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Hillary Clinton caught off guard about a question about death with dignity laws; Virginia Tech students charged in the murder of a seventh grade girl will remain in jail; Martin Shkreli, the former chief executive of Turing Pharmaceuticals was on Capitol Hill this morning; 3:30-4p ET

Aired February 4, 2016 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:30:00] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: That said, I'm curious, Jonathan, when we talk about maybe some of the operatives back channeling all for the common good which is getting Marco Rubio, you know, down and then the finish perhaps in New Hampshire. How uncommon is this kind of communication?

JONATHAN MARTIN, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Actually, if you look at past presidential campaigns where you've got multicandidate primaries, this kind of I think does tend to happen. You saw it happen in the 2004 primary, the Democratic side. There was an interest in stopping Howard Dean between Dave Gephardt and John Kerry. You saw it to some degree in 2008 where John McCain and Mike Huckabee wanted to stop Mitt Romney.

So it's not uncommon for these sort of temporary alliances to form. And it's a lot easier for it to happen when you've got a candidate like Rubio who the Christie and Bush camps both think has not gotten the kind of scrutiny their candidates have received and that's really the back story, here, Brooke, there's deep frustration among Bush and Christie that, you know, Rubio is basically sliding by and he is not facing the kind of, you know, press questions, the kind of scrutiny that they have during the course of this campaign.

We are four to five days out from New Hampshire. They are trying to figure out a way to slow Rubio down. And, you know, they are being creative. And when it comes to Christie, he is launching some attacks that I don't think we have seen in this campaign, Brooke, at least this side of one Donald J. Trump.

BALDWIN: I have to say, with one exemption there, Jonathan Martin. One exception as you just mentioned.

MARTIN: The trump asterisk.

BALDWIN: We'll see if it works for them. Jonathan Martin, thank you very much. Thank you.

MARTIN: Thank you, Brooke.

Coming up next on the democrat's side, Hillary Clinton caught off guard about a question about death with dignity laws, admitting she has never actually been asked about that topic before and she assumed probably other candidates probably hadn't either. See how she responded. We will get some perspective from a woman who helped lead that effort to get laws passed in Oregon.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:36:16] BALDWIN: The presidential candidates have been answering a lot of tough questions, but until now the topic of dying with dignity wasn't one of them. During our CNN town hall in New Hampshire, 81- year-old Jim Kinhan, who is suffering from terminal colon cancer, asked Hillary Clinton this question.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM KINHAN, ASKED HILLARY CLINTON ABOUT DEATH WITH DIGNITY: I'm walking with colon cancer with the word terminal very much in my vocabulary, comfortably and spiritually. But I wonder what leadership you could offer with an executive role that might help advance the respectful conversation that is need around this personal choice that people may make.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want -- I want as president to try to catalyze that debate because I believe you're right, this is going to become an issue more and more often. We are on the good side having many people live longer, but often then with very serious illnesses that they can be sustained on but at some point don't want to continue with the challenges that poses.

So I don't have any easy or glib answer for you. I think I would want to really immerse myself in the ethical writings, the health writings, the scientific writings, the religious writings. I know some other countries, the Netherlands and others, have a quite open approach. I would like to know what their experience has been. Because we have to be sure that nobody is coerced. Nobody is under duress. And that is a difficult line to draw.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: She also said that was the first time she has ever been asked that question.

So let me bring in Barbara Coombs Lee. Barbara Coombs Lee is the president of Compassion and Choices, a group dedicated to protecting the rights of the terminally ill.

Barbara, thank you so much for joining me.

BARBARA COOMBS LEE, PRESIDENT, COMPASSION AND CHOICES: Thank you.

BALDWIN: I know you that helped write and get this death with dignity law passed in Oregon. And I definitely want to get your response to Hillary Clinton's response in a moment. But first, just your personal story. You were an ICU-ER nurse, a physician's assistant for 25 years. But the death of a state senator really touched you. Tell me why.

LEE: He was an advocate for his own choices. And he was also, in a way, a victim of political process that does not take into account the values, the beliefs, of individuals themselves facing very difficult challenges at the end of life. So he introduced a bill that got no serious consideration. He died in a way that would not have been his first choice. It would not have been - it was not consistent with an option that he sought to make available for all the people of Oregon. He was a wonderful man. A very highly regarded statesman. He deserved better.

BALDWIN: So here we have brought to - you know, as we talked about death with dignity certainly in the last year or so. But you know, in the middle of this presidential race, the fact that Hillary Clinton says, I have never gotten this question ever. And I bet the other candidates haven't either. Were you satisfied with her answer?

