Return to Transcripts main page


Trump: Cruz New York Slam 'Insulting'; Cruz Apologizes To New York - Sort Of; Al-Qaeda Claims Responsibility For Hotel Attack; Report: As Many As 20 Killed In Hotel Attack; 6 Gunmen Storm Hotel, Take Hostages; Obama On The Race; Hewitt: Expecting Open Convention; Iowa Caucuses In 17 Days; Sean Penn Talks About Meeting El Chapo; El Chapo May Be Extradited To U.S.; Never-Before-Seen Film Of Martin Luther King Jr.; 'Sunshine Superman' Tells Story Of Deadly Sport

Aired January 15, 2016 - 21:00   ET



[21:00:09] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: That's all for us. "CNN Tonight" with Don Lemon. Starts now.

DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT HOST: You could say a lot of things about Donald Trump but you better not let him hear you talk trash abut New York.

This is "CNN Tonight", I'm Don Lemon.

Trump not taking Ted Cruz slam on New York values lying down. Listen to what he told our very own Jake Tapper.


DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: I thought it was very, very insulting and I immediately thought of the World Trade Center and the bravery of New Yorkers and the genius of New Yorkers to be able to take that whole section and rebuild after the tragedy, the worst thing that ever happened to our nation in terms of an attack.


LEMON: And Cruz is apologizing sort of in South Carolina tonight.


TED CRUZ, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, you're right, Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton and Andrew Cuomo and Bill de Blasio, you have all demanded an apology and I'm happy to apologize. I apologize to the millions of New Yorkers who have been let down by liberal politicians in that state.


LEMON: If I told you a year ago that the Republican race would come down to Donald Trump versus Ted Cruz, you would never ever have believed me, but that's exactly where we are right now with just 17 days to go until the Iowa caucuses. It is a very busy Friday evening, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us.

But I want begin with some breaking news. It's in al-Qaeda terror attack and we're going to discuss six gunmen storming a hotel full of westerners tonight. Taking hostages and exchanging fire with security forces. Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Maghreb is claiming credit for the attack in the Capital of African Nation of Burkina Faso.

So joining me now to discuss the CNN Correspondent Robyn Kriel, also with us is a Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr. Barbara is going to join us by phone. Robyn, to you first. What's the very latest there? How many are dead and what do we know anything about hostages?

ROBYN KRIEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, from what we understand, Don, is that around 20 people are dead, that's according to multiple media reports according to eyewitness at the scene, as well. The number of dead bodies littering the scenes and a number of people injured being taken to nearby hospitals in ambulances.

Also, what we can tell you is that attackers according to eyewitnesses were light skinned, they were speaking a language not native to Burkina Faso and they were covering their faces. We now understand that al-Qaeda and the Islamic Maghreb has claimed responsibility they are the same group who orchestrated that deadly attack in Bamako Mali in November of last year killing 22 people, very similar hotel attack storming the Radisson Blu in the capital of Mali killing, as I said, 22 people also a hotel very, very popular with westerners.

LEMON: Why this target? Why this target, Robyn?

KRIEL: It would appear that it is specifically targeting a westerners, it's obviously a very high-profile attack its making the rounds and all the international media circuit. They attacked at 8:30 p.m. Burkina Faso time. That's six hours ago. It is just nearing 2:00 a.m. in Burkina Faso so that's six hours of stand off. These attackers if they are from Mali, they were speaking a language as I said not native to Burkina Faso, so they would have traveled there very well orchestrated, as well.

We understand more sophisticated than the initial Radisson Blu attack. So just to be as high profile as possible, also we're hearing that it is possible that French were the targets of this -- at least according to initial reports from site intelligent group saying that France was the target in this attack...

LEMON: And, Robyn.

KRIEL: ... somewhat to the Radisson attack.

LEMON: Robyn, stand by. I want to bring in Barbara Star Starr now with Barbara, with us. Barbara, tell us about any military response to this. What's going on?

BARBARA STARR; CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, it may be the Don, that French Military will take the lead in a military response, but the U.S. very much watching this closely and getting involved. What we now know is that the French have asked the U.S. for assistance in surveillance and recognizance of the site.

The U.S. Military we are now told by defense officials will provide is providing a drone to fly over the site, to have a pair of eyes on what is happening. There are, in fact, about 75 U.S. troops in this country. The majority of them actually do what many troops do now. For that do they provide assistance, advice, training for the French Forces in Burkina Faso and also just general advice and assistance to forces there? We also know that tonight there is at least one U.S. Military member outside the hotel directly on scene providing that advice and assistance.

