel. Six children completely senseless, no answers. And frankly, where else are they going to do? At least they're here together tonight.

LEMON: It is just mind boggling. There are a number of children, you mentioned his six children, but a number of children there...


LEMON: ... at the vigil tonight. How do they explain what happened to these kids?

HARLOW: I think that's what surprised me most walking in here. I see a mother to my left rocking her baby in a stroller. I was just with a mother down here of five children, including with a 4-year old. And I said, why did you bring them, how do you tell them about this?

And she frankly, this is a difficult world. I can't shield them from the news. So, they watch with me and they saw the worst of it yesterday. Today, is sort of the best of it, right? If you think about bringing a community together. She doesn't have the answers and they have a lot of questions, of course, kids look up at their parents and they ask these innocent questions and parents want to have answers.

I think tonight, she hopes she'll get some of the answers about the best of their community. She also said to me, Don, I take them to church a lot because there is only so much in this world that I can protect them from. And I think that's difficult for all of us to hear but that is the reality today.

LEMON: People need faith at this moment. Thank you, Poppy. I appreciate that. When we come right back, we know what the killers did, but we still don't know why. And the answers to this question could change everything. Was this terrorism?


LEMON: We're learning much more tonight about America's deadliest mass shooting since Sandy Hook. But what we still don't know if it was terrorism.

Joining me now is CNN's terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank, and Michael Weiss, the co-author of "ISIS Inside the Army of Terror." OK. Paul, I want to start with you because I understand you have some breaking news tonight about ISIS in Europe. What are your sources telling you?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Hi, Don. This comes from a senior European counterterrorism official and European security agencies have received intelligence which indicates that ISIS is aiming to hit the United Kingdom next, that British ISIS operatives in Syria and Iraq have been tasked by the terrorist organization to return home to the U.K. to launch attacks.

All of this concern compounded by that vote in the House of Commons in the U.K. yesterday, where Britain authorized, was authorize to launch air strikes against ISIS in Syria. And it also follows on from the arrest last month of a British ISIS operative in Istanbul.

And Turkish officials telling CNN he was on the way back to Europe with attack orders from ISIS. A lot of concern tonight about the terrorist threats to the U.K. given all those British extremists that have gone over to Syria and Iraq, more than 700 and more than 350 returned back to the U.K., Don.

LEMON: Yes. Paris was the lead story on this network and others where much of the last couple of weeks. And now we have turned to this in San Bernardino. But I have to ask you, what is the latest on the hunt for Salah Abdeslam? Has it gone cold?

CRUICKSHANK: Absolutely right, Don. That the trail has gone cold. And in fact, I'm told by a senior official that it went cold the day after the attacks when Salah Abdeslam was dropped by a friend in a Brussels District of Laeken on that Saturday after the attacks.

They haven't had any information whatsoever on his whereabouts since then, the official saying that they now believed that chickened out essentially of his suicide bombing in Paris. He panicked. And he called up these contacts in Brussels, these friends in a state of high anxiety asking them to come pick him up in Paris and take him all the way back to Belgium.

The same official saying they now believe that he may be a persona non grata in ISIS. They may not welcome him back to the full because he aborted that final part of his mission, Don.

LEMON: Michael, we have heard that the President said today that, you know, maybe it was a hybrid of, you know, workplace violence or terrorism or what have you. They haven't ruled anything out that the, you know, they had been radicalized or the possibility that they had been radicalized. What do you think?

MICHAEL WEISS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. I mean, this is a complicated one, isn't it? He picked a target that he had known quite intimately. He had just attended this party, there was some kind of dispute, there had confrontation. He went home, he got all his gear which indicates, by the way, as the authorities have said, look, he wasn't -- it was clear he was planning something.


WEISS: You don't have tactical vests, assault rifles and then pipe bombs...

LEMON: Right. Pipe bombs.

WEISS: ... because you just snap one day. I mean, you know, so the question is, was he planning something imminently and then this was the trigger, or what it a combination? I mean, human beings can be complicated creatures.

It's very possible and it seems indeed likely that he was radicalized remotely.

The New York Times reported this evening that he had been in touch with guys from al-Shabaab and Nusra Front, which is the Al Qaeda affiliate in Syria.