LEE: I thought her answer was a wonderful answer. It was thoughtful. It was open minded. And I think it reflected the complexity of the issue. The questioner did not about a particular option. He asked about starting a national dialogue and particularly at the federal level that would promote an environment in which everyone could experience a death that was consistent with the life they live, with the values and belief of a lifetime. That means on a whole range of end of life choices. So there's not really one answer. And I think her promise, her interest in studying it, took elevating the dialogue to a federal level is very, very important.

People think about this as a state's issue. Medical practices regulate it at the state level. But there's a lot the federal government can do, particularly the centers for Medicare and Medicaid, do to reverse the incentives that are in place right now to over treat, to deliver tests, some treatments that are -- that just do not comport and that are unwanted by people who want to have a very peaceful end of life experience.

[15:40:44] BALDWIN: I know you know this but not everyone agrees with you. I'm just doing my due diligence. On the other side, you have opponents to these types laws who worry that there could be some kind of gray area, Barbara, that you know, people can be encouraged, are pressured to end their lives unnecessarily because of, you know, maybe lack of maybe finance resources. What do you say to those folks?

LEE: I think that's why we have to have an open conversation. Because so long as these conversations are clandestine and covert, (INAUDIBLE), there is a high risk of abuse. By raising these conversations, exposing them to the sunshine, having second opinions, having family and clergy, hospice personnel, everyone in the room together talking openly about what a patience's values and beliefs are and what their requests are and how they can be best met, that's the way to protect people. We can protect people with that kind of an open authorized environment for everyone's choices.

BALDWIN: Barbara Coombs Lee, thank you.

LEE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up, he chaired the Veterans affair committee in the Senate but was Bernie Sanders too slow to act in the midst of the VA hospital crisis? Take a look when CNN investigates.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:46:05] BALDWIN: A lot of times senator Bernie Sanders talking about his tenure as a Senate Veterans committee chairman. With that, comes a little bit of baggage including the years-long scandal at the department of Veterans affairs.

So when Anderson Cooper asked about the problems there at the CNN town hall last night, Sanders had to explain whether short comings were not addressed on his watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, AC 360: You were on the veterans affairs committee for eight years. You headed it for two years. There were 18 inspector general reports talking about problems plaguing the VA. Why did it take so long? And it took you too long to act?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Fair question. And I think, you know, the answer is that we have worked on many, many issues. Anderson. And your point is fair that we should have acted sooner. We should have known what was going on in Phoenix. Those long waiting lines and the lies some administrators were telling us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me bring in our senior investigative correspondent Drew Griffin.

Drew, I mean, you and your crew reported extensively on this, shedding lights on veterans, you know, deaths, delays at VA facilities across the country. The question is this. Is Bernie Sanders' own admission that he missed efficiencies, will that be a problem for him down the campaign road?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Down the road, yes. It's doubtful that he will hear much about it from his fellow Democrat Hillary Clinton because uncomfortably that would also raise the lack of leadership about the Democratic in the White House who is also accused of sleeping on the job when it comes to this whole VA debacle. But as you mentioned, Brooke, should senator Sanders become the actual Democratic nominee, you bet his record in the Senate and on that VA committee will be fair game.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRIFFIN (voice-over): Bernie Sanders was chairman of the U.S. Senate committee on Veterans affairs during the height of the VA wait list scandal but critics like the founder of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans association says you'd never know it.

PAUL RIECKHOFF, IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN VETERANS ASSOCIATION: For far too long, he was apologizing for the VA. He was refusing to acknowledge the severity. He was positioning it as a smaller issue than it was while veterans were dying waiting for care. GRIFFIN: Paul Rieckhoff says Sanders had to be ignoring what was

happening just across the capital in the house where the house Veterans affairs committee investigators were digging up records, squaring in whistleblowers and exposing the massive scandal.

RIECKHOFF: Chairman Sanders was at the helm during the biggest scandal in VA history. So the question for Bernie Sanders is, where were you? Why didn't you conduct more oversight, why didn't you get to the bottom of this, why didn't you listen to the veterans groups who came forward and said this was a problem.

GRIFFIN: Republican senators on the Senate Veterans Committee were so troubled by the lack of oversight, they sent this letters to Sanders complaining our nation's veteran do not deserve to wait to receive their benefits and or needed healthcare services. Adding this committee must conduct aggressive oversight to ensure they receive the care they need when they need it.

Sanders did finally hold a hearing in May of 2014 at the height of the scandal and after CNN reported about secret weight lists in Phoenix. He acknowledged there were problems. Supported an independent investigation. But also praised the VA's handling the 200,000 appointments a day and for delivering quality healthcare to our vets.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: One of the concerns that I have, to be very honest, is there has been a little bit of a rush to judgment. What happened in Phoenix? Well, the truth is, we don't know, but we are going to find out.

GRIFFIN: He later appeared on CNN that same morning again cautioning against a rush to judgment.

SANDERS: Did the delay in care of this people on the secret waiting list actually cause these deaths? We don't know.

