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CNN TONIGHT

Rousing Welcome for Donald Trump in South Carolina; A Leaner GOP Race After Christie, Fiorina Drop Out; Sanders Raises Millions of Dollars After N.H. Win; Trump and Cruz Attack Each Other in New Ads; Congressional Black Caucus Endorses Clinton. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired February 10, 2016 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[22:00:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, AC360 SHOW HOST: Time now for CNN TONIGHT with Don Lemon.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: So much winning!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The place is massive. Look at all these people. He spent -- I love you, too. Look at this, I love you. These people.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Donald Trump fresh from his overwhelming victory in New Hampshire getting a rousing welcome tonight in South Carolina.

This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

The day after and the republican contest is a lot leaner. Chris Christie and Carly Fiorina dropping out of the race.

On the democratic side, Bernie Sanders basking in his big win over Hillary Clinton, raising millions of dollars today. But can he win African-American by reaching out to civil rights leader like Al Sharpton. We'll see why some notable members of the black community are switching their vote.

So, what's next in this incredible race, after a 22-point loss to Bernie Sanders last night, Hillary Clinton hopes for a better showing in Nevada on Saturday, February 20th, and then they face off in South Carolina the following week.

On the republican side, the GOP primary in South Carolina is next weekend on the 20th, and then they go to Nevada. It's Tuesday, February 23rd. And both sides look ahead to the big Kahuna, that's Super Tuesday, March 1st, when 16 primaries and caucuses are held. The GOP race the big focus is now on South Carolina. Joining me now Hugh Hewitt, host to the Hugh Hewitt show. Happy Monday, sir. Let's play your last prediction Monday night before the New Hampshire primary.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, your prediction you said is Donald Trump.

HUGH HEWITT, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Trump, Kasich, and Rubio.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: All right. So, you were -- you were -- you're pretty close. What do you say about South Carolina?

HEWITT: Well, you know, you can actually say I called Iowa completely right. On this one Rubio got the same number of delegates as Cruz and Bush. So, I actually tied for third in delegates. But I was a little bit off. He was hurt more badly. I anticipate...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But you predicted Kasich, which I thought was very smart.

HEWITT: Yes.

LEMON: Yes.

HEWITT: Well, the independents broke for him. About Rubio, I'll say this, there's an ballad, an old English song, Don, called "The Ballad of Sir Andrew Barton" in which it is said that the wounded Scotch admiral said "I am wounded. I am not slain. I shall lay me down and bleed a while and rise to fight again."

I think that was Rubio with Wolf earlier today. I think Ted Cruz has got momentum, Jeb is fighting on. And I look though, at Donald Trump's crowd in South Carolina tonight and I say to myself, this is far beyond anything I think he imagined when he begin.

LEMON: Yes. I think we're going to probably play it. So, what do you say for South Carolina before we go on to continue talk about this.

HEWITT: It depends on this debate on Saturday night completely. I don't -- I was asked tonight on my radio show to make a prediction because I've been pretty close to 100 percent. And it really depends on Saturday night because the compression of this calendar and the focus on these debates.

Isn't I say Wolf is going to moderate the CNN debate in which I am participating on February 25th. And that one maybe down to three or four, but this one was six with Dr. Carson and the other candidates. He's going to allow the candidates a lot more time to talk and so it will shift the race on its axis again.

LEMON: OK.

HEWITT: But no predictions until next week.

LEMON: Let's talk about this because, you know, as I've been saying if you tell me you're going to run for president, I'm going to take you seriously. A lot of people didn't take, you know, him seriously. Donald Trump I'm talking about, and we did.

So, let's dig into this New Hampshire, these results. Trump wins, his win was convincing, he won across ages, new voters, republicans, democrats. Who are the runners up do you think that can beat him at this point? Can Trump be stopped?

HEWITT: Oh, yes. Thirty percent, I don't know if it's a ceiling or a floor. At this point, all of the -- I don't see Dr. Carson with a path. I see him with a program and I see him with a role to play but I don't see him on the path to the nomination.

I do see the black swan of American politics coming right at us, the open convention and anything can happen in something that has been unprecedented, it hasn't happened in my lifetime. And so, we don't really know who could come out of that with the nomination.

But given what you just said, the big Kahuna Super Tuesday, it's proportional representation. The delegate count if I can consult, Trump has 17, Cruz has 11, Rubio 10, Kasich 5, Jeb 4, and Ben Carson, 3. It takes 1,237 to win.

So, we have such a long way to go. Any of these gentlemen can win. And they all have terrific advantages and disadvantages. I mean, in South Carolina you've got Terry Sullivan is Marco Rubio's campaign manager. He knows to stay back of his hand, he work for Jim DeMint down there.

Jeb Bush has Bush family memory. Both Bush '41 and bush '43 faced crisis moments in their campaigns. And in 1988, George Herbert Walker Bush was 30 points behind Mike Dukakis.

[22:05:04] In 2000, W had to go from a blistering loss in New Hampshire to go beat McCain in the pro-military State of South Carolina. But '41 had Lee Atwater, '43 had Rove, and Mike Murphy is weld off from Jeb, so I don't know about that.

