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CNN'S AMANPOUR

Boris Johnson's Father on Brexit Debate; Former Homeland Security Chief on Sharing Key Information; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired February 22, 2016 - 14:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:00]

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: the flamboyant but powerful mayor of London has raised the heat in the U.K.'s critical Brexit

debate. Boris Johnson has turned against his party leader and prime minister, David Cameron, by backing the "Out" campaign.

But that also pits him against his own family. Boris' father joins us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STANLEY JOHNSON, BORIS' FATHER: If I was giving Boris advice about his career, the last thing I would advise him to do would be to have come out

the day before yesterday against Europe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Also ahead, the former director of U.S. Homeland Security, Janet Napolitano, on Brexit insecurity, Apple and Trump's border

war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANET NAPOLITANO, FORMER DIRECTOR, U.S. HOMELAND SECURITY: A wall is not going to protect the border the way it's being advertised.

I was famous as a governor for saying, "You show me a 10-foot wall, I'll show you a 12-foot ladder."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

It will be the single most important decision facing Britain for generations to come. And today, Prime Minister David Cameron went to

Parliament to launch his "In" Europe campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CAMERON, PRIME MINISTER, GREAT BRITAIN: British jobs and British business depend on being able to trade with Europe on a level playing

field.

So we wanted new protections for our economy to safeguard the pound, to promote our industries, including our financial services industries, to

protect British taxpayers from the costs of problems in the Eurozone and to ensure that we have a full say over the rules of the single market, while

remaining outside the Eurozone.

And we got all of those things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So getting what he calls special status for Britain in the U.K., the prime minister was nonetheless dealt a serious blow on Sunday night,

when the charismatic mayor of London, Boris Johnson, finally came out for the "Out" campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BORIS JOHNSON, MAYOR OF LONDON: The last thing I wanted was to go against David Cameron or the government. But after a great deal of heartache, I

didn't think there was anything I could do. I will be advocating to leave because I want a better deal for the people of this country, to save them

money and to take back control.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: The London mayor is best known for helping to bring the 2012 Olympics to the city, maintaining the city's special financial status and

expanding its bus lanes.

But Johnson's critics say that he's only defying the prime minister to further his own political ambition of one day replacing him. Now the

latest public opinion poll has 54 percent of the British people wanting to remain inside the E.U. and 46 percent wanting to leave.

It's an issue not just splitting the ruling political party but families as well, as I found when Boris Johnson's father, Stanley Johnson, joined me

here in the studio. Now he knows Brussels very well. He was an MEP for five years and now co-chairs Environmentalists for Europe.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Mr. Johnson, welcome to the program.

STANLEY JOHNSON: Glad to be here.

AMANPOUR: What can the discussion around your family dining table be, with your son, the mayor of London, coming out against the prime minister and

against staying in Europe?

STANLEY JOHNSON: Well, I've got to say, it took me a little bit by surprise. I mean, I read his article in the paper this morning, in "The

Daily Europe (ph)," and last night I watched him on telly and I had to say to myself, this has taken me by surprise.

And yet, and yet, I could see it coming, because this is a man who spent a lot of time thinking about what he was going to say. I mean, it is the

fruit of years of cogitation. It goes back really to all the time we were in Brussels, 20 or 30 years ago.

AMANPOUR: You say you were in Brussels and he's come out against Brussels. You were a member of the European parliament there.

STANLEY JOHNSON: I had even longer leanings than that because way back when, Britain joined the -- what was then the European Economic Community,

the EEC, back in 1973, I was about the eighth Briton, I think, to be appointed to a position in Brussels.

AMANPOUR: So you have a very different view than your son?

STANLEY JOHNSON: Do you know, for me, I go back, as I say, to those blissful days in '73, when it was very exciting for Britain to go into

Europe. We went in of course with Denmark and with Ireland. It was almost from New Dawn, the conservatives, remember under Edward Heath, very

positive.

I had six unbelievably interesting years in the European Commission, driving through the first environmental action program. And then --

[14:05:00]

STANLEY JOHNSON: -- 1979, first direct elections to the European parliament and what happens?

