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Saving Schengen; Taking on ISIS in Afghanistan; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired January 21, 2016 - 14:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: just weeks to save Schengen, Europe's open border system?
That dire warning here in Davos today from the Dutch prime minister.
I'll get reaction from the E.U.'s foreign policy chief to that and to the Iran breakthrough.
Plus: a warning from Afghanistan; the president tells me that Al Qaeda is rising again as well as the Taliban and ISIS.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHRAF GHANI, PRESIDENT OF AFGHANISTAN: Regional terrorism and international terrorism is within our life. And we are fighting on behalf
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And "The Naked Chef" on a crusade against obesity. Jamie Oliver says go ahead, have that piece of cake and that ice cream.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMIE OLIVER, CHEF: We've known that they were indulgent and if you overindulge, there is a cost to that. But in the food industry the
metaphors of salt, fat and sugar get kind of hidden and lost.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program, I'm Christiane Amanpour, live at the World Economic Forum in Davos.
Six weeks to save Schengen: that is the warning from the Dutch prime minister today as the E.U. wages a losing batting, perhaps, to control the
movement of refugees across its borders.
It's dominating the agenda here at Davos. Speaking at a session earlier today, the Dutch leader Mark Rutte said that European countries
have limited time left to deal with this crisis.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK RUTTE, DUTCH PRIME MINISTER: We can not cope with the numbers any longer so we have to get a grip on this. So this is the immediate
agenda for the next six to eight weeks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Europe's failure to get a grip on the refugee crisis is down to its failure to unite. Few understand the delicate diplomacy better
than my guest, the E.U. foreign policy chief, Federica Mogherini, who joins me live here.
Thank you for joining me.
FEDERICA MOGHERINI, E.U. HIGH REPRESENTATIVE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Thank you, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: And 35,000 refugees came to Europe this month alone, compared to 1,600 January last year.
As the Dutch prime minister says, we can't carry on like this.
How are you going to agree to get a grip, as he said?
MOGHERINI: We have already agreed among Europeans.
AMANPOUR: So what's the problem?
MOGHERINI: What's the problem is that we moved late. For years, some were saying this is coming, this is coming from Africa through Libya, this
is coming from Syria through Turkey or elsewhere.
And the first European reaction was, this is up to the member states to deal with that. Only this year, last year, 2015, there was the first
European reaction where we put forward a set of proposals that finally, over months, were taken on board, decided upon and now they're slowly being
We're going too slow but we are finally there because finally we realize that either we have a European response or we don't have a
AMANPOUR: So being there, what does that mean?
Because as I said, 35,000 have already come to Europe and the Dutch prime minister is warning that -- I mean, he uses the six to eight weeks
because of when spring comes presumably and when another flood is expected.
Is Schengen in doubt, in grave danger tonight?
MOGHERINI: It is but we have to save it because Europeans have achieved a lot. They don't even remember anymore how it was before
Schengen, before Europe was a union and we have to preserve this for us and for the next generations.
But when I say we are there, finally, it means that we're finally united on first supporting refugees where they are close to home in Turkey,
in Jordan, in Lebanon, inside Syria.
We have millions of Syrians internally displaced and it's the European Union that is providing support, humanitarian aid, allowing people not to
die for starvation and trying to put an end to the war.
In this respect, we are today much more united and active than we used to be one year ago, two years ago. Today, Europe has built its own
unity and also the unity of the international community.
The Americans, the Russians, the United Nations, the region, finally trying to find a solution to the war because, at the end of the day, this
will stop the flow.
AMANPOUR: Well, you're talking about the end of the war.
Do you think the peace talks will go ahead?
I've spoken to Staffan de Mistura, the special Syria envoy for the U.N. And he has not been able to yet send out the invitations.
What are we talking about?
Secretary Kerry said today that, yes, the date may slip a little but people are committed to those talks.
MOGHERINI: I believe people are committed to the talks. It's the first time --
MOGHERINI: -- after five years of war that we have political will in the region, united on the Iranian side, on the Saudi side, on the Turk
side, on the Egyptian or other Arab friends' side and the big international community, uniting on a road map, on a vision.
You cannot expect that the international community finds its unity in December and the Syrians come to the table easily one month later;
obviously there are difficulties. But I believe that there is a chance for the Syrians to start the talks, to start the transition, to work on a
different constitution, to work on elections and to unite forces inside Syria and in the region against daish.
That is, at the end of the day, what we're talking about. So I am confident that the new regional cooperation that could come, especially
after the Iranian deal, could pave the way for a political solution --
AMANPOUR: So you obviously have high hopes for what happens because of the Iranian deal. You went to Tehran shortly after -- as implementation
day was being organized.