Ted Cruz, this is really interesting. He's the constitutional expert. And today, the Supreme Court put a stay -- or yesterday, late last night, the Supreme Court put a stay on President Obama's global climate change throw down from the EPA.

They also, a week earlier raised the issue of the president not taking care of the laws that he is charged with enforcing. So, Ted Cruz's constitutional chops come into play. Everyone's got a strength and then there's John Kasich.

LEMON: I've got to ask you this before we get too far afield here. You keep talking about a broken convention; I see this go all the broken convention. Why do you keep saying that? If there -- if Donald Trump has enough delegates or if whoever it is has enough delegates, why the convention would then brokered. HEWITT: I never save brokered, Don. I always say open because there

aren't brokers. Unlike the Democratic Party which today, managed to find the way to give Hillary five delegates out of her blowout. There are no bosses left in the Republican Party.

I just do math that takes 1237 delegates to be nominated. I don't see how anyone with the rule set that was adopted before anyone knew who was running, before anyone knew who was running. Reince Priebus and the Republican National Committee adopted a rule set that leads to a four or five-way race which leads no one getting close to 1,237 delegates.

And so, it's not brokered. It's just going to be math. And everyone with chips on the table, you know, a committed delegate is going to be invited to the game.

LEMON: All right. Let's talk about Ted Cruz. Well-organized in Iowa and he says that he has the organization to win in South Carolina, especially with Evangelicals there. Do you think that he can win there?

HEWITT: I do. I think any of these people could win it. Literally, any one of those five. I don't think Dr. Carson can win. He can have a good showing but I don't think he could win. Any of the other five could win at this point. And with the Evangelicals, Ted Cruz has enormous strength.

But I'll point out, I posted over on my web site today, Don, an interview I did with John Kasich from 2010, when he put out his book "Every Other Monday" about his 20 years in a small group of men of the Christian faith, the Evangelicals who had been meeting. His faith and his touch with the Evangelicals as deep as authentic as any of them.

And so, I wouldn't just say all of the Evangelicals are going to go to do with Cruz, though, he has a huge head start because of leadership nodding towards him.

I find this to be the most interesting 10 days in republican political history that I can remember. And maybe after Ford and Reagan at the first start the North Carolina primary in '76, but that's ancient history. This is really intense stuff.

LEMON: It's been -- it's been amazing to watch and will be amazing to watch. Thank you, Hugh. I'll see you soon.

HEWITT: Always a pleasure, Don.

LEMON: All right. Heading into the South Carolina, Donald Trump and Ted Cruz are attacking each other in new political ads. Look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ted Cruz, the worst kind of Washington insider who just can't be trusted.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can I go to the house of Mr. Trump? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's a lousy house. I'm going to take your house with eminent domain and park my Limos there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eminent domain!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Wow. Joining me now is Matt Moore, chairman of the South Carolina Republican Party. That is a harsh ads. South Carolina politics not been the fan of party, sir. Attack ads are already on the area as you see there and there had been some dirty tricks in past campaigns. What do you expect over the next 10 days?

MATT MOORE, SOUTH CAROLINA REPUBLICAN PARTY CHAIRMAN: South Carolina is a fascinating place, has a long history here of creative campaign tactics, Don, to say the least. I expect a sprint to the finish here in South Carolina.

As Hugh was just saying, a lot of candidates have a real shot here in South Carolina. If they get a bit of luck and they perform well in the debate here on Saturday night.

LEMON: Yes. So, outsiders, Matt, have shaken up the party to the core. It's shaking up the left as well. The electorate is angry at the establishment. Are you hearing the same thing in South Carolina?

MOORE: There's a lot of frustration all around. I hear it across teh state. People are frustrated with what seems to be a broken political class in Washington, a political class that listens more to lobbyists and donors than it does to regular people across the country.

Much of that anger is warranted. It seems like nothing has happened in the past seven years. Many people here in South Carolina feel left behind on both sides. I think our party has the right solutions to win in November to get us to a better future, but between now and then, it's going to be a tough fight to say the least.

LEMON: OK. Let's talk -- you said the issues, people of both the political class. So, let's talk about some of the candidates, OK? The knock against Ted Cruz is that he's got a likability problem. Do people like him there?

[22:09:58] MOORE: Yes, they certainly do. He has a great organization here in South Carolina. Now the one caveat to Hugh's point about Evangelicals is that Evangelicals are not all the same. There's quite a division as you go from the upstate here in South Carolina across the midland to the low country in the style and tone that certain types of Evangelicals like. I think we'll see that play out in the next 10 days or so.

LEMON: OK. Now to the Bush's they have strong ties in your state particularly with the military. We know that President Bush is going to campaign for him. He's already recorded a radio ad. Is the former president popular enough there to be a major asset to his brother?

MOORE: That's the question. South Carolina has a very high percentage of military affiliate voters, either active duty, retired, or family members who serve in the military. I think that's the big question, can President George W. Bush help Jeb to convert come of the undecided into his favor or maybe flip votes, so, we'll see.