I get elected with 95,000 majority.

That's amazing, isn't it?

A majority over the next person.

But the conservatives, do you know how many we had?

We had 61 MEPs. So the conservatives were totally enthusiastic about Europe, in those days, I'm talking now, you know, 1979, 1980, 1981.

And it really wasn't until Ms. Thatcher started banging her handbag on the table, saying, I want our money back, that the atmosphere in the party

changed.

AMANPOUR: You, though, are pro- staying in Europe. Your other two sons are. One of them is a minister, in fact, in David Cameron's government of

universities and science.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: And you are the co-chair of the Environmentalists for Europe.

Why is it that you disagree with your son?

STANLEY JOHNSON: It's quite -- it's really quite simple. It's a matter of vision. And his vision is exactly the same as mine. But he draws a

different conclusion from it. Let me explain.

What does the argument boil down to?

It boils down to how much sovereignty are you prepared to sacrifice in the interest of a wider goal?

Now when we all came in, as I said, in 1973, when we repeated the recollections and commitments in 1979, it was perfectly clear for me, then,

that yes, of course, Britain was going to lose a bit of sovereignty because some decisions are taken, which we don't necessarily agree with.

Some decisions are taken by the European Court of Justice, which we don't necessarily agree with. But that's the price you pay to be a fish in a

larger pond, a slightly, you know, maybe not quite as big a fish as you might be just in your own pond but the pond itself is bigger.

So but Boris, I think, over the years, has taken the slightly different view of the sovereignty issue. And that's what you saw coming out.

AMANPOUR: Right, but the prime minister says that he has stopped the idea of an ever-closer union. So to the direct sovereignty issue, it obviously

won't be absolute sovereignty. But it stopped and he has special status.

Are you convinced from your perspective that the prime minister has got as good as he could get from the European leaders?

STANLEY JOHNSON: Well, I think he could probably, to answer your questions directly, he could probably have continued to ask for more on the migration

issue. I tell you why because I have a feeling that there's going to be pressure -- there is already pressure from many other countries in Europe

to have another careful look at this migration issue.

And in particular, at the implications of the free movement of labor for Europe. I think people are going to realize that maybe we've got to row

back a bit on that. And so I would have liked to see him push a bit harder on that one, for me.

AMANPOUR: In his speech to Parliament, the prime minister couldn't resist taking a swipe at Boris for making a decision that he thought was based on

his own political agenda, in other words, to one day be the leader of the party and the prime minister.

STANLEY JOHNSON: Do you know, I think that is -- that's a complete misreading of the situation.

I mean, frankly, if I was a career planner, if I was giving Boris advice about his career, the last thing I would advise him to do would be to have

come out the day before yesterday against Europe.

Because what was he looking for?

He was looking for, in career terms, a good ministerial job falling in his lap the day after his mayoralty ended. Don't tell me that's going to fall

in his lap now.

AMANPOUR: The "Financial Times" has conducted a poll at the beginning of this year and it spoke to, you know, 100 or so economists.

More than three-quarters of them said that leaving the E.U. would be bad for the U.K. in the medium term and its economic prosecutes, nine times

more than the 8 percent who thought the economy would benefit.

That's an issue, isn't it?

STANLEY JOHNSON: I absolutely agree with that. And, of course, the reason I am also pushing the environmental benefits is I have a feeling these have

not been sung as much as they could have been.

For example, the prime minister talked about a stronger Britain, a safer Britain, a better off Britain. I didn't hear him talk about a greener,

cleaner Britain. And yet, you know, I spent 20 years on these environmental issues.

AMANPOUR: When you look at the idea of the great British people casting their votes on June 23rd, as the prime minister has now set that date for

the referendum, it is -- he is right that it's a leap in the dark.

STANLEY JOHNSON: You mean Brexit is a leap in the dark?

AMANPOUR: Yes, Brexit.

