Return to Transcripts main page


Cruz Wins Iowa and Trump Says He'll Fight On; Book Highlights Plight of Afghan Women; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired February 2, 2016 - 14:00:00   ET




CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: Trump is trumped. Cruz cruises.

But is he on cruise control?

Or does Iowa's big story, Marco Rubio, unite and fight for the Republican nomination?

Also ahead, a modern-day tale of star-crossed lovers from Afghanistan.

And Hillary Clinton crosses the finish line.


RULINE STEININGER, HILLARY SUPPORTER: I say I hope Hillary appreciates all this.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Well, Hillary did win in Iowa and the 102-year-old voter who's seen pretty much everything and now wants to see Hillary or any

woman in the Oval Office.



AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

Well, the winner didn't win. In Iowa last night, Donald Trump, who always calls himself a winner, met his first test and he came in second.


DONALD TRUMP, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We finished second and I want to tell you something. I'm just honored. I'm really honored.


AMANPOUR: But would the 2013 Donald Trump agree with him?

Back then he tweeted, "No one remembers who came in second."

What about the one who came in first?

What are his chances going forward?

Fellow insurgent and hardline conservative Ted Cruz, he swept up Iowa's evangelical vote to win.

But today, everyone's talking about the third man, Marco Rubio, the freshman senator from Florida, son of Cuban immigrants, who did 8

percentage points better than predicted, coming in just one point below Trump.

Going into next week's New Hampshire primary, the Republican establishment is holding its breath and hoping.


SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLA., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They told me that we have no chance, because my hair wasn't gray enough and my boots were too



RUBIO: They told me I needed to wait my turn.


AMANPOUR: Now the Democratic race was a squeaker. The Iowa Democratic Party declared Hillary Clinton the winner, barely, a day after the caucus.

Bernie Sanders, though, closing the gap, garnered his votes with a narrow coalition of young college students.

So here to dissect it all are the veteran political reporter, Ann Louise Bardach, who's written extensively on both Cruz and Rubio, and Richard

Viguerie, who's been called one of the creators of the modern American conservative movement.

Welcome to you both.

So, I want to go straight to you, Mr. Viguerie, because I believe Ted Cruz is your guy.

Were you surprised?

And do you think he can make it to New Hampshire and all across the country?

RICHARD VIGUERIE, MODERN AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE: Absolutely. I've been saying for a long time, I think, basically, it's a two-person race and that

is the establishment candidate, represented by Marco Rubio, and the grassroots candidate, which is Ted Cruz.

And it's a very unusual race. For as long as I've been alive, a long time, the establishment has always united behind one candidate, going back for

100 years. Now we see them split between Rubio and Bush and Christie and Kasich and Carly.

And the conservatives are coming behind one candidate, Ted Cruz. So it's going to be a fascinating next couple of months here. And I think it's

going to be a two-person race very quickly.

AMANPOUR: Let's move over to Ann Louise Bardach.

Were you surprised, Ann -- you've written a lot about Cruz and Rubio -- that Trump lost and that Rubio did comparatively so well?

Ann, can you hear me?

Well, while we get her sound up --


Yes, I just take closely my eyes while I wait.

AMANPOUR: Ann, can you hear Christiane Amanpour --


AMANPOUR: Ann, can you hear me?

BARDACH: What did you say?

AMANPOUR: Can you hear me, Ann?

BARDACH: Maybe make her a little louder for me.

AMANPOUR: OK, I'm going to go back to you, Richard Viguerie.

So Donald Trump is already blaming the press in one of his tweets, having given a sort of -- what some people thought was a humble speech.

He said, "I will be talking about my wonderful experience in Iowa and the simultaneous unfair treatment by the media later in New Hampshire."

Big crowd.

I mean, what do you think about Donald Trump?

Is he done --


AMANPOUR: -- or what, Richard?

VIGUERIE: I think he's on the way out. He's been kind of off to the side in a sense of attacks. Ted Cruz is the first person who's really gone

after him and succeeded. And he's going after him ideologically.