LEMON: OK. Let's talk about John Kasich now. He was second in New Hampshire. He's downplaying expectations but will his momentum help him make a decent showing?

MOORE: Yes, John Kasich is very wisely downplaying at expectations. He has a good organization here, despite what some in of national media have said. His campaign is very much camped out in low country. An area where voters maybe a little bit more amenable to his message. So, certainly he's got a chance to compete here just like everyone else does.

LEMON: OK. Marco Rubio's support has fallen since that disastrous debate performance in many people's estimation. He's the son of the South. Can he regain his -- the support that he lost?

MOORE: Well, Senator Rubio appeals to have a wide array of voters in the party, a large cross spectrum of the Republican Party. I think certainly with a good debate performance on Saturday night, he could get back in the conversation here in South Carolina and beyond.

LEMON: Do you expect Donald Trump to take the top spot there has he did in New Hampshire? And how many tickets are, you know, are there out there in South Carolina?

MOORE: Well, I can tell you this, certainly we have a lot of tickets here. It's a state party. Those are going to our volunteers and county party activists. We don't give out tickets to billionaires. There aren't that many in South Carolina.

So, we'll have a big debate here on Saturday night. But to Trump in general, yes, he certainly, he believe polling, which polling has been pretty accurate in the primary State in New Hampshire, he is probably the favorite here in South Carolina. It's his race to lose. As we saw last Saturday night, these debates can change everything.

LEMON: Matt Moore, chairman of the South Carolina GOP, I appreciate it, sir. Good luck to you.

MOORE: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Thank you. CNN will be simulcasting tomorrow night's PBS News hour at democratic presidential debate between Hilary Clinton and Bernie Sanders in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 9 Eastern. Make sure you tune in.

So, ahead though, fresh off his big win, can anyone stop Trump? And Bernie Sanders goes to Harlem meeting with civil rights activist, Al Sharpton in a bid to get the support of African-Americans. But Hillary Clinton picks up a big endorsement from the black community.

And later, former New York City Mayor, Rudy Giuliani talks to me about his old friend, Donald Trump and taking on Beyonce for a Super Bowl performance he's called anti-police.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: Under me and under my police department, we save more African-American lives than all these people in the Black Lives Matter movement combined.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Marco Rubio did get a bounce from the Iowa caucuses but after a poor debate performance and a fifth place finish in new Hampshire, Rubio will be looking to pull off a major rebound in South Carolina. Can he do it?

Let's talk about this GOP race with republican strategist Kayleigh McEnany, Kellyanne Conway, president of Keep the Promise One PAC, a super PAC supporting Ted Cruz; and Matt Lewis, author of "Too Dumb to Fail."

Thank you, all, for joining us. We can see that Kellyanne was good today. She got her ashes.

KELLYANNE CONWAY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Exactly.

LEMON: Not everybody here did. Ok. So, listen, Matt, you wrote this morning, I saw a column that you wrote this morning. You said, Ted Cruz might be the real winner in New Hampshire and, quote "We are getting dangerously close to a Trump versus Cruz race." Explain how you came to that conclusion.

MATT LEWIS, "TOO DUMB TO FAIL" AUTHOR: Right. Well, obviously Donald Trump is a big winner in New Hampshire. He won a huge race but that's obvious. I think Ted Cruz is the not-so-obvious winner. And that is because Marco Rubio imploded.

Rubio was going to be Ted Cruz's rival. they were going to competing, if Marco Rubio comes out of Iowa, has a good debate, he probably finishes second in New Hampshire, it's a three-man race.

I think now what happened is we've swapped Rubio for Kasich. I don't think Kasich has -- I think he's one had hit wonder. I think Kasich performs very well in New Hampshire, I don't think he travels as well.

So, at the end of the day, this really bodes very well for Ted Cruz, who I think, you know, people are going to say, look, if you want to stop Donald Trump, maybe Ted -- you know, Ted Cruz becomes the guy that mainstream conservatives have to rally around.

LEMON: OK. Well, let's look at this because Trump and -- the Trump ad attacking Cruz. Look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'm Donald Trump. I approve this message.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What kind of man talks from both sides of his mouth on amnesty for illegals on national television and still denies it, who took more than a million in sweetheart loans from Wall Street banks and fails to disclose them as required by law. Who runs a campaign accused of dirty tricks that tried to sabotage Ben Carson with false rumors. Ted Cruz, the worst kind of Washington insider who just can't be trusted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Kellyanne, just the beginning?

CONWAY: Oh, yes, definitely. Yes. Especially when you go to South Carolina everybody just says, well, South Carolina made me do it. You know for doing his dirty tricks. I still will say what I said on this program before, Don, which is where is the contrast and substance? Where are the philosophical differences?

If Mr. Trump would just come up and say, hey, I think Ted Cruz's his tax plan is a disaster. That would be more credible than he is a nasty guy, he is mean. I don't know how many conservative voters will say Ted Cruz, a Washington insider. When the constant Washington is Bob Dole and Trent Lott and others are saying we don't like Ted Cruz. We can't stand and we won't vote for him.

