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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA
Trump Says Ban all Muslims from U.S.; San Bernardino Shooters Radicalized Before ISIS; New Video of Chicago Police Tasering Man Inside Cell. Aired 11-11:30a ET
Aired December 8, 2015 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:10] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan. John Berman has the morning off.
"Only until our country's representatives figure out what the hell is going on" -- that's what Donald Trump says. But really, everyone, what the hell is going on at this point? Donald Trump laying out another stunner, calling for a ban on all Muslims from coming into the United States. That was last night.
Just this morning on CNN, Donald Trump was Trump and doubled down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (voice-over): We're letting people into our country. We don't know who they are. We have people here right now that are getting $28,000 miraculously over the last little while deposited in their account that they're using for very sinister purposes. There are, like these two, this husband and wife, this horrendous, horrible husband and wife. You have many other people like that in this country. You have many other people that having checks deposited in their account to do destruction. We have to find out what we're doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: That money angle, by the way, CNN has not confirmed.
Of all the controversial things Donald Trump has said during this campaign, the Muslim ban seems to be drawing the most intense response regardless of party. Critics, ranging from Dick Cheney, Paul Ryan to Hillary Clinton. "The Philadelphia Daily News" going so far as this, to liken Donald Trump to Hitler with this cover.
But the 2016 Republican presidential front runner says his idea is getting a whole lot of support.
Let's get more on this with CNN political reporter, Sara Murray.
Sara, you have been following Donald Trump's campaign. What's the latest you're picking up on this one?
SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Kate, I think you're absolutely right. This has drawn more condemnation from more sides, across both sides of the aisle, more of the Republican Party than anything we've seen Donald Trump do to date. I think for the first time you're starting to see the Republican Party leaders coalesce. We saw the leaders in Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, the first three voting states, all of them condemning Donald Trump's comments.
For the first time, House Speaker Paul Ryan weighed in on 2016. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Normally, I do not comment on what's going on in the presidential election. I will take an exception today. This is not conservative. What was proposed yesterday is not what this party stands for and, more importantly, it's not what this country stands for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: You can see there are party leaders who have been hesitant to criticize Trump, even believe this has gone too far.
But Donald Trump knows exactly what he's doing. He's appealing to a certain level of fear, mistrust or even of hatred among the people who are supporting him. And he's going to try to use that to drive up his numbers among conservatives in places like Iowa. And what we've seen in the past, when he does controversial things like this, when he makes proposals like this, it does work, it does drive his numbers up.
BOLDUAN: We also see, and it seems to be routine, he makes controversial comments in the evening, and the next morning, he goes on multiple morning shows, to double down on it, to inflame things even more to push his message, and then the poll numbers follow. That's for sure. We'll continue to follow it. You will as well.
Sara, thanks so much.
Let's talk much more about this. Let's hear what Muslims already living in the United States think about this latest controversy.
Tayyib Rashid is a Marine veteran. He moved from Pakistan with his family when he was just 10 and served in the U.S. Marines for five years on active duty; and Daisy Khan, executive director, of the Women's Islamic Initiative in Spirituality and Equality.
Thank you both very much for joining me.
Daisy, I think you both have probably had the opportunity to not just listen to what Trump said last night, but also the opportunity when he really doubled down on it, speaking to CNN this morning. What was your first reaction when you heard this from Donald Trump?
DAISY KHAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WOMEN'S ISLAMIC INITIATIVE IN SPIRITUALITY AND EQUALITY: My first reaction was I was outraged by what he was saying because he's going against the very principles that uphold America, which is, first of all, he is talking about the nation. He's playing on the fears of many people. We are the United States of America, not the divided states of America. But at a personal level, what he's talking about are my parents, who
are 80 years old, 76 years old, are planning to come to the United States next year to reunify with their children and grandchildren. Those are the people that would be barred from coming.
BOLDUAN: They won't be able to come.
KHAN: -- this preposterous claim he is making. And what is he really trying to say? There are six to eight million Muslims in this country. They all have families that come to visit them. And so are we trying to bar all those people? What we need is a much better vetting process so we can see who wants to do us harm. That's what our focus should be.
[11:05:02] BOLDUAN: Sergeant, to Daisy's point, what Donald Trump says and would say over and over again, until that vetting process is good enough for his standards, until we know what the hell is going on, then no one should be able to enter.
You have a very unique perspective on this. You've already taken Trump on before when he spoke out about a national database of Muslims. Your response blew up on social media. As a servicemember, you put up a card and said, here's my card already. So, what do you say to Donald Trump this time, Sergeant?
SGT. TAYYIB RASHID, FORMER U.S. MARINE & MUSLIM: Well, Kate, first of all. Thank you very much for having me. My response to Mr. Trump would be to remind him that United States is a nation of immigrants. We have people from all walks of life, from all over the world. It is this unique strength of America that we're a melting pot where we can bring different ideas together and create what is a beautiful nation.
Now, speaking on behalf of Muslims, Muslims have existed as part of the fabric of American society for hundreds of years. Muslims who believe in the messiah, to which I belong, was established in the United States in 1921. We are protective members of society, serve in the armed forces, Muslims for peace, and Muslims for loyalty campaigns, and it is that dialogue, productive communication with people to drive out misconception, to drive out fear that is going to really help us and really allow us to battle terrorism. These extremist ideas will only perpetuate hate and will make America more vulnerable versus less. So my --
BOLDUAN: I want to ask you just about that, especially from your perspective. You are a Marine. You've served this country. You know other servicemembers who are serving in active duty, likely overseas. We can know right now this policy is not in place. Would likely require an act of Congress and very likely would never go into place. The fact these words were uttered by the front-runner of the Republican side of this presidential race, the man who wants to be president, the man who could be president of the United States, do you -- what is the impact on servicemembers -- U.S. servicemembers serving overseas. Does this make their job more difficult?
RASHID: Absolutely. Again, I talked about this last time. When it makes comments, it divides our community, divides our country, and definitely has the potential of dividing armed forces. That is not strengthening America. That's actually weakening it.
So my advice to Mr. Trump, and especially my appeal to all his followers, is that go out and meet a Muslim, a real Muslim, who, by our faith, we're commanded to be loyal to our nation. Yes, there are extremists. Yes, we have to fight extremism. The way to fight extremism is not through policies that are extreme themselves. We have to find the middle ground and open up channels of dialogue, which is precisely what our community is trying to do.
BOLDUAN: And you say, you know, you talk about that fear, the fear and the reaction is what many say plays into what ISIS terrorists want. They want an apocalyptic war. They say it could be coming.
Daisy, let me ask you this. Trump says this isn't forever. This also is not internment camps. He says it's a temporary measure in the growing threat of terrorism coming in the aftermath of San Bernardino.
Listen to what some Trump supporters said yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED TRUMP SUPPORTER: That's a very prudent idea. I think he's done due diligence when he makes that statement. We have to protect our American citizens first. And the vetting process in the whole program lacks integrity.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Do you agree with that?
UNIDENTIFIED TRUMP SUPPORTER: Yes, I do.
UNIDENTIFIED TRUMP SUPPORTER: I don't want them here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: He's not just speaking to Trump. He's speaking to a segment of the population, Daisy. What do you say to that?
KHAN: It's clear people are fearful, so what is needed now is -- and people need to understand the Muslim community is probably the best asset the U.S. has to fight against extremism from within the community. First of all, this call we should ban all people from coming into this country doesn't make any sense because the person who committed this act was born in the United States.
BOLDUAN: Born in Illinois. Born and raised here.
KHAN: Born in Illinois and raised here, so how do you -- you know, how does it help?
BOLDUAN: It would not have stopped him from coming.
KHAN: -- not stopped them from coming. So, what is really needed is what the president said, that we need to work more closely with the Muslim community. Because we are the best asset the Muslim community has. We also understand the values of America and we can be interlocutors for that. They are preying on the sentiment they have, the sentiment of alienation. That work can only be done by the Muslim community. We need to work together hand in hand, across party lines, across religions, Americans coming together, Muslims and non Muslims.
[11:10:23] BOLDUAN: I think it would be interesting if you extended an invitation to Donald Trump to come meet with your group, if he could come, and what kind of fruitful conversation you could have there in talking --
KHAN: He could use -- he could use some wisdom, actually.
BOLDUAN: Thank you so much.
Daisy, very nice to meet you. Thank you.
Sergeant, thank you so much. Thank you for your service. Thank you for your time.
RASHID: Thank you, Kate.
BOLDUAN: Of course.
Just moments from now, an outspoken Trump supporter will be joining us to explain why she's defending the front-runner.
Plus, you'll hear from one of Donald Trump's top rivals, who is telling Mr. Trump, in his own words, go to hell.
Also, developing a killer couple's dry run. The San Bernardino terrorists holding target practice before their rampage. This, as we learn much more about when they became radicalized.
And a city on edge. A new video surfaces of a man in Chicago being tasered inside his jail cell. He later dies in the hospital. The mayor of Chicago is now demanding answers from his own police department.
We'll be right back.
[11:15:28] BOLDUAN: New information just in. Two U.S. officials say they have indications that Syed Rezwan Farook and his wife, Tashfeen Malik, were on the path to radicalization even before ISIS was a caliphate back in June of last year. That backs up what the FBI had been saying that the two had been radicalized for quite some time. But it's still not clear how they were radicalized, where it started and who was the driving force. Authorities also say the couple practiced their shooting at gun ranges at least once just the days before they went on their deadly rampage killing 14 people.
Let's bring in justice reporter, Evan Perez; as well as CNN counterterrorism analyst, Phil Mudd, a former CIA counterterrorism official.
Evan, first to you.
What more are you hearing from your sources about the couples' path to radicalization at this point?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: At this point, they believe that certainly the path to radicalization began much earlier, probably even before ISIS became well known. Certainly, not in the -- beyond the first year and a half ago when we first started hearing a lot about ISIS. So, that really then makes this a little more complicated because we do know that moments right before the attack began, the wife posted on Facebook a pledge of allegiance to ISIS. The way the FBI is looking at this, they believe the radicalization, perhaps, began with other groups. Perhaps an al Qaeda influence, well before ISIS became the flavor in the jihadi world, so to speak. So, that's what the going theory, the way the FBI is approaching this.
The question, though, that arises is, how is it possible that Malik, the wife, was able to pass the screening to get into this country just over a year ago, and then a year later, carry out one of the deadliest terrorist attacks since 9/11, certainly the deadliest domestic terrorist attack since 9/11. That's a big, big question the State Department has to answer because they conducted the interview with him before they gave her her fiancee visa. The Homeland Security Department also is reviewing its processes because they did check her against databases, but they're databases within this country, and they don't know what they might have missed had they done a deeper dive.
BOLDUAN: You talk about it being complicated. That's for sure, Evan.
Phil, to you, the length of time Evan is hearing from his sources, it could have gone even well before ISIS was a term we even knew about that ISIS was a term we were even talking about. The fact this was going on much longer, radicalized, both here in the U.S., because he was born and raised here, and her abroad, does that make it even more surprising to you or concerning that red flags weren't raised?
PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: A bit. This case gets more curious by the day. A lot of these cases after you look at them for 20 years, they're linear. A couple folks, typically young, get radicalized by the group. Talk to the group, get training, coming back and conduct an operation. These folks you have far longer in terms of their cycle of radicalization. In middle of that, they conceive a child, have a child. That's unusual for a terror cell. If you're going to spend that amount of time radicalizing, reaching out, thinking about supporting ISIS, when you look at terror attacks, the London subway, twin towers in New York, it's an iconic symbol everybody around the world that recognizes. These folks went through processes longer than most and they chose a county meeting. There's so much we don't know.
BOLDUAN: Do you think they'll get there? Or do you think there's so much missing, it is so complicated, it doesn't fit any pattern in the past that you may not know?
MUDD: I think part of the answer lies in that digital media they tried to destroy. That's the reason they tried to destroy it. The clues you have in any investigation like this are going to be basic. Talk to people. People are saying, we know some but not that much. Talk to people who they communicate with on the phone, so you need their phone to figure out who those contacts are, and then watch their e-mails. All three of those are not giving us great answer. The e- mail and the phone they tried to destroy. I'm not sure we'll have perfect answers here.
BOLDUAN: What do you make, Phil, in your experience of the likelihood of one of the theories that's been out there, not confirmed or otherwise, that it's the wife tht radicalized the husband, and some theorize she was a terrorist plant and this was an arranged marriage.
[11:19:58] MUDD: The terrorist plant thing, I'd need drugs to believe that one.
This is simpler than people are making it out to be. Two people live in a household. They are frustrated by what America is doing overseas. She's from Pakistan. A lot of comments in Pakistan, complaints about American drone strikes, for example. 14 years of war across the border in Afghanistan. Comments about Iraq. Over the course of time, in this case, we're talking over the course of a long time. You're saying, what do we do, what do we do? Individually, you think of the Tsarnaev brothers. I'm not sure they would have done anything individually. They have an emotional bond. They conduct the pipe bomb attacks. Individually I'm not sure he or she would have done something. Together they're persuading each other over the course of a year-plus, maybe we should act on it. I think it's the emotional link that's more important than whether one person radicalized the other.
BOLDUAN: It's more complicated. The more details Evan is pulling from his sources, it makes it more confounding how they got from here to there.
MUDD: Yeah. It's confusing.
BOLDUAN: Phil, thank you. Great to see you.
MUDD: Thank you.
BOLDUAN: Even, thank you so much as well.
Coming up for us, new video of a man being hit with a taser inside his jail cell and dragged down the hall. Up next, Mayor Rahm Emanuel of Chicago is demanding answers from his already embattled Chicago Police Department.
And "racist, dangerous, unhinged" -- that's just some of the criticism coming at Donald Trump today after calling for a ban on all Muslims from entering the United States in the presidential primary that is unpredictable, if nothing else. What's the possible impact of his inflammatory remarks on the race for the White House?
[11:25:40] BOLDUAN: New video just released, further inflaming tension on the streets of Chicago. This video we're going to show you from 2012 shows six officers that walked into a jail cell of 38-year- old Phillip Coleman. When Coleman stands up, he's hit with a taser, wrestled to the ground and handcuffed and then dragged down the hallway. Coleman later died in the hospital from an adverse reaction to a sedative that he was given there. Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel, who is already under fire for another officer-involved death and officer -- and the manner police are acting in those situations, he is none too pleased. He said this in a statement, quote, "I do not see how the manner in which Mr. Coleman was physically treated could possibly be acceptable. Something is wrong here, either the actions of the officers who dragged Mr. Coleman or the policies of the department."
Let's discuss. A lot to discuss. Joining me, Ryan Young, from Chicago; and criminal and civil trial attorney, Eric Guster.
Ryan, first to you.
The mayor is demanding answers, as he said, but a lot of people are pointing the finger back at the mayor. What's going to happen here?
RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What makes it so tough, it's another day, another video. This man had over 50 abrasions on his body, the medical examiner said. At the end of all this, the officers were all cleared by independent authority. None of them faced charges for what was happened here. He was tased some 13 times and could be seen being dragged down that hallway. In fact, his father is quoted as saying, you can see the officers laughing on that video tape. He's very upset.
Officers were originally called to his house because apparently he had a mental episode and they needed help because he apparently punched his mother and they were able to arrest him. The father believes the officers were trying to get even with them is because he spit blood in their faces as he was being arrested. But after all that, seeing him beaten, dragged, tased, the family is obviously very upset. The 50 abrasions have people asking questions about what's going on.
Then you have the mayor. You obviously have him in a tough position with everything that's going on. The DOJ now looking at the Chicago Police Department. But this happened back in 2012. We all know that here in Chicago the independent review board has to go through these cases. There's now been a change at the top. But a lot of people are still asking questions about what's not only going on now, but more videotapes set to be released throughout the week -- Kate?
BOLDUAN: More video tapes set to be released throughout the week. We'll be talking more about this and much, much more.
Ryan, thank you.
Eric, to you.
The mayor has called what happened to this man, Philippe Coleman, unacceptable. That's how he put it. What do you see in this video?
ERIC GUSTER, CRIMINAL & CIVIL TRIAL ATTORNEY: I see police brutality, first of all, for them to tase this man. He was in his cell. He was supposed to be going to a court hearing, which is not a reason to tase someone and force them to go anywhere. Secondly, you see the tape where the man was being dragged down the hallway. That is totally unacceptable. That is not in police procedure anywhere to drag him by his wrists, causing injuries down a hallway. These police officers are out of control. That's why the DOJ is coming in.
BOLDUAN: On this point of the DOJ, they're looking at this practice of the civil rights investigation, they launched one. This incident happened three years ago. As Ryan said, the officers were all cleared. The video is just coming out now, as the Justice Department is launching its investigation. What is the city trying to do here?
GUSTER: The city is trying to get all these bad stuff out. This is like a bad 12 days of Christmas. They're going to get one video out a day to let the public know, this is the bad stuff we have going on.
BOLDUAN: How does that help them?
GUSTER: Well, they know the Department of Justice --
BOLDUAN: Minimize the damage, I guess?
GUSTER: Yes. They know the DOJ is coming in. They're going to pull all the videos, all the tapes, and look at all these matters and see what was done wrong. Instead of the DOJ dumping all this information on the public, Chicago is trying to mitigate it to say, you know, here's a little bit at a time, let you know what's going on. Just like the long press conference that Alvarez had yesterday on the police shooting. That was a long press conference where she was very testy about some of even the reporters' questions. They're being very defensive in Chicago, with decent reason, but they have some problems going on.
BOLDUAN: This case is still -- I guess we can call it open three years later if they're releasing this video, even though Ryan says the officers were cleared.