Now I say that with the caveat that the people who he's in touch with were considered so low bar that eventually the FBI kind of gave up on investigating it further. So, if he was radicalized I think it was sort of a slow boil.

LEMON: So, if he was radicalized and all signs point to -- why not just say it's terror. I mean, any time you kill 14 people that's terrorizing a community, terrorizing and families.

WEISS: Yes. I'm all for carrying out an investigation not jumping the gun. I hate to use that phrase, but I mean, honestly. You know, look, ISIS they celebrated the attack. They didn't take credit for it.


WEISS: Somebody ask me today why they didn't just take credit for it?


LEMON: If it's ISIS inspired will -- they may never take credit for it because it wasn't directed.

WEISS: Precisely. The way that ISIS is trying to do things, there are two methods, right? As Paul points out, they are sending operatives back from Raqqah, you know, especially if they come from Europe to plot and perpetrate the attacks such as the one that happened in Paris.

[22:19:55] The other method is, I mean, you might almost call it like a crowd sourcing Jihad. You know, just stay where you are, you don't have to come here, you don't have to meet any of our people. Here are our manuals, this is the way you build bombs, this is the way can obtain guns in a country like the United States.

Go shoot up a school. Go shoot up a, you know, a civic center or whatever. And then when you do it and we find out that you were inspired by us we'll just take credit for it. Because it's the global brand.

The fact, by the way, that he also smashed the cell phones and then he's tried to erase stuff from his hard drive, again, he's trying to cover up some kind of digital trail that probably does lead back to Jihad.

LEMON: Paul, we thought that the soft targets when we were talking about Paris and others, the restaurants, you know, venues that are easy to get into. This is a new soft target just wherever you are, and if you can create havoc or terror, that's where you do it?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, I think a lot of people are asking the question, why didn't they go and shoot up...


LEMON: A ball game or theater or something like that.

CRUICKSHANK: A ball game like you say...

LEMON: A mall.

CRUICKSHANK: Somewhere where you have a lot more people. I mean, with all the weapons and bombs they have, they could have killed a lot of people. This could have been far worse which begs the question, perhaps they were planning something at some point, but we know there was an altercation at this holiday party.

And maybe they brought all this plans or had changed the plans and launched the attack there instead. I think that's a real possibility. And in fact, over the last year or so, we have seen these sort of mixed motive attacks where you have both the sort of workplace anger and also a terrorist motive.

We saw that in Oklahoma in September of 2014, where an extremist, Alton Nolen, a convert to Islam got fired from his job at a processing -- food processing center and then went and beheaded one of his female co-workers. He had Bin Laden on his Facebook, beheadings on his Facebook. We also

saw a case in France in June, Yassin Salhi, a fan of ISIS, also he was angry with his boss. He was in a trucking delivery service and he beheaded his boss, strung his -- decapitated the head of his boss up on a fence of chemical plant and sent a selfie to ISIS in Syria so they could circulate it.

So, we have seen these kinds of dual motivations before.

LEMON: Go ahead, Michael.

WEISS: Well, you know, another complicating factor to these stories. It wasn't just one guy. This is the Bonnie and Clyde of terrorism, right?

LEMON: Are you surprised there is a woman involved?

WEISS: No. I'm not surprised that a woman involved. I'm surprised that if there was this spontaneous sort of confrontation or skirmish, he goes home and says, all right, honey, you know, I've decided let's cancel doing this soccer stadium or the, you know, the court house, and let's go blow up my office.

And she says, OK, and they deposit the small infant child with the grandparent and they go. So, it seems odd, doesn't it? I mean, there seems to have been some measure of premeditation for this particular target.

Another point, if they're looking for soft targets and we know that they are, that was the Paris attacks, the softest of soft targets are places that you know, places you have access to. And obviously he was familiar with the internal sort of layout of this building. So, this could have been the plan all along. We just don't know yet.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, Michael. Thank you, Paul. I appreciate it. We'll see you soon.

When we come right back, horror and heart break. I'm going to talk to the man who didn't know for 22 hours whether his boyfriend had survived this terrible attack.


