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Clinton and Trump Lead in U.S. Election Race; Finding Refugee in Canada; Stopping Donald Trump; Ben Carson Does Not See a Political Path Forward; Lessons from the International Space Station; Foreign Policy under America's Next President; Counting on the Latino Vote; Imagine a World. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired March 2, 2016 - 14:00   ET




CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton have all but clinched their nominations now but the

Republican Party is in meltdown. The former Republican governor of New Jersey, Christine Todd Whitman, joins us live on why she'll take Hillary

over Trump.

And we take you to the "Escape Trump" island in Canada that's offering asylum to disaffected America.

We look inside the horse race for where the front-runners stand on the big issues.

Overseas, we ask, who is best for foreign policy.

And at home, we get the view of minority voters on this most controversial of American elections.


AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

The dust has settled the day after Super Tuesday. It looks like it will be Hillary Clinton versus Donald Trump on the main road to the White House.

Trump's insurgent campaign won him seven states with his closest rivals managing one and three respectively. While Hillary Clinton also won seven

states, now pulling well ahead of Bernie Sanders with strong minority support.


CLINTON: It's clear tonight that the stakes in this election have never been higher and the rhetoric we're hearing on the other side has never been


TRUMP: I'm a unifier. I know people are going to find that a little bit hard to believe. But believe me, I am a unifier. Once we get all of this

finished, I'm going to go after one person, that's Hillary Clinton, on the assumption she's allowed to run, which is a big assumption.


AMANPOUR: But if the dust has settled on the voting, a firestorm is raging inside the Republican establishment, who fear that Trump's unstoppable

campaign is costing them the White House.

We'll be talking about all of that in just a moment with the former New Jersey governor, Republican Christine Todd Whitman. She's prepared to

cross party lines, as we said, to possibly vote Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump.

But first, this seismic shift in U.S. politics is having a dramatic reaction in America. Google for instance, says, that as Super Tuesday

results were coming in, searches for, quote, "How can I move to Canada?" was surging, indeed a spike of 350,000 percent.

"Make America migrate," trumpets today's New York "Daily News," playing on Trump's campaign slogan. Now this gallows humor masks a serious reality.

And they couldn't be more serious than in Cape Breton, Canada, which just today has received 825,000 clicks on the website they've put up, offering

shelter to Americans considering fleeing a Trump presidency.

And so we sent our Paula Newton there to track the Trump effect on that small hamlet in Nova Scotia.


PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Perched high on the northeastern edge of the continent, the peace and serenity of Cape Breton

Island in Canada is a long way from the bold and brash American vision Donald Trump is peddling.

That got one guy with one idea and a website asking his U.S. neighbors, could this place be your refuge from a Trump presidency?

With one click, hundreds of thousands of Americans are wondering, too.

NEWTON: No, really. We're not kidding. This is no joke. So we've come here to this wind-swept island to figure out why this pitch is enticing so

many in ways no one could have imagined.

NEWTON (voice-over): Rob Calabrese is the guy, a local radio deejay with the iftrumpwins website. He spent $28 and less than half an hour creating


ROB CALABRESE, CBIFTRUMPWINS.COM: As many people have told me, I'm just some bozo up in Canada on an island that no one has ever heard of. What I

think of him is irrelevant. The fact is, he makes a lot of people very nervous about the future of the country.

That's all. I'm just saying now is the time to plant the seed, get your affairs in order; that way, the day after the election, you have got

everything all settled and you can just come on up then.

NEWTON (voice-over): A little more than two weeks and 800,000 clicks later, Americans want to know more.

CALABRESE: All of a sudden the joke is over and this is serious. We have a serious problem. People are showing a serious interest in moving here.

NEWTON (voice-over): That problem is a familiar one. It may be pretty but this island is economically depressed and in need of new blood.

At Smitty's Pancake House --


NEWTON (voice-over): Kate Brettner's (ph) told us the website is pure genius.



NEWTON: Rob's your hero?

BRETTNER (PH): He really is, yes. He really is. I know it started out in fun but I think he said what we were all thinking.

NEWTON: How do you feel about getting Trump refugees here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't mind. We'll take any refugees.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need people.

NEWTON: How welcoming are you guys to Americans, though?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We love American.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The more the merrier.


NEWTON (voice-over): No fence but you can't just walk into Canada and live here. Damian Barry (ph) is an immigration lawyer and an Irish immigrant.

NEWTON: Would you say that Canada, though, is a tough country to emigrate to?

DAMIAN BARRY (PH), IMMIGRATION LAWYER: It is, in a way. I guess there's a lot of red tape to get through.

NEWTON (voice-over): Even so, he says he's getting dozens of serious inquiries form Americans looking to live north.

Wayne Miller is a man who emigrated in the opposite direction for a time. He's back home now, making it as an entrepreneur. He believes some

Americans will take up the Canadian offer.


NEWTON: Really?


NEWTON: I thought it was a joke.

MILLER: No. I don't think Americans joke. They're pretty -- when they set their mind to something, they make it happen.

NEWTON (voice-over): Valerie Sampson (ph) has already seen some evidence of that, more Americans calling and emailing about Cape Breton's stunning

and, yes, affordable homes.