Others like Rick Perry, former governor of Texas, and Jeb Bush attacked him because they thought he was kind of a nut case or not serious, whatever.

But Ted Cruz went after him ideologically. It's hard to identify a position that Trump has to date, that he didn't have an opposite position,

basically a liberal position, five, 10 years ago.

So Cruz is coming after him ideologically and it's going to be tough for him to stand up against that attack from Cruz, which is coming -- and the

grassroots conservatives are all united to come after Cruz and Rubio and as not conservatives.

AMANPOUR: You know, a lot of people, again, are looking at this upended presidential race, particularly the insurgents in the Republican race. So

this is what Senator Rubio said just a few weeks ago or last week or so, about what needs to happen if the Republicans are to win in November.

Listen to what he said.


RUBIO: We cannot win if we are divided, if we are fighting against each other. And so we must bring not just the party but the conservative

movement back together and I will. No one running for president can bring the conservative movement and the Republican Party together faster or

better than I can.


AMANPOUR: Richard Viguerie, can Rubio unite the Republican Party?

And don't you need to be united in order to win?

VIGUERIE: Oh, absolutely, Christiane. The -- Rubio is correct in the sense that the Republican Party must be united. That's the number one

thing they have to do above everything else. You have to go into the election united.

And they've not been united for maybe 25 years. They weren't united under Bob Dole, under McCain, Romney, et cetera. But they can be united this

time but Rubio cannot do it. He can't bring on the anti-illegal immigration people, the libertarians.

There are six main voting blocs that make up the Republican base. Reagan's three, which is national security, cultural issues and economic issues.

Then we've added the Tea Party and now there's also the liberty movement, the libertarians.

Ted Cruz checks all five of those boxes. And like Reagan, with his vice presidential choice, he can unite the party and go on to win in November.

Rubio can't do that. He can't bring the party together like Ted Cruz can.

AMANPOUR: You say that but, you know, there were many Republicans who were terrified -- I mean, before Iowa, we were even hearing that Trump would be

better than Cruz. They say Cruz is very disliked.

He, obviously, also -- your party has a bit of a problem when it comes to the candidates, when it comes to appealing to a major voting bloc, whether

they be Hispanics, whether they be gays, whether they be, in some instances, women.

I mean, how can he get all those on board in order to do as you say?

VIGUERIE: Well, the Democrats have had as more or more problems. You know, you've got the Democratic Party moving hard left. I mean, Bernie

Sanders, the socialist, is pulling Hillary to the left now.

And what we're looking at, Christiane, is a first ideological campaign in this country for president since the 1980s. And it's going to be a

conservative running against a liberal and I think, on those type of situations, America is a right-of-center country and that favors the


And this is going to be -- let me just say one other quick thing and that is, this election is going to be fought over something that's going to

surprise the mainstream media right now. It's going to be a religious liberty election as much as anything. And Ted Cruz has demonstrated that

last night. The religious liberty vote is huge and it's going to be a big factor in this election.

AMANPOUR: Mr. Viguerie, you're right that, in Iowa, it was huge but many question whether it will be huge going around the country.

I want to ask you, though, because you said it will be a conservative versus a liberal. As you know, Hillary Clinton has been awarded the Iowa

caucus. And this is what she said tonight about her pragmatic record. Just listen, Mr. Viguerie.


HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm talking about my record. I'm talking about the Children's Health Insurance

Program for 8 million kids. I'm talking about getting health care for National Guard members.

I'm talking about helping to push through a treaty to lower nuclear weapons between us and the Russians when I was secretary of state. I'm talking

about building the coalition against Iran to bring them to the negotiating table -- and so many other issues. I have a very long record of getting

results for people. That's what I care about.


AMANPOUR: Well, we have Ann Louise Bardach back.

But first I want to ask you, Mr. Viguerie, before I turn to her, do you want -- do the Republicans want to see Hillary as the candidate or Bernie?


VIGUERIE: Oh, absolutely -- well, either one of them, quite frankly. Both of them are so far out of the mainstream, we would like to run against

either one of them, it doesn't matter.

