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Bill Cosby Arraigned in Pennsylvania on Felony Charges; Interview with Cosby Accuser Kaya Thompson; Cosby's Fall from Dr. Huxtable; CNN Films Highlights Steve Jobs. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired December 30, 2015 - 22:00   ET


[22:00:01] DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: You just heard the stories of some of Bill Cosby's accusers, now the picture Cosby never wanted the world to see. This is his mug shot. The tarnished comedy legend we once thought of as America's dad, free tonight on $1 million's bond after his arraignment on felony charges of sexual assault. This is CNN tonight, I'm Don Lemon.

From the walk of fame to this, Bill Cosby walks into a Pennsylvania courtroom to be arraigned on three felony charges of aggravated indecent assault. Cosby has denied any wrongdoing, and the district attorney did not name the victim, but her attorney confirms the charges stem from the case of Andrea Constand, a former Temple University employee, who has said Cosby drugged and fondled her in 2004.

She was the first person to publicly allege sexual assault by Cosby, but certainly not the last. We're going to talk to one of those women tonight. But I want to begin with CNN's Jean Casarez live for us at the courthouse in Pennsylvania. Good evening, Jean. You were inside that courtroom when Bill Cosby surrendered. Tell us what happened.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Inside that very small courtroom right behind me, this is the courthouse, it's just you walk in the door and there's the courtroom. This is Montgomery County, Pennsylvania. It's close to Philadelphia, but it's a very small town in and of itself, and Bill Cosby was not late for this arraignment.

It was 2.30 sharp, and he walked into the courtroom with his attorney by his side looking really good, actually. But he -- it appeared as though he couldn't see well, and his attorney was helping him along step-by-step, up to the front to the defense table.

He sat down and it was just not long after that that the magistrate judge took her seat, and we all began the proceeding. It was very short, very constitutionally-based, asking him if he understood the charges against him. And he said that he did, which of course, is indecent -- aggravated indecent assault.

And then she went on to say that she had set the bail at $1 million, and 10% had to be paid, and she looked straight at him and she said there are conditions for this bail. First of all, you must have no contact with the alleged victim, you must give up your passport. With that, his attorney stood up, and he had his passport in his hand, and gave the passport of Bill Cosby directly to the prosecutor, laying it on the prosecutor's table so she could just take it. And then the judge went on, and Bill Cosby had to sign some papers.

He again was told he could not have contact with the alleged victim, because remember early on in 2004-2005, he called her asking if they could work this out. But at that point when the judge said again, you can have no contact, he said no contact with who? And she said with the accuser, the alleged victim. And so -- do you understand this, Mr. Cosby? And she was very nice. And he said yes, big smile on his face, but very professional.

Bill Cosby was professional, but also in a sense like something like this happened every day. The seriousness of being charged with felonies did not really appear on his face. But before you knew it, it was over. She said good luck, Mr. Cosby, he said thank you in a big booming voice in the courtroom, and he was helped out.

LEMON: This incident, the alleged incident, Jean, happened back in 2004. Why is this all happening now?

CASAREZ: Well, it's very interesting to really think about this, because first of all the statute of limitations, believe it or not, 12 years in Pennsylvania, and that is extraordinarily long. But because of that they were allowed to still bring these charges because it will be 12 years between January and February of 2016.

Secondly, he said in the press conference today, the upcoming district attorney, that the deposition that was unsealed this summer really led to new evidence. But if you listen to what he said, new evidence because of other alleged victims.

Well they had come out on CNN months before that, but he attributes that deposition, where there were questions of the other alleged victims, as being in part that new evidence. Now we first learned today and we had never heard before, the contents of the statement that Bill Cosby gave to the police back in 2005. It's part of the probable cause affidavit.

And Cosby admits sexual contact with Andrea Constand, saying, though, that it was consensual. So really that was not that new in the current deposition that was unsealed. He said that to the police, which would have been given to the district attorney in 2005, back then.

But charges were not brought because the district attorney said we don't have the evidence. So is the new evidence simply the other accusers and whether or not they will be able to testify in court, not about Andrea Constand but their own stories, I think is left to a judge, it's left to be seen. But new election, new district attorney, he brought charges.