[21:05:00] And, you know, you -- a lot of people may say why is the U.S. Military in so many locations here in Africa remote from the United States? It's exactly what Robyn was addressing. As these terrorist groups go after western-oriented targets, the concern that they dig in, that they develop safe havens in these areas, the U.S. very much and the French trying to get local security forces trained up, able to deal with these situations so these safe havens don't develop.

LEMON: Right, that's Robyn Kriel and Barbara Starr of Pentagon Correspondent. There against, six gunmen storming a hotel full of westerners in Burkina Faso taking hostages and there are reports as many as 20 people dead. Thanks to both of you.

I want to bring in now CNN Intelligence and Security Analyst, Bob Baer and Counterterrorism Expert, Daveed Gartenstein-Ross. Gentlemen, thank you. Unbelievable story. Glad to have you here.

Bob, I'm going to star with you. You say this attack was long over due and people better wake up. Why is that?

ROBERT BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Well, it's long over due since the fall of Libya. A lot of groups have got weapons that were lost there, anything from surface to air missiles to explosives and the rest of it and these groups from Algeria, from Mali and the rest have been arming themselves and they keep on moving as their push back from in places like Timbuktu in Mali they move to other places.

They're guerilla groups and they have been threatening to attack in West Africa in places like Burkina Faso for a long time and these targets are very vulnerable and they want to hit easy targets and cause the amount of damage they can the number of casualties, the most they can and this is what they've done.

LEMON: Daveed, what can you tell us about al-Qaeda and the Islamic Maghreb the group who has taken responsibility for this attack? What do you know about them?

DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS, FOUNDATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: That group resurged in recent years and recently, you had another group know as Al-Mourabitoun, the group that carried out the Radisson attack in Bamako which had originally broken with al-Qaeda the Islamic Maghreb but remained loyal to al -Qaeda coming back over to al-Qaeda, Islamic Maghreb which adds to its capabilities. And that's significant because Al-Mourabitoun in particular, fit that basically a profile that Robert Baer talked about. They were kind of like Special Forces for al-Qaeda they would go from country to country and execute rather spectacular attacks. This included the attack in Amenas in Eastern Algeria that was an oil facility which occur in January of 2013, the attack in Bamako and other rather high-profile attacks. They're very good at the terrorism game and it seems as though they were involved with in this attack in Burkina Faso as well.

LEMON: OK. So, Bob, we have Turkey, we have Jakarta and then, now this. Are groups trying to one up each other?

BAER: Well, I think what we're seeing more is an offensive. I mean, the Islamic State and al-Qaeda are not that different. I mean, you know, one has a caliphate and the other doesn't. You know, the timing and rest of, these are nuisances that are unimportant. I've been talking to, you know, Jihadi circles for a couple days now and they've been talking about an offensive and you've got the one as you said in Istanbul -- in Turkey and you've got, you know, in Jakarta and now Burkina Faso.

It does seem that their on the move and, you know, the fall of Ramadi had no effect on the Islamic State or other groups or even at the fall of Timbuktu a couple years ago. This people are very mobile, they are guerrilla force. They are committed, they are believers they are very difficult to get inside of and that these alliances change all the time as Daveed said and it's, you know, we don't know where its going to go next. We just know they're going to hit vulnerable targets in West Africa. It's a very dangerous place.

LEMON: Daveed, can I get your response to this? You heard Barbara Starr said the U.S. is worried about safe havens. I mean, how many safe havens are there now? Respond to what she said.

GARTENSTEIN-ROSS: Oh, the amount of safe havens has multiplied exponentially over the course of the past five years. If you look at areas where Jihadist groups absolutely they can be considered legitimate safe haven, this would include Libya where their very much embedded in the way they were before.

You have somebody to safe haven developing in the western part of Tunisia. It isn't fully one but you have a lot of Jihadist activity in that area. Yemen today, Syria and Iraq are quite obviously, Jihadist safe haven. You still have a safe haven for Jihadists in Somalia even though there have been a lot of advances by anti-Shabaab Forces.

And then you have a number of countries in which governance is just threatened where the central government cannot extend its rift throughout the entirety of the country and this provides Jihadists groups and ability to operate. Two other places I should mention are Mali and Nigeria.

LEMON: What do these safe havens Bob, mean to the U.S.? Can they reach the U.S. from these safe havens? BAER: Well, you know, there's a lot of American targets in Africa special place like Nigeria, you know, American businessmen, American oil companies and the rest of it. So, yes we are vulnerable, but I don't think it's a threat to the economy or United States.

[21:10:00] So, I don't see this guys organizing and, you know, attacks in New York or Los Angeles. I just don't see that, not now. But they can destabilize Africa. They are everywhere and they will continue to attack and that the security forces they are very thin and there is no much we do the United States or even France.