So, you really can't have it both ways. And I think the different between Trump and Cruz is this. They both have set it up this year to put the establishment fight on its back, right? I mean, the one-two tag team of Trump-Cruz. However, one is talking about taking on the Washington establishment, but one is actually going there and done it.

[22:19:58] LEMON: But why change your tactics if you're winning? Why would Donald Trump change and give specifics about things or change his campaigning when he is -- he is winning?

CONWAY: He won't.

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes. Kellyanne, I have to disagree with you. Because this election is not about who is more conservative, which is what we typically see in the primary.

This election is about who is more of an outsider. And for Donald Trump that means going after Ted Cruz and saying, hey, Ted Cruz took Wall Street money. And I agree with you that Ted Cruz is a great candidate, we'd be lucky to have him, he's the second best to Trump.

CONWAY: It's so true.

MCENANY: But Trump is a true outsider.

LEMON: She just said "second best to Trump."

MCENANY: Second best. Trump is a true outsider. He is someone who American blood because he's not beholden to Washington. He is so far outside of the mainstream that people say he can never win. But look what he did last night. CONWAY: But how can your first job in Washington ever be commander

and commander-in-chief as President of United States. In other words, he was even, it worries people. Even about -- I remember it was Mitt Romney, people are worried about, well, here's a smart guy, ran business, he was governor of Massachusetts but no Washington experience at all.

(CROSSTALK)

MCENANY: No.

CONWAY: That cut both ways.

LEMON: Yes. But there difference. They're so different because when people think about Mitt Romney, they wonder if, you know, they would say the joke was did he get his battery replaced or his chip, you know, renewed or what have you.

CONWAY: And that's Marco Rubio and now...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Because he did not have the personality that Donald Trump has.

MCENANY: And commander-in-chief is about executive capacity. Look, we're dealing with ISIS here, we're dealing with a group that is beheading people on a beach. What matters is not do you have known a certain commander's names, which I would argue Donald Trump knows those things. It's about who has the strength to stand up and say enough is enough, we are America and we're here to fight.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Let's talk about...

CONWAY: He didn't just say it. He didn't just say it.

LEMON: I want to -- I want to talk about some other folks who are in the race and other folks who are not in the race. And this is for you, Matt. I mean, were you guys surprised, I was actually surprised that Chris Christie dropped out. And you know, a little bit by Carly Fiorina because the race has narrowed. Where do you think their votes are going to go, Matt? First, were you surprised and where do you think their votes are going to go?

LEWIS: I wasn't surprised by Chris Christie. I said it here on CNN Saturday night after the debate. It was a murder-suicide. Chris Christie managed to take down Marco Rubio, but he did not do himself any favors.

So, I think Chris Christie had really no path to the nomination. He might as well get out. I think he did the right thing. Carly Fiorina, same thing. Really not relevant anymore, glad -- good thing that she got out.

But, look, she did herself a lot of good. I think that Carly Fiorina now is going to be talked about as a possible running mate. If not that, certainly to have a cabinet position. So, I think it was good that she ran. I think she helped advance the debate. But the field has to winnow and I think that we're seeing that today.

LEMON: We have just a short time left today. Do you, guys, can tell me yes or no. Do think Jeb Bush is staging a comeback story that Americans can get around? Anyone here? Yes, no?

MCENANY: Maybe in the establishment lane but nowhere else.

LEMON: Kellyanne.

CONWAY: I said in your program last week he should stay into South Carolina. It's Bush friendly territory, military households but they're deluding themselves to think that he can get past common core, amnesty, and all the conservative processes that will not be forgiven.

MCENANY: yes.

LEMON: Matt?

LEWIS: Look, it's nice to see him. He's loosening up. I think he's been liberated. It's good to see him in this thing I think on a high note, but it is not happening for him this year.

LEMON: All right. I have a little bit more time, Matt. Do you think Kasich can have a repeat in South Carolina or does he have enough money to make it to the states that, you know, will be more favorable to him do you think?

LEWIS: Look, I think John Kasich, you know, he was tailor-made for New Hampshire, he's curmudgeonly, he's a contrarian, the independent, the unaffiliated voted for him. Completely different in South Carolina. Kasich is the kind of republican that liberals think republicans want to nominate.

MCENANY: Right.

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: Yes.

LEWIS: I don't think he fits anywhere except if he makes it to Ohio.

LEMON: Why not?

CONWAY: Kasich, he spent $12 million and did 106 town halls in New Hampshire. He can't do that between now and South Carolina and then do it in every state. In fact, they admitted today that Kasich campaign that his next big play is in Michigan, which is not even any time soon.

LEMON: You say that Rubio and he has a different strategy moving forward. What needs to change?

CONWAY: I think what happened to Rubio is he was fixing to go into South Carolina as the establishment alternative to Cruz and Trump.

LEMON: Yes.

CONWAY: And make it a three-man race. He now has to go after the Evangelicals because Kasich and Bush are crowding that establishment lane. And Mr. Trump of course is in the -- you know, he's in a lane called by himself called the Trump lane. But he's a little bit conservative and I think he also have said I can make deals, I can work with the establishment.