What about the fight between Iran and Saudi Arabia?
MOGHERINI: That is something extremely serious. It is, I believe, not a religious issue but a political one, a bilateral tension between two
countries that are very relevant.
AMANPOUR: -- competing for influence in that --
MOGHERINI: -- competing for influence in the region and far beyond because both are points of connection with other regions. Think of the Red
Sea and the Horn of Africa and the Sahel on one side and Afghanistan and Asia on the other.
So we're talking about something big. What we are trying to pass as a message to both Iran and Saudi Arabia, which are both countries with whom
we have good relations as Europeans, is to contain the tension, not to allow the tension to spill over to other conflicts or to stop or endanger
the possibility of having, for instance, the Syrian talks proceeding or, even worse, to destabilize further countries like Iraq or Lebanon that
could be at stake if this tension is not contained and diminished.
AMANPOUR: You mentioned Russia. An independent British report today said that most likely President Putin approved the murder, the poisoning of
Litvinenko in London a few years ago, the polonium poisoning.
Do you find that a credible report?
Does that affect the E.U.'s foreign policy?
Does it affect how deal with President Putin and Russia?
MOGHERINI: I would not comment on a report that I have not seen and that I know the British authorities are looking at and following up. So I
would not comment on that.
Our relations with Russia are on -- especially on the crisis in Ukraine and the need to implement fully the Minsk agreement exactly as they
were one year ago. You know, our sanctions are still in place, they were just extended in December.
But we do cooperate with Russia on other issues like in the Iranian deal, on the Middle East, on Syria, on Libya, on migration --
AMANPOUR: A quick question about Britain and Brexit. That's also dominating this, the French prime minister, the German finance minister
today called the possibility of a Brexit a tragedy, a disaster.
Can Britain get a deal with the E.U. that would satisfy -- ?
MOGHERINI: I think it can. I think it can. If we manage to have an Iranian deal done, I think we can make it also for the U.K. to stay in the
European Union and to have the citizens of the U.K. making their sovereign choice that we will, in any case, respect but with a view of hope of the
fact that they're being part of something big, as the European Union is adding value to their own daily life.
And, by the way, the U.K. is a key player in the European Union foreign policy. So for me and for the European Union foreign policy, it
would be a big loss.
AMANPOUR: Frederica Mogherini, E.U. foreign policy chief, thank you so much for joining me tonight in cold and snowy Davos.
And from one of Europe's power women to the others left behind. The World Economic Forum released its global gender gap report this week,
finding that women are a decade behind when it comes to pay, only now earning the same as men did in 2006 for the same work.
And as the great and the good highlight the gender gap once again, we take a moment to highlight the gender gap right here at this year's forum.
Many of the main panels either had no women or one token women as a meager 17 percent of those at this year's summit are women. It is higher
than previous years but still a rather damning indictment of how long it seems to be taking to get parity at the top.
And when we come back, Afghanistan's president, Ashraf Ghani, tells me what he's doing for women in his country. That's next.
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
(INAUDIBLE). That is how Afghanistan's president described President Obama's order to the Pentagon to go after ISIS in his country.
Ashraf Ghani says that in the last five days the militant group is on the run since the U.S. has stepped up their attacks and that is as the
Afghan network, TOLO TV, has been rocked by the killing of seven of its employees in a suicide attack on Wednesday. The Taliban have claimed
But Afghanistan also faces a rising threat from Al Qaeda. I put all this to President Ghani when I sat down with him earlier.
AMANPOUR: Mr. President, welcome to the program.
Did you ever think when you took power, when you were elected president, that things would unravel and get more violent so rapidly?
GHANI: Well, thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you.
We simultaneously faced four transitions equally: daish, which I first predicted and, at that time, was greeted with disbelief, became
active. And there was an attempt to test our will for survival. So we literally were facing the battle of survival.
But where I would respectfully change the word, we were confronted with violence but we did not allow things to unravel. Because if you look
at the price, what was the price? To create two political geographies in Afghanistan.
That we have denied. But the sacrifice that we have endured has been immense and it was unnecessary because from day one, my argument was that
we need to bring the region together to focus on the regional and global threats and that we needed to engage in peace.
AMANPOUR: The White House has now given the Pentagon the authority to actually go after ISIS in Afghanistan. You once quoted -- you said, "If Al
Qaeda is Windows 1.0, daish is Windows 7.0."
How will this new authority by the U.S. forces in Afghanistan change the dynamic on the ground?
