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CNN TONIGHT

Donald Trump Wins in South Carolina; Apple Gets Court Order to Unlock Syed Farook iPhone; Calls Going Out for Police Boycott of Beyonce's World Tour; Academy A wards Controversy; John Kasich Apologized to Women. Aired 11p-12mn ET

Aired February 22, 2016 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[23:00:04] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: That's Donald Trump speaking live at a campaign rally in Las Vegas. Let's listen in a little more.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're going to make it better than ever before. You know, the fact is that over the last six months, seven months, I have been going around and every crowd, it is like this all the time. The people are amazing. The people are amazing and I have been saying that. Make America great again. Make it - it is going to be better than ever before. Because our people, our people in this country are incredible.

Now, it started on June 16th that I came down. I talked about illegal immigration. In fact we have Sheriff Joe. Where is Sheriff Joe? I love Sheriff Joe. I will tell you why. There he is right there. When Sheriff Joe endorses Trump, that means there's nobody like Trump on immigration. That we know.

LEMON: All right. Again, Donald Trump speaking live in Las Vegas. We will continue to monitor that for you.

There is lot to get to this hour. Speaking of Donald Trump, his victory in South Carolina in the primary there has given him a big lead in the race for delegates. So let's talk about that now.

Jeff Dewitt is a state treasurer of Arizona who is a Trump surrogate.

Listen, you're there. You hear him talking about Sheriff Joe which you would know about. So how is the atmosphere there?

JEFF DEWITT, STATE TREASURER OF ARIZONA: The atmosphere here is great. If this is not proof, as you look around this room, that this is a movement. This is not a normal candidacy. This is a movement in America. There are over 12,000 people here that are beyond enthused to see Donald Trump who has the leadership, the courage, the will, the strength to move America forward and to make America great again. And to see this, to see the energy in this crowd and what's going on here. It really shows that something powerful is happening in America.

LEMON: OK. Let's look at the delegates, OK. And it is still early. But I want to put up this delegate count or delegate hunt. He still has 68 percent pledge delegates so far. He needs 1237 to win. But after winning in New Hampshire and then South Carolina, do you thing that he is going to run the table here? DEWITT: You know, it certainly looks like we could absolutely run the

table here. You know, we just picked up an extra delegate today in New Hampshire. Took all 50, all 50 in South Carolina. And that was not a winner take all state and we still took all 50 delegates.

So there is the potential on run the table. We'll see. I think there will be enormous pressure on Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio and John Kasich if they don't win their own states. When you have people like that, Ted Cruz from Houston. If he doesn't win Texas, I don't know how he can expect to win the presidency. And likewise, if Marco Rubio doesn't win Florida, I don't know how he would expect to win the presidency. So there is going to be enormous pressure on some of the other candidates as this moves further down the road.

LEMON: OK. You said there's a potential to run the table, not for sure that you were. SO here's what the skeptics point out, OK. That he has never won much more than a third of the votes. And as the field gets smaller, Donald Trump could start losing to a candidate who consolidates a non-Trump vote. Is that something the campaign is concerned about?

DEWITT: Well, yet, you say he has won more than a third but everyone else has won a lot less than that. So as anyone drops out, you would think proportionally they will all get more and Mr. Trump will get stronger too. So you look at a candidate like Ted Cruz. If he were to drop out, a lot of those people would go the Mr. Trump. When you go to Ben Carson, I can see a scenario where almost every single Ben Carson voter will go to Mr. Trump.

So it is kind of a false argument when like it said that all he has only won a third of the vote. You know, you can win an election without winning the entire vote. So I won my race for state treasurer with 45 percent of the vote. My opponents had 33 and 22 percent, respectively. So you never know what can happen in these races. But as anyone drops out, Mr. Trump will go higher as well.

LEMON: Jeff, I want to let you get back to the rally, but one more question before I let you go. There are reports that Rudy Giuliani, the former mayor of New York City has been in touch with Donald Trump and is advising him in some fashion. Can you share with us any information about how Donald Trump might be changing this approach as it looks more and more like he is going to be the nominee? What kind of advice and input does he need and what is Rudy Giuliani giving him?

DEWITT: You know, the best way I can say it is that Mr. Trump is a businessman. And he brings people together. And he is a great guy. He is always - he always listen to anybody who wants to call. Rudy Giuliani, you know, obviously, he is a great guy.

LEMON: So he has been in touch with Rudy Giuliani?

DEWITT: Well, yes. I mean, I think it's been well reported, yes, that he has been in touch with Rudy Giuliani. Now, the aspects of that, that is between the two of them. But he brings people together. And I think it is great to hear that people like that are coming on board. Everybody is coming around and getting on board as they realize what Donald Trump is bringing to America is something very powerful. And everybody wants to be a part of it.