VALERIE SAMPSON (PH), CAPE BRETON RESIDENT: Anybody would come to me and say I don't see anything I like on the market, I could go knock on a door

and find a piece of waterfront for anybody. Give me six hours.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is what's called Sunrise Drive.

NEWTON (voice-over): Mary Tolle (ph) takes us for a ride along that waterfront. As a tourism official here, she says American interests surged

since the website went live.

MARY TOLLE (PH), TOURISM OFFICIAL: We have a fantastic receptionist that would normally handle two inquiries a day. We had five people dedicated

full-time --


TOLLE (PH): -- to manage the inquiries.

CALABRESE: Cape Breton's hit music station, 101.9 --

NEWTON (voice-over): Back at the radio station, Rob expects more Americans to come calling as Trump builds momentum in the primaries.

NEWTON: Do you think there's going to be a Donald Trump bump in the economy this summer?

CALABRESE: There may be a Trump bump. And thank you for coining that phrase.

NEWTON (voice-over): That might be true in summer but this place doesn't actually look like paradise right now.

NEWTON: What do you want to tell them about when it's not so good?

CALABRESE: Well, this is not the Caribbean. It's not an island in the Caribbean. So we don't -- we have a winter here.

NEWTON (voice-over): In the meantime, remember, this island may not get a vote but now it certainly has a stake in the U.S. presidential race --

Paula Newton, CNN, Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia.


AMANPOUR: And, yes, truth so often conveyed in jest.

But where does the Trump phenomenon leave the Republican Party and not just the party but a great country like America, as observers here are asking?

Joining me now from Miami is Christine Todd Whitman, the former Republican governor of New Jersey.


AMANPOUR: Governor, welcome to the program. That was a little --


AMANPOUR: -- jest but a lot serious.

How bleak does the Republican landscape look from where you are sitting?

WHITMAN: Well, see, I still see it as opportunity. Everybody points to the fact that Trump won a number of states yesterday, it's six state, seven

states. But that's -- they're only proportional delegates. He still only has about 280 delegates and you need over 1,200 in order to secure the


So there's a great possibility that there'll be enough other delegates left out there that he can't win in a first ballot, which means the convention

becomes wide open and we could get a kind of ticket that could actually help the country and govern, once it is in place. And that's why I've been

supporting John Kasich.

AMANPOUR: So just explain for overseas viewers, because most people -- you are one of the few -- who seems to be publicly holding out the likelihood

or the possibility that this may not be an inevitability.

How would that work?

WHITMAN: Well, what happens is, if we go through these primaries, up until now, delegates would -- people are -- people are voting for delegates. But

it is -- you get a proportion you have to get in -- I think almost every state -- at least 20 percent of the vote and then they allocate the number

of delegates you get based on that and your next closest rival.

And so while Trump may win some of these states, he doesn't get all the delegates. He only gets some of them. Now we're going to move into a

series of primaries where you will get all the delegates and they're going to be big states.

When you talk about Ohio, Florida, those are going to have quite a few delegates and that's going to make it much harder to stop him.

But if you don't get -- if you don't have -- it's 1,280, I believe. I'm not entirely sure of the number of delegates that you have to have to get

the Republican nomination.

But if you don't have that going in on the first ballot, then it goes to a second ballot and then a number of those delegates who were initially

pledged to a certain candidate are free to change their minds. And that's where the dealmaking comes in. That's where --


WHITMAN: -- you can see some change and you could get a different set of candidates out of it.

AMANPOUR: I understand why you may be saying this because people in the Republican establishment are very, very worried. You have Senator Lindsey

Graham, saying that, you know, there's a Sunni-Shia war happening within the Republican Party.

You have a former presidential candidate on your side, Meg Whitman, saying that Mr. Trump is not fit to be President of the United States. And you

have very senior public intellectuals of the Republican Party, like Bob Kagan, who has renounced his Republican membership, says he'll vote for

Hillary Clinton for the sake of the country.

And actually blames the Republican Party for creating its own Frankenstein monster.

What do you say to that?

WHITMAN: Well, I think the party has to look at itself. First of all, the American people are frustrated, they angry, they are furious because

Congress has been so dysfunctional over the last few years and this administration has not provided the type of leadership that many people

have wanted to see. They don't think we're in a better place today. They don't believe we're safer.

The economy is not in better shape when you have to work two jobs in order to stay in the same place. So they want change and they are lashing out

and that's why they are looking to a Bernie Sanders or to a Donald Trump.

But what we have to do is peel back the curtain on Donald Trump. He's not what he says he is. He's engaging in the kind of bullying and using

rhetoric that I find is enormously divisive and very scary and can unleash passions that you just can't dial back.

So while I don't believe he would win a general election, he could. But even in the process of running for this office, he's doing damage, I

believe, to America; far beyond the Republican Party, my party, he's doing damage to the country.

AMANPOUR: Let me just say that we're hearing from "The Washington Post" that Ben Carson is considering dropping out, hasn't yet formally said he

would, but says he doesn't really see a road right now for him to the White House. So that goes to perhaps a little bit about what you were saying of

all the candidates still staying in.