LEMON: Bob, Daveed, thank you very much. Robyn, as well and our Barbara Starr, again, we're on top of this breaking news. Make sure you stick with us tonight. The brutal hotel attack, al-Qaeda claiming responsibility for it. We're going to continue to follow.

When we come right back, we're going to talk about the race for the White House of course that includes terror as well. And this, is Trump versus Cruz with 17 days to go until Iowa. That's what's going on now, but why is lady liberty giving Ted Cruz a one-finger solute? Look at your screen. There it is.


LEMON: Ted Cruz speaking at a campaign rally tonight in South Carolina after last night's Trump, Cruz smackdown at the debate. It was good. Did you see it? I know this guy did.

Let's talk about the winners and losers. The losers. My old friend Hugh Hewitt is here. That was good, Hugh, don't you think? I mean Cruz versus Trump was pretty good.

HUGH HEWITT, THE HUGH HEWITT SHOW HOST: I loved every minute of it. I think the only person who really lost last night was Dr. Carson, he kind of evaporated but I do believe the gold's go jointly to Marco Rubio and Donald Trump. Donald Trump just had a moment that people remember for a very long period of time.

[21:15:05] Ted Cruz, though, I got an e-mail from a supporter today Don, that said, he did exactly what he set out to do to remind his troops in Iowa and New Hampshire and South Carolina that he is the real deal, Evangelical candidate who represents all three branches of the Republican coalition, all three parts of this all.

LEMON: And he's not afraid to take on Trump.

HEWITT: And, oh, he is, their -- their, we're going to have, I've used this analogy so much it old. Ali-Frazier fought three fights.

LEMON: Why you're taking my question, that was my question to you that you compared it to Ali-Frazier. Is that was the rumble in the jungle? Was that the...

HEWITT: No, the ramble in the jungle was Foreman...

LEMON: Foreman. OK. HEWITT: Thriller in Manila is '75, but they fought three times, '71, '74, '75.

LEMON: All right.

HEWITT: Frazier won the first, Ali won two.

LEMON: So you said is was that, what moment do you say that Trump, was it the one where he talked about New York values? Is that the moment you're talking?

HEWITT: New York Values. Because every...

LEMON: So what do yo9u make of this? I don't know if you can see this cover. This is the New York Daily.

HEWITT: Oh, I do. I saw that today.

LEMON: So that was sort of the moment and then cover came after where it says, drop dead Ted stand, you know, the Statute of Liberty giving him the finger. So, why do you say that was a winning moment?

HEWITT: Because for Donald Trump it goes right over the heads of everyone else out there in the chattering class and says I was in New York when New York was attacked and I came back like the city came back.

At the same time Ted Cruz says New York is Manhattan, New York is pro same sex marriage, it does not concern itself with unborn children, is concern itself with big federal government, large spending and lots of taxes. So they both win.

Here's the guy I watch though when I had him on the show today, Marco Rubio he conducted a general election campaign last night, he went after your favorite and mine, Mrs. Clinton. He did so again on my show again tonight and he's saying to voters, they are having a lot of fun, Cruz and Rubio. Are they terrific, but when it comes time to beating Mrs. Clinton, vote for me.

And by the way your earlier segment, with Robert Baer and Daveed, that was a Chris Christie commercial. The more that that goes on in America, the more that they've seen in worry about that. Chris Christie stock rises. So this is a wide open race. We're going to Cleveland.

LEMON: That was -- the one time I have to say when it was barely appropriate to bring up Hillary Clinton. So, I will give your props on that one. Hey, let's talk more about this Trump versus Cruz thing.

HEWITT: All right.

LEMON: I want you to listen to. This is what Donald Trump told Jake Tapper. Listen.


TRUMP: The Canadian citizen until 15 months ago, I mean if you can believe that.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: He had dual citizenship. Yeah.

TRUMP: Yeah. But was the Canadian citizen and 15 months ago.

TAPPER: He says he didn't know.

TRUMP: He didn't know. He didn't know? Well, he didn't know about his financial paper is either. You know, how are you going to be president if you don't know about $1 million loan from Goldman Sachs and you said it's something you don't know about? Now, he doesn't know that he was a Canadian citizen. I mean that's in a way maybe worse than all of the other things.


LEMON: So Hugh, I know you don't think you think this birther issue is a non-issue but what about the questions object the Cruz finances? Do you think that's an issue?

HEWITT: Well, yes, it is and he answered it. The politics of his birth is not a non-issue. The legality of it is a non-issue. I happen to have a law partner his name is Judge Stephen Larson, he said in the Federal District Court, he is a former prosecutor. He was just at the Supreme Court last month, he's a very smart guy.

