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Clinton and Sanders Go Head to Head for 691Delegates; Donald Trump Insisting No Violence at His Rallies; Counting Down to Another Super Tuesday. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired March 14, 2016 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: And that's it for us. Thank you for watching. We'll see you again at midnight Easter for another edition of 360. CNN Tonight with Don Lemon starts now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Just hours ago until the vote that could decide everything and listen to the republican rival.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know how many people have been hurt at our rallies? I think like basically none other than I guess, maybe somebody got hit once but there's no violence.
SEN. TED CRUZ, (R-TX) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: One difference between this and a Donald Trump rally is I'm not asking anyone to punch you in the face.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO, (R-FL) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hold up your Bernie Sanders sign. Don't worry. You're not going to get beat up at my rally.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
This is CNN Tonight. And I'm Don Lemon.
The next 24 hours, the next 24 hours could be the last chance for the republican powers and be to stop Donald Trump.
Meanwhile, Hilary Clinton and Bernie Sanders are going head-to-head for the 691 delegates at stake tomorrow and keeping an eye on the GOP front-runner.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I-VT) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This campaign is telling Donald Trump and others that we will not -- we will not accept for one second their bigotry and xenophobia.
HILLARY CLINTON, (D) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We all are committed to building not walls but knocking down barriers that's what we've got to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: There is a heck of a lot going on tonight and I want to get with CNN chief political analyst, Gloria Borger. And as we watch this, we're both going, my goodness, what is going on?
GLORIA BORGER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I know.
LEMON: What is going on here?
BORGER: Well, this race is going to be kind of determined tomorrow in many ways.
LEMON: This is a do or die moment for Donald Trump.
BORGER: Right. Absolutely.
LEMON: Is tomorrow a do or die moment when it comes to Ohio and Florida?
BORGER: Yes. Not only do or die for Donald Trump. Actually, for Donald Trump, it's not do or die because he's going to continue on matter what.
LEMON: Right, right.
BORGER: But it is do or die for Marco Rubio and John Kasich because each of them really has to win their home state. Kasich has said he would get out if he gets smoked in his home state as he puts it, and he does, he'll be out of the race I believe. And Marco Rubio, basically, you know, the same thing unless they both decide they want to stay in just to kind of stick it to Trump.
LEMON: Just to stick it to -- yes.
BORGER: But I doubt that's the case.
LEMON: So, then what is Ted Cruz's plan going forward? Does he have a plan going forward? I mean, is he saying anything about what happens after this?
BORGER: Yes. You know, they are -- they are getting kind of creative over there in the Cruz campaign. They believe that no matter what happens tomorrow -- and they believe they are going to get some delegates tomorrow and I think they are right.
But they believe they are in it for the long haul and that eventually the conservative movement and the elites of the party will have to coalesce around Ted Cruz as the alternative to Donald Trump. They say they are the only ones who beat Donald Trump, they will continue to collect these delegates, they will take it to the convention.
LEMON: But how does the math bear out if Donald Trump does win Ohio and...
BORGER: Well, it's very difficult and it's very narrow. But I tell you one thing about the Cruz campaign, they have run a real campaign, Don. They've got people in Arizona right now. They started organizing in Arizona six months ago. They've got an ad campaign ready to go. They've had a southern strategy. Didn't work so well on Super Tuesday but they have a southern strategy.
So, you know, they believe that they have the wherewithal, the strategy and the candidate to kind of unite the party against Trump. It's very narrow, as I said. It's very difficult. They are not going to get the numbers that Trump has. But they believe at a convention they could beat him.
BORGER: I mean, I honestly don't know. I honestly don't know.
LEMON: You know, I sat here with you guys. You guys know everything. But do you remember when I sat here in the summer...
BORGER: We don't know anything.
LEMON: I know. And I said, the likely nominee on the republican side is...
BORGER: Donald Trump.
LEMON: Donald Trump.
BORGER: You said.
LEMON: That's it.
BORGER: And I still believe that's the case.
BORGER: I really do believe he's the overwhelming favorite. And by the way, if he does win Florida and if he does win Ohio or even if he just wins one of them, he's still the overwhelming favorite.
LEMON: Yes. What about Rubio? I mean, if he loses Florida, you said he's probably -- but does he have to drop out if he loses Florida?
BORGER: Well, if he has the money. I think his money people would probably say, you know what, I don't want to throw any more money into this. So, I think it would be probably pretty much up to the funders in a way unless they wanted to carry this on to the convention for some reason to keep their delegates. But, you know, at some point this becomes a convention fight.