But I want to you drill down a little more because we've been trying to parse this anger. You've seen reports today that say, actually, it's

really the Republican primary voters who seem to be angry but angry because the Republican Party has told them to be angry for the last, you know,

seven, 10 and 20 years, angry at government, angry at just about anything you can imagine.

And so, yes, the chickens are coming home to roost.

WHITMAN: Yes, to a certain degree, that's absolutely true. We have put far too much emphasis on anger. But both sides of the aisle, Democrats as

well as Republicans, have gotten increasingly partisan. They don't look at issues now in the Congress through how do we solve a problem through the

policy prism.

They look at it through the partisan political prism. And every vote is that we're turning into more of a parliamentary system where every vote is

a party line vote. That's never been our history and that's not the way our democracy is set up to function.

And when you can't have compromise, when you can't have consensus or even an effort to try consensus and move toward consensus, it makes it

impossible to govern.

And that's when the American people say, enough already. We've got to change this. This isn't working for us. And you all there, stop being so

tone deaf. I mean, Congress' approval rating has been lower than, dare I say it, a colonoscopy in some cases.

And that's just not a good place to be.

AMANPOUR: Well, yes, indeed.

Can I just ask you because I stated it as fact.

Can I confirm that if Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are the candidates, you will not vote for Donald Trump, you would vote for Hillary Clinton?

Or would you sit it out?

WHITMAN: I would never sit it out and I would not vote for Donald Trump. I could write in a candidate. That's still my privilege. It depends on

how the campaign progresses.

But I have to tell you, if I thought it was at all close, if I thought it really -- that Donald Trump might win and Hillary Clinton is the candidate,

not indicted and nothing more terrible has come up, I would vote for her.

AMANPOUR: And it is really quite hard to figure this out from overseas. We showed you that report from Canada. But beyond Canada, all over Europe,

the Middle East, everywhere I go, people are asking me, really?

Is this really serious?

Can this really happen?

WHITMAN: I know.

AMANPOUR: It's having a really negative effect. For instance, the president, the former president of Mexico, says Donald Trump's rhetoric is

creating anti-American feeling around the world, which will not be in America's national security or other interests.

WHITMAN: I - that's what scares me about this whole process right now and the rhetoric that he's using and the people who are trying to find a way to

get behind him because they want to win.

To me, governing is more important at the end of the day than winning. Yes, I want to win.

Do I think that this administration, the Obama administration, has been great for the country?

No, I do not.

Do I want to see four more years of it?

I certainly would rather not but I'd rather see that than to have somebody like Donald Trump, who clearly does not have an understanding of

international relations, doesn't figure out that he can't --


WHITMAN: -- can't bully everybody into falling into line with him. He can't fire Congress, he can't fire the rest of the world, he can't fire the

Supreme Court or the federal government bureaucrats. It's just not going to work that way.

And I think it would be a disaster and we are a superpower. We've got to start acting like one and we need a leader who can bring people together to

get something done. And Donald Trump is not the one.

AMANPOUR: Certainly your successor, or one of your successors once removed, Governor Christie, thinks he's the one. He's standing behind him,

he's endorsed him, he's the only major establishment politician who has done so.

He was there at Mar-a-lago under chandeliers as Donald Trump gave his acceptance speech last night.

So what do you think of that?

And why did Republican leaders not stand up sooner if you feel so threatened by this candidacy?

WHITMAN: Well, I've been talking about it for a while but I think a lot of people just didn't take it seriously. And I must say, at the beginning, I

had -- didn't think he would last this long.

Donald Trump has a monumental ego and I thought it was an ego trip with nothing to lose because if he didn't get too far in his primaries, he could

go back to his reality TV show.

And sometimes it's hard to tell the difference right now between a reality TV show and what we're seeing in the primary with all the language that's

going on.

But I think people just didn't take him seriously enough to get behind another candidate who was credible, who we could present to the American

people as someone who could make government work and make it work for them.

And that's what needs to happen. But now we're at a point where you can't just have a no-Donald. There has to be a positive alternative. And I

think we have it. I think we have that potential. I'd love to see a Kasich-Rubio ticket. You put Ohio and Florida in play for the general

election, two critical states.

If you want to win the country with one person who has had a lot of experience in both the House and the Congress and as an executive running a

state and another one who is the bright, young face of the party but hasn't had the experience to be president.

AMANPOUR: You know, we talk about the politics.

But what about the human values?

Again, from overseas, particularly obviously from Mexico and other such places, former presidents are really concerned, saying that, quote, Donald

Trump, quote, exalting white supremacy and, as you know, the former head of the Klan, David Duke, has said that not to vote for Donald Trump.

His quote, treason to your heritage and Trump himself failed to out-and-out rebuke David Duke in this interview with CNN. And I want to get your

reaction to it.


DONALD TRUMP, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, I know nothing about David Duke. I know nothing about white supremacists. And so you're

asking me a question that I'm supposed to be talking about people that I know nothing about.


AMANPOUR: So there you have that evasion --


WHITMAN: -- not true. He's on record -- he's on record as having said he knew about Donald (sic) Duke and he didn't -- he didn't early on. He

rejected Donald (sic) Duke.