[23:05:08] LEMON: Jeff Dewitt, thank you, sir. I appreciate you coming on.

DEWITT: Thank you. Anytime.

LEMON: I want to bring in now Republican writer and commentator, Kayleigh McEnany, CNN contributor Bakari Sellers, Matt Lewis, the author of "too dumb to fail" and Bob Beckel, author of "I should be dead, my life surrounding politics, TV and addiction."

OK. So you heard Donald Trump there. You heard Jeff Dewitt in Las Vegas.

Kayleigh, what do you think? Will Donald Trump run the table or is he going to hit a ceiling as some people still insist?

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, REPUBLICAN WRITER/COMMENTATOR: I think he will run the table. And in fact, I think he will run the table to the point of possibly winning every state from here on out.

Look. Cruz is ahead by five points in Texas. Cruz might win that state but Donald Trump certainly has a chance. He is ahead in Florida. You know, Rubio pose as viable challenge there but I think he will win there. You look at just this Tuesday, next Tuesday, excuse, the SEC primary. He is winning in eight of the 11 states.

I mean, this is a guy who is pulling out victories left and right. And I think will continue to do so. And one last quick point. The CNN exit poll showed 92 percent of voters in South Carolina were angry with the federal government. And I think that's what is really undergirding his campaign, that anger.

LEMON: I know that you guys are Democrats so - but I still want to ask, Bob and Bakari, do you think there's a possibility of Donald Trump as we listen to him live there in Las Vegas, that he could run the table? Bakari, you first.

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I mean, I think he can run the table in the Republican primary. Donald Trump did something amazing in South Carolina which nobody has really given him credit for. Not only did he beat the establishment in South Carolina. But he also beat everything the establishment wants the Republican Party to look like. He beat Marco Rubio, Tim Scott, Trey Gowdy and Nikki Haley and he beat them down.

LEMON: And won over evangelicals.

SELLERS: And won over evangelicals. So yes, I think he can run the table.

But on the flip side, the Republican primary in South Carolina was 96 percent white. And me and Kayleigh had this conversation all the time. And I just have to say that you cannot win the presidency of the United States with white conservatives. You simply can't. You have to be able to grow and explain your party. And I don't believe Donald Trump can do that.

LEMON: Bob Beckel, run the table?

BOB BECKEL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No. He is not going to run the table and I will tell you why. Look. This is a guy that you keep saying, Kayleigh. Bu the way he doesn't win primary left and right. He has won two, alright. Let's keep this in perspective. He lost one. But when Christie drops out of the race, Trump's numbers in South Carolina were higher and then when they came in, they were lower than everybody expected. He didn't pick up Christian votes, he didn't picked up any Fiorina votes. So I don't buy this notion that somehow Trump has got the inheritor of all these votes. I think he has a ceiling.

LEMON: Matt Lewis, I let you in. Go ahead, Matt.

MATT LEWIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Bob Beckel is a genius. I think he is exactly right as usual.

Donald Trump is the front-runner. There is no doubt about it. Trump is doing an amazing job. Stunned everybody. Surprised me from the get-go. But I do think he has a ceiling. And look. Of course, he is going to get -- if John Kasich got out tomorrow, of course, some votes would go to Donald Trump. The vast majority would not. And I think if you look at the people likely to get out in the near future, they're going to Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz. They're not going to mostly to go Donald Trump. I don't think he can get over 50 percent.

So the question is now, will there be five candidates running indefinitely? Or could you ever get Trump one-on-one? Until that happens or unless they employ my devious strategy of sort of jujitsu, I don't think they can stop him.

LEMON: OK. Before we move on here, again, we are listening in. There is Donald Trump there. He is speaking live in Las Vegas at a campaign rally. And we are talking about him being the front-runner. Can he run the table at this point?

I will give the thoughts on this one to Kayleigh then I want to move on. Kayleigh, go ahead.

MCENANY: Yes. Just quickly, Bob. I would argue with you that Iowa was a huge victory. Donald Trump came in strong second in the state that is not amenable to his point to his constituency and the kind of voters people then.

And to Bakari's point, I would argue that polling shows that he does the best among minorities of any Republican candidate. In fact Frank Lantz said he could do as well as Reagan did who won minorities more than any other Republican candidates did before.

LEMON: OK. So John Kasich is still in the race as well. So let's talk about him. He is taking heat for some comments that he made earlier about female supporters earlier on this political - in his political career. That was back in the 1970s. And this is the quote said. He said they left their kitchens to get out and support him. He apologized today in an interview with Wolf Blitzer. Listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Sure, I'm sorry. Anybody who is offended, of course. I'm not - look. Of course I'm more than happy to say I'm sorry if I offended somebody out there, but it was intended to be offensive. And if you their whole thing you'll understand the context of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Does he get a pass on this, Bakari?