GRIFFIN: Two weeks after Bernie Sanders raised that question, the scandal reached its climax and VA secretary Eric Shinseki resigned. In his resignation speech, Secretary Shinseki apologized for the nationwide scandal, acknowledging exactly what the house veterans affairs committee and what CNN had been reporting for nearly two years, that in the VA system, some managers were hiding months long waiting lists of veterans seeking medical care.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[15:50:16] GRIFFIN: Brooke, Senator Sanders eventually did come around, get on the bandwagon and help pass a VA reform bill but critics say just too little too late. She should have been on this from the start of his chairmanship in the Senate.

BALDWIN: All right. Perhaps he will get some credit for that, perhaps not.

Drew Griffin, thanks so much.

Coming up next, we have chilling new details about the tragic murder of a 13-year-old girl, and these two college students accused of planning it out. What we learned when one of them appeared in court today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:54:59] BALDWIN: One of the Virginia Tech students charged in the murder of a seventh grade girl will remain in jail. A judge today denied bail for 19-year-old Natalie Keepers. She's accused of helping to plan the murder of 13-year-old Nicole Lovell. She is also accused of helping dispose of this girl's body.

Prosecutors say Lovell disappeared from her home last week after meeting up with 18-year-old Virginia Tech student David Eisenhauer. Eisenhauer is the one charged with her murder. Lovell's mother broke down when talking about her little girl.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAMMY WEEKS, NICOLE'S MOTHER: Coley had a passion of her panda, music, dancing, dreamed of being on "American Idol" someday. Her favorite color was blue. Nicole was very loveable person. Nicole touched many people throughout her short life. I can't do that part.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That mother, that mother.

Martin Savidge is following this one for us today and with regard to what happened in court. What happened?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Natalie Keepers had a bond hearing today. You already pointed out it was denied. Her parents were there and actually testified in her behalf and Natalie Keepers also testified as well. The parents seemed absolutely shell shocked and maybe why wouldn't they be. Here they felt they had a star engineering student daughter who now is charged with murder.

The state attorney outlined sort of what keepers' involvement was here. Initially people were thinking maybe somehow this student got pulled into this. No. The prosecution says Natalie Keepers is in this murder up to her neck in the death of this 13-year-old little girl. So much so that she co-conspired, planned, even talked about the murder weapon that was going to be used, talked about how they would slit the girl's throat, chose the site where the murder was going to take place and after the murder took place, actually helped to lift this child's body into a car and then drive around in that same car with the girl's body in the back as they go to Walmart to buy cleaning supplies to clean up after the murder is done. Again, all of this is just coming very one-sided of course from the prosecution. But when you listen to it, it is beyond despicable. It is astonishingly awful.

BALDWIN: Is that the reason why then when she was initially arrested and prosecutors, you know, piled on these additional charges based upon what you just outlined? SAVIDGE: Apparently once authorities came to her, and they did, they

came to her literally in the middle of the night and pretty much said we're on to you here. She began spewing everything. Again, according to the prosecution. She began revealing all the information about the planning.

The other interesting thing here is that she never met the victim. She was apparently instrumental in this victim's death and also the handling of the disposal of the body, but she never actually met her, which in kind of a sick way is really bizarre.

And then on top of that, she herself was bullied, she testified, at least at the hearing today, which is a stunning admission since the girl who was the victim here we know was bullied herself in school. How does this happen? How does promising young Virginia tech students come together in a murder as they have been accused.

BALDWIN: No words. Martin Savidge, thank you.

Now to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've been viewed as a so-called bad boy of Pharma.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Bad Boy of Pharma, most hated man in America. Nicknames for Martin Shkreli, the former chief executive of Turing Pharmaceuticals, here he was on Capitol Hill this morning, smiling, smirking his way as he got grilled on the price gouging of prescription drugs. This 32- year-old was called to testify after his former company hiked the price of a drug called Daraprim boosting it from $13 a pill to $750 a pill overnight. He was arrested in December for unrelated fraud charges, but on the hill this morning, he had very little to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN SHKRELI, FORMER CEO, TURING PHARMACEUTICALS: On the advice of counsel, I will not be giving an opening statement.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think you've done anything wrong?

SHKRELI: On the advice of counsel, I invoke my Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: His attorney did speak on his behalf at a news conference after that hearing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN BRATMAN, MARTIN SHKRELI'S ATTORNEY: Mr. Shkreli is not a villain. He is not the bad boy. I think at the end of this story, he is a hero.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The only real response from Shkreli himself was found on twitter after the hearing. This is what he tweeted. "Hard to accept that these imbeciles represent the people in our government," end quote.

With that, I'm Brooke Baldwin here in New York. Thank you so much for being with me. We are going to take you to Washington now.

"The LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Brooke.

He is looking more like a politician today and less like - well, less like --