Now all of a sudden he doesn't know him?

I mean, it's -- this man is all over the place and you can't trust what he says. He hasn't done what he has said in business. He is not a great --

if you want somebody with business experience, do you really want someone that's taken companies through bankruptcy four times and cost people a lot

of jobs?

He says he's going to -- wants to bring jobs back to America and yet he can't seem to find any Americans who are worthy of working at Mar-a-lago

and actually have to pay a fine for hiring illegal immigrants. Got to pull this back.

But to your point, Christiane, it's very damaging to the United States overall to have someone who is poisoning the atmosphere by dismissing a

whole group of people because of their ethnic background.

When you say all the Mexicans are coming in are rapists or criminals, what do you expect people to do when they see someone who looks Hispanic coming

down the street of their town?

They say, Wow, I know what this person is about. Some ugly things can happen when you start unleashing those kinds of passion and I think we need

to be very careful.

And this country needs to be a world leader and this is not the way you lead in the world and this is not the kind of United States I believe that

we want to present to the rest of the world.

AMANPOUR: I don't know whether you know that one of the -- I mean, if you want to use the term leader, one of the so-called figures overseas who has

endorsed Donald Trump is Jean-Marie Le Pen, who's the former leader of the far right, extreme right-wing National Front party in France.

But let me ask you, because you raised Hispanics. Now "The New York Times" has leaked an off-the-record conversation they had with Donald Trump, in

which they claim he said that his immigration views are more flexible than he has made them seem throughout his presidential campaign.

Does that bring you any comfort?

WHITMAN: No. And it doesn't give me any comfort about "The New York Times," either, to leak what was a confidential, off-the-record meeting.

But I just don't believe it. I don't know where he is and actions --


WHITMAN: -- speak louder than words. And if, in fact, his actions have been to bring people in from Poland to work at his place in Florida because

he can't find an acceptable American, if his actions say I hire illegal immigrants and now I have to pay a fine, if his actions say I have put

businesses such as Trump Airlines -- he had a liquor brand for a while, all that have gone under that no longer exist, those are the -- that's how you

measure the person.

What have they actually done?

And his record is not great. And it -- he didn't -- when you talk about David Duke, I also never heard him formally or loudly object to a super PAC

that was running robocalls, those calls that they make to people before an election, to kind of diss somebody and they were saying they were pro-

Donald Trump and they ended up by saying don't vote for a Cuban.

I mean, that's just not what this country is about. We were founded by immigrants. We are a country of immigrants. And to do this is just


AMANPOUR: Governor Todd Whitman, thank you for joining us today. Thank you very much indeed.

WHITMAN: My pleasure.


AMANPOUR: And later, the road to the White House goes through the Hispanic vote. Hillary has it.

Does the Donald or any of his GOP rivals? Broadcaster Maria Elena Salinas dubbed the voice of Hispanic America, joins me live later to talk about


But up next, we get the latest from Washington and perhaps one of the candidates dropping out of the Republican race, after this.




AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. And as we just reported in news just in to CNN, Republican candidate Ben Carson says he doesn't really see

a political path forward in this campaign and he won't attend Tuesday's debate. He's not planning to drop out just yet, he says.

Now on the Democratic side, the race is a little bit more conventional; feeling the Bern and under pressure early on, Hillary Clinton had a Super

Tuesday night, winning seven states, which pads her delegate lead. But Sanders is still in and so are the other Republican candidates.

We're going straight to David Chalian, CNN's political editor, live from Washington.

David, welcome to the program.

How significant is the Ben Carson news?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, I think it's pretty significant now as the race continues to sort of have a winnowed field and

in that way it is significant.

Just alone, him saying although he hasn't formally exited the race yet, obviously his statement is everything but that. He's not attending

Thursday's debate in Detroit; that's a big deal. And he said that he's going to have much more to say about this on Friday in a speech but that he

sees no path forward and is basically thanking his supporters.

So he's clearly going to bow out of this race and did all but that in this statement.

And, Christiane, listen, he still had a little chunk of support but every little bit matters. Now where that support goes is critical. You will see

most likely Donald Trump and Ted Cruz battle over that 5-6 percent support that Ben Carson still had as they continue their progress forward.

But now that the debate stage is down to four -- and remember, a lot of people thought, when folks would drop out, Donald Trump would somehow be

harmed by that. That has not been the case so far. I don't anticipate that's the case now. I think he'll get some of Dr. Carson's support.

AMANPOUR: Well, to that point, we just had on Governor Christine Todd --


AMANPOUR: -- Whitman, the former Republican governor of New Jersey, who expresses hope that, even at this stage, the race can go all the way to the

convention and in a second or whatever ballot there can be a different ticket. She points out that all the delegates are still by no means

distributed and that Donald Trump doesn't have an unstoppable number of them.

What do you make of that analysis?

CHALIAN: I think it's wishful thinking in many ways from folks who don't want to see Donald Trump as the nominee. Yes, you can come up with

scenarios such as Donald Trump -- if Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz stay in this and continue to amass a certain share of the delegates that somehow Donald

Trump doesn't get the magic number of 1,237.