SELLERS: Yes. I mean, I think he does. I mean, listen. John Kasich has run one of the most admirable campaigns of anybody that is in the circus on the Republican side. I don't believe John Kasich to be sexist. I think that he made a flippant remark. I think he made a remark. He should apologized because it was offensive. I'm sure that people will make a lot out of this. But just from watching the campaign that John Kasich is running, I just can't hold this against him. I think he needs to apologize and move on. And I think he did have some apology there.

[23:10:18] LEWIS: I don't understand why he needs to apologize for anything if it is factually true. Look. He said that when he ran for Congress in the 1970s, moms, stay at home moms came out and volunteered for him. Look, if that's factually true, I think this is why Donald Trump is winning because of this sort political correctness.

SELLERS: That's also not what he said, though. I mean, he said women came out of kitchen to put up yard signs.

LEWIS: OK. But is it true?

SELLERS: The theory that they were not working women. The theory that somehow women were second class citizens (INAUDIBLE). It's not true, Matt.

LEWIS: I don't think he suggested that. There were probably were stay at home moms who came out of kitchen and volunteered for him. If that's factually true in the 1970s, why would you apologize?

LEMON: Bob Beckel?

BECKEL: You're reaching back here now 40 years on the John Kasich quote. And Donald Trump makes more outrageous quotes every week and we don't go back and analyze those.

LEMON: But to Matt's point, that's said, that why he believes Donald Trump is winning because, you know, he is not politically correct.

BECKEL: Not only is not correct. He is flat wrong.

LEMON: But if you look at -- listen, to Matt's point. If you look at the 1970s, right. My mom was a working mom. She always worked from the 1960s on up. But if you look at the 1970s, if it is factually correct, not that women's places are in the kitchen but if women did come out of their homes as mothers who were in the home, then what's wrong with what he said?

SELLERS: It's absurd. It's offensive.

BECKEL: Well, it may be offensive but you have to put it in the context of the times. I mean, back then, most women were stay at home moms. And a lot of people did come out to help in Kasich in that race. I was involved in Ohio politics back then. But that's not the point. He gets this - we stood here spending minutes on John Kasich who is not going to be the Republican nominee and we are letting Donald Trump pass on everything from, I have to look at the transcript. Are you kidding me?

(CROSSTALK)

LEWIS: I would just reiterate. This is why people like Donald Trump are winning because somebody like John Kasich, the media forces him to apologize for something that is not offensive. This is political correctness run amok. And people are fed up with it.

SELLERS: Buy Matt, this is also the reason that the Republican Party cannot win the presidency of the United States. Because fundamentally they don't know how to talk to people of fundamentally --

MCENANY: Not true.

SELLERS: They don't know what's offensive and not offensive. Because this --

MCENANY: You know what, Bakari, it's your party that sees the world through the purviews of gender and race. Women were not offended by these comments. Women -- there are some women who work in the kitchen. There are some men who are stay at home dads who also work in the kitchen. If it is factually accurate, it is factually correct to Matt's point, then we don't see the world --

(CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: I can't believe we're having this discussion.

LEMON: Why not?

(CROSSTALK)

MCENANY: Yes, why?

SELLERS: I mean, Donald Trump has offended every segment of the population. But I will tell you this. To Matt and to Kayleigh, please continue to use this rhetoric, continue to use this dialogue in November and you will have the 45th president of the United States have a D by their name. That's just the fact of the matter.

LEMON: By thinking that, are you -- there's nothing wrong with being a stay at home mom. That's probably the hardest job anybody can have, Bakari. SELLERS: I'm not saying that. What we're saying is the way he used

the phrase. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a stay at home mom and nobody is saying that. But to infer women were coming out of the kitchen, simply coming out of the kitchen and relegating them to some second class citizenship, that is what he said. He even recognized it and he apologized.

MCENANY: That's not what he did. We live in such a high offense culture. How was it that I am woman on this panel and I wasn't offended but somehow Bakari is offended on my behalf. Like let's not get offended.

LEMON: Hang on. Before we go any further.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Stand by. I want everyone to listen and do exactly what he said and then we can talk about it more. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KASICH: You know, I went to Washington, following my mother's advice. I have been in this legislature before that at the age of 26. And how did I get elected? I didn't have anybody for me. We just got an army of people, and many women who left their kitchens to go out and go door to door and put yard signs up for me all the way back when, you know, things were different. Now you call homes and everybody is out working. But at that time, early days, it was an army of the women that really helped me to get elected to the state Senate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So who has a problem with that? Matt, do you have a problem with that?

LEWIS: No. I have a problem with the fact that he apologized. I think that shows that he is a wimp.

LEMON: I don't know if he really apologized.

LEWIS: I think he is bound to political correctness. He didn't say anything wrong. This is 40 years ago and stay at home moms helped him get elected to Congress.