But national security will be a big issue. That's one reason Republicans have an advantage in the election. We'll be able to appeal to minorities

such as Hispanics on national security, which moves the dial our favor.

AMANPOUR: All right, Mr. Viguerie, thank you. Stand by for a second.

Ann Louise Bardach, Mr. Viguerie has said that Ted Cruz is the person to unite the Republican Party. You've written a lot about him and Rubio.

What do you feel, today, in the wake of the Iowa results?

BARDACH: Well, it's certainly a three-way race now and Cruz trumped Trump, who, you know, always said, no one remembers who came in second place. And

he came in barely second place.

On the other hand, Cruz has really successfully pushed Marco Rubio into a couple of very tight spots, by moving him further and further to the right.

And that will be problematic in a general election. In terms of who the Democratic Party is fearing more, they are fearing Marco Rubio more, I'm

afraid to say.

AMANPOUR: And who do you think the Republican Party are fearing more?

I asked Mr. Viguerie. He's there smiling. He's still plugged in. And he said both Sanders and Hillary are way out of the mainstream.

Well, do you agree?

I mean, Hillary Clinton is not known for being out of the mainstream.

BARDACH: Well, it depends on one's perspective. Certainly Ted Cruz, as far as most Democrats and independents are concerned, they would view him

out of the mainstream.

Lookit, Marco Rubio is a remarkably gifted politician. I have rarely seen a candidate with such a profound gift for gab. He can pretty much argue

from every standpoint.

Now Ted Cruz is, of course, also a champion debater but he is much more ideologically rigid than Marco Rubio and that makes him a better foil for

the Democratic Party. However, Cruz now has pushed Rubio closer and closer towards his positions; particularly immigration is going to be very

problematic for the Republican Party.

AMANPOUR: And we just have a tiny bit left.

What do you think happens in New Hampshire and thereafter?

BARDACH: Well, it's going to get tighter and tighter. Donald Trump has been proven not to be the invisible Trump that he told everybody he is.

There's going to be more of a grab for the center.

I would expect that John Kasich will do better. Remember that Chris Christie had a major endorsement there. But I do think that New Hampshire

certainly favors Marco Rubio.

When we get down to South Carolina and those states, that's where Ted Cruz may show some bigger strengths, although Marco Rubio just got a very

important endorsement in South Carolina; Florida, just a couple of days ago, Donald Trump was beating them in the polls, both of them.

But I think now we're going to see Rubio become more formidable as the Republican establishment lines up against him. The Republican Party hasn't

known what to do with either Donald Trump or Ted Cruz.

AMANPOUR: All right. Well, both of you, thank you very much. And we'll have you back, Ann Louise Bardach and Richard Viguerie, thank you so much.

Now New Yorkers know Donald Trump best. And you can imagine the fun the tabloids are having today. New York's "Daily News" calling him a "Dead

clown walking," with the conservative "New York Post" saying he's been "Cruz-ified."

When we come back, we look ahead to one of the many issues a future president will have to face and that is Afghanistan and the Taliban on the

rise there. Bad for everyone, especially the women.

After a break, the poignant tale of Kabul's Romeo and Juliet, saved from certain death by the reporter who told their story. That's next.





AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Even before 9/11, there were the horrors of the Taliban. Everyone knew about their vicious war on Afghan women. And after toppling them 15 years

ago, the West and the rest of the world promised to protect and empower the women there.

But now, a U.S. report says the Taliban is even more dangerous than it ever was and controls even more territory than it did before 9/11. Today,

Afghanistan is listed as the worst country in the world to be a woman.

My next guest has seen this all for himself. The Pulitzer Prize-winning "New York Times" reporter, Rod Nordland, has just published the true and

tragic story of Zakia and Ali, star-crossed Afghan lovers, whose Romeo and Juliet story targeted her for an honor killing by her family.


AMANPOUR: Rod Nordland, welcome to the program.


AMANPOUR: This is an amazing story, I mean the sort of Romeo and Juliet but it's in Afghanistan and everything is against them.

What made you take on this story?