So, Rubio has to figure out which one he's more comfortable in. Look, Rubio's problem goes beyond the debate last Saturday night.

MCENANY: Yes. He's not showing up for the Senate namely.

CONWAY: He said -- yes. He's not showing up for the very key vote to fund the military to defund Planned Parenthood. Rubio was at a fund- raiser in all places in New Hampshire. He came in fifth. His biggest problem in South Carolina is his amnesty roots.

He's never explained it a way, part of the gang of eight, standing there with Chuck Schumer and Harry Reid which will come up in ads in Nevada. And now Marco Rubio has doubled down on it, Don, He have said I'm for benefit, I'm for in-state tuition benefits for illegal immigrants. But South Carolinians are struggling to pay for college for their own children. They don't like things like that.

LEMON: Thank you, Kellyanne. Thank you, Kayleigh. Thank you, Matt.

MCENANY: Thank you.

LEMON: I appreciate it.

LEWIS: Thank you.

LEMON: Coming up, he's just leaning towards the democrats. But Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders are vying for the African-American votes. And the right endorsement could be key? More on that next.

[22:25:01] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: There is some good news for Hillary Clinton tonight, coming off a bruising loss in New Hampshire. The Congressional Black Caucus PAC is endorsing her for president.

Joining me now to discuss this Representative Hakeem Jeffries, he is a CBC, Congressional Black Caucus PAC board member.

Thank you, sir, for joining us. How are you doing?

HAKEEM JEFFRIES, CONGRESSIONAL BLACK CAUCUS PAC BOARD MEMBER: Good. Good evening, Don. Good to see you.

LEMON: Yes. Good to have you on. Why are you and the Congressional Black Caucus throwing your support behind Hillary Clinton?

JEFFRIES: Well, first, I congratulate Senator Bernie Sanders on a significant victory in New Hampshire.

But I think the members of the Congressional Black Caucus across many different generations, the members in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, Don, have collectively concluded that Hillary Clinton is the right person for the job.

She could both get elected and she's ready, willing, and able on day one to step into 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and actually implement the dramatic that we need in this country building upon the significant accomplishments of President Barack Obama.

LEMON: I notice that you didn't mention the 20 something's, which is a lot of the millennials that because they didn't come to consistent. Maybe they are not members of the Congressional Black Caucus. But that's where Bernie Sanders that has really strong support amongst that group.

[22:30:04] JEFFRIES: Well, he should be commended for bringing additional people into the political process. But I would ask this, Senator Sanders had talked about a political revolution. Who is best prepared actually to bring about the type of revolutionary change that we need in this country?

And I think when you look at Hillary Clinton's track record, going all the way back to her early days as a young lawyer with the Children's Defense Fund, the prison in industrial complex trying to deal with the fact that teenagers were being held in prisons with adult inmates, all the way through her time in Arkansas as the first lady there when she established a legal clinic that benefited many low-income individuals including a lot in the African-American community.

When she was First Lady in Washington, D.C. in the 1990s, she was instrumental in the enactment of the Children's Health Insurance Program, which was sort of a bridge between Medicare and the Affordable Care Act that was passed in 2010.

And then of course as a senator from the great State of New York where I hail from, she help to champion the wide variety of issues, co- sponsored legislation, for instance, in racial profiling and criminal justice.

She's been a consistent voice from day one. And that's why I've got the confidence that she's the right person for the job.

LEMON: OK. You say that and I'm sure you read this article in The Nation Today by Michele Alexander who said, you know, people wonder if she should be judged on what her husband did.

But, you know, you're saying what she did as First Lady. And in this article and I'm paraphrasing here, it said, basically as First Lady, she stood behind policies from her husband that were detrimental to African-Americans that didn't help African-Americans. They were the worse when it comes to mass incarceration, when it came to unemployment when it came to finding jobs for African-Americans.

So, what do you -- and some people look at this as scathing blow, especially people who are Hillary Clinton supporters.

JEFFRIES: Well, I've got tremendous respect for Michelle Alexander. She's an important scholarly voice in the debate about what's going on in black America today. But let's assess the situation. She's being criticized, Hillary Clinton, for the 1994 crime bill. That was a policy put into place in part by her husband.

There were democrats and republicans who actually got it wrong in the 1990s. I wasn't a member of Congress at the time. I was just a kid getting out of college.

But Bernie Sanders actually was a member of the House of Representatives at the time who voted for the 1994 crime bill. We hear a lot of talk about political revolution. I don't understand where was his revolutionary instincts at that particular point in time?

So, as far as I'm concerned, Don, you can take the 1994 crime bill and it's a wash. It was a mistake, but it was a mistake that Bernie Sanders actually voted for as a member of the House of Representatives.

LEMON: Yes.

JEFFRIES: If you actually look at the condition of African-Americans economically during the 1990s, you had amongst the lowest rate of poverty in the black community in modern history in large part because of the booming economy $20 million...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But you also had more African-Americans going to jail, more people of color affected by unfair drug policies when it comes to crack cocaine versus powder cocaine, all of that was under President Bill Clinton's policies.