So I called up Stephen Larson yesterday and said, is there anything to this at all? Because the law professors all agree with one exception that no, there isn't and the judge said no one can bring a case against Ted Cruz if they do sue them, they will be thrown out for standing grounds technical. If they didn't get thrown out and they got a crazy secretary of state somewhere they would lose on political question doctrine. I believe Judge Larson.

Now, having said that, Donald Trump knows how to punch harder than anybody in politics and when he brings that up, he keeps Ted Cruz off of his game and in Iowa, it's all about energizing people into believing one of two things, that you best represent what they stand for or that you can beat Hillary Clinton.

And I think Marco Rubio is playing the second half of the game and that Cruz and Trump are going to slug it out for the next month in an epic confrontation and by the way, we're going to Cleveland, Don. Get your hotel room for two weeks. It will be an open convention.

I'll call my travel agent. I want you to listen to the president though, because the president weighed in on this current race today. Look.


BARACK OBAMA, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA PRESIDENT: The closer you get to actually deciding on a president, everybody gets a little more sober. It's less entertainment and it's a little more...

UNINDENTIFIED MALE: I like that. OBAMA: You know, this is serious business, this person has going to have the nuclear code. A lot of times is like the comment section or, you know, trolling.

UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Very familiar with the comment section.

OBAMA: Where people just feel like they can vent without really thinking about what they say ahead of time.


LEMON: Hugh, I know that you pretty much agree with the president all the time. That's sarcasm. But is he right that this race could change when voters get closer to actually going in there and then pulling the lever or punching or whatever they do?

HEWITT: OK. Frame in this the president is right. There, I said it once in seven and a half years.

[21:20:01] President Obama is absolutely right that voting becomes very personal, very quickly, especially against the backdrop. You have a hotel massacre in Africa, but we have a hotel massacre or a recreational, or a vocational center massacre in a room in which I appeared in which one of my law student brother was slain three weeks ago.

Voting becomes very personal when people are afraid, when they're concerned about the market dropping 390 points, when they're concern about the Chinese stock market losing 18 percent a value and the American market losing 8 percent.

President Obama is a disaster. ObamaCare premiums, when they get their premium check, 30 percent, Don in Virginia, 30 percent hike.

They're going to turn the Republican field and say who is most concerned with my problems and who can beat the formidable Hillary Clinton?

That's why Marco Rubio was attacking her with a hammer last night and again on my radio show today and this will go on and I think the race will reset three or four times as these issues, the president is right. People get very sober as they get very close to voting.

LEMON: I think only three references to Hillary Clinton and maybe 10 to Marco Rubio. So, pretty much on part for Hugh Hewitt.

HEWITT: And so, all four Chris Christie and Jeb Bush climbed back into the ring last night.

LEMON: And you said the president was right. I mean, we are going to mark this. Social media people please put this out right away, Hugh Hewitt to Hugh Hewitt's Twitter. Thank you Hugh, have a good weekend.

HEWITT: You too, Don. Thanks for having me.

LEMON: I want to bring in now Ben Ferguson, Conservative Radio talk show host and also Andy Dean, a Trump supporter. McKay Coppins is also here. He's the author of "Wilderness: Deep inside the Republican Party's Combative, Contentious Chaotic Quest to Take Back the White House" and that's all the time we have since McKay's book titled...

MCKAY COPPINS, SENIOR WRITER: Come on you on just to make you read the title.

LEMON: Jeezz, goodness. Could you come up with a longer think for a book? You wrote a piece in "Buzz Feed" where you said it was an amazing headline news, you use sort of the Trumpacalype, is that what you?

COPPINS: Trumpacalypse.

LEMON: Exactly.

COPPINS: I believed that was a homepage headline.

LEMON: The anti-Trump cavalry that never came. So, did it come last night?

COPPINS: No, it didn't. I mean, you have to remember that for months and months, the Republican establishment and some on the far right that believed Trump isn't a real conservative have said for months that if Trump didn't flame out on his own, if his campaign didn't melt down on its own, then before we ever got close to Iowa, you know, a cavalry of super pacts and conservative groups would carpet bomb the early primary states with attack ads and make sure -- basically chase trump out of the race before we got, you know, a vote was ever cast.

That didn't happen and in fact we're in a bizarre situation right now where campaigns are spending millions of dollars to attack each other and not a single dollar is being spent against the front runner.

LEMON: Can I challenge the premises of your...


LEMON: Because I think the cavalry came, and now you see it. That's one of those words that I get wrong usually say...

COPPINS: Calvary?

LEMON: Calvary that it's -- Yeah. Now, I screwed myself up and will say it wrong. But I think it did come. I think the cavalry did come, but Donald Trump just beat them.

COPPINS: But where is the money then? Why isn't any money be -- and money millions of dollars being spent to attack Chris Christie, Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush.