(CROSSTALK)

STANLEY JOHNSON: Of course it's a leap in the dark. A leap in the dark might be a big leap backwards in the dark. Again, I don't want to do

project fear. That's not what I'm on about. I would prefer to look forward, if you don't mind, Christiane.

May I call you Christiane?

AMANPOUR: Please.

STANLEY JOHNSON: I would be so thrilled to do that.

Just looking ahead, I look at all these things, I look at population, I look at climate change, I look at global warming, I look at biodiversity,

the loss of biodiversity and I say to myself, these are issues which really have to be treated on a multinational, multilateral basis. And it would be

very, very sad --

[14:10:00]

STANLEY JOHNSON: -- to lose that opportunity.

I'm not blaming Boris. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Boris. As I say, he took a view and I respect that view. And, in the end, people will

decide.

AMANPOUR: If you were a betting man -- and you've seen the polls already; a slim majority of British people want to stay in the E.U. -- what do you

think will happen June 23rd?

STANLEY JOHNSON: I am fairly convinced that we will stay in the E.U. on June 23rd.

I'm sorry that the pound is dipping --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: I was going to say, on Boris' declaration, the pound dipped to a seven-year low.

STANLEY JOHNSON: I've just seen a film called "The Big Short" --

AMANPOUR: Yes, indeed.

STANLEY JOHNSON: -- as I just wonder --

AMANPOUR: -- all our pockets --

STANLEY JOHNSON: -- silly, silly joke. Silly joke.

No, I think that -- I think -- I think that the vote on June 23rd will be OK.

AMANPOUR: Did Boris tell you how he had discussed his decision with the prime minister?

STANLEY JOHNSON: No, of course not, of course not, heaven's sake. I mean, you know, families are families, we talk about trivial matters, that's what

families do. That's what keeps them together.

AMANPOUR: You are going to be talking about serious matters for the next four months.

STANLEY JOHNSON: Only over the airwaves, I think.

AMANPOUR: All right, Mr. Johnson, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

STANLEY JOHNSON: A real pleasure. I really enjoyed it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So a house divided over one of the most serious existential debates ever to face this nation.

After a break, the international perspective with the United States' former Homeland Security chief Janet Napolitano.

In or out?

Which will make Britain and the rest of Europe more secure?

Find out after this.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Now if the U.K. votes to leave the E.U., it will have a much harder time fighting terror. That is a warning from the E.U.'s law enforcement agency,

Europol.

When it comes to keeping a country safe, no one understands the challenge better than President Obama's former U.S. Homeland Security chief, Janet

Napolitano, who served during major shifts in immigration policy and also the Boston Marathon bombing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Former Secretary Napolitano, welcome to the program.

NAPOLITANO: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: Right now, let's just start with the whole E.U. debate here.

What is your view in terms of security, in terms of keeping this country safe, which is on everybody's minds, what are the pros and cons in your

view of staying in or getting out of the E.U.?

NAPOLITANO: Well, I think -- and I don't want to get involved in Brexit, per se; I'm from the United States, after all and that's for people here to

decide.

But for security, one of the key things you have to have is effective information sharing data about passengers, for example, in international

air travel; who's coming in, who's coming out.

And so whatever system is derived, you really have to focus on how do you best protect people in an era where people are moving around all the time?

And it starts with good, effective information sharing.

AMANPOUR: Let's flip back to the United States because there's a massive border issue there. The Republican candidate, certainly the leading

candidate, Donald Trump, has made a border and keeping people out and the sort of, some might say, the demonization of the foreigner and the wall key

to his campaign.

[14:15:00]

AMANPOUR: From your perspective again, is that what is going to keep America safe?

NAPOLITANO: Listen, my perspective is informed by growing up in a border state, New Mexico; being governor of a border state, Arizona; now living in

another border state, California. I know that border about as well as anybody.

And what I would say is, a wall is not going to protect the border the way it's being advertised.

I was famous as a governor for saying, "You show me a 10-foot wall, I'll show you a 12-foot ladder."

That's the way walls work. And so what you really need to have is an effective immigration policy and an effective security policy.

AMANPOUR: There is a broken immigration system in the United States.