JEFFRIES: Well, you had the failed war on drugs that began in earnest really in 1971 when Richard Nixon declared drug abuse public enemy number one. At a time though, about 350,000 Americans incarcerated, in states we've got 2.3 million.

And it is true, that 1994 crime bill authorized about $13.4 billion in prison construction. And guess what? If you look back at Senator Sanders' comments on that particular provision, he supported the $3.5 billion in prison construction money that resulted in an explosion of the prison population from around 800,000 to the 2.3 million that we have.

LEMON: So, you're saying...

(CROSSTALK)

JEFFRIES: There is no clean hands there.

LEMON: ... you're saying this all of this hype about Bernie Sanders being an outsider or maverick or revolutionary is all made up or at least smoke and mirrors. Because and you also said that Bernie Sanders -- I'll let up respond.

You said that Bernie Sanders may be missing in action in the Senate and there is no credibility to the things that he is saying at the twilight of his political career. Why do you feel so strongly about that?

JEFFRIES: Well, I think the question really is Senator Sanders who I have great respect for. But in the context of choosing between Hillary Clinton and the Senator from Vermont, we're got to ask this question ad e should hold him to his own standards.

He's talked about a political revolution. But Senator Sanders actually has spent a significant amount of time in public service. He was a mayor for eight years, he was a member of the House of Representatives for 16 years. He's in his tenth year in the United States Senate.

By my account that's 34 years in public service and I can't find a scintilla of evidence of revolutionary change that he actually is responsible for implementing during that period of time.

And so, I think we all have to ask our questions. The rhetoric is great and many of the things that he's talked about I think are important. But at the end of the day, can he translate that rhetoric into reality. And based on 34 years of public service, I see no evidence that that can happen.

LEMON: Representative Hakeem Jeffries is in the Congressional Black Caucus. Thank you very much. We appreciate you joining us here on CNN Tonight.

[22:35:04] JEFFRIES: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Thank you. Coming up, can Bernie Sanders break down Hillary Clinton famous firewall with African-American voters? More on that, next. We'll have a representative from Bernie Sander's campaign, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: One of Bernie Sanders's first stops after winning the New Hampshire primary, no, not Disneyland, it was Harlem for a meeting with civil rights activist, Al Sharpton at world famous Sylvia's Restaurant. Why Harlem and why now?

Well, let's talk about that Symone Sanders, Bernie Sanders' national press secretary. So, first of all, congratulations, your campaign had a great night the other night. How are you feeling about that?

SYMONE SANDERS, BERNIE SANDERS' NATIONAL PRESS SECRETARY: Thank you, Don. We feel great. You know, we didn't take anything for granted in New Hampshire. We had a really great ground game. Shout out to our entire crew in New Hampshire.

LEMON: Shout -- are you shouting out on my program? Shout out! Shout out!

SANDERS: Yes, shout out to our -- shout out to our campaign because we really invested in our ground game. You know, folks, try to say we won because of proximity. But we won because our message resonated. And we are happy about the win and now we are looking forward to Nevada, South Carolina, March 1, and beyond.

[22:40:00] LEMON: OK. Since you're shouting out, I'm going to say that Bernie Sanders was in my hood today, because I live in Harlem. He was there with Al Sharpton. They have lunch. How did this meeting come about?

SANDERS: You know, Ben Jealous, who recently endorse us, you know, spoke with Reverend Sharpton. And the meeting just came together, you know. He noted that perhaps the two of them should meet, Reverend Sharpton agreed and there was a really great conversation that was had today. So, we are happy.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: What did they talk about?

SANDERS: Well, it was a private meeting, Don, so I'm not going to go into the nitty-gritty details. What I would...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: A private meeting that we have the video of on television but go ahead...

SANDERS: Look, what happened in the meeting today is Reverend Sharpton spoke to Senator Sanders about issues affecting the African- American community. They talked about Flint, they talked about economic inequality. And Reverend Sharpton challenged the senator.

You know, he asked him about his ability to, you know, really connect with African-American voters, to really carry the mantle of our issues and the senator had great answers to those questions. It was a very robust conversation, and we look forward are additional conversations with others in the civil rights leadership. Because Senator Sanders is actively working to earn the support of African-American voters in this country.

LEMON: I want to -- I want to talk to you more about that about African-American support. But let's be honest here. You know, and you know I know Al Sharpton, right? He's seen as a polarizing figure.

Many of the people who are your staunchest supporters, young people, don't see him -- many of them, don't see him as a leader anymore, that he is somewhat of the past, and is tied to traditional politics in Washington.

Do you think that was a good move for your candidate to meet with someone who may be seen in that light?

SANDERS: You know, I think it's always a good move to reach out and connect with folks and have a dialogue about addressing issues in the African-American community and in communities of color. So, we are happy that we met with Reverend Sharpton today. We have had

additional meeting with other folks that weren't necessarily plastered on CNN. Because we are -- we are committed to...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Like?

SANDERS: Because were committed to reaching out...

LEMON: Like?

SANDERS: ... and connecting with folks. Don, look, you know what? Nine months ago, nobody thought Senator Sanders was a serious candidate in this race. he got into the race, folks did not take him seriously.