LEMON: Because they don't know how to do it. They came but they don't know how to do it and he has out with him -- go ahead. Who is that talking? Ferguson?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: One of the most brilliant things that I think Donald Trump did early on was he lowered the bar so low. Do you remember when he first came on the stage, it was like "Touch my hair, is it real? Do I get botox or do I not get botox?" For goodness sake.

He lowered his own bar to the point where people like, he's going to flame out. He's going to say something crazy and people will going to hold him accountable for it.

LEMON: Is that lowering the bar? Let me ask you this Ben Ferguson.


LEMON: Hold on, Ben. Is that lowering the bar...

FERGUSON: Then kill.

LEMON: ... or is that, thank you so much, I appreciate that. Or is he just being authentic whether you agree with him or not? He's not in it.

FERGUSON: No, I think he lowered the bar and he knew what he was doing and then all of a sudden, he was really good at throwing punches at other candidates and so that was where the shock came in.

It was this, first this is a joke. He's not really going to run. He's not going to release his financial statements and then he was running and then all of a sudden, no one knew how to take him on.

Remember, the first person really take him on was Jeb Bush. He got the living crap beat out of him by Donald Trump as he deserved to get beaten up the way that that would down.

But instead of everyone kind of coming together and going after Donald Trump. Everyone was so afraid to go toe to toe with him because he is the best trash talker I've ever seen in politics and he can come back at, we even saw some on that last night.

Ted Cruz is very good, but Donald Trump on the New York issues a great point where he smacked him around a little bit, that's why people are afraid.

LEMON: All right. Andy, get in here.


LEMON: How do you turn that into votes, whether they're under estimating him, over estimating, how do you turn this into vote?

DEAN: Well, what Ben saying this low bar thing is very bizarre. I mean, Ben Ferguson and I were on CNN five, six months ago and he said Trump was a clown, Trump was aside show. Ben Ferguson dedicates the hours of his radio show to try to get attention by hating Donald Trump and it hasn't worked. [21:25:04] Donald trump's been a gate to gate...

FERGUSON: ... Andy, you might need to listen to my show a lot...

LEMON: Not Ben, let him talk.

DEAN: Ben, I actually -- it's true, I really don't listen. It's unbearable. But Ben, let me tell you this, OK. There's a reason why Donald Trump's has been a gate to gate winner is because the American people want somebody competent in Washington D.C.

They want somebody who's run companies, who is a billionaire and that's something to be proud of because the guy knows how to get deals done and we need somebody that in the White House that can do that.

And Obama's incompetence has led to the rise of Donald Trump. And it's not about setting a low bar or calling Donald Trump a clown. It's about realizing after six months that the American people are right. And Donald Trump...

LEMON: There are people will say, also, the incompetence of the Republican Party as well that there ineffectual and they're good.

COPPINS: True. Well, this is what I want to ask you Andy, because it is remarkably you have to admit that Donald Trump is not being -- is not the subject of any attack ads, it's not the subject of any -- and most of the candidates aside from Jeb Bush are ignoring him as well.

Why do you think that is? Is it that the Republican Party is scared of him?

DEAN: No, there's an easy answer for this. First, Jeb Bush spent $50 million on all sorts of ads, attack ads throwing anything against the wall including the kitchen sink and he's at 4 percent, 5 percent in the polls because nobody likes Jeb Bush because he's low energy.

I mean, Donald Trump with two words calling Jeb Bush low energy did more than $50 million in spending and why is that? Because Donald Trump cuts through, he gets it and the American people...

FERGUSON: I think that the candidates are scared of that.


LEMON: Let Ben talk. Imagine that, go ahead, Ben.

FERGUSON: Look, there's a lot of people that like Donald Trump. There's a lot of people that like the bluntness. I think that's why he's done so well is that people are sick and tired of establishment candidates.

And let's be clear, the reason why Jeb Bush didn't do well is not because Donald Trump said he's low energies, because he's the establishment pick just like Don, John McCain, just like Mitt Romney. He was a terrible candidate. He has been. He looks stiff and awkward on stage. So, let's not act like somehow that was just... DEAN: But that's logic Ben, doesn't make sense.


FERGUSON: Let me finish. People did not like Jeb Bush early on. There is an anger and frustration out there by conservatives. That's why Donald Trump's doing so well. We can both agree on that.

The question is can he bring other people on board or is he going to have a max out point, which is where he is now? Yeah, you might be able to get the nomination but can you win the general election. That's the question I think is, can he start to bring people along that he started to rip on the entire campaign.

LEMON: Everyone said he's at a max out. I've heard that months ago, I've heard of...

DEAN: Right. Thank you Don. I like this, Don. It's nice to have CNN defend Trump.

LEMON: No, I'm not defending Trump, I'm just telling you the reality of it. And that...