Is it actually possible to do in today's highly partisan climate in the United States?

NAPOLITANO: I don't know. I wish I could say, of course, it is. But, who really knows?

I think it should have been possible to do it several years ago, when the U.S. Senate had actually passed a bill that the administration was

supportive of.

But until -- unless and until the Congress acts, the president, whoever is the president, is going to have to use their executive powers.

AMANPOUR: Obviously, Chancellor Merkel stood out as having a moral foreign policy and stood out and welcomed the refugees and there were very few

people who did that. And now she's paying the political price.

Do you think she was right to do what she did?

And do you think everybody just miscalculated the whole idea of these refugees coming over and what it would do to Europe itself?

NAPOLITANO: I think the chancellor was very brave and I admire her for going out, because anytime there is strife or people are worried about

security, it's so easy to make migrants the scapegoat for a whole lot of things.

The key question is, what are you going to do now to help these people integrate into society, until the global strife, which was the cause of

their migration to begin, is dealt with?

AMANPOUR: In the U.S. political presidential campaign, there is a huge demonization of refugees, not just migrants, but actual refugees who are

fleeing for their lives. Leave it to the late-night comedians to actually put their finger on the button.

And here's Samantha Bee at "Full Frontal," a new late-night comedy show, who went to a camp in Jordan to talk to the refugees.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Speaking foreign language).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking foreign language).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Speaking foreign language).

SAMANTHA BEE, COMEDIAN: You sound very reasonable to me. That alone makes me feel suspicious.

(LAUGHTER)

BEE (voice-over): After talking to them, it was clear they only wanted a peaceful place to raise their family.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First of all, we don't even know how many of them are really Syrian refugees.

DONALD TRUMP, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Could very well be the ultimate Trojan horse.

REP. PETER KING (R), N.Y.: There are no government records. We don't know who these people are. And when you meet with the people doing the vetting,

they tell us that.

BEE (voice-over): Person doing the vetting, Kate Dorsh.

KATE DORSH, IOM, JORDAN: The refugee program undergoes the most amount of security screening than any other immigrant visa.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Isn't that the point and it's particularly from your perspective, actually, it takes something like two years for a refugee even

to get into the United States.

NAPOLITANO: That's right. That's right. I mean, it's one level of vetting, two levels of vetting, three levels of vetting and then before

they get -- right when -- right at their border, you know, it goes on and on and on.

But here's the thing. And this is where I think some of the politicians being interviewed are missing the boat, which is to say that, if you really

look at the cases of Americans who have been accused in court, of terrorism-related activity, post-9/11, the vast majority were Americans.

They were in the country legally.

And so the focus needs to be, well, what causes someone to become a jihadist?

Why would you leave your comfortable suburban home in Northern Virginia and go live in a camp in Yemen?

AMANPOUR: To the point that you're making about criminals, Apple and the federal government have got themselves into a fight right now, because of

the San Bernardino shooting and one of the phones that the government wants to get into, to be able to see what was going on.

What is your take on the idea of the government, the FBI, having the right, having the ability to get into this kind of phone and Apple saying no?

NAPOLITANO: Well, this conflict between privacy on the one hand, so-called privacy on the one hand, and the government being able to get access, this

has been brewing for a long time. And usually it gets worked out and it usually doesn't become a public dispute.

In the Apple situation now, I think Apple has chosen to make this very public. The way I look at it now is we have a process. You have to go to

court. A judge looks at your papers, et cetera.

[14:20:00]

NAPOLITANO: It's not like the FBI can just go and grab your phone and say, OK, unlock it. Decrypt this phone for me.

And I'm unaware of an Apple exception to that careful law.

Now the question is, does the law contain within it the right way to measure the balance?

AMANPOUR: Do you not worry what Apple says is, that this is a precedent- setting case, not just for security in the U.S. and for the right of the prosecutor to get whatever evidence he thinks he needs, but that this could

open the door to bad actors, whether it be in Russia or in China?

NAPOLITANO: Well, I don't know that evil state actors, so to speak, if that's what Apple is saying --

AMANPOUR: That is what Apple is saying.