We have now demonstrated that Senator Sanders is a serious candidate. We have demonstrated that he can go toe to toe with Secretary Clinton, not only in states like Iowa or New Hampshire but we've demonstrated that he can go toe to toe with her on the debate stage.

And now, we are going to demonstrate that Senator Sanders message does resonate with communities of color and that we can go toe to toe with her in States like Nevada, like South Carolina, and in March 1 states.

LEMON: I'm going to let you -- I let you finish, but you still didn't acknowledge who else he was meeting with so I'm just going to...

SANDERS: Don, look. Don, look, I'm -- we -- what's so great about Senator Sanders, I mean, this is being real.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I got you Symone. I'm just messing with you.

SANDERS: What's so great about Senator Sanders, he is, I mean, he is authentic, Don.

LEMON: Yes.

SANDERS: So, we're not pasting every single meeting we have on the front pages of the newspapers or the television. But what we are doing we are in the barber shops, like, I like to say the barber, the beauty shops and...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But, these are -- yes. This is an acknowledgement, though, that you are working to gain support of the African-American community and something that is seen as a weakness for him, correct ?

SANDERS: I would -- some might call it a weakness. I would like to call it an opportunity.

LEMON: OK. SANDERS: You know.

LEMON: Fair enough. Thank you, Symone. I appreciate it.

SANDERS: Thank you.

LEMON: All right. We'll see you soon.

After losing New Hampshire, the Clinton campaign sent out a memo saying that as she -- saying that as heads to states with more diverse voters. She is -- she is well-positioned to build a strong, potentially insurmountable lead. But does Clinton have the African- American vote sewn up?

Joining me now is Michael Nutter, CNN political contributor, the former democratic Mayor of Philadelphia who is a Hillary Clinton supporter; and Van Jones, political commentator.

Thank you, guys, for coming on. So, you heard Symone there going toe to toe with me. She's a force to be reckoned with. And we like having her on.

Van, black voters have been loyal to both Bill and Hillary Clinton for many years now. The big question is, is that changing or can she still count on that support?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well...

(CROSSTALK)

MICHAEL NUTTER, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Don, you never take any support for granted to any constituency.

LEMON: Van first. Van first. Go ahead, Van.

NUTTER: I'm sorry.

LEMON: That's OK.

JONES: Well, let's be honest. It is not news when Bill Clinton goes to Harlem, OK? Bill Clinton had offices in Harlem. It's not news when Hillary Clinton goes to Harlem. So, we have to be very, very honest here.

I think Bernie Sanders has a lot of room to grow in the black community and I think he will -- he will grow in the black community. But where we are right now, he has not made those strong connections yet.

Philosophically yes, historically yes, but practically, not yet. And so, he starts with a -- he has a huge head start. The reason why he has the ability to catch up, though, at least in part, is because I believe his message resonates so strongly with the younger African- American activist like you just had on, like Ben Jealous who used to be NAACP and others, Michelle Alexander, who, you know, wrote the book... (CROSSTALK)

LEMON: And we're going to talk more about that. We'll talk more about that.

[22:45:00] JONES: Yes.

LEMON: And especially in the way that we are discussing race now, the way it is framed now. It is framed in mass incarceration that Black Lives Matter, police brutality. That is the structure in which we frame it now.

But Michael, quickly, though.

NUTTER: Yes.

LEMON: Before we go on and talk about that, why do you think the Clintons hold such a special appeal for so many black people?

NUTTER: Well, because the relationships are so longstanding. They're so deep. They're real. There are real people who can testify to the nature of these relationships, folks who have been lifted up in positions either working with President Clinton or with Secretary Clinton in their respective offices, their levels of different service.

And so, you know, it's not a matter of, you know, just trying to jump start something or start having these kinds of meetings, as you said. It's not news when either the president or the secretary go to Harlem. There are no cameras following them around. It's not -- it's a brand new thing.

LEMON: OK.

NUTTER: It's their life's work. And so, but, again, as I was starting to say at the beginning, Hillary Clinton will take nothing for granted, not take any votes for granted, not take any group of people together. And I know there's a lot of focus now on the African- American vote.

Again, this is a presidential race, there are all kinds of votes out there and as we move out of Iowa and New Hampshire, you are going to see greater diversity in many of the other states. And the African- American community will play a significant role in this race as we always do in each and every race.

So, Senator Sanders will do what he thinks he needs to do. And he's kind of trying to, you know, jump start a new relationship with the African-American community, while at the same time Secretary Clinton will enhance the longstanding, decades long relationship. And as Representative Jeffries highlighted earlier, you know, there is a lot of support in the African-American community for Senator Sanders.

LEMON: OK. Van, you can respond after the break. Mayor, forgive me for calling you Michael. I'm going to get a heed of myself, you're still the Mayor of Philadelphia and I should respect that. NUTTER: It's all right.

LEMON: So, both of you stand by, we're going to continue to talk about this conversation and talk about two people who came out today in support of Bernie Sanders.

Bernie Sanders won just about every demographic in New Hampshire except non-white voters. We'll talk about that as well, next.