And not just as a journalist; you got really involved.

NORDLAND: Yes. But originally as a journalist, I'd been looking for some time for a good honor killing story, one that you could actually talk to

everybody involved.

And this was even better because they were still alive and she was under a threat of an honor killing. It looked like inevitably it would happen.

And I was able to talk to her family and her and her lover and so on.

AMANPOUR: You write and, you know, some of us know, some people don't know that it is actually the worst place in the world to be a woman.

NORDLAND: Yes, I think the more I looked at it -- and it's a recurring story and I've been there for five years now and the issue of women's

rights has just come up over and over again because there were such great expectations for it. And there has been a lot of improvement, it's true.

But it's a pretty low bar.

And they're still worse off than women almost anywhere else. But it is kind of shocking to think that, like you can be killed for something as

small as deciding who you want to fall in love with and that the predominant view, at least among the patriarchy, among the mullahs and so

on, is that love is wrong and people should marry who their fathers tell them to and be satisfied with that.

AMANPOUR: I put this to President Ashraf Ghani when I saw him in Davos about a week ago.


ASHRAF GHANI, PRESIDENT OF AFGHANISTAN: We stand for order. We stand for the constitutional rights and particularly for women's rights. But this is

one of the most fundamental challenges that Afghan society faces. It's because 40 years of violence have destroyed the historical role of women.


AMANPOUR: Is this government doing any better than the last government?

NORDLAND: I think it's doing better in the sense that Ashraf Ghani has, in a very important symbolic sense, that he's brought his wife out in public.

He's given her jobs to do. You know, President Karzai basically kept his wife in purdah. She was an obstetrician who was never seen after -- once

she married the president.

So that's an important symbol and will have a long-term effect, I'm sure.

But on the other hand, the negotiations now going on, the sort of stage 2, tier 2 negotiations, there are no women involved and the women are very

upset about that.

AMANPOUR: These great pictures of the two protagonists, of the lovers, your book.

I mean, that pretty much says it all, right?

They're sort of walking into some unknown future.

How has their story resonated in Afghanistan itself?

NORDLAND: Yes, they've become heroes to their generation because they're obviously not the only people that have fallen in love. And you know,

Afghans fall in love and then they put that aside and marry the people they're told to marry. And a lot of the young people now are resisting


That picture, for instance, Afghans paint it and draw it and put it up on their car windows and I think what makes her case so perilous is that her

family, if they were to kill her, can rest easy knowing that nobody would be prosecuted. Or if anybody was --


NORDLAND: -- prosecuted, nobody would be seriously punished.

There's even a law in Afghanistan that, if you're a man and you kill a woman in your family because she offended your honor, the maximum penalty

is two years -- and few get that, even.

AMANPOUR: What I found incredible about your book, apart from the story itself, which is amazing, is the epilogue, that the original war against

the Soviets by the mujahedeen was to regain control over their women because the Communist government and then the Soviets had actually

empowered Afghan women.


AMANPOUR: Tell me about that. That is extraordinary.

NORDLAND: It's amazing and I didn't quite realize it, either, although at times I had been on trips with the mujahedeen in those years. And that's

all they ever talked about, was this affront to their honor, that had been imposed upon them by the -- by the Communists.

And there was all this outrage over the Soviet invasion. And I don't think that many of us -- and myself included, at that time, even -- really looked

at those issues, the issues behind that.

But the issues were not communism. They were feminism.

AMANPOUR: Do you think you crossed a line as a reporter?

NORDLAND: Yes, I crossed a line. But I also don't think I really had much choice. Where I specifically crossed the line first was when I found them

in the mountains.

And the result of that was the police were pretty soon on their way to that location and we knew that they would probably be arrested. And I could

have -- in a way it would have been a bit better story, more dramatic story, to just watch as they were arrested and taken away.

But I just didn't feel I could do that. I didn't feel it was right. I felt I was partly responsible for them getting caught.

So I put them in my car and helped them escape. Having like stirred up all this interest in them and made them kind of nationally famous, I didn't

think I could just really walk away from it the way a journalist perhaps should.