LEMON: Hi did say he was sorry. So, listen. Bakari, does that change anything listening to the whole thing in context?

[23:15:05] SELLERS: No. In fact, if you listen to the woman who asked the question next. She said I want you to know that I will be voting for you but I won't be coming out of kitchen to vote for you. That was her exact quote.

LEMON: Bob?

SELLERS: So I mean, listen. I'm not sensitive. But if the person who on this panel is supporting Donald Trump doesn't have a problem with it, please continue rhetoric on that side of the aisle.

LEMON: Bob, last word.

BECKEL: Yes. I will tell you. The fact that we are going on with Kasich about this and we let Donald Trump get away with calling the only female candidate on the Republican presidential slate ugly. Calling Megyn Kelly, basically a horrible issue about bleeding --.

LEMON: We done let him get away with that, Bob.

BECKEL: Yes.

LEMON: We called him out on all of that.

BECKEL: You called him out.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Hillary Clinton responded to it. This is something that happened on the campaign trail. This had nothing to do with Donald Trump. John Kasich can stand on his own words, can he not without bringing Donald Trump into it?

BECKEL: Did we spend this much time talking about Donald Trump when he said Fiorina was ugly?

LEMON: You criticized -- yes, we did. We spent a lot of time. And you criticized the media for saying, my God, you give too much attention to Trump and then we talk about another candidate. And then, now we're not giving enough attention to Donald Trump. Which way do you want it, Bob Beckel?

BECKEL: I want Donald Trump attention paid where Donald Trump says which is he struggle the worst rhetoric out of any presidential candidate I have ever heard.

LEMON: It does. It is not affecting, by anyways.

BECKEL: Not yet.

LEMON: So, there you go.

BECKEL: A long time to go, brother.

LEMON: There I said it.

All right. Bob Beckel. Thanks, everyone. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Stay with CNN for all of this week's big political events. Tomorrow night, Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders take questions from South Carolina voters. And CNN's Democratic town hall moderated by Chris Cuomo, that is at 8:00 eastern. And then Thursday night, it is the last debate before Super Tuesday, CNN GOP presidential debate in Houston. Moderated by Wolf Blitzer. No other than Wolf Blitzer beginning at 8:30 eastern. OK? Up next, Apple versus the FBI. Should the company bow to pressure to

unlock a terrorist phone?

Plus, were some police are calling for a boycott of Beyonce's upcoming tour.

First though, let's listen to Donald Trump in Las Vegas tonight.

TRUMP: I don't even know what the hell they're talking about. It is an ad. It is a Cruz ad. It is a Cruz scam. I tell you. So the evangelicals didn't vote for him. You know why? Because they don't like liars. They are really smart people. They don't want to vote for a liar.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:20:55] LEMON: We expect the FBI to fight terror but not to be in a fight with one of America's biggest and best loved companies and that's Apple. It is all over a court order to unlock the iPhone of San Bernardino terrorist Syed Rizwan Farook. A court order that Apple is refusing to comply with and saying that they need to protect their customers. So, who is right?

Here to discuss this is Stephen Larson. He is a former U.S. district judge who is also representing San Bernardino victims, the victims' family and families and survivors. And Alan Butler, the senior counsel with the electronic privacy information center.

So, it is good to have you both of you, gentlemen, here tonight.

Stephen, I'm going to start with you. You are working with the victims' families on this case. And you are following a brief in support of the government. Explain to us what the FBI is asking Apple to do and why.

STEPHEN LARSON, REPRESENTS SAN BERNARDINO VICTIMS, FAMILIES AND SURVIVORS: Well, at this point I think the FBI is simply asking Apple to follow the court order. The time has come for Apple to comply with the court order to provide access to the cell phone.

LEMON: And so Alan, today, Apple CEO Tim Cook, he sent out a memo to the entire company. Here is what it says. He says as individuals and as a company, we have no tolerance or sympathy for terrorists. When they commit unspeakable acts like the tragic attacks in San Bernardino, we work the help the authorities pursue justice for the victims. And that's exactly what we did. Apple is a uniquely American company. It does not feel right to be on the opposite side of the government in a case centering on the freedoms and liberties that government is meant to protect.

So, you say that Apple is right to fight the FBI on this. Why?

ALAN BUTLER, ELECTRONIC PRIVACY INFORMATION CENTER: Well, I mean, to put it simply, this case isn't just about this case. Apple is looking forward to, you know, future cases where other members of this government, other governments potentially could be asking them to do the exact same thing. And Apple realizes is the significant of precedent they would say that any government agency can order them to basically rewrite their software and make their devices less secure for everyone.

LEMON: Stephen, how do you respond to that?