[22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: With New Hampshire and Iowa in the rear view mirror, the fight for African-American votes is now crucial in the battle for the democratic nomination.

Back with me now is former Mayor of Philadelphia, Michael Nutter, and Van Jones. So, Van, you first. Several prominent African-Americans have already announced that they are not supporting Hillary Clinton. (Inaudible) he quotes, announced today that he will be voting for Sanders, as well as Cornel West. The former NAACP head, Ben Jealous as you mention, and also you saw Michele Alexander come out with the nation.

And this really what many Clinton reporters view as scathing article and they're concerned about it. You're not necessarily surprised about that?

JONES: No, no, I'm not. Because there's this big myth that the African-American community is a sort of monolith, that is sort of behind the Clintons. We'd declared him the first black president. We love him. And a lot of that is true. There is affection for the Clintons.

But it's not a bottomless well of affection. And for these younger voters, their issue is mass incarceration. Just like the Latino community has a thousand blessings a thousand problems, but the issue they have lifted up is immigration. They have other problems that they lifted that when the young African-American...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I think many people said the number one thing for Hispanics and for everyone though, would be the economy beyond the issue.

JONES: Well, sure. But when you talk -- sure, sure. But when you talk about what is the issue that they have lifted up as almost like a do- or-die issue, the immigrant -- immigration issue has been a dear issue.

For these younger African-Americans with Black Lives Matter, the issue of mass incarceration and criminal justice reform has been their issue. It's a similar thing. And so, because of that, the Clintons look different to these younger voters.

They look at Bill Clinton as someone who really ushered in this mass incarceration era. You know, a million people behind bars when Clinton came into office, two million when he left. And Clinton himself has said that, you know, he's got some regrets about that.

But you have to remember, that is the lens now for a whole generation of young African-Americans and they look at the Clintons very different. They don't have that same affection. That means they are open to an argument from a Bernie Sanders.

LEMON: I don't know if younger people would think that black people are in jail because of Bill Clinton. I don't know if they have that historical knowledge. Maybe they do. I could be wrong about that. But, go ahead, Mayor. What do you think?

NUTTER: Yes. I mean, well, just, I mean, the Black Live Matter movement -- Black Lives Matter -- Matters movement has raised a number of issues. Certainly mass incarceration is a significant issue in their agenda and it should be in the agenda of all of us, is certainly of concern to me.

But, I mean, Van, it's not the only issue. And certainly having a job, having economic opportunity, even re-entry opportunities making sure our kids are getting education and that we're safe on our streets are certainly significant issues in and of themselves to the Black Lives Matter movement and all Americans.

So, as the African-American community is not monolithic, it's also not, you know, mono issue. It's not a single issue consistency either. And so, let's, you know, African-Americans have the right to have as many issues and concerns on their mind as they want to.

JONES: Yes. Mr. Mayor, I'm just trying -- I'm trying to -- if you're trying to understand where there is an opening, why there may be some squishiness here, why when you look up in South Carolina you may have 30 or 40 percent for Bernie Sanders.

When you scratch those numbers, I think what you'll see is this has become an issue for a section of the community that is a very vocal section. That's all I'm saying. Certainly the issue of the economy is an issue...

(CROSSTALK)

NUTTER: All right. I understand.

LEMON: Yes, we get it. And the way that -- the way that...

NUTTER: And similar to what Don said.

LEMON: ... what -- how race is being framed at this particular time. Because before, it was about jobs and the economy. And then it was during the housing crisis when people are losing their houses.

[22:55:00] And they said, you know, when America catches a cold, black America gets the flu. But this particular time and it's around mass incarceration and police brutality. I have to ask you, Mayor. Hillary Clinton...

(CROSSTALK) NUTTER: There are a lot of issues out there.

LEMON: .... did however get the support of the mothers of Treyvon Martin, Sandra Bland, Eric Gardner, and several African-American mothers whose children were victims of...

(CROSSTALK)

NUTTER: Yes. The Congressional Black Caucus path.

LEMON: Yes. So, what significance will these women do you think and the Congressional Black Caucus will it have in the Clinton campaign? If you can do it quickly. I'm almost -- I'm out of time, we need to get to the top of hour.

NUTTER: Yes. I mean, it's significant and there will be more probably on both sides. I mean, let's -- let the race play out. Nevada, South Carolina, get to Super Tuesday accumulation of delegates. I mean, it's a complicated scenario here and let the voters decide.

LEMON: OK. I want you gentlemen to stick around because you're going to listen to a conversation that I had with Rudy Giuliani and you'll get to respond to that.

Just ahead, former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani weighs in on Donald Trump's campaign and how it is shaking up the GOP. And I'm going to ask him why he is so critical of Beyonce's performance at the Super Bowl, which he called anti-police.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Thousands cheer Donald Trump tonight at campaign rally in South Carolina fresh off of his overwhelming victory in the New Hampshire primary.

The countdown for South Carolina, the primary there is on. It is 11 o'clock in the East.

[23:00:00] This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Is the republican establishment ready to take Trump seriously? I'll ask former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani tonight. He weighs in on Trump's impact on the GOP race.