COPPINS: I'm traded right now that Don Lemon, is about to endorse Donald Trump.

LEMON: No, here's what happens.

DEAN: Yeah.



LEMON: I have sat here five nights a week and talked about Donald Trump and I've heard person after person, pundit after pundit say, "Oh, you know what, Donald Trump is max out. He's a clown, he's not going to do it." And he has defied the conventional wisdom and he is still in the game. That's why I say -- I almost want to take a bet with Ben on it just because...

DEAN: Don that will going to make you an Ambassador, Don. When Trump wins, I'll be Chief of Staff, you're the Ambassador.

LEMON: I think I'm good right now.

DEAN: Pick a country.

LEMON: I'm good with CNN Tonight with Don Lemon. But thank you very much, Andy. I appreciate it. And I can't believe that Ben is taking high road about the radio show jab.

FERGUSON: Well, mine is still on the air and Andy's got cancelled. Live with that.

DEAN: No, I walked away to make a lot more money. LEMON: Oh, wow.

FERGUSON: There you go. All right. They didn't...

LEMON: OK. We got to run, we got to run, we got to run.

COPPINS: If anyone wants to give me a radio show, you know, just call me. I'm on Twitter.

LEMON: I wish I had some popcorn. I would just sit here and eat it and let the show continue until 10:00. Thank you guys. Appreciate it.

Donald Trump talks with Jake Tapper on Sunday morning. Make sure you watch, so that you can see the full interview State of the Union. Also sitting down with Jake is Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders at Sunday morning, 9:00 Eastern and Pacific. State of the Union with Mr. Jake Tapper.

Up next, actor Sean Penn speaking out about his interview with El Chapo, the Mexican drug lord why he says Mexico's claims about the interview are wrong.


[21:33:00] LEMON: Actor Sean Penn is talking about his remarkable interview with drug kingpin "El Chapo" Guzman. Who was recaptured last week by Mexican authorities, been categorically denies that his meeting with El Chapo helped lead to the drug lord's arrest. On top of this -- talk with if my lips will work, Chris Brancato co-creator of the Narcos, the Netflix series about another drug lord, Pablo Escobar, the perfect person to talk to.

Good evening, sir. So you have done a lot of research on all of this. What did you make of El Chapo's arrest and that it may be hinged on the actions of these two actors?

CHRIS BRANCATO, CO-CREATOR OF NARCOS SERIES: Well, with the amount of time and money they were spending they try to catch El Chapo whose second escape from a maximum-security prison was an embarrassment to the government. I figured they get around to it. One time or another and whether -- Penn denies any involvement in the actual tracking, or in other words, denies that his interview with El Chapo is responsible for that and quite, you know, honestly, El Chapo was caught in a completely different region and my guess is that Mr. Penn is right, that they were tracking him. The Mexican Intelligence and DEA are quite on top of it and they don't need Sean Penn to help catch El Chapo.

LEMON: Well, Sean Penn is speaking out for the first time since his interview with El Chapo and he's making some pretty heavy allegations against the Mexican government. Take a look at this.


SEAN PENN, HOLLYWOOD CELEBRITY: We know that the Mexican government, they were clearly very humiliated by the notion that someone found him before they did. Well, nobody found him before they did. We're not smarter than the DEA or the Mexican Intelligence. We had a contact upon which we were able to facilitate an invitation.

CHARLIE ROSE, CBS, THIS MORNING, CO-HOST: Do you believed that the Mexican government released this in part because they wanted to see you blamed and to put you at risk?

[21:35:04] PENN: Yes.

ROSE: They wanted to encourage the cartel to put you in their cross hairs?

PENN: Yes.

ROSE: Are you fearful for your life?



LEMON: Should he be worried about his safety?

BRANCATO: Well, I think, I can't speak to what the Mexican government's statements were to Mr. Penn (inaudible).

LEMON: We lost our guest Chris Brancato there speaking out about "El Chapo" and also, about Sean Penn's interview with "60 Minutes" but again you heard our Charlie Rose ask him just directly if he believed the Mexican government put him in a position to be in the cross hairs of the cartels and he said absolutely and they also asked him if he had any regrets. Let's listen to this Charlie Rose interview.


ROSE: You have said to the A.P. and I'm asking now, you have no regrets?

PENN: You know, I have terrible regret.

ROSE: What are the regrets?

PENN: I have a regret that the entire discussion about this article ignores its purpose, which was to try to contribute to this discussion about the policy on the war on drugs.


LEMON: All right Chris is back with me. Had a little glitch with the satellite there. So Chris, let's talk about that. The war on drugs, will "El Chapo's" arrest help the problem here?