But that is not a path to Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz actually becoming the delegate winner. That is just a path to preventing Donald Trump from

winning this thing before getting to Cleveland.

Well, that's a dangerous brew right there and if you were to go into Cleveland and you go into a contested convention, if Donald Trump is the

clear leader and front-runner through all of these contests and somehow the party establishment in some back room sort of up-ends that in some way in

successive ballots, I think you'll just have a completely fractured Republican Party.

We're already seeing signs of that. So I think that is somewhat wishful thinking. He does have a significant delegate lead. It is unlikely, if he

keeps winning races, Christiane, at the pace and at the level of support that he's winning them, it's very unlikely for any other candidate to be

able to overtake his delegate lead at this point.

I --


AMANPOUR: And what about on the other side, David?

What about on the other side?

Is it unlikely that anybody can now dent Hillary Clinton's momentum?

And it really is sort of separating her out from Bernie Sanders now, right?

CHALIAN: Yes. I would say she's even in a stronger position, mostly because her party is going to be -- if you look at the exit polls, we asked

Democrats, they feel whether Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton is the nominee, they are overwhelmingly satisfied with either one.

That's not the case with Donald Trump. So Hillary Clinton's job -- it's sort of unifying her party will be much easier and, yes, she has what may

be an unstoppable delegate lead. She has a bigger lead among the pledged delegates from the results of the primaries and caucuses thus far against

Sanders than Barack Obama had a lead against her after Super Tuesday in 2008.

And you'll remember how that race ended up. So she's got an unbelievably significant lead. Bernie Sanders' challenge is huge right now.

AMANPOUR: Really fascinating. David Chalian, thank you very much.

CHALIAN: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: We obviously -- even from this distance, glued to this race. Thanks, David.

CHALIAN: Thanks, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: And indeed, a bit of distance from this election can't be a bad thing.

Next, leaving the planet and coming back to Earth with a bump. U.S. astronaut Scott Kelly re-enters our atmosphere after perhaps a blissful

year away in space. That is when we come back.






UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scott Kelly, Scott Kelly back on Mother Earth after 340 days in space, Dan.

Thumbs up.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Super Tuesday wasn't just super for American politics. It also saw NASA astronaut Scott Kelly back on solid ground

after almost a year aboard the International Space Station.

Kelly's mission is to help NASA better understand what happens to the human body after long periods in space.

But what about the human mind?


AMANPOUR: While in space, Kelly was a refugee from all the madness here on Earth. And I got to speak to Kelly and the cosmonaut with him, Mikhail

Kornienko, as they hurtled around the Earth at 17,000 mph.

I asked them whether what's happening down here felt a little bit alien to them. They told me politicians and decision makers on Earth could learn a

lesson or two from life in space.


SCOTT KELLY, U.S. ASTRONAUT: Well, Christiane, so clearly it's something where we're obviously aware of. I mean, we follow the news. It's not

something we generally discuss between each other, although sometimes we do.

What's most important to Misha and me and our Russian colleagues and them with us is that we have to rely on each other literally for our lives.

And not only are we great friends but we're completely reliant on each other. If there's an emergency up here, we have to take care of one

another. And that's, for us, the most important thing.

And we understand that there can be conflicts at times between nations.

And I think one of the great things about this space station if we have demonstrated that two cultures that are somewhat different and then

somewhat -- sometimes can be at odds with one another over certain things have demonstrated that they can work together in a very cooperative way.

It's something very, very difficult for a long period of time.

AMANPOUR: And, Mikhail, your view?

MIKHAIL KORNIENKO, RUSSIAN COSMONAUT (through translator): I can only join in and say that the international station is free of any politics. We are

very polite, always very considerate of each other in such discussions.

Furthermore, I would say that our work here and our cooperation onboard the ISS is a great example for all politicians because if they spent at least

one month on board together, it would probably have resolved most of their problems and discussions on the ground.


AMANPOUR: Now Scott Kelly's not the only one coming back to a different America. New Jersey Senator Cory Booker said it's a shock to the system,

damaging America's image overseas.


SEN. CORY BOOKER (D), N.J.: What we're hearing right now in this presidential campaign, and I -- in January, I was overseas. It is

embarrassing. It is disgusting. It is unacceptable.

And so we need to match that darkness with light. We need to match that little spiteful words with loving words and we need to start really talking

about what we stand for as a country.


AMANPOUR: And after a break, we focus on the next president and the nation's future foreign policy. That's next.





AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

The latest news on the race for the White House this hour is that the Republican candidate Ben Carson says that he sees no political path forward

for himself. He isn't formally dropping out of the race but he says he won't be attending Thursday's Republican debate. That makes the 2016 race

for president even clearer.

Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump have managed strong primary and caucus wins on Super Tuesday, each winning seven states. The chance that they

will be their parties' nominees now looks all but assured.



CLINTON: I believe what we need in America today is more love and kindness.

TRUMP: I know it was a very tough night for Marco Rubio. He had a tough night. But he worked hard. He spent a lot of money. He is a lightweight,

as I've said many times before.

CLINTON: The rhetoric we are hearing on the other side has never been lower.