GHANI: It has. In the last five days daish, in the province of Nangarhar, is on the run. Thousands of people who were displaced from
their homes, the Shinwari, were some of the most valiant people. And the atrocities that were committed on these people, are unspeakable: children
killed in front of their mothers, mothers blown up, grandfathers, et cetera.
We are in the -- already starting to drive them out and this -- we welcome this. And it's a very, very good decision.
AMANPOUR: You've got, on the one hand, the United States has identified -- and I'm sure you have as well -- the reemergence of Al Qaeda.
Recently they found a 30-square-mile Al Qaeda, hitherto, secret camp in Afghanistan.
At the same time, you have Taliban attacks. You have the rise of ISIS. You have, you know, the Taliban sweeping through places like Kunduz
and others and taking the kind of territory they haven't had in years.
What is the security requirement of Afghanistan to face those multiple threats?
GHANI: Well, first, they're a sense of these threats --
GHANI: -- that have nothing to do with us. They're transplanted onto us.
AMANPOUR: Yes, but they are happening in your country --
GHANI: No, I'm bringing this because it's the question of shared responsibility.
In the big Shanghai conference, I asked the question, who are the terrorists?
They come from Russia. They come from China. They come from Uzbekistan. They come from Tajikistan. They come from Pakistan. And they
come from the Middle East, Arab Middle East.
These people have no quarrel with the people of Afghanistan but they're using our territory. Conclusion: regional terrorism and
international terrorism is within our life and we are fighting on behalf of everyone.
Second, Al Qaeda has reemerged. At the beginning of 2015, there was the optimistic assumption that Al Qaeda was degraded. Now it's not.
President Obama made a very principled decision for which we are grateful in Europe again.
AMANPOUR: That's to continue --
GHANI: To continue --
GHANI: -- engagement.
AMANPOUR: Is that enough, Mr. President? Because we've been through this -- I mean, I've been through this with you all since 2001 and before.
And we had first a big presence and then a constant threat or policy to pull this presence and reduce this presence.
And now in the face of the security reality, the president is saying, oh, no, OK. We'll keep 9,800 for the rest of this year, 5,000 so much
onwards. Many people are just saying that's not enough.
GHANI: We should not get bogged down in numbers but in capabilities. With the right set of capabilities, our fundamental issue is airpower.
What we have demonstrated --
AMANPOUR: That means you need more airpower?
GHANI: We need more air --
AMANPOUR: Because airpower has been decreasing --
AMANPOUR: -- and your previous commander there, Gen. Petraeus, has said there needs to be more airpower -- is he right?
GHANI: He is right because what do we have that others don't have?
We have one of the best special forces, Afghan special forces, in the world. And they're capable but airpower is indispensible to their
AMANPOUR: As you know, there's a new crisis emerged; the election commission has said that parliamentary and local elections must happen in
October and certainly your chief executive has decided that that's not OK because there hasn't been the electoral reform that was demanded before
What is your view on that?
GHANI: We will do the reforms. Parliament --
AMANPOUR: Before the elections?
There're obviously very public divisions or disagreements or tensions between you and your chief executive, Dr. Abdullah.
And how difficult is that in running the country?
GHANI: On policy, there hasn't been a single difference. The issue, if there have been differences, have been regarding personnel, not
policies, which is fundamental because policy approaches and we've managed our tenure, our survival, thanks to cooperation.
There was no precedent for a government of national unity but unlike any of the region, you cannot point out a single other country in the
region that has tried this approach. The reforms that are necessary for the election of 2016 will take place before that. And there will be
further reforms for the election of 2019.
AMANPOUR: There was a terrible attack by the Taliban on TOLO TV personnel. It's your strongest and best and most neutral and objective
media in Afghanistan. We all know many people who are there. And eight, seven or eight people were killed.
What is your reaction to that?
GHANI: Horror. I mean, first because my commitment, freedom of press, is absolute. I have not permitted a single person in the government
to call the freedom of press into question.
AMANPOUR: On the issue of women, which is something that the international community, particularly the West, looks very closely at,
there's still a lot of problems for a lot of women in Afghanistan, not just violence and domestic violence, but the whole democratic representation.
Just recently, a lady from a part of Afghanistan came in complaining that her husband had cut her nose off. I mean, you know, what can the
state do to penetrate this thing that happens out in the hinterlands and elsewhere?
GHANI: Well, the first is precisely peace. We stand for order. We stand for the constitutional rights and particularly for women's rights.
But this is one of the most fundamental challenges that Afghan society faces. It's because 40 years of violence have destroyed the historical
role of women.
My grandmother gave space to no man. She was educated. It's the result of it that all of us are educated. And literally, a woman's
education, if you want proof that a woman's education, a girl's education changes five generations, look at me.