LARSON: Well, it's not true. There's no government agency that is ordering Apple to do anything. It is a federal judge that is ordering Apple to do something. What we have to keep in mind here is at the beginning of our country, we have the fourth amendment. You can't hide criminal evidence. You can't put in it your house, you can't put it in your bank, you can't put in it your phone. And if you do do that, if there is a probable cause for the government to obtain that information, they can go to a court and they can ask the court to issue an order. And that is what happened here.

This isn't a government agency. This isn't some rogue entity within the government trying to track down and obtain information off these iPhones. This is a federal judge sitting in riverside who has considered the application of the government, considered the government's arguments, and has ordered Apple to produce the information.

LEMON: So I want to know, Alan, what is the difference then when, you know, if there is probable cause for looking through your email, looking through your personal documents, looking through your tax records, going into your home to do a search. Why is this different?

BUTLER: Sure. Well, the problem here is that the fourth amendment is establishes protections but it doesn't grand the government authority. So just because the fourth amendment says the government can do certain searches with probable cause does not mean that evidence necessarily exist or that the government can access it. So unlike a search of an email account or of a home the government can enter, you know, the fourth amendment doesn't guarantee them access to that information.

LEMON: So here is what the director of the FBI says he wants. This is James Comey in an op-ed, he wrote this yesterday. He says we simply want the chance with a search warrant to try to guess the terrorist's passcode without the phone essentially self-destructing and without it taking a decade to guess correctly. That's it. We don't want to break anyone's encryption or set a master key loose on the land.

So, I mean, Apple is essentially saying that, you know, we would love to help fight terror as much as the next guy, but once we create this technology, that it is going to, you know, set things loose. This loose on the land. And people are going to be able to get into iPhones and people's privacy will be invaded. Are they right about that?

[23:25:03] LARSON: If that was the case, we wouldn't be talking here. There's no one more committed to the fourth amendment and privacy rights than myself. I was a federal judge. I'm a civil rights attorney now. I believe very strongly on these things. But at the same time we have some compelling interests here. And the compelling interests involves combatting this terrorist act and finding out the information. Not only for the government, but -- I want to be arguing for the victims as well. They're entitled to this information.

We are talking about a dead murderous terrorist who committed a horrendous act, who was using a cell phone that was actually owned by the county of San Bernardino. This wasn't even his own cell phone. And to suggest that he has privacy rights at this point, that trump the interests of law enforcement, given the procedures that have been followed here. Given the fact that we have gone to a federal judge. The FBI has gone to a federal judge and laid it out their case and they have obtained an order. This is not people running around the country doing all these terrible things that Mr. Cook is concerned about. I think there's some scare tactics being used here and it is not fair to the government. It is not fair to law enforcement. And most importantly, it is not fair to the victims.

LEMON: Alan, how many other iPhones are locked if criminal cases. How often does this come up?

BUTLER: Sure. So what we know is that there are 150 iPhones locked, sitting in the New York prosecutor's office right now. That he has already said On the Record, he would immediately seek a similar order if there was a precedent set in this case. And that's just in one state. And it is not just iPhones that are contained in prosecutors' offices, this concerns iPhones that are stolen or lost or misplaced. And this is a technique that could be used not only by law enforcement but it could be used by other people who want to hack these phones as well.

LEMON: All right, Alan and Stephen. Thank you very much. Great conversation. I'm sure this will continue because, you know, it is a lot more to go here. Appreciate it.

When we come right back, why some people are threatening to boycott Beyonce's tour in the wake of her super bowl performance. Who is right and who is wrong?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:30:58] LEMON: Calls are growing louder tonight for a police boycott of Beyonce's world tour. That comes in a wake of her controversial new music video "Formation" and their super bowl performance.

So joining me now is retired New York police detective Harry Houck, CNN contributor Bakari Sellers, "Entertainment Tonight" host Nischelle Turner and Kierna Mayo, editor in-chief of "Ebony" magazine.

It is good to have all of you here. So let's go.

Kierna, to you first. Some police groups are calling for a boycott of Beyonce's upcoming tour. The boycott includes asking officers to refuse to work off-duty security details for these events. Are you surprised at how deep this opposition to her performance running?

KIERNA MAYO, EDITOR IN-CHIEF, EBONY MAGAZINE: I am surprised. At first, I kind of, you know, even on the show, I thought, you know, what the heck? This is so silly. Why are we having this conversation? Because essentially I feel that Beyonce like so many African-Americans would absolutely never advocate violence against police. She is having a moment right now where she is connecting her art to a vibration that African-Americans are on.

We are standing together. Young people are saying that it is not OK for police to be violent. Remember that the advent of the black panthers happens because of the police. That's the irony here. You get the black panthers in direct proportion to police violence. It was the Black Panther party for self-defense.