BORGER: And then there's all kinds of strategy that goes on about do you want to keep your -- do you want to keep your delegates? Do you want to release your delegates?
LEMON: Oh, boy.
BORGER: Do you want to suspend your campaign , I mean, there's -- you know, there's all kinds of scenarios that can play out. But I think you'd have to say overwhelmingly, that if Rubio does not win Florida tomorrow, he's likely out of the race.
[22:05:05] LEMON: Yes. The other republican candidates are all going, hey, what about us? What about us? You know, give us some attention. But I feel that democrats are doing the same thing because the republican side is so raucous they are getting so much attention. So, let's talk about the dems right now.
LEMON: Bernie Sanders pulled off its...
BORGER: Only two of them.
LEMON: Yes. Only two of them. Bernie Sanders pulled off an upset in Michigan.
BORGER: That's right.
LEMON: Is there an upset insight for tomorrow?
BORGER: Well, they would like to say that there's an up state in Missouri -- an upset in Missouri and that they might be able to work that out. And they, you know, we haven't polled Missouri a lot so it's one of those states we can't really tell what's going on, not that the polling has been accurate this time.
And they also believe that given their trade message -- and don't forget, the democrat is side is different from the republican side because it's not winner-take-all in those big states.
LEMON: Right. Plus, the super delegates.
BORGER: Right. But, you know, in a state like Ohio, which on the republican side is winner-take-all, the democratic side not, they believe they can collect a lot of delegates in Ohio because their trade message, their populous message is so strong.
I don't think they have as much hope in Illinois, although they are very cleverly running against Hillary Clinton by linking her to the unpopular mayor, Rahm Emanuel, in Chicago, trying to cut into that African-American vote. But I do believe if you had to sort of pick one state that could surprise us tomorrow night on the democrat side, it might be Missouri or Missouri, however you say it, Missouri.
LEMON: Missouri. As someone who live in St. Louis, Missouri. Yes.
LEMON: Yes. All right.
BORGER: Sorry about that.
LEMON: Anyway, I see the potato, potato. Missouri and Missouri. Gloria, I want you to stick around because I want to bring Hugh Hewitt now.
LEMON: He is a host of the Hugh Hewitt radio show. Hello to you. Happy Monday to you, Hugh before the Super Tuesday.
HUGH HEWITT, RADIO HUGH HEWITT SHOW HOST: Good evening, Don. Good evening, Gloria. How are you?
LEMON: Yes. Whatever round it is, Super Tuesday part two, three. It's that time again, Hugh. Give me your predictions for tomorrow night, Super Tuesday three.
HEWITT: Sure. John Kasich is going to win Ohio and fairly handedly because Marco Rubio directed all of his voters to vote for him and Mitt Romney is campaigning with him today. And the governor has win 86 out of 88 counties.
Donald Trump, I will note, was in Vienna, Ohio today at the Warren- Youngstown Airport. My hometown is Warren. Roger Ailes and I both, you know, the same high school, so he's in Ailes' country as well.
But nevertheless, John Kasich is going to win Ohio and I think fairly handedly. I think Ted Cruz is going to win Illinois and a big upset. I do think Donald Trump is going to win Florida even though Kasich has all but said that his people ought to support Marco Rubio.
And I think North Carolina will be divided four ways with delegates each way. We're going to an open convention. I'm out there. I've been saying that for every -- we're going to.
BORGER: I know.
HEWITT: But here's what I want to put out there for you guys.
LEMON: So, what's the state of the race? What's the state of the race?
HEWITT: Go watch -- go watch the movie "Snatch" from 2000, 15 years ago. Boris the Blade is Donald Trump. And Brick Top is Hillary Clinton and Mickey is John Kasich and Dennis Farina plays Ted Cruz. Bloody, but in the end he gets a piece of the pie. And so, if you watch "Snatch," it was chaos looking for a diamond. A
great movie, a terrific movie. But chaos reigns. But there will be a winner in Cleveland. And that winner is impossible to say. And I wonder if you two agree with me, if John Kasich wins Ohio -- and I think that's going to happen -- open convention, meaning no one comes with 1,237 delegates is inevitable.
BORGER: I think so, too. Look, we don't know how to cover an open convention...
LEMON: Just figure it out, though, right?
BORGER: ... because we don't know what it would look like right now. You know, the rules were rewritten for Mitt Romney in 2012, so that Ron Paul couldn't take it to the floor and cause a raucous. Now they are going to have to rewrite the rules again.