LEMON: Tonight the victims of the San Bernardino massacre are not just statistics. We know their names, their husbands and wives, their sons and daughters, their cousins, neighbors, friends, co-workers.

Daniel Kaufman is among them and his boyfriend Ryan Reyes joins me now. How are you holding up?



REYES: Still kind of surreal and kind of numb at the moment. LEMON: Yes. You haven't got much sleep, have you?

REYES: No. Not really. I probably finally fell asleep via sleeping pills, probably about 1.30 this morning, and then my phone started going off at 3 o'clock in the morning. So, it's just been off and on all day and trying to catch sleep whenever I can.

LEMON: And that's what happened the first -- when it first happened, you didn't hear from him, right? And then finally -- I'll go through that later. But finally after hours and hours, you took a handful of sleeping pills and you got to sleep and then you woke up and heard the terrible news, correct?

REYES: Correct. Correct.

LEMON: So, tell me about Daniel and his job at this regional center.

REYES: Basically, what Daniel did was there was a program that the IRC had through another similar functioning type place called Pathways. So, the program was actually through Pathways but funded by the IRC. And it was basically a job training program.

So, Daniel's job was kind of like a job trainer to the client that he had. He was responsible for teaching him how to make the drinks, bring up sales, handle -- handle customer service stuff and just help him keep them on track while he was doing that type of thing.

LEMON: So, it sounds like admirable work, a noble profession he was trying to help developmentally disabled adult, he become independent by teaching them job skills. And people keep saying, you know, this is maybe it's a, you know, workplace anger or what have you, a workplace related. But, you know, he wasn't involved with this guy. And he just happened to become a victim.

REYES: Yes. Exactly. Daniel just happened to work inside the IRC building from what I understand. It was not an IRC event and the people that were involved with, perpetrating the shooting were not involved with the IRC in any way. It was just they happened to be in the conference center that day.

LEMON: Would -- and there is this a whole back and forth. I'm not sure you're even focused on it. But and maybe, you know, I'm sure you're just focused on the loss of your partner.

[22:30:03] But this whole focus about whether it's workplace violence whether it's terrorism, what do you think of that at this point?

REYES: At this point, when it comes to my feelings on it, and I know Daniel feels the same way as I do, when it comes to the extremist aspect we don't condone that on any end.

But we also don't think that people should live in fear of all people of those religions or cultures because they didn't have anything to do with it. You know, it's only these extremists. So, as far as my opinion on it, I mean, they're doing what they believe in, I guess. I can't condone that, obviously. But, yes, that one's a tough one, sorry.

LEMON: Yes, no. Quite understandable. So, the last 24 hours. You and Daniel were texting, you said all morning yesterday and then what happened?

REYES: Yes. Basically what happened was I took him to work. I left there at about 7 when he starts...


LEMON: And by the way, he didn't get a driver's license, he said because he wanted you to take him to work because he liked the time -- spending the time with you.

REYES: Correct.

LEMON: That is an excuse for not getting a driver's license. Yes.

REYES: Correct. So, that is one of his excuses for not learning how to drive. There were other reasons, but he always was like to say, he was like, no, because I never get to see you because, you know, you take me to work and you take me home.

I was, you know, we live 10 minutes from each other and we still see each other but he was like, no, no, no. I like it this way. So, he always insisted on that.

LEMON: So, take us through the 24 hours.

REYES: OK. I had taken him to work and then I went home. And he texted me like he usually would like on his breaks or, you know, on his lunch or whatever. And sometimes he will send me pictures or sometimes we'll actually have conversations.

This time he happened to be sending me some pictures and I responded with, you know, a little joke picture of my own. And then I started to get ready for my doctor's appointment. So, I was supposed to have a doctor's appointment yesterday.

I got out of the shower and it was exactly 12 noon at this point and my sister text messaged me and said "Ryan, does Daniel work at the regional center in San Bernardino because there's something on the news about there being a shooting?"

And so, I immediately turned on the news and immediately tried to call Daniel, tried to text Daniel. I was getting no response whatsoever from him. So, I called Pathways, since that's the people he actually works for and figured they might know something about it.