TRUMP: I always liked Marco until about a week ago when he decided to go hostile.

He decided to become Don Rickles, OK? But Don Rickles has a lot more talent.

CLINTON: Instead of building walls, we're going to break down barriers.

TRUMP: The loser of the night was Marco Rubio. And it's true. He didn't win anything. He hasn't won.

CLINTON: Trying to divide America between us and them is wrong.

TRUMP: We're going to make America great again, folks. We're going to make it great again.

CLINTON: America never stopped being great. We have to make America whole.

TRUMP: She wants to make America whole again and I'm trying to figure out what is that all about.

CLINTON: Whether we like it or not, we are all in this together, my friends.

TRUMP: I don't think Marco is going to be able to beat her. I don't think -- in all fairness, I think Ted's going to have a very hard time. But Ted

at least has a shot because he's at least won a little bit.

CLINTON: We all need to work together.

TRUMP: Once we get all of this finished, I'm going to go after one person. That's Hillary Clinton.


AMANPOUR: Now what all of this means for America's foreign policy, however, is much more unclear. Barack Obama's presidency has been defined

by political engagement with countries like Iran and Cuba, coupled with disengagement and disinclination to intervene, to end wars like Syria.

So how would a Clinton presidency differ?

What about a President Trump's foreign policy agenda?

Few people are better placed to say than my next guest. From Afghanistan to Iraq and Syria, David Kilcullen was a military strategist for the United

States. Now he's written about his wartime experience in "Blood Year: Islamic State and the Failures of the War on Terror."

And Francois Heisbourg, chairman of the International Institute for Strategic Studies here in London.


AMANPOUR: Gentlemen, welcome to the program. Now almost none of the candidates who are still in the running have any foreign policy experience.

Perhaps just Hillary Clinton, but none of the GOP.

Who do you think, from your vantage point, the world would be most comfortable with as the next President of the United States and the most


First you, Francois.

FRANCOIS HEISBOURG, INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR STRATEGIC STUDIES: In terms of comfort, clearly Hillary Clinton, because she's a known quantity.

But that doesn't say anything about the substantial expectations of the world. Simply to your question, the answer is clear: comfort zone is


AMANPOUR: And what about you, David?

What do you think?

DAVID KILCULLEN, MILITARY STRATEGIST AND AUTHOR: The current Republican front-runner, of course, is Donald Trump and he's had some very interesting

things to say about Vladimir Putin.

And I think it's perhaps not beyond the realms of possibility that the Russians may be more comfortable with Trump than with Hillary because they

actually blame her for a lot of what happened around Libya.

AMANPOUR: And you say that whoever is the next President of the United States will deal with a substantially more dangerous and destabilized world

than we have even now.


AMANPOUR: In what way?

KILCULLEN: What's happening in Europe with the migrant crisis is going to continue. The E.U. a couple of weeks ago estimated another 3 million

refugees into Europe in the next two years.

We've got a very, very destabilized Middle Eastern situation. We've got probably a scenario in which we're going to have sustained low global oil

prices --


KILCULLEN: -- which is going to affect the same countries that are currently facing ISIS.

And we now have not one but two global jihadist terrorist organizations that are posing a greater threat in terms of terrorism than we've seen at

any time since 9/11.

AMANPOUR: And, Francois, from your perspective, also a collective failure of the West to actually remedy the Syria war.

You have written and the former foreign minister of France, Laurent Fabius, has been very critical about, for instance, about the so-called 2013 red-

line decision by President Obama, pulling back from that and calling it a world-changing event.

HEISBOURG: Whoever gets elected in November is going to be tested fairly quickly and in circumstances which he or she would not necessarily have

chosen; will be tested by Vladimir Putin, will be tested by the Israelis, will be tested by the Iranians, will be tested by the Chinese because they

will need to know whether what happened in 2013, when Obama disregarded his red line, whether that was an Obama problem or whether that was an America


AMANPOUR: So you're saying it damaged American credibility?

HEISBOURG: It certainly damaged Obama's credibility. And the question now is whether this is an American problem -- and the world will want to find

that out. It's going to be very uncomfortable for the new president because that test will come sooner and maybe stronger than it would

otherwise have been.

AMANPOUR: I want to play this because Donald Trump believes that he is the ultimate dealmaker and he can be effective, even with Vladimir Putin.

Listen to what he says.


TRUMP: I would talk to him, I would get along with him. I believe -- and I may be wrong, in which case I'd probably have to take a different path --

but I would get along with a lot of the world leaders that this country is not getting along with.


AMANPOUR: What do you think?

Because obviously Vladimir Putin has expansionist dreams.

And Donald Trump seems -- what?

HEISBOURG: Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump are authoritarian, tough personalities. They resemble each other.

But it isn't because they resemble each other that they are going to get along. Think of Mr. Erdogan, the head of Turkey, who used to be President

Putin's great friend but they are on the verge of war.

Until August 2013, Syria could have been resolved by the conjunction of the moderate rebellion and the West. And after August 2013, it became, in

effect, a game in which Russia decides what the pace is and what the outcome may become.