LEMON: OK. So let's hear Harry. You know, some say her performance is anti-police with this references to the Black Panthers and Black Lives Matter, that movement. Do you feel that way because Kierna just address that? Do you feel that it was ant-police?

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, anti-police. It is also racist. You know, her support of the black of ration army who, by the way, alright, has assassinated over will he be rags army who by the way has assassinated over 15 police officers through the years, alright. The fact that the head of the BLA, the former head, Malik Shabazz called for the killing of whites in their families. So, you know, dressing up her dancers like the BLA definitely tells me that was a racist statement and shows support for an organization that is murdered and assassinated police officers for years.

LEMON: Bakari?

MAYO: I was just so encouraged that so many black people watched and all Americans watched that PBS documentary. Because there is a misinformation campaign that has long existed in relationship to the Black Panthers. And it is high time that we talk about the truth. And that we really begin to analyze the correct history. There's not one narrative about the black panthers. The police don't get to tell what the black panthers are. We get to define what they were for us.

LEMON: Go ahead, Bakari.

HOUCK: What about the dead police officers?

(CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: I have to laugh at Harry.

HOUCK: Come on.

SELLERS: I have to laugh at Harry Houck for actually saying that this was racist. Harry is a friend. So I have to laugh him that for actually saying this was racist because it is not. And I wish here and others were as vocal when we have young African-American men who die at the hands of police officers for committing crimes that they should not be sentenced to death for. With that being said, I think Beyonce like myself, we all agree.

Police officers go out every day and they serve and protect and they do so with such honor. However, there is a very, very specific pain that is felt by African-American that's Beyonce, like myself, like Nischelle, Like Kierna, even like you, Harry, we all agree that police officers go out every day and they serve and protect and they do so with such honor. However, there is a very, very specific pain that is felt by African-American that Beyonce and Kendrick Lamar are speaking to right now.

LEMON: Let's add another layer on top of it.

HOUCK: Why are there very few instances that occur? The very few instances that occur where police officers are involved in some kind of misconduct or maybe even murdered. Those police officers are sent to court and arrested and they are convicted, alright.

SELLERS: No, they're not.

HOUCK: Those few instance --.

SELLERS: They're not.

HOUCK: You tell me which cases. You tell me which cases.

SELLERS: We can go down the line. We can go down the line here.

LEMON: One at a time, please.

HOUCK: That what happened in Ferguson was murder, I'm sorry but it was not, OK. What happened in Staten Island was murder. I'm sorry but it was not, OK.

[23:35:05] SELLERS: I mean, we can go back. We can go back.

HOUCK: Yes, I agree.

SELLERS: We can go back to February 8, 1968, Harry. Where you had eight officers fire shots into a group of students, known as (INAUDIBLE) massacre in South Carolina State. We can actually talk about that, Harry. We can talk about the fact that we have people, whether or not it is Walter Scott.

HOUCK: Why don't we talk about the real issue?

SELLERS: We have all of these people that go without finding justice.

HOUCK: Why don't you talk about the real issues though?

SELLERS: What real issues?

(CROSSTALK)

HOUCK: Exactly. That is the real issue.

(CROSSTALK) LEMON: Harry, here's the thing. I don't think anyone here will say that there's not an issue with people killing each other of all races. But there are two -- you can walk in at the same time. You can talk about people being shot or abused by police offices and you can also talk about on the other end people who are killing each other on the streets.

But I want to get Nischelle in here. Law enforcement feels that Beyonce, Nischelle, is promoting division between law enforcement and African-American communities. I talked with the former mayor of New York City, Rudy Giuliani. He has been brought up a lot in here about this a little over a week ago and here's what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: Maybe, it might not be a bad idea for people who have the fame and celebrity that she has to teach everyone, not only in her community but in every other community to respect the police, to respect the uniform, not to make it appears if they are the enemy. But to respect the uniform of our police officers, of our military. That's the way I was brought up. That's a lot safer way to bring up your child by the way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Nischelle, this is what you do every day. You speak to artists in the entertainment industry and beyond. So what exactly is the responsibility of an artist like Beyonce in the community? And what are people at least in the industry, you would know, saying about a responsibility of someone like a Beyonce?

NISCHELLE TURNER, HOST, ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT: Right. Well, first of all to Mr. Giuliani. It is the way I was brought up as well and I'm quite sure that it is the way that Tina Knowles and Matthew Knowles also brought up Beyonce to respect the police. And I'm quite sure that she does.

You know, what I think is really interesting here is when did the conversation go from, you know, Beyonce making a statement in her art to she hates the police? I mean, I really don't even see the correlation there. And I think that it is very interesting when these people who, the majority of them, and I'm talking about the police.

Well, Harry, can you let me finish, please? I mean, I didn't interrupt you. I sat and listened to everything that you were saying. I would appreciate the same to me.