And the biggest question if I were a Trump supporter that I would have is, who is going to be on that rules committee? Who is going to rewrite those rules. Is it going to be big poobah in the states? How are they going to -- how are they going to work that one out so that you don't disenfranchise millions of republican voters who have supported for Donald Trump?
LEMON: But with that, as you answer that, Hugh, but won't there be an open revolt if there is a clear winner and someone tries to take it away? Go ahead with Gloria's answer but don't you think there would be a...
HEWITT: Well, some people will be unhappy. Let me do it in reverse order. Someone will be unhappy and they'll get over it.
HEWITT: Because beating Hillary -- yesterday, Hillary said they are going to destroy coal miner's jobs, right. So, she is a dreadful candidate. And we are going to beat Hillary and the republicans will come together, they'll get it together. But back to what Gloria said, rule 40 is what Gloria's referring to adopted in 2012. It will be vanished, disappeared, gone, at the start of the convention in 2016.
BORGER: Right. It will be.
HEWITT: And a lot of people who don't want that rule to change will be upset and they'll say, you know, secret deal. It's not a secret deal. The rules committee meets every four years. They adopt the rules that they want to adopt and the party adopts the rules to the moment. That was adopted in 2012 because Mitt Romney didn't want to deal with Ron Paul in 2016.
HEWITT: Mitt Romney, by the way, in Ohio today, and that's a big deal as John Boehner endorsing John Kasich but, more importantly, Urban Meyer, the Ohio State -- the Ohio State University Football coach and Jim Tressel, the last of the Ohio State University Football coach endorsed John Kasich over the weekend.
[22:10:06] Woody Hayes probably did that from above for that makes the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost at Ohio football for John Kasich. And that takes the state right there.
LEMON: All right, Hugh.
BORGER: You know, you say that the Republican Party is going to unite and it's going to be all hunky-dory. I'm not so sure about that.
LEMON: I'm like, you just took the words out of my mouth, hunky-dory. But that's -- we've got a long way to go. I swear, Gloria, I was going to say he's thinking everything is going to be hunky-dory.
LEMON: But you got to listen to Marco Rubio, you got, you know, you got a big feel to cross before we get to the hunky-dory part. This is Marco Rubio today talking about how he got down in the mud on Donald Trump's level and he's, I think he's not, you know, not too happy that he did that. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUBIO: When I did that for three days, every speech I gave, the networks cut in live because they wanted to hear me I would say it again. As soon as I stopped doing it, they stopping covering it live, for the most part. This is who we've become. The presidency is not a reality TV show. It's not the political version of "Survivor."
I know policy debates can get boring. I know that the ones where we call each other names are a lot more exciting. But we're not a third- world country. We're the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Political version of "Survivor," do you guys agree with that?
HEWITT: Oh, it's very close to that. But I would thought of another movie, "Wag the Dog." This is nothing compared to what we've seen in the past. Dustin Hoffman said that.
Look, we get over this. July, thank God. Reince Priebus moved the convention up to July. He got a lot of good things including bringing order out of chaos with the debates. But when he brought the convention up to July, not only did he allow general election campaign season money to come in earlier, he allowed more time for people to get over it.
HEWITT: And as someone pointed out to me over the last week when I was down in Miami with the excellent CNN team preparing for the Miami debate, there is an usually connected group of people here. Trump, Rubio, Cruz, and Kasich. They can talk before Cleveland. They might work it out before Cleveland, but it will be the candidates working out. The magic number is 1237.
LEMON: Yes. Before I let both of you, guys, I just want to put this picture up? Can we put the picture of George W. Bush and Hillary Clinton. This is at Nancy Reagan's funeral. Hugging.
LEMON: It shows you that political rivals can come together. So, let's hope that we're that, Gloria and I are going to use that is hunky-dory and the people in the end...
BORGER: I don't know.
LEMON: ... even enemies can come together with all of this. Thank you. Yes. Gloria is not so sure. Hugh, maybe. Thank you. I appreciate.
HEWITT: I think it is. Thank you, Don. Thank you, Gloria.
BORGER: Thank you.
LEMON: When we come right back, Donald Trump says his rallies are love fests. Bernie Sanders calls him a pathological liar. What's really going on here? We're going to take a closer look.
[22:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Donald Trump insisting today that there's no violence at his rallies. In fact, he calls them love fests. He says any disruptions at his events are the fault of protesters. Is he telling the truth or is he lying as Bernie Sanders said last night in our town hall?