(CROSSTALK)

NAPOLITANO: -- have the same kind of process that the United States has. And I don't necessarily believe that everything is a, you know, a slide

downwards. And I think it remains to -- I'm not persuaded that this is that kind of a precedent for an international opening of all phones.

AMANPOUR: So you think Apple should cooperate with the government on this issue?

NAPOLITANO: Based on what I see now, I think that the government has the better case.

Why?

Because the government has the responsibility to protect the public safety of the American people.

AMANPOUR: You came out around this time last presidential cycle, around 2008, you came out for Barack Obama as the candidate to be the nominee for

your party.

NAPOLITANO: I did.

AMANPOUR: Are you prepared to come out for Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders right now?

NAPOLITANO: I've come out for Hillary Clinton. I served with her in the Cabinet. I think she is well qualified to take us into the next

generation. And even this interview illustrates the complex nature of the questions the President of the United States is going to have to confront.

AMANPOUR: Do you think Bernie Sanders has it when it comes to foreign policy or even economic policy?

NAPOLITANO: Well, again, I think if he's the nominee of our party, you know, I will support him.

However, in my judgment, her plans and her own experience make her the superior candidate.

AMANPOUR: Janet Napolitano, former Secretary of Homeland Security, thank you very much for joining me.

NAPOLITANO: Thanks for having me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Now the prestigious Berlin Film Festival focused on harrowing stories taken straight out of the news this year.

And this weekend, the film, "Fire at Sea," a documentary about Europe's refugees, was awarded the top prize, the Golden Bear, by Meryl Streep.

It's about the tiny Italian island, Lampedusa, first port of call for hundreds of thousands of refugees crossing the Mediterranean in rickety

boats.

And the director dedicated the prize to the Lampedusa residents who had, quote, "opened their hearts" to the refugees.

And after a break, we imagine another journey, one more than a century in the making, dancing her way all the way to the White House. That's next.

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[14:25:00]

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, the road to the White House is littered with political dynasties rising and falling, even in supposedly egalitarian

America. So Jeb Bush has pulled out of the presidential race, ending his chance of being the third Bush president in 30 years while Hillary remains

on track to become the second Clinton in the White House.

And talking again of the White House, imagine how long it's taken Virginia McLaurin to get there. She's 106 years old. She was born before the

Titanic sank off the coast of the U.S. She was in her 50s before racially segregating Jim Crow laws were finally brought to an end. And she retired

around the time Black History Month was founded in 1976.

And it was to mark that history that President and Ms. Obama had her in as their invited guest. And, boy, was everyone wowed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Virginia McLaurin.

VIRGINIA MCLAURIN, AMERICAN CITIZEN: Hi.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: How are you?

MCLAURIN: Oh, I'm fine.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Oh, it's so nice to see you.

MCLAURIN: Oh, it's an honor.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: You want to say hi to Michelle?

MCLAURIN: Yes.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Slow down now. Don't go too quick.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's 106.

MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: No, you are not. You are not.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, you got to slow down.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Oh, my goodness.

MCLAURIN: Thank you.

MICHELLE OBAMA: I want to be like you when I grow up.

MCLAURIN: You can.

(LAUGHTER)

PRESIDENT OBAMA: She's dancing. Come on.

So what's the secret to still dancing at 106?

MCLAURIN: Just keep moving.

Yes.

MICHELLE OBAMA: We're so happy to have you here.

And look at those nails, whoo!

MCLAURIN: Yes, sir. I thought I would never live to get in the White House.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, you are right here.

MCLAURIN: And I tell you, I am so happy.

MICHELLE OBAMA: We are happy to have you.

MCLAURIN: A black president.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Look at him. Right there.

MCLAURIN: And a black wife.

MICHELLE OBAMA: That's me.

MCLAURIN: Yes.

And I'm here to celebrate black history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And that is it for our program tonight.

Remember, you can now also listen to our podcast, see us online at amanpour.com and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank you for watching

and goodbye from London.

END