BRANCATO: Well, I think it will be the same situation that we saw with Escobar in Colombia in the '80s, which is to say that these men as Mr. Penn says in his interview are figure heads, they are the big guys. It gets headlines when you catch an "El Chapo" or you kill Pablo Escobar, but important fact the drug trafficking is an enormous business that involves thousands and thousands and thousands of people and so that catching the figure head just creates an empty seat at the top which often times leads to more violence at the bottom and I think Mr. Penn's point is that we have to examine the war on drugs as something that involves two countries, the U.S. and Mexico and also involves supplier and consumer.

LEMON: Yeah, and also -- I mean, the Colombia is in there, as well, because people feel like these cartels are far away in Mexico or Colombia with actually directly or indirectly reach into every town and city in America, don't they?

BRANCATO: Yeah, they do and part of the whole discussion about Mr. Trump in your last segment is the border and ever since the NAFTA Free Trade Agreement, we've opened our boarders to an enormous amount of legitimate trade with Mexico and plenty of trucks that cross our border with elicit substances.

LEMON: So your Netflix show, I mean I think it proves that there is unsensational appetite for this kind of story. Why do you think that is?

BRANCATO: Well, it's got all the requisite elements. It's got kingpins, it's got glamour, it's got untold amounts of money. It's sexy to some degree, though, obviously, there is an enormous cost of drug addiction and there's a dark and horrible side to it all. But I think there is always fascination with gangsters be there of any stripe and certainly these men lead very, very larger than life existence's and they walk a tight rope between life and death and it's pretty fascinating.

LEMON: Chris Brancato, thank you. Chris is the executive producer of "Kings and Profits" on ABC, the series premieres on March 8th. Again thanks, to Chris Brancato we appreciate it.

Coming up, it is been almost 48 years since the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. but now, never before seen footage of the civil rights leader is being unveiled right here on this show. And you're going to see it next.


[21:43:08] LEMON: Happy birthday to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Today is his birthday. The guiding spirit of the Civil Rights Movement would have been 87 years old. But now almost 48 years after his assassination, new footage of Dr. King is being revealed and it's going to happen here on this show.

So, joining me now, the man who is bringing that footage to light, filmmaker and collector, Mr. Keya Morgan. Good to see you. How you doing?

KEYA MORGAN, FILMMAKER COLLECTOR: You too. Good to see you Don. Doing great.

LEMON: So, tell me about the story behind the video. Who shot it and where?

MORGAN: Yeah. Well, well, it was shot by a gentleman in Atlanta, Georgia who basically went and stood behind this church, you know, that Dr. King used to go to. And sort of, you know, in a paparazzi style waited for him to come out and the minute he came out, he basically, you know, jumped out and asked Dr. King some questions and then he tried to get it on air but they did not really want it on air during that time because they were like, ''You know, this Dr. King guy is just a troublemaker". And they didn't know how long he would be, you know, basically lasting.

And, you know, actually, he told me that the media that time down south told him that we don't want this "N" word on air anymore. So it never went on air and it was a 16 millimeter that just sat in a, you know, capsule basically, the past almost 50 years.


MORGAN: It was shot in 1965 so it's -- what is that? Like 51 years almost now.

LEMON: OK. So, here we go, because I don't want to keep people waiting any longer.


LEMON: We're going to play a portion of it now. Here it is.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you feel that Stokely Carmichael's recent statements have split the civil rights movement?

DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING JR., CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT ACTIVIST: Well, I don't want to engage in a public debate with Mr. Carmichael.

[21:45:04] And therefore, I don't go to the point of saying any one man can split the Civil Rights Movement.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. King, in light of the recent statements made, by Smith, would you consider marching side by side with them in one of the civil rights demonstrations?

KING: Well, it depends. I feel that the time has come for the civil rights movement and all of the organizations in that movement to sit down in a summit conference to asses not only our gains but to discuss our philosophical differences. I would like to say that we have come to the point where there has this split in the civil rights movement. I would hope that we could find some common ground and that we could see that we're moving toward the same goals and work therein.

I do feel, though, that if there are such philosophical differences that they are totally enthetically then it would be difficult for us to continue to work together.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: All right. That is the first time that is been seen and again, this is exclusive to CNN. And Keya I want to thank you for that. He's talking about Stokely Carmichael. There is historical significance to this. Explain to our audience what he's talking about there.

MORGAN: Well I mean, Dr. King was the symbol of love and peace and Stokely Carmichael was, you know, the leader of the black power and then later Black Panther movement and one is sort of like yin, the other one is yang. You know, one is all about love and peace. The other one is really saying let's fight for our rights and honestly, I could understand both sides because there was such great oppression in this nation at that time. There were so much racism, there were so many problems and something had to be done. One way or another.