Joining me now is Dr. Michael Welner, a forensic psychiatrist who is supporting Donald Trump, McKay Coppins, BuzzFeed, senior political writer for BuzzFeed news who is author of "The Wilderness Deep Inside the Republican Party's Combative, Contentious, Chaotic Quest to take Back the White House." How he got all those words on one book, I don't know.
And Ryan Lizza, Washington correspondent for The New Yorker. Thank you for the very easy title there, Ryan Lizza to read.
So, all of all, this is what Senator Bernie Sanders said last night during the CNN democratic town hall. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: Donald Trump is a pathological liar.
We have never -- our campaign does not believe and never will encourage anybody to disrupt anything. We have millions of supporters, people do what they do. People have the right to protests. I happen not to believe that people should disrupt anybody's meetings.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Dr. Welner, to you first. The two other men on this panel will tell you that Donald Trump doesn't tell the truth often. Is he a pathological liar, as Bernie Sanders says?
MICHAEL WELNER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: I've got to answer this just from a standpoint of qualification. And a pathological liar is someone who is an individual with very little accomplishment personally, professionally, vocationally because of one's inability to tell the truth ultimately is one's own undoing.
I think it's an absolute fact that Donald Trump has had enormous success in a variety of different pursuits in which he's dependent upon his ability to relate to others. And a pathological liar would have been undone at the first step of the first endeavor in his early 20s.
He has very close relationships with his children who respect him, he has a very close and long-standing relationships with his work associates and rivalries in business and people within the context of negotiating...
LEMON: But that doesn't always mean he tells the truth. So, it's just in the...
WELNER: I'm answering -- no. I'm answering the question.
LEMON: But listen, Dr. Welner -- Dr. Welner, please, stop. Stop right there. Stop right there.
WELNER: A pathological liar is someone who a legacy of pathology.
LEMON: Dr. Welner, if I interrupt you and I'm asking you a question it's for time purposes. We don't have a lot of time. So, if I interrupt, please be respectful. I'm trying to get you to get to the point so that I can let other people on the panel speak. OK? Do you understand that?
WELNER: I'm listening. LEMON: OK. Great. Thank you. Ryan, as a journalist, have you ever
covered a candidate, Trump, not Sanders who gets away with not saying so much?
RYAN LIZZA, THE NEW YORKER CORRESPONDENT: No. I've covered, this is my fifth presidential campaign and I've never covered a candidate who says so many things that are demonstrably false as Donald Trump. And I think that that is a relatively unanimous opinion in the political journalism world.
I don't think, well, two things. One, I want to plug McKay's book, if you want to understand what's going on in the republican politics right now, read McKay's book. It's fantastic. I don't think...
MCKAY COPPINS, BUZZFEED NEWS SENIOR POLITICAL WRITER: The check's in the mail, Ryan. Thanks.
LZIZZA: No, I'm very serious about that. I don't think that Bernie Sanders was making a clinical diagnosis. I think he was using the term pathological liar like any layman uses it, in other words, a description of someone who doesn't -- who frequently says things that are not true. Go to any of the fact-checking web sites, look at the file on Donald Trump. He very frequently says things that prove to be untrue.
[22:20:05] That is just a fact. You know, it's not -- it's not...
WELNER: It's a fact...
LEMON: So, then what term -- what you think there's a better term, Dr. Welner, what is a better term for Donald Trump if you don't believe, as Bernie Sanders says, he's a pathological liar?
WELNER: I think a more -- I think a more honest discussion is that Donald Trump didn't say that Benghazi happened over a video. Donald Trump didn't say, if you like your health care plan, you can keep it. Donald Trump didn't say that we're going to deal with immigration without an executive orders.
I think that to be a politician is to lie and that's from precisely why Donald Trump attracts support from thinking, educated people like myself because we realize that the only industry you can succeed at by lying is at being a politician or a drug dealer.
Otherwise, in business and in other capacities, you couldn't be successful. And so, I don't think that there's anything that can be attributed to Mr. Trump that hasn't been wholly attributed to Hillary Clinton, for example, and that's precisely why Bernie Sanders uses that term.
Everybody knows that Hillary Clinton lies all the time and it's going to hamper her in the general election and Bernie Sanders needs to make an impression with the general electorate that he can attack Trump.
LEMON: So, McKay, a team from Politico...
WELNER: So, he is just politics.