But what I was saying was that I think it is interesting these people that I consider everyday heroes, the majority of them. And I'm speaking about the police now are saying because we are mad at you, we are not going to, or we potentially don't want to do for you what we signed up to do. And that's serve and protect.

I don't know -- this is America. And we are allowed to have a voice. We are allowed to have freedom of speech. And if you don't want to serve and protect someone that you may not agree with, I'm not sure why you signed up to be a police officer. That's just my view on that.

HOUCK: We have to clear this up. Don, we have to clear up. The one issue here is not the fact that police officers don't want to protect her. These are - we are talking about side jobs that the police officers get paid extra. They get paid extra to go out. And this is volunteer work to wear the uniform and protect somebody like Beyonce, protect the venue. This is not working while you're a member of the police department. You're just wearing the uniform. This is a side job. These are jobs that the police officers are talking about that they want to boycott.

LEMON: But they are also protecting the people who go to the show as regular citizens as well.

HOUCK: This is a side job. They do not have to do this, alright. But if police officers are assigned through the police department to go and work at a concert, those officers have to do that.

LEMON: OK. As I was saying earlier, an added layer on top of this, one group, one very controversial voice is saying police don't want to protect Beyonce? I'm going to do it. Minister Louis Farrakhan, you will hear form here next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:43:10] LEMON: I'm back with Harry Houck, Bakari Sellers, Nischelle Turner and Kierna Mayo.

OK, so Mr. Louis gave a speech today for the nation of Islam, the savior's day. He praised Beyonce for taking a stance. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HON. MINISTER LOUIS FARRAKHAN, NATIONAL REPRESENTATIVE, THE NATION OF ISLAM: Sweet sister Beyonce. Now, you know, people are terrified. Beyonce? Giuliani said, on the greatest platform in the world, the super bowl. She started talking about black stuff. And white folks, we don't know how to deal with that. But when one of us shows some independence, look how you treating Beyonce now? You going to picket? You are not going to offer her police protection? I will.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I'm going to let you handle that, Bakari.

SELLERS: You come to me first. You know, my answer to this is I'm still not sure how we got to this point.

MAYO: Exactly. Me neither.

SELLERS: I am at a loss on how we got from zero to 100 in the words of the great American poet Drake, so quickly. I find myself --

LEMON: Really, Bakari?

SELLERS: Very proudly with Beyonce. Very proudly with Kendrick Lamar, not just because they're millennials and a part of my generation, but again, they are articulating so much pain that is going on in our communities. And I really wish, Harry, who is in Charleston, South Carolina right now, who is less than, you know, ten mile away from Walter Scott was killed. Less than ten miles away from Clementa Pinckney and eight others were gunned down, would just take a moment and take a deep breath. So maybe he too can understand --.

[23:45:17] HOUCK: I was there.

SELLERS: And then we can have a more productive discussion.

LEMON: So Harry, listening to that.

HOUCK: What about the pain that I feel talking about the police officers that were murdered --

LEMON: When you heard Minister Farrakhan saying, hey, if the police won't do it, I'll do it. We will do it.

HOUCK: Listen. First of all, I don't listen to what Farrakhan says. The man is a racist, you know. And he called for the death of whites. He called for the death of Jews. I mean, I wouldn't give this guy 30 seconds of my time in my life.

MAYO: Revisionist history of the black panthers. I have to keep coming back to that. It is not OK to simply discount the counter intelligence program.

LEMON: Explain it then. Go ahead.

MAYO: Well, I just encourage your viewers to watch the PBS documentary, to Google counter (INAUDIBLE) or counterintelligence program, to read (INAUDIBLE), to learn about the Black Panthers for themselves. When to fact time about this organization, it is not as simple as a single narrative. It is not just about a bunch of crazy cop killers. That is a lie. And it is important that we say this because it is --.

HOUCK: What is a lie? That they didn't kill cops?

MAYO: Did the cops kill Mark Clark and Fred Hampton? Did they assassinate them?

HOUCK: They assassinated police officers. The FBI was watching them because they were a group of criminals.

MAYO: You don't get to kill unarmed people. You don't get on kill people who are asleep because --

HOUCK: Police officers can kill unarmed people in certain instances.

MAYO: Very clear about the fact the counter intelligence program violated civil rights. You have to do the research. I bet you, Harry, yourself, are uninformed about the truth of the black panthers.

HOUCK: No, I'm not. I have seen -- I lived through the black panthers. I went after --

MAYO: Unfortunately.

LEMON: So Nischelle, the fact that we are having such an intense conversation right now.

TURNER: Yes.

LEMON: And people are saying, I don't understand how we got here from zero to 100, in his words of great poetry as Bakari says. But listen. As someone who is in the media, you and I are trained in the media. We hear it every day. I understand how we got here. There is a division on one side. It is, you know, it is -- I've been watching the people versus O.J. Simpson on FX. Amazing.