This is a major geopolitical, geostrategic own goal (ph) which Obama committed on that particular day in August 2013.

KILCULLEN: And remember that the -- that it was Sergey Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, who resolved the impasse of (INAUDIBLE) red line. And so

in one way you can say the Russians invaded in September 2015 into Syria. In another way you can say we invited them into the problem in August of


AMANPOUR: But let me move on because a lot of the candidates are talking about isolationism. I mean, that's the way it's being framed. Let's pull

back from any kind of American engagement.

You know, Bernie Sanders, of course, believes that. That's his standard. Donald Trump wants to pull out of trade deals, wants to, you know, stop

America from paying for and helping its allies in the Far East, Japan and South Korea. Wants to do a whole number of things.

Is pulling up the draw bridge the answer to America's woes?

KILCULLEN: I would go even one step further than that. There's no drawbridge.


When George Bush was elected, there was a total of 30,000 cell phones for all of Nigeria. There was no cell phone system in Syria. This is before

the expansion of the Internet and satellite TV and cable news into the developing world. That's happened to a huge degree since 2001.

So that now somebody like Anwar al-al-Awlaki can sit in Yemen and radicalize a guy in Texas. So the idea that you can somehow disengage from

the world and that one have -- that'll somehow -- it's a fantasy.

HEISBOURG: Drawing up the drawbridge would obviously be stupid. The United States is a superpower. It is a global power. And if it draws up the

drawbridge, it is actually diminishing its status and its power.

That is the long and the short of it and that is what the next American president will either already know when she or he gets elected or will

learn very quickly the day after the inauguration.

AMANPOUR: What about the notion of America in decline?

Donald Trump talks about making America great again and only he can do that.

Is the West -- is America in decline --


AMANPOUR: -- in your view?

HEISBOURG: Short answer is, in relative terms, yes, not because it is doing particularly badly in the case of the U.S. Your growth rate is mediocre

but not catastrophically so.

But it is simply that a lot of other countries are rising and in ways which are essentially good for themselves and I think overall good for the world.

Will the United States cease to be a superpower anytime during the first half of this century?

The answer is, no, unless it forces that upon itself but there is simply no way that anybody can force the United States to cease to be a superpower.

AMANPOUR: You've written about this idea of a decline, that decline is a political notion, that we're not necessarily declining but we have to have

the will to keep pushing forward. Explain that.

KILCULLEN: One of the points that I make in the book is that there is a certain amount of war weariness, not only in the publics in the West but

particularly among political leaders, who have basically decided that the kinds of methods that would be needed to truly engage with the threat of

the Islamic State, particularly in Iraq and Syria, are just off the table because they don't believe the people would sustain them.

And I simply make the point that you can't fight an enemy that is actually planning to fight you without fighting. You have to actually -- you either

cede ground, trim your goals back to something that you think is acceptable or you put the resources into it (INAUDIBLE) got.

For a long time since 9/11, we've fought for this extraordinarily expansive and ambitious foreign policy objectives but have committed a tiny fraction

of the resources that would be needed to achieve this.

AMANPOUR: Gentlemen, thank you very much.

David Kilcullen, Francois Heisbourg, thank you both very much for joining us.

HEISBOURG: Thank you.

KILCULLEN: Thanks for having us.


AMANPOUR: And coming up, he's vowing to make America great again.

But is Trump's triumphal talk losing him the Latino vote?

More on the Hispanic perspective when we come back.




AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

It's one of the most famous cinematic screens in acting history. Peter Finch's rage against the establishment in the 1976 film, "Network."


PETER FINCH, ACTOR, "HOWARD BEALE": I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window, open it

and stick your head out and yell, "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore."


AMANPOUR: And we are told that the insurgent candidacies of Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders are tapping into that feeling amongst voters, similarly

fed up with the political establishment.

But is this altogether true?

While many angry Republicans are rallying behind Trump, Sanders faces a tougher crowd because Democrats, apparently, are much less angry with their


As the well-known Mexican American journalist Jorge Ramos wrote in "The New York Times" today, Latinos are key to winning the White House, which is bad

news for Trump and Sanders.

So let's bring in the equally well-known Maria Elena Salinas, the host of the popular news program on Spanish American TV network Univision. And she

joins me from Miami.


AMANPOUR: Maria Elena, it is great to see you.


AMANPOUR: How angry do you think people are in the Hispanic community or elsewhere?

And how much is that, you know, tapping into and spearing Trump and/or Sanders, in your view?

MARIA ELENA SALINAS, UNIVISION HOST: Likewise, Christiane, it's great to talk to you.

Well, yes, Hispanics are angry. But at this moment they're not necessarily angry at the establishment. They are angry at Donald Trump.

And one of the things that's changing in this election is that Latino voters are more motivated than ever to go out and vote.

According to the last poll that Univision, together with "The Washington Post" held, Trump only has 16 percent of support from Latinos.

Now let's remember that, if it's true that Latinos really do need to support -- that no one can get to the White House without the Latino vote -

- and we have seen that in the last four elections; they supported George W. Bush. They supported by a large margin Barack Obama. Mitt Romney only

got 27 percent of the vote.