AMANPOUR: And what do you think is their future?

NORDLAND: I think their -- I think their future is bleak if they don't get out of Afghanistan. That requires getting asylum. They have a young

daughter now who's just over a year. They haven't been willing to risk her life by swimming across the Aegean on the way to Europe and where, if they

applied for asylum, they would be shoo-ins.

They have -- you know, they qualify on four out of the five international grounds for asylum.

The law does not allow them to do that from their home country. They have to first risk their lives and get somewhere where they can. And you know,

crossing Iran is really dangerous and crossing in -- you know, the Aegean or however else they get into Europe is dangerous.

And they actually saw the picture of Alan Kurdi, the little boy who was washed up on the beach in Turkey, and a friend showed it to them on their -

- on his cell phone and that just sort of got them where they lived and they just thought they're not going to do that to their own daughter.

And they don't understand, either, why it shouldn't be possible, if they have such a good case for asylum, to make some sort of arrangement for

them, you know, where they could just get a visa and leave from their own country in a civilized way.

AMANPOUR: It's a dark story; of course, they're still alive, so that's great and you actually did what a journalist, i.e. a human being, should

do. You didn't allow them to be ripped apart by the baying hordes.

What is it that surprised you the most about telling the story and researching it?

NORDLAND: Yes, the -- you know, they're illiterate. They haven't gone to school, had one or two years between the two of them.

What the most surprising thing was what a big role poetry played in their lives. They didn't -- they couldn't read it but they could get it from

popular music.

And, you know, Ali courted Zakia with poetry that he recited to her, the words from songs that he recited, and stories, old Persian love stories,

that go back to the Bible and even before the Bible.

They're both very well versed in them. And it's a very big part of their emotional life. And it was kind of heartening to see that, even in these

unlettered people from a very remote corner of Afghanistan.

AMANPOUR: That is heartening. That's beautiful.

Rod Nordland, thank you very much indeed.

NORDLAND: Thanks. It's a pleasure.


AMANPOUR: And when we come back, we imagine the world of one Democrat in the United States, who's waited 20 election cycles -- that's 80 years -- to

elect a woman president. That feisty centenarian, next.





AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, we imagine a woman who waited more than a century to vote for Hillary Clinton. At 102, the Iowan woman, Ruline

Steininger, has seen it all, almost, as she wrote in this letter to Hillary Clinton.


STEININGER: I'm holding the letter that I wrote to Hillary.

"Dear Madam Secretary, in my first century of life, I have seen many incredible things, two world depressions, a cure for polio, a man on the

moon, the end of smallpox, an attack on American soil and a black president.

"In my second century, I look forward to seeing a woman president."


AMANPOUR: It is incredible and so when caucus night came, Ruline wasn't going to let age hold her back.


STEININGER: Tonight I'm going to my caucus and vote for Hillary.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is her 20th presidential election; '40 was your first one.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: May I ask how old you are?


Going to the caucus is more important than voting because that is when you pick the candidate.

I say I hope Hillary appreciates all this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Grab on to that.


Now where do I go?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is Hillary unless somebody changes her mind at the last minute. You know, that's what this is all about.

STEININGER: I'm not changing mine.



STEININGER: Ah, yes. It wasn't easy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All those in favor?

STEININGER: If he says anything important, let me know.


STEININGER: Well, I think it's wonderful that a woman is running for president after all these years. And I'm real excited about it and I think

she ought to win.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So this is the time during the caucus that we break into preference groups.

And if anyone wants to realign, this is their opportunity to do that.

STEININGER: Well, I'm sitting in Hillary Clinton's section, I hope.

I'm trying to live long enough to vote in the November election.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 98 for Hillary Clinton, 67 for Bernie Sanders, six undecided.

STEININGER: Where is my photographer when I need him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ready for your close-up?

STEININGER: No. Don't make it a close-up.


AMANPOUR: And Hillary, of course, won Iowa. One caucus, all the primaries to come.

And that is it for us tonight. Thanks for watching. Goodbye from London.