TURNER: It is amazing.

LEMON: The division about race in this country are so deep. So you have one side who are really upset and feel that police officers are not getting their fair share. Then you have people of color who have a different reality that police. It may not just be, you know, white. But then police officers. And so, I think that's why it went. From then when you have someone as controversial as Minister Louis Farrakhan, you know, coming aboard now, then things get much worse, talking about racial division. This is what's going on in culture. I understand how we got here. I want Nischelle to respond. Go ahead.

TURNER: No. I think you're right. I think that's when it becomes combustible. When you get these polarizing figures on every side of the situation, all coming together and spouting whatever rhetoric or feelings they have. Then that's when it becomes combustible. I still go back to the point of, we live in America. The greatest country in the world. And we have these rights to express ourselves.

Beyonce is an artist. I think that the song is a brilliant song. I mean, she calls it a song of empowerment and of self-love. She certainly has never called it a song, anti-police song. She has ever called the video one of anti-police. There is a scene in this where you have a young boy who is crunching in front of a police line and you see the sign, stop - the word stop shooting us. I'm not even sure where the word stop shooting us turns into I hate police. I think it is a statement.

And I think, Harry, you can agree that there's a lot of pain probably on both sides. And I think these types of conversations, because you are right, this is very intense. The air is thick right now.

LEMON: Thank you.

TURNER: These conversations sometimes need to be had, really, at the root and being raw in order to take a step forward. And I think everybody has to --

LEMON: Harry -- we will continue this conversation.

TURNER: There is giving to do on every side of it. And hopefully one day you'll understand that.

LEMON: We'll talk about this more.

HOUCK: And I hope you'll understand it also.

LEMON: Thank you very much. Everyone, stay - thanks, everybody.

Nischelle and Kierna, I want you to stay with me.

Because up next we are going to talk about Hollywood's big night almost here. But will it be overshadowed by a big controversy?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:53:39] LEMON: That hash tag should be Oscar's so controversial. The Academy awards are this weekend. And this year's show just might be the most controversial in years in the wake of the outrage over the all-white nominations. But, the diversity problem in Tensel Town (ph) may even be worse than you think.

Back with me now, Nischelle Turner and Kierna Mayo.

So Nischelle, that's -- worse than you think because there was a new study that was release that today and it finds across the board in Hollywood, women and minorities, hugely underrepresented both onscreen and off. It seems like, you know, this backs up what people are saying about this controversy but then goes even further into this.

TURNER: Well, you know, it is not the first time that we have heard these numbers, you know, and seen one of these studies. It seems like they do come out yearly and the numbers are pretty consistent.

You know, I thought this one was interesting because they did use very, very inflammatory words. Things like whitewashed. Saying that the major media companies that are out there today are whitewashed. They also used a phrase like an epidemic of invisibility. And that is when they were talking about the representation of women, minorities and the LGBT community in the industry as a whole.

So you are right. I think this went even one step further. And what it did is also lend to the argument that was real hard factual number that people really cannot dispute when you want to have the debate. So the number are in front of you. The study is in front of you and it does lend to the argument or the debate this being had the conversation is being handled.

[23:55:04] LEMON: Yes. This is the study from USC Annenberg School of communication and journalism. Go ahead, Kierna.

MAYO: Yes. Of the -- I just read this in the times on the way here. Of the 30 film that a black person received a nod for best actor or best actress, only three were directed by a black man. None were directed by a black woman. That does speak to the problem of inclusion. It is bigger than just diversity. It is a matter of who is actually at the table. LEMON: That's what one of the authors of the study said. That we

have more of - not that it is not a diversity problem, but it is more of an inclusion problem than anything.

TURNER: Yes. And I think it is interesting, too because it spoke to, you know, women and minorities. But also the most underrepresented group was the LGBT community. There are two percent of all characters on television are define themselves as LGBT. So that is a huge problem as well.

MAYO: I also think for the Asian-American community, it is pretty dire.

TURNER: Absolutely. Absolutely.

LEMON: Thank you. I'll see you at the end of the week.

TURNER: I can't wait. I cannot wait.

LEMON: And I will see you out there as well, Kierna.

MAYO: He will have his total moment.

LEMON: Make sure you stay with CNN this weekend as Michaela Ferreira and I take you to the red carpet for the biggest night, beginning at 6:00 p.m. eastern. And after the awards, Aisha Sesay and I will wrap it up at midnight with, and the winner is. Make sure you tune in.

That's it for us tonight. Thank you so much for watching. Don't miss CNN's South Carolina Democratic town hall tomorrow at 8:00 followed by the live coverage of the Nevada Republican caucuses beginning at 10:00.

"AC360" starts in just a moment.

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