So if that stands true in 2016, there's absolutely no way that Donald Trump can win because right now he only has 16 percent -- 16 percent. Eight out

of 10 Hispanic voters have an unfavorable opinion of Trump. And that happens to be the highest negative opinion of any GOP candidate ever in


AMANPOUR: So let's just quickly talk about that because Univision is actually spearheading an activism campaign, a political campaign to get

more Hispanic voters registered.

SALINAS: Right. I mean, I don't know if that's necessarily a political campaign but we have for many years. We think that the political

empowerment of our audience, of Latinos, is something that's very important to helping them advance in the society.

Now let's remember that two-thirds of Latinos in this country are U.S. citizens, either by birth or because they have become citizens; they are

naturalized citizens. So the Latino vote is very, very important and we want to make sure that they go out and register because, as of now, there

are about 28 million Latinos that are -- that can vote, that are of voting age and they are U.S. citizens.

However, not many of them are registered. Now it's expected that 13 million will vote in November. That's about 2 million more than voted in

the last election.

But what we have seen -- and not only Univision but many civic organizations around the country have been trying to get people to register

and vote and they have been very successful. And people are voting in droves. I mean, people are registering to vote in droves.


Because most of them are saying it flat-out, they feel that they are being insulted by Donald Trump and by the very negative campaign. The tone of

the campaign is so negative.

And, therefore, I guess we can say that that is a Trump effect. Now Trump is constantly saying that he's winning the Latino vote and that he's going

to win with Hispanics. Well, he has done well with Hispanic Republicans. But let's remember that only about 15 percent of Latinos are Republicans.

So it's really a fraction of a fraction of Hispanics that are supporting Trump.

AMANPOUR: Well, it's interesting that you clarified that because obviously he said and he told everybody he won the Hispanic vote in Nevada. And a

lot of people took that as gospel truth. So it's interesting to hear you break down those figures.

But let me ask you this. I mean, everybody knows and it's been digested over and over again, the comments he made about Mexicans and rapists and

the fact that he swears he's going to build a wall and get the Mexicans, Mexico to pay for it.

This is what one of the previous, one of the former Mexican presidents just said about that. Just listen.


VICENTE FOX, FORMER PRESIDENT OF MEXICO: I declare, I'm not going to pay for that [ bleep ] wall. He should pay for it. He's got the money.


AMANPOUR: So Vicente Fox there expressing anger and outrage.

But beyond that, Mexicans, I think, feeling very, very upset as well as Latinos about what they call sort of -- certainly one of the Mexican former

presidents has said exalting white supremacy, the sort of division along racial lines.

Is that -- do people -- are people internalizing that in the Latino community?

Are they worried about that?

SALINAS: Yes, because, again, it's interesting; that interview was actually with Univision, with my co-anchor, Jorge Ramos, when President Fox

said that. And it just sort of reflects -- and I'm sure that a lot of people raised eyebrows with the type of language that he used, which is not

typical of a president, even a former president.

But I think he reflected the feeling that a lot of Latinos have. They are angry at Donald Trump. And when he talks about building a wall, there's so

many things that are wrong with that.

Symbolically, you know, you really should be building bridges and not building walls. It's impractical because --


SALINAS: -- who's going to pay for it?

Mexico's not going to pay for it. And it's going to cost anywhere from $10 billion to $25 billion, depending on who you ask.

And also, it's not going to stop drug smuggling. It's not going to stop immigrants from coming to the border or trying to find a way to search for

a better life.

So yes, I think that anger that came from President Vicente Fox is the same language that you feel in that Latino community. And the only way -- the

only thing that they can do, they can't go on television and use that kind of language.

So what can they do?

They can march on the streets, they can protest or they can register to vote and go out and vote. And I'm talking about citizens going out and

voting in the name of undocumented immigrants, who sometimes are their neighbors, their family members, or they themselves might have come under

those circumstances to this country and were able to eventually become citizens.

AMANPOUR: Maria Elena Salinas, thank you so much for joining us on this really important issue. Thanks very much.


AMANPOUR: And when we come back, imagine a world where journalists like us are under fire, not in some war-torn country but on primetime in the United

States. That's next.




AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, just after Hollywood gave Best Picture Oscar to "Spotlight" this week, highlighting the power of journalism to

expose all manner of evil in high places, we imagine the world's most powerful democracy routinely demonizing and abusing journalists.

That is what the Trump campaign has been doing. He's vowing to toughen libel laws now, making it easier to sue journalists. He has mocked

journalists because of disabilities or because of their sex.

And at a recent Trump rally, the Secret Service attacks a "Time" magazine photographer, which, thanks to this amateur video, was caught for



AMANPOUR: Trump routinely gathers the rallies for chants against journalists and he has even joked about killing journalists when talking

about Russia's murdered reporters.


TRUMP: I would never kill them. I would never do that.

Ah, let's see -- no, I wouldn't. I would never kill them.

But I do hate them and some of them are such lying, disgusting people. It's true. It's true.


AMANPOUR: Fear and loathing on the campaign trail indeed.

And that is it for our program tonight. Remember, you can always watch us online at and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thanks for

watching. Goodbye from London.