And it's sad that, you know, it's still continuing until today. I cannot believe in 2016 we still have so many problems with racism. Its mind boggling...

LEMON: Yeah.

MORGAN: ... to me, but I love the fact that we had a profit like Dr. Martin Luther King, you know, that graced us with his presence.

LEMON: Now that you have revealed this, Keya, what do you hope happens next with this video?

MORGAN: Well, we would like to basically sell the video and have it donated to the Civil Rights Museum maybe, you know, at the Lorraine Motel where he was shot or the national archives. So, you know, it is available for sale and whoever wants it could buy it, either and have it in their collection or what I'm praying for is it somebody buys it and donates it to one of the big institutions and that's where it really belongs. I mean you know, it's like having a tape of Abraham Lincoln speaking. I mean who is bigger than Dr. King?

You know, I can't think of anyone bigger than Dr. King. So it's really like Dr. King speaking from the grave and here we have this unique footage. So it's very exciting. I mean, I had goose bumps when I saw it. I really, you know, it is so clear and so sharp and he basically, you know, I feel there's a light illuminating from him he was such a peaceful loving guy, you know, and today we see...

LEMON: It is amazing that from 1965, I mean this video has been sitting in basically in someone's basement or someone's attic and then now, you know, you have found it and here we are in 2016 on his birthday. I'm just honored that you allowed us to show it exclusively. You're going to show to other places that coming soon.

MORGAN: Thank you.

LEMON: But it's amazing...

MORGAN: My pleasure.

LEMON: It's a great video and Keya Morgan, thank you so much. There it is Dr. King...

MORGAN: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: ... back in 1965. We will be right back and again our thanks to Keya Morgan.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. King in the light of the recent.


[21:52:26] LEMON: All right, your going to watch this, because I can't believe and you may not have heard of it but BASE jumping could be the deadliest sport on the planet. This Sunday, CNN Films tells a story of the man who risked everything when he invented it. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As the equipment got better and word spread about this thing, then the numbers began really exaggerating, there it became a worldwide thing, not just the United States or not just Texas or California.



LEMON: So, joining me now is a man who knows all there is to know about this sport thing. He is Sean Chuma, he's a professional of a BASE Jumper and stunt man and as I said, you've got to be the bravest or the craziest or both that the person that I know to do this, I mean why would anyone want to do this?

SEAN CHUMA, PROFESSIONAL BASE JUMPER AND STUNT MAN: I just like to have fun. So I mean, that's why I do it and I always wanted to fly. I wore a cape when I was a little kid all the time, you know, trying to be superman. And it's just, you know, I want to fly. I like to be off the ground.

LEMON: Is it called BASE jumping because you jump from stationary things relevant from an airplane, it is based buildings, antennas, spans, earth, is that why it's called that?

CHUMA: Yes, so it was -- it's jumping off fixed objects. And there's just kind of categorization of that stuff, there's is also an "O" in there too for other.

LEMON: Yeah. Do you actually, you said you feel like your flying. Do actually feel like you are flying? Because I'm just trying to figure out we're talking a group of us before we came on air, said, why on earth anybody would do? Do you must -- there must to be this unbelievable feeling that you're flying in order to get people to do that? CHUMA: Well, I mean, you feel like you're flying when you wear a wing suit and when you are flying in the parachute. And if your, don't have either one of those, right you just falling it going to feels like you are flying straight down.

LEMON: Yeah. It's much more dangerous than jumping out of an airplane, correct?

CHUMA: Yeah, it's kind of a little more risky because you only got one parachute instead of two.

LEMON: So let's talk about the wing suits. What is going on there? Because when I see these guys and they're going between two rocks or two mountains and I mean, you have to be spot on or it's going to hurt a lot or worse.

[21:55:08] CHUMA: Yeah, you definitely you want to be precise on that so. It just takes a lot of practice, you know, like people start out of airplanes and they do, you know, a couple hundred at least and really get used to the wing suit and then a lot of -- you know, there's all kinds of different wing suits to use as well. But you have to tune your body to just be very precise doing that before you start taking it to BASE jumping.

You know, once you go to BASE. jumping, you know, there's some jumps that are harder than others. And you know, some of them are a little bit easier. So you want to start on the easier ones and then, you know, you can move on and then it's fun to start flying closer to the ground.

But, you know, you have to always remember that it's not a video game like, you know.

LEMON: Yeah.

CHUMA: Like some people might think it is. It's all about precision.

LEMON: Yeah. You know what, I'll try almost anything, you know, snow boarding, everything I ride skateboards, whatever. But this one you can have.

Sean Chuma, thank you -- professional BASE jumper, thank you very much and stuntman.

And remember CNN films, "Sunshine Superman" premiers Sunday night at 9:00 Eastern. We will be right back.