LEMON: Yes, and you said the next time he is in court is January or February. But here's the question, could other Cosby accusers be called to testify, even though their cases are older, Jean? CASAREZ: Quite possibly. It's up to the judge. It would be prior

bad acts, and this can be allowed in a court when there are strikingly similar situations that have never been prosecuted, but because the facts are so similar, the judge can allow it to come in to show that there is an absence of accident, to show the intent of Bill Cosby in general, and it's not to prove that he did anything to Andrea Constand but it's to show the state of mind of Bill Cosby throughout the years and throughout his life. A jury could hear from at least some of them.

LEMON: All right, Jean Casarez. Jean, thank you very much. Now I want to bring in Kaya Thompson. She is one of at least 50 women who have accused Bill Cosby. Kaya, thank you so much for joining us. You probably thought that you would never see this day come, and I'm sure that's the same for lots of Cosby accusers. I like to say survivors. Have you been waiting for this, and what is your reaction to it?

KAYA THOMPSON, COSBY ACCUSER: Yes, shocked and happy, prayers answered.

LEMON: Do you think that people -- do you think people finally believe you now? Does this sort of cement that for you?

THOMPSON: Well, they have more tools to work with for forming their own opinions now.

LEMON: As I understand -- you know, I was at home watching it on television getting ready to come into work. As I understand, your father heard the news first, correct? And he told you?

THOMPSON: Correct, yes.

LEMON: Yeah? What happened?

THOMSPON: Yes. Sort of a happy dance, and then I called a fellow survivor, and immediately started -- my phone started blowing up with the other women, and it's been a big day, Don.

LEMON: Yeah. So let's tell your story, OK? So you came to New York, you wanted to be a model and you wanted to be an actress. How did you meet Bill Cosby, and what was that initial relationship like?

THOMPSON: Sure. I'll preface by saying I'm from the Washington D.C. area, lived in Maryland, Gaithersburg. I graduated high school a year early, and was modeling in the D.C. area and had been asking my mother, I was modeling since I was 15, you know, can I go to Manhattan and model? No, no, no.

So I took it upon myself with a friend, a girlfriend, and bought a round-trip ticket to Manhattan for the day, knowing that I would get back and they'd never know. And I went to Faces, one of the top 10 agencies it said in a book to go to, owned by Sue Charney. She managed Janice Dickinson as well as Jewel Allison and other survivors.

It seemed like within a half hour or an hour, it was signed on the spot, and within that time span I was sent to the Kaufman Astoria Studios in Queens where they filmed The Cosby Show, where I met him. I had tears in my eyes.

Mom didn't know I was there. My mother, Judith Thompson, was the director of a maternal child health unit in Gaithersburg, and he phoned her. She of course didn't even know I was out of the Washington metropolitan area. We watched his program every Thursday and also had albums and so his voice, she knew who he was, and he --

LEMON: And he assured her that he would take care of you, and that he would -- that you should move to New York, reassured you that everything would be OK and he would look after you, right?

THOMPSON: Then, and then also when my parents met -- came up to meet him before I moved, I was 17. My mother and father and I ate dinner at his house. We were there many hours listening to these assurances.

LEMON: Yeah. So Kaya, you know, at first you choose to remain anonymous with your allegations and there were other people who did as well. But earlier this year you went public. What changed for you?

THOMPSON: I suppose I just got brave. I'm not certain exactly what detail changed. But I decided -- I really don't know exactly, Don. It's been quite a whirlwind. I'm glad I made the choice, though.

LEMON: So he -- Cosby continues to maintain that any sexual acts were consensual. What do you say to that?

THOMPSON: No. Certainly regarding the actual act, the audience can Google. I don't choose to relive it anymore. However, he - yeah, no, would be my answer to that, simply.

LEMON: You said that you watched every Thursday, and we all did, you know, back in the day. I watched in college. We all watched. What did -- what did he represent to you?

THOMPSON: My father's name is bill. Great sense of humor. He was a father figure, as he was for many of us who are survivors, an icon for the African-American community. Made it all the more difficult to come forward as, you know, the programming there was harsh, and reactions, to this day, can be very harsh.

But now, I feel that really for the African-American community, he owes us to be honest. He owes us to see what it is like for someone who has done wrong to own up, and hopefully try to shape up. He owes the people of color that, and all of us.