GHANI: But the opportunities, again, a lot of our programs have been misdirected. For instance, women cannot come to the university because we
don't have enough women's universities. I'm campaigning now to build to raise resources so that at least we have one woman dormitory in each
In high schools, again, women from the insecure areas cannot come and finish high school because they don't have dormitory spaces. And while we
have made very significant advances on the number of people who are in school, the quality of the education has been sorely lacking and -- but the
most significant thing for a woman is economic empowerment. They have to be able to have money of their own. And when you do that -- and the
evidence is historically and empirically really there -- then their position within the family changes.
AMANPOUR: President Ashraf Ghani, thank you for joining us.
GHANI: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Well, from those high-stake policies to high calories, we turn next to "The Naked Chef," the British foodie and food campaigner,
Jamie Oliver. It seems the variety at Davos knows know bounds and after a break we imagine how to cure a sweet and sickly world.
AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, in this wide and varied one-stop shopping fest that is Davos, we imagine a world in which "The Naked Chef"
lays bare the facts of the food industry whilst enlisting that industry to help find the hidden fats and sugars in their own products.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): Having started the good food revolution in British schools, Jamie Oliver recalls how, back then, there were no
standards for what children ate but there were standards for dog food.
Now in the snowy corridors of Davos power, he's taking it a step further by imagining a world where industry, government and activists can
cut into the obesity crisis and help parents figure out just what's what.
AMANPOUR: So tell the consumer, tell the mom like me and so many millions and millions around the world how to sort through what we're told
one day and what we're told the next day.
One day sugar and salt is bad; the next day it's not so bad. One day this kind of fat is bad; the next day it isn't.
You're doing a documentary right now called "The Sugar Rush."
How do we navigate what's safe and what's dangerous?
OLIVER: I think what it is, is because the consumer can choose whatever they want and their food products are like the pop stars of today,
So certainly for Britain and many other countries, the single largest source of sugar in our kids' and teenagers' diet is sugary sweetened
AMANPOUR: But can you have a good Mars bar just to pull one out of the --
OLIVER: Well --
OLIVER: -- I think what's really -- I think we want -- in the healthy joy of food, we're not saying life without -- you should enjoy a Mars bar,
you should love a cake, you should love an ice cream. And in a way those things are kind of weirdly honest. We've always known that they were
indulgent and if you overindulge there is a cost to that.
But in the food industry, the metaphors of salt, fat and sugar get hidden and lost and I think that's where labeling for busy moms and dad
globally, I mean, like the controversy on clarity of labeling for busy moms and dads is awful and hopefully we're setting that up at the moment to get
AMANPOUR: What is it about your life?
You've just turned 40 last year, I think.
What is it about your life that brought you to this point?
OLIVER: When I was 23, "The Naked Chef," which was my original show, which was about stripping down restaurant food to home food, it was just
about the joy of food and bringing people together. And what's amazing about that is it goes beyond any language; everyone gets it.
And I sold so many books so quickly as a young boy ill prepared for that. But what it did really, really clearly in my mind was tell me that
my boss is and will always be the public, beyond any partner, any brand and literally right next to my wife is the general public. And that is my
And some people like me, some people find me deeply annoying. And that's all cool. But in 17 years I've never lied to them. And I think a
lot of the progress in food and food quality and food safety and health of our children is about honesty or the lack of it.
And the only reason I'm here -- because I shouldn't be here -- and the only reason we have conversations with government inclusively and CEOs of
incredibly powerful companies is because the only anchor I've got or the weapon I've got is trust of the public really in 120 countries around the
world. So I would never misuse that.
But I think what I'm feeling out here at the moment from CEOs -- and it's a tonal thing. This didn't happen 10 years ago, by the way -- is CEOs
going, we're really good at this. We've fixed that and we're still really bad at that and what -- we're trying to work it out.
And that honesty makes you just love them a bit. And not too much. But I think it's OK to be honest.
AMANPOUR: Good. Well, that's a good message certainly for parents and people who really need to know what we and our kids are consuming. So
thank you very much.
OLIVER: Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: Thank you. Great.
OLIVER: Lovely to see you.
AMANPOUR: Lovely to see you, too.
AMANPOUR: And an important note, the McKinsey report around this campaign says obesity is a $2 trillion a year problem, more than any war
and terrorism combined and that is an interesting takeaway for the world leaders here.
And that is also it for our program tonight. Remember, you can now always listen to our podcast, see us online at amanpour.com and follow me
on Facebook and Twitter. Thanks for watching and goodbye from Davos.