LEMON: Listen to 4.6 hours of Trump speeches and found more than five dozen statements. Is that what you call the fables of Trump?
COPPINS: Yes. That was fascinating. The Politico magazine ran everything he said for a week through their own fact-checking process and found that he said something that was untrue every five minutes, essentially.
That's everything from outright lies to mischaracterizations or exaggerations. I do think though, that there's an important bit of context here and that Donald Trump, you know, now says that the bible is his favorite book. He used to say that his favorite book was a book called "The Power of Positive Thinking," which was by kind of a self- help guru and pastor in the '50s, huge best-seller.
Basically, the core philosophy is don't allow any negative thoughts to enter your mind, always say positive things about yourself, negative things about your opponents. Whatever it envisioned of yourself that you want you should just express it and it will come true. And I think that's a philosophy that is clearly at the right truth of the one he does.
LIZZA: So, like the secret.
LEMON: Yes. Dr. Welner, this is what Trump said today in North Carolina. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: And I'll say this -- this is hard to believe and you'll look it up and maybe it's not even true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So, what type of person says that kind of -- that has that kind of cavalier attitude towards the truth? I'll look it up but maybe it's not even true, I'll say this but maybe it's not even true.
WELNER: I think that anybody who doesn't have an appreciation of Hillary Clinton's legacy with telling lies all the time is just fooling themselves. And just to illustrate this discussion...
LEMON: Dr. Welner, just for the sake of this conversation, Dr. Welner, we're talking about -- we're talking about Donald Trump.
LIZZA: The argument that other people lie has nothing to do with Donald Trump. WELNER: You know, look, because you're select...
LEMON: Yes. Other people -- Dr. Welner, Dr. Welner, please, will you let me in here? Other people lie all the time. I'm sure you've told a lie. But we're not talking about your lies. We're talking about people who are accusing Donald Trump of lies.
So, can we keep it to Donald Trump without going on? Because then other people have to defend other folks here and then we get away from the conversation. So, and according to Donald Trump -- let's stick specifically to Donald Trump here -- how can someone say those things and expect people to believe that the truth is coming out of their mouth?
WELNER: Well, he qualifies it as possibly not true and other elected officials don't even qualify things as possibly not true. I'm sitting with two journalists right now who represent themselves as journalists but who are nakedly advocating against Trump.
At least I'm honest enough to represent that I support Donald Trump. So, I think you have three people have their own positions and we just happen to disagree with each other. Bernie Sanders...
LEMON: You're not arguing with me. I'm just -- I'm trying to facilitate a conversation here. And I'll let the other journalists speak for themselves.
LEMON: But I'm just trying to keep you on track. Because it seems like every question we ask you about Donald Trump, you deflect to some other person saying it's OK that he lies because other people lie or he might lie because other people lie. That's really not an answer.
WELNER: Well, I don't believe I'm doing that. I think that you're setting Donald Trump off as especially different from others and I'm making the point that I don't see anything different about what he is saying other than if he qualify that something may not be true.
COPPINS: He says something untrue every five minutes. Every five minutes that doesn't that make a difference? I agree politicians lie. But every five minutes is a little bit different than I think a lot of the other politicians you've mentioned here.
WELNER: I would tell you that people are being constructive to speeches that every politician -- and they do the same thing.
LIZZA: Doctor, can I just jump in here? Doctor, I take a little bit of offense to you questioning the credentials of myself and McKay as journalists. I wouldn't sit here on national TV and question your credentials as a doctor. I think McKay and I have a pretty good track record and have established ourselves as journalists.
[22:25:05] So, I would just ask you not to question our credentials or our good faith. We're talking here about whether Donald Trump compared to most politicians that McKay and I have covered, more often tells things that are not true more often than other politicians we've covered, and I think that's demonstrably true.
And as the Politico piece that we just mentioned, and as a lot of fact checking web sites have pointed out that does appear to be the case. And every time that Don asks you a question about Donald Trump, you talk about Benghazi or something that some other politician said that is not true which, frankly, is not a very strong argument in Donald Trump's defense.
LEMON: Go ahead, doctor.
WELNER: Well, since we're speaking about respecting each other, let me point out that you just said you're talking about Donald Trump compared to other people and I merely compared Donald Trump to his opponents in this campaign.
Bernie Sanders said that it was a lie that his protesters -- of that supporter of his were part of these organized protests against Donald Trump. And that is quite clearly incorrect. So, are we now demonstrating that he didn't lie to Bernie Sanders? Are you deconstructing Bernie Sanders