LEMON: Did you -- did you watch -- you weren't -- you said your dad found out first, but did you happen to see the video of him going in and out of the courthouse and the mug shot?

THOMPSON: Just here in the studios, and I was speaking with someone earlier about him being in court. I know this blind card is going to come up, and I mentioned he will have a cane and someone on each elbow, and I was right. I certainly am not insensitive to handicaps, but let's look at 50 years of a -- of a pattern by a perpetrator, and not those issues.

LEMON: What do you want to see happen to him?

THOMPSON: And let's just be honest, Mr. Cosby, honesty, just own up, just own your actions, please, at this point. The other thing I'd like to say before we go, I noticed that a lot of -- before all of these interviews end, there is a disclaimer saying Mr. Cosby has denied all allegations.

I believe there is a community -- comedian, excuse me, D.L. Hughley, I listened to an interview and actually he has never denied any allegation. The most words he has given is a comment to AP about scuttling the report. His lawyers have denied the allegations. I'm certainly not interested in seeing him face to face or hearing that -- well, yes, the truth, but he's never denied allegations from his lips.

LEMON: Yeah. At this point though, his attorneys do speak for him. But what would you like to see -- what would you like to see happen to him?

THOMPSON: Again, I'd like him to own up. You know, I think it would curtail a lot of bad karma or suffering on his part, on his person. But you know, that's all -- that's all I have. I'm not -- as I said earlier on a CNN interview, this is now in the hands of a higher power.

LEMON: Yeah. Kaya Thompson, thank you. We appreciate you coming in.

THOMPSON: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Bill Cosby's own words may be some of the strongest evidence in the case against him. Coming up, my interview with Cosby in 2013, and what he said that may have gotten him in trouble.


LEMON: Woman after woman after woman, at least 50 of them accused Bill Cosby, but he has never faced criminal charges until today. Cosby faces three felony charges of aggravated and indecent assault, and is free tonight on $1 million bond.

His attorneys called the criminal case against him unjustified, and vow to fight it. Gloria Allred is with me tonight. She represents 29 Cosby accusers, also former (ph) defense attorney Tom Mesereau. It's good to have both of you here to get your expert. Gloria I'm going to go to you first because you represent 29 of the accusers. How are your clients reacting to this?

GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY FOR 29 COSBY ACCUSERS: Well, I have been receiving e-mails and many of them are very, very happy that Andrea Constand is going to be able to get her day in court in the criminal justice system.

For most of them they are going to be denied that opportunity to have their day in court, because it's too late because of the statute of limitations, and they cannot have their matter prosecuted even if a DA felt that there was evidence sufficient to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. And it's too late for most of them to also file a civil lawsuit because of this arbitrary time period set by law called the statute of limitations. But they are happy for Andrea, and you know, we all want Mr. Cosby to have a fair trial, but Andrea should have the right to have a fair trial as well.

LEMON: Did you ever think you would see this day, Gloria?

ALLRED: I wasn't sure, because even though we have been litigating a civil lawsuit on behalf of Judy Huth, who alleges she was 15 years old when Mr. Cosby victimized her allegedly at the Playboy Mansion, and it was too late for her case to be criminally prosecuted, the burden of proof is so much higher in a criminal case than it is in a civil case.

There needs to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, which obviously this DA in Montgomery County feels that he has. In a civil case, much less proof is required. So I wasn't really sure whether or not a criminal case would ever be filed against Mr. Cosby.

LEMON: OK. Tom, I want to play this. Cosby's attorney released this statement today after the arraignment. And it says a charge by the Montgomery county district attorney's office came as no surprise, filed 12 years after the alleged incident, and coming on the heels of a hotly contested election for the county's DA, during which -- during which this case was made the focal point.

Make no mistake, we intend to mount a vigorous defense against this unjustified charge, and we expect that Mr. Cosby will be exonerated by a court of law. So if you are representing him, how would you be preparing right now to defend Cosby?

THOMAS MESEREAU, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well first of all, I want to make clear I don't know the evidence in the case, I never met Mr. Cosby, I've never met this accuser, and I never met any of Ms. Allred's clients. A lot of things going on trouble me today.

This media frenzy, most of which is negative towards Mr. Cosby, reminds me of the Michael Jackson case. You know, as soon as he was charged, every major network was doing a special on him, all of them negative. Everyone said he settled cases for money, he couldn't possibly prevail in any criminal courtroom.

The allegations were that other accusers were going to step forward to prove that he had a propensity to do this. This is all reminding me of the past 11 years ago. And the fact that this DA ran on a platform that he was, or she was going to prosecute Mr. Cosby, and then filed a case a few days before the statute runs, is very, very disturbing. It begins as a political football, OK. Next --

LEMON: So what are you say -- are you saying that there is a rush to judgment and that innocent until proven guilty, is that what you're saying?

MESEREAU: It looks to me that there was a political motivation to get this filed based on a campaign pledge. Can you imagine if this DA ran in four years and was attacked for not going after Mr. Cosby? I think there was a political motivation to file the case.

And let me also say this, my understanding is that the accuser in this case entered into a confidential civil settlement with Mr. Cosby, OK. Every confidential civil settlement I have ever heard of involved a payment of money in return for signing a settlement agreement where you acknowledge that the defendant, in this case Mr. Cosby, does not admit any wrongdoing.

If that happened in this case, and I have trouble believing it didn't, and I were cross-examining this person, the first thing I would ask her would be what's more important to you, money or principle? Did you take money and walk away confidentially, or did you take this to a jury and do it publicly? And then I would go from there, OK. I suspect that her taking money in return for a confidential settlement is going to haunt her throughout this case if that's what she did.

LEMON: All right, well let's talk about that. Because we have this -- in his opinion about deciding to unseal this deposition, the judge, Eduardo Robreno, cited in an interview, this is an interview that I did in 2013, and here is part of that interview, that when I asked Cosby about leaders in the African-American community. Take a look at this.


BILL COSBY, DEFENDANT: I think it has to come from the same place, I think it has to come from the universities, I think women, strongly, because when you see 70 percent in research that says they're the leaders of the household, what we need is for people to realize I want to raise my kid, I want to go back and get my three kids, I want to take on that responsibility.

I want to love my children, in every loud voice you hear yelling about something and saying, well, you just -- you lost us, you became a millionaire. The reason why I'm giving you this information is because I was living in the projects, I was not taking care of myself in terms of managing my education, and once the door opened and I saw, quote-unquote, the light, I started to become very successful.


LEMON: And that judge said that because Cosby did interviews with me and other members of the media, and because he gave speeches and spoke at universities, the famous pound cake speech is noted in 2004 as well, let's listen to that.


COSBY: These are not political criminals. These are people going around stealing Coca-Cola, people getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake. And then we all run out and we're outraged. Oh, the cops shouldn't have shot him. What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand? (laughter)

(END AUDIO CLIP) LEMON: So all of these are noted by the judge, it's noted there in the legal work, who said that Cosby had, quote, voluntarily narrowed the zone of privacy. First, Tom, do you agree with the judge? And then I want to get Gloria's opinion. First Tom.

MESEREAU: Well I need to know more facts. I mean why was the deposition sealed? Was it part of a settlement? Did both sides agree that this would be sealed in return for the payment of money and the signing of a settlement agreement? I don't know the context in which it was sealed. If both sides agreed to seal it, I think it should have remained sealed, but I don't know what the expectations were, and I don't know what the agreement was.

LEMON: Gloria?

ALLRED: Well Judge Robreno called Mr. Cosby a public moralizer, and he decided to allow at least excerpts of the deposition to be made public, and I think that was the right decision. As a result of some of those excerpts of Mr. Cosby's testifying under oath in the deposition in the Andrea Constand lawsuit, you know, public learned that Mr. Cosby admitted under oath using Quaaludes with the intent to have sex with some women.

He did not say that, when he was asked, did the women agree or was that without their knowledge, without their consent. His attorney objected to the question. He did not answer that question. Nonetheless, some of that now has been in the public domain, and I think rightfully so. And in -- and also used by the prosecutor.

LEMON: But do you think it should have been unsealed? Is it unusual to unseal -- is it -- I'm sorry to interrupt, but is it unusual to unseal a document, especially when there was a settlement, and there was an expectation of privacy? Is that unusual for a judge to go back and unseal a document that has been sealed?

ALLRED: Well, you know, this judge decided that it was appropriate for this to be made public. There was an issue of whether actually the sealing or protective order had in fact expired anyway. But in any event he did that

Now as to the deposition that we took in October of Mr. Cosby, there is a protective order on that and our motion to compel a second deposition of Mr. Cosby, we had to file that under seal as well. Whether the judge will in fact unseal it, whether he will lift the protective order on the deposition at any point, I don't know. But it is definitely within the discretion of the court.

LEMON: OK, stand by. We're going to have more. I want both of you to stay with me, when we come right back I want to know what you think of the things that Bill Cosby's accusers told me.


LEMON: Andrea Constand was the first of Bill Cosby's accusers to go public, but now there are many more who are telling their story. So back with me now, Gloria Allred and Tom Mesereau. So Gloria, to you first, I want you to listen to a special I did with many of the survivors. This is last January.


KRISTINA RUEHLI, COSBY ACCUSER: He has the same MO with all of us. He identifies a vulnerable victim. He then gets them alone or lures them into a place, that sometimes where other people are in proximity. He drugs them. He does his thing with him -- them. And then sometimes he waits for them to wake up so he can hurt -- heap yet more contempt.

LEMON: He still has supporters.

BARBARA BOWMAN, COSBY ACCUSER: That's a good point, Don, because the man could not possibly be acting alone. And what I mean by that is the man has power and wealth and fame, and has many people, an impenetrable circle, many layers of circles of people that are protecting him, that has created this hermetically sealed bubble of protection.


LEMON: The special was me and my colleague Alisyn Camerota. So Gloria, what do the survivors that you represent say about this? Do they believe more people were involved? Do any of them remember other people being involved or present?

ALLRED: Well, you know, if as in when any of them become witnesses and if they are asked that question under oath, then they can answer under oath. Right now I would rather not -- I would rather not reveal what I know as a result of attorney client privilege.

But I would like to respond to what Tom said, and his suggestion that somehow that Andrea did this for money. If in fact she did accept a financial settlement as a result of the civil lawsuit, which by the way is quite common, I have many cases that we settle, there is a financial settlement, there is a confidentiality clause, and sometimes there's a criminal case as well. Nothing wrong with that.

Victims have options. They have both options. They can exercise one or the other or both. If a DA will agree to prosecute, sometimes not, and then they proceed with a civil lawsuit, they have every right to do so. They shouldn't be attacked for seeking compensation for their therapy, for their medical bills, for their pain and suffering.

They are empowered if they do that and they have every right to do that, and I resent any suggestion by any defense attorney, and many, many defense attorneys make the suggestion that somehow they only did it for money, because most victims I know would rather not have been victimized and would rather not have to file a civil suit, and hope that that would never have happened.

LEMON: How do you -- how do you respond to that, Tom?

MESEREAU: Well first of all, many celebrities are victims of false accusations, and they will pay money to end the ordeal and spare their family having to go through all this. Michael Jackson freely admitted that he paid almost $20 million to spare his family an O.J. Simpson- type situation. He went to trial and he was exonerated of every allegation, 10 felonies and 4 misdemeanors. He was completely cleared.

And I would like to know who Ms. Allred's clients were 40 years ago. What were their morals? What was their behavior like? Did they go to parties where drugs were handed out? Did they bring drugs to those parties? Why did they approach Mr. Cosby? What did they want to get out of the relationship?

I'd like to know who they really were. They need to be thoroughly investigated, their backgrounds need to be thoroughly checked, and they have to be aggressively questioned to find out exactly what happened and what didn't happen. This is 40 years later, and suddenly they are all coming out, making these accusations. Something seems wrong to me.

LEMON: And listen, Tom --

ALLRED: Well it doesn't seem wrong to me at all.

LEMON: Tom, there are what, about 50 accusers now? Surely they can't all be looking for money.

ALLRED: Well, they're -- most of them are not going to be able to sue. It's too late. So what are they looking for? Who are they? What are their value systems? What were they like 40 years ago? What did they intend to get from their relationship, or their involvement with Mr. Cosby? How did they behave? What did they agree to?

Remember, the '60s and '70s drugs were being handed out at parties, clubs, left and right. People of both sexes were bringing Quaaludes and all sorts of things, and using them freely. It was a different society then.

I'm not involved in this case. I don't know the facts or what really happened, but I'm very skeptical of this many women suddenly jumping on the bandwagon 40 years later, when times have changed, long after they could have made claims to the police or whatever. Something seems wrong to me.

LEMON: Gloria, have any of your clients been contacted --

ALLRED: Well I don't think there's something seems wrong at all.

LEMON: Have any of your clients been contacted to testify? And will they if asked?

ALLRED: I'm not at liberty to reveal whether there has been contact with law enforcement. I will say this, that my clients have clearly indicated, many of them, to me that they are willing to testify if as in when their testimony is sought, if that testimony is considered to be relevant or admissible in the criminal case.

You can see what Tom is doing, which is what most defense attorneys would do, which is try to put the victim on trial, try to blame the victim, try to make suggestions about the victim. And we understand that that's how the game is played, especially when they are up against a celebrity who has money, who has power, who has fame, who is known and thought of as a respected father figure.

This is why some of them didn't come out some years ago, because they were afraid that they would be attacked. But now it's a different time. They now have courage. By the way, some of them did tell their friends and family years ago. Some of them did in fact tell coworkers, some of them may have told therapists and some of them may have told others.

I recognize Tom doesn't know, he hasn't spoken to them. I have. I have spoken to not only all of my clients personally, but many more who have called me, who have not spoken out publicly, but who are also willing to testify if as in when their testimony is required, they just didn't want to speak out publicly.

So I admire them. They are willing to endure the rigors of being accused of all kinds of things. But it's Mr. Cosby who is on trial, and he better get ready, because it's not going to be fun and games, and as you said, not a laughing matter for him.

LEMON: And let's talk about -- let's talk about that, Tom. So again, if you were representing, you said you don't know about the case, you have not been contacted -- I don't know if you want to reveal if you've been contacted or not. But, where would you proceed from here if you were representing Bill Cosby? Would you put him on the stand, would you go for a plea deal? Would you continue on? What would you do?

MESEREAU: First of all, Gloria puts up a nice smoke screen. "Fatty" Arbuckle in the 1930's was accused of rape, and it was a high-profile trial. People have accused celebrities of improprieties for 100 years. The idea that suddenly he was so powerful and you couldn't go to the police, and you couldn't make an accusation is complete nonsense.

They could have gone right to the police, and a lot of prosecutors would have wanted to bring a high profile case against a celebrity. But in answer to your question, there has to be a thorough investigation into these women. Everything about their background has to be checked.

He is presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And this feeding frenzy against him has the potential for denying him that presumption of innocence. We have to respect the system, we have to honor the system, and his lawyers have an absolute right to find out who these accusers are, and what skeletons lie in their closet, and I'll guarantee you there are some.

LEMON: All right, that's going to have to be the last word. Thank you --

ALLRED: I translate that you are saying he is the real victim, Bill Cosby. I don't buy that.

LEMON: Thank you both very much. Bill Cosby still --

MESEREAU: I wouldn't expect you to.

LEMON: -- has a star on the Walk of Fame, but is his legacy forever tarnished? When we come right back, the fall of an icon.


LEMON: If you happened to be around in the '80s, like I was, you know The Cosby Show was must-see TV. It painted a picture of a warm and loving, all-American family, headed by Dr. Cliff Huxtable, personified by Bill Cosby.

Well that picture is very different today with Cosby facing sexual assault charges. Joining me now to talk about the fall of an icon is CNN contributor my colleague Nischelle Turner, and anchor of Entertainment Tonight. Nischelle, do you remember this, and then we'll talk, do you remember this? Look.


BILL COSBY: (as Dr. Cliff Huxtable) You see a long time ago before you were born, I prayed that God would give me a son to carry on the family name, and you were born. And I've watched you do things. (laughter) And many times I have wanted to ask you not to tell anyone who you are. (laughter) And last night was one of those times. (laughter)


LEMON: I think -- I can see my mom saying that to me.


LEMON: What happened to that guy? Can we still love that Bill Cosby despite what we know now?

TURNER: You know, if I'm being honest, I am one of those people who was a super fan of The Cosby Show. I think I have seen every episode probably three times over, and I was a little uneasy watching that. I definitely was.

I mean it is hard sometimes to separate the man from the character, and I think that's what we are seeing so much of right now. I mean Bill Cosby's achievements in television cannot be taken away. We shouldn't say that.

I mean The Cosby Show single-handedly I think revived television sitcoms in the 1980s. It was one of those trailblazing programs that you just don't see anymore. Number one for five seasons in a row, I mean it was just that good.

Two of those episodes, in my opinion, the one we are showing right here, the anniversary episode, and also the Gordon Gartrell episode I think were two of the best episodes of television that have ever been done, they were that good.

But now we see a much different Bill Cosby, and we see people really separating themselves from him in a rapid fire motion. I mean the house of cards that has happened with him has really been awesome to watch, and I don't say awesome as in a great way, just like a wow way to watch this happen.

LEMON: You know, we didn't have a DVR or TiVo, whatever you want to call it. We did have VHS recorders back then. But I mean everybody would be like -- we would be in the quad or like, you know, having beers, oh, we got to get home to watch The Cosby Show. That just doesn't happen that much anymore. What do you think the dinner table conversation is like tonight, about this stunning fall from grace?

TURNER: Well you know, it's interesting, because I'm not sure if the parents with children today are really having the same conversations that we would have had with our parents back in the day, because I think this generation is a little bit removed from the Bill Cosby that we grew up idolizing who was known as quote-unquote America's dad.

You know, if it were back in our day I think it would be a really sad conversation there would be a lot of what happened, why? You know, this man, you know, for much of America, like I said, he was America's dad, but if I'm being honest, for black folks and people of color in our community, that image of The Cosby Show and Bill Cosby and Felicia Rashad, and the upwardly mobile, wonderful parents, and having this great family, that sat very deep for a lot of us.

Because either we felt like the representation of African-Americans on television was either unrepresented or completely misguided. So to see this, it really brought a sense of pride to us. So those conversations in our day, along with Fat Albert, and picture pages from the generation before us, uptown Saturday night, you know, all of those things is what made Bill Cosby who we saw him to be in his mind, so it would have been a really sad conversation.

These days I'm not sure what the conversation would be at the dinner table. I think it would be - you know, I think kids are probably saying mom, what -- who is this man, and what did he do? Why are you so (inaudible) about it?

LEMON: It's interesting because I lived in this little subdivision called Parkvis (ph), it was right outside of Southern University and it was like all of the people -- they were just -- it was just like The Cosby Show. We had not seen that on television. We were like oh, there is our little neighborhood finally on the TV.

And then this. Look at Ebony Magazine, right, this is the cover of Ebony Magazine, right. But then there's a quote, I'll show you the quote, but you know you saw that shattered cover. Bill Cosby, for some, has become a symbol of every black man brought down by a racist society with the help of mercenary and vengeful women. And then now you have it. How do you feel about that?

TURNER: Well you know what's interesting about that, Don, Beverly Johnson who has come out as one of Bill Cosby's accusers, kind of said the same thing herself before she decided to speak out. She said it took her such a long time to tell her story because she did not want to be one of those women thought of as one of those women bringing down a black man.

So those are real conversations that people are having. Listen, if you are being honest you have heard that conversation a lot throughout this whole process. And people were really slow to come to the party of thinking that this could actually have happened.

I mean, people really didn't want to believe it, especially the people in the black community. Even my mother after a long time called me and said do you really think that he could have done this? I mean it was all really a demoralizing thing to try and wrap your brain around.

It still is, because we don't have an outcome yet. And remember, Bill Cosby has filed a defamation lawsuit against several of the women that have accused him, so you know, who knows what will happen with this going forward, now that the criminal charges have been filed.

LEMON: Well Nischelle, I'm so glad to have you on the show and get your perspective. I watch you every night. Continue the great work on ET.

TURNER: Same here.

LEMON: OK, thanks, y'all. Always good to see you, wish it was under better circumstances.

TURNER: All right, Don.

LEMON: All right, thanks. Bye-bye. We come right back, very different legacy, Steve Jobs was a giant in his field. You know the legend, but what about the man? Hear the real story. That's next.


LEMON: Apple has sold over 1 billion iPhones and iPads worldwide, not to mention MacBooks, Apple TVs, and iPods. And if you unwrap one this holiday season, you know that Steve Jobs was a genius. But you don't know his whole story and not all of it is pretty. CNN Films takes a look at his complicated life with "STEVE JOBS: THE MAN IN THE MACHINE", which premieres this Sunday.

OK, so let's discuss this now. One of the men who worked with Steve Jobs from the beginning is Andy Hertzfeld. There he is. Andy, how are you doing?


LEMON: You were part of the original Macintosh development team in the '80s. And what was it like being a part of Steve Jobs' world at that time?

HERTZFELD: Well it was really thrilling. Steve inspired us and taught us that we could work hard and make a difference in the world. And it was just a blast to be able to do that.

LEMON: I want to take a look at this film, a little bit of a look at this film, and it's looking inside the original Macintosh computer. Here it is.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the things that Steve thought was important, and Jerry Manic facilitated, was this is where all the signatures are, and there are all the people, the original group, that actually signed the machine. There's Steve Jobs, right in the middle. My name is over here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you do that?

STEVE JOBS, FOUNDER, APPLE INC: Because the people that worked on it considered themselves, and I certainly consider them, artists. These are the people that under different circumstances would be painters and poets, but because of the time that we live in, this new medium has appeared in which to express oneself to one's fellow species, and that's a medium of computing.


LEMON: Your signature's in that machine. What is it like hearing him describe you as an artist?

HERTZFELD: Well, Steve was an artist. And I've always loved art and considered myself an artist as well, and a lot of the team did, so it's great. I just felt a pang just hearing his voice like that. That was very much the Steve I know.

LEMON: He was infamous though, I mean he had a mammoth personality. He could tear you down just as easily as he could inspire you. A clip from the film, one of your colleagues talking about working for the legend, here it is.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's easy to make chaos, and if you are comfortable with it, you can use it as a tool. And he used a vast number of really irritating tools to get other people involved in his schemes. He is seducing you, he is vilifying you, and he's ignoring you. You're in one of those three states.

LEMON: Was that your experience?

HERTZFELD: Yeah, that's a pretty good quote. Steve could be incredibly seductive, but he also could be amazingly difficult.

LEMON: I know that you think that much has been made of maybe the negative parts of his personality or persona, but do you think that you have to be a jerk to be successful?

HERTZFELD: Absolutely not. I think a great example was Steve's original partner, Steve Wozniak. He is one of the kindest and most generous people I have ever met. You know, you don't have to be a jerk to be successful, although you do have to be tough to be a good businessman.

LEMON: Yeah. You know, it's interesting to watch, when you look at the original video, you know, the earlier, I should say, video of him, and then you look at him after he became sick, he's so frail. Were you involved during that time?

HERTZFELD: I wasn't involved at Apple but I stayed friendly with Steve, and yeah, it was just a -- just a sad, horrible thing to watch him wither away like that over the course of a few years.

LEMON: What do you think he would think of today's Apple? Do you think he'd be satisfied?

HERTZFELD: Yeah. I think he would be amazed at the financial success. I think he would have some complaints, though, about their recent products.

LEMON: Andy -- like wait a minute, before you go, what products?

HERTZFELD: Well, just some of -- Apple music is an example of one that I think is a bit messed up, or the way you have to charge the new rechargeable mouse, you have to stick the connecter in the bottom so it's unusable.

LEMON: Yeah. Just little things that he would have taken care of?

HERTZFELD: Yeah, just little -- yes, Steve paid huge attention to the smallest details, and you can really see that fading away from Apple a bit since he's been gone.

LEMON: Thank you very much, Andy Hertzfeld. Appreciate it.

HERTZFELD: You're welcome. Happy New Year.

LEMON: Happy New Year to you as well. Steve Jobs; The Man in the Machine airs Sunday -- this Sunda night at 9 Eastern. And we will be right back.


LEMON: This is our last show in 2015. Thanks for watching all of this year, and make sure you are here tomorrow night for New Year's Eve live with Anderson Cooper and Kathy Griffin starting at 8 Eastern.

[23:00:04] And you know Kathy won't ever have anything interesting to say. She won't embarrass poor Anderson. This is, you know, she'll just be a school marm.

But the party doesn't end when the ball drops in Times Square. Make sure you join Brooke Baldwin and I. We're going to be ringing in the new year from New Orleans starting at 12:30.

"AC360" starts right now. See you tomorrow night. Happy new year.