They had heard from the client, Lewis, that Daniel was apparently on his lunch when it had begun, which had me even more worried because Daniel was a smoker and he spends his lunch at the -- at the building and he would have just been outside smoking.

LEMON: So, you called around. As I understand you called around to a bunch of different hospitals, you got nothing and then you heard that he was in surgery and was fine. And as it turns out, you eventually went to bed, you said after taking a whole bunch of sleeping pills to get you to bed, while after midnight and you woke up to the phone call and got this news.

But I want you to tell me how you learned this terrible news. Because this is a photograph that we're going to put up for our viewers in the L.A. Times that is showing right now when you got the heartbreaking news.

REYES: Yes, they happened to be there finishing up with me when I got the telephone call from Daniel's aunt that the coroner's office was there. And she let me know that he was positively identified at the scene.

And they asked if, you know, I wanted to speak to the coroner and I said, yes. But they hadn't said it, you know, to me. And I immediately broke down. And went into hysterics. And so, they were just really bad terminology, but they just happened to be there at the right time to be able to catch that.

Because he was literally just getting ready to read what he had in the article and he was going to be like, OK, let me know when you know anything else and that's when his aunt called when we were in the middle of that.

LEMON: So, Ryan, you know, we -- this is horrible. And we're in this new time now where we're just getting used to same-sex marriage that is legal now. Love is love. What do you want people to know about Daniel and your relationship?

REYES: Well, what is it that you wanted to know about your relationship?

[22:34:58] LEMON: No. What do you want -- what do you want people to know about, what we should know about Daniel that love is love that when it's a loss it doesn't matter if it's same-sex or what have you.

REYES: OK. I can tell you right now that the fact that Daniel was gay, was never an issue with anyone because Daniel was one of those people that everybody loved. He -- I know it's cliche to say that, you know, people's smiles could light up a room, but this was really true about Daniel.

He worked the Renaissance Pleasure Fair for 16 plus years and actually got me involved with it as well. And there, everybody at the Renaissance Fair that works at knows him as the person that always has a smile that's going through the parades, jumping around and twirling his flag and singing and having a good time.

And there is actually other the patrons that come to see us as a Renaissance Fair as well as other participants that work it, that's like the highlight of their day is seeing Daniel go through in the parade with, you know, just being vibrant and full of life.

And I mean, the man could have a 30-minute conversation with the cashier at the grocery store about his cats and I would literally have to pull him away and be like, OK, they're working and there's a line forming.

And, yes, just one of those people that everybody loved. Got along with everybody. The life of the party, always funny. Always creative.

LEMON: Well, I know it's a big loss for you and I don't understand and I don't even know how you're standing right now. But I appreciate you coming on talking about your love for Daniel and talking about Daniel. We wish you the very best. Thank you so much.

REYES: Thank you.

LEMON: Coming up, what was the motive for the latest mass shooting and how do we guard against attacks like these?


LEMON: Officials reporting tonight that the killers had a massive cache of ammunition and pipe bombs in their homes. What else were they planning? That's a question.

Let's talk about it now with Bernard Kerik, the former New York City police commissioner, Art Roderick, he's a former assistant director of the U.S. Marshals Office, Anthony May, a retired ATF Explosives Enforcement Officer, and criminologist Casey Jordan.

Good evening to all of you. Thank you for some of you back from yesterday evening. I want to talk to you about this whether this was homegrown terror, workplace violence, or some sort of hybrid. Why the consternation, why the consternation, Bernard Kerik?

BERNARD KERIK, FORMER NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: Listen, I'm beyond workplace violence. This is terrorism. You know, I know people are having a hard time coming to that conclusion. I'm not having a hard time at all.

You have a husband and wife team who are Muslim, a devout Muslim, according to family members, friends. You have thousands of rounds of ammunition. At least 15 pipe bombs. Combat gear. I personally don't think that their original target was this party.

I think they went operational as a result of something that happened there. But I think there was a bigger target possibly that they were looking at and it was only a matter of time before they were going to go there.

LEMON: You know, Art Roderick, I do -- I do have to say that officials who are telling CNN that it appears that they were radicalized, that they may have been radicalized.

ART REDERICK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I mean, I -- this -- whatever box it fits in. And I think this is the problem that we're running into, they want to stick it in a particular box. The bottom line here is they used terrorist tactics when they did this heinous crime.

And Bernie just ran through the whole -- the whole gamut of exactly what they did. But that's the bottom line. They used terrorist tactics that we see used all over the world in different terrorist hits. Now the fact that they were fully armed and loaded and ready to go to another location is something a little different.

I mean, we have planning scenarios that we've done in active shooting situations. But we've really got to start looking at two issues. Number one, multiple targets being hit at the same time, or the individuals coming back after a period of time and hitting the same target while first responders are getting there.

LEMON: Yes. Casey, you have been saying all along you don't believe it was terrorism.

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: No, I've saying it can be a mash up between the two. The tactical evidence does indicate terrorism, but we've never seen the terrorists go to their workplace and kill their colleagues.

The big question mark, which is why you can come to the conclusion that it's terrorism just based on the tactics. But we still don't know the motive.


LEMON: So, what's the difference?

JORDAN: So, it's premature to come to that conclusion. We don't know what happened at that party. I totally buy that notion that they could have been planning something else but why go to the party.

LEMON: Well, I mean, obviously, they were planning something else. I mean, obviously, they were planning something because when you look -- OK.


JORDAN: I think it could have been premature.

LEMON: So, OK. They have 12 pipe bombs or IED type devices.

JORDAN: It's fascinating.

LEMON: One hundred -- hundreds of tools of other materials that possibly construct IEDs and pipe bombs, 200 .99 rounds in the house, 2500 plus .223 rounds at the house. Several hundred .22 long rifle rounds in the house, and on and on and on and they had the 2,000 .9 millimeters, sorry.

JORDAN: Enough to do so much more carnage and yet they weren't successful in so much more carnage. Where is their training? Where is their guidance for some political ideology?

I get the idea that it's consistent tactically. But the psychology of why they did the way they did it is remains a mystery. Now what's fascinating is that they left, they tried to go home, they dropped off their baby. I mean, you don't see this. And you -- we had people, the millers just last year who went killed

those cops in Las Vegas and went on a spree. Because extremist thinking can be manifested in a number of ways. They can be white supremacist like Dylan Roof as we've seen, it could be misogyny like Elliot Rodger. It can manifest in a number of ways. How did they get this way? That should be the question.

[22:44:59] LEMON: Anthony, when you see this weapons cache that I mentioned here, what do you think?

ANTHONY MAY, RETIRED ATF EXPLOSIVES ENFORCEMENT OFFICER: Well I'm going to have to disagree with the last statements that were made. You know, look, all those items that were collected either they had a big plot in mind, a terrorism-type event, you know, the only other time we see stuff like this is with drug dealers, you know, selling pipe bombs to make money to buy drugs which is not the indication here.

These devices and actually I'm seeing the pictures for the first time, and I find it rather amusing especially the one that has the yellow -- I'm assuming it's the toy remote controlled car attached to the pipe bombs. It tells me right off the bat these people didn't really have the expertise that they needed because that's very amateuristic (ph). And now I know why it didn't work because that's not how you rig the car up.

It's the servos that you use and not the car itself. But I'm going to tell you straight up that the -- it's not unusual throughout this country to see large quantities of pipe bombs. We see that all the time, usually with you know, gangs, drug members, stuff like that.

However, they never, you know, go off, do a shooting, come back to the location to what I believe possibly to do reload to go off and do something else, and that's when they were interrupted by the law -- by the officer that was at the residence. So, I'm going to have agree with Bernie who said that, you know, this was terrorism. There is no doubt that's what this plan was.

LEMON: I want to get your reaction to one of the first officers on the scene when we come right back.


LEMON: Back now with my panel of experts. Bernard Kerik, Art Roderick, Anthony May, and Casey Jordan.

I want to play this for you. This is Mike Madden, one of the first officers on the scene. Watch this.


MIKE MADDEN, SAN BERNARDINA POLICE DEPARTMENT OFFICER: You know, we have taken a lot of hits lately. Some justified. Much of it not justified. And it takes a toll. It takes a toll on all cops because it's hard being -- it's hard being labeled and hard being branded as, you know, being rogue or, you know. And I guarantee you that no cop comes into this job with the mindset that, oh, great, now I have ultimate power to be corrupt and to violate people's rights. There are cops who go astray.

But overwhelmingly, the vast majority of officers, and when I say vast majority I'm talking 99.5 percent of the officers go out and they do the job to protect the public.

And yesterday just reminded me of that. And it just solidified that again in my -- in my heart and in my mindset. And for that, for that, I'm thankful.


LEMON: Art Roderick, I couldn't take my eyes off this interview. We were all sitting around in the news room watching this and he speaks very well for a police officer. Art?

RODERICK: Yes, I'm sorry, Don. Yes, no, I'll tell you what, this is probably very therapeutic for Lieutenant Madden. I couldn't take my eyes off it either. And he is right. He hit the nail on the head. Obviously, he's seen stuff that a lot of people will never ever see in their lifetime.

And there is a process that not only victims go through but law enforcements after they have been involved in a traumatic situation. And part of it is debriefing and talking with peers and sitting there and discussing these types of issues, and it does help you through it.

I've been through that process myself in a couple of the shootings I've been involved in, and it is very therapeutic. And for him to come out and do that today in front of the crowd and in front of the world, basically, was pretty -- pretty damn good. He hit the nail on the head.

LEMON: Bernie Kerik, I spent a lot of time talking with you about the bad things that police officers do. But we must remember, in times like this, police run towards the danger when everyone else is running away from it.

KERIK: You know what, Don, as somebody that commanded the NYPD on 9/11 and watched thousands of my men and women go into those buildings and the fire department and the port authority police, I watched yesterday and I have to say, as an outsider watching this on the TV screen, the men and women that were out there, especially the Special Operations personnel, the SWAT team members, they did a superb, superb job, especially when it came down to the vehicle -- the vehicle stop, securing the vehicle, clearing the vehicle, really, really, really well done.

They've got to be commended and they are heroes in every aspect of the word and I think people in this country should realize that's what cops do every day. They don't care about color, they're not looking at color. They don't care who calls. They went, they did a job that nobody else would really have the courage to do. And you got to give them a lot of credit. LEMON: Casey, he said that this was therapeutic for them.

JORDAN: It is. And I do think cops have taken a lot of bad flak lately because of other unrelated cases. There is a lot of anti-cop sentiment. And they get an a-plus for the way they handled this, and the way they responded.

I mean, when you saw that ocean of patrol cars responding when they had the shootout with the SUV, it really spoke a lot. We have to remember exactly that they will suffer for a long time. We learned this following Sandy Hook. PTSD isn't always covered by disability and it's a big controversy about the long term effects that these cops will suffer what they've through.

LEMON: Anthony May, we talked about; we have been talking over the last years about the militarization of the police department. In times like this though, people are glad that they have some of this equipment that they used there in San Bernardino.

MAY: Well, that's right. The BearCat protected the officers as they took the victims down on that SUV, You know, it's not an issue of the militarization of the police force or the armament that they have. It's really how they use it.

I think there was a discussion about this very issue this morning on CNN where it was said quite clearly by the -- one of the -- it may have been San Bernardino County, I'm not really sure, that, you know, if this was used during a protest, a different story.

[22:55:05] But in this type of situation, nobody has any issues with this type of equipment being utilized.

LEMON: But it also speaks to the kind of fire power that police are up against on the streets.

MAY: Well, exactly. I mean, the average cop is not equipped to handle on some of these -- some of these issues. I worked in Mexico several years back with the Mexican government chasing down the access of explosives and grenades. And we responded to a lot of the fire fights.

And what was happening down there is the drug trafficking organizations are so well equipped that the police officers and Mexican authorities simply ran out of bullets, and they were, you know, the DTOs came up and shot them.

You know, it's a balance of power. And the officers need the protection, especially in these mass shooting incidents. We saw where a lot of equipment needs to be utilized.

LEMON: Yes. Thank you, experts. I appreciate all of you. Thank you. When we come back, two neighbors of the killer's family. What they saw and what they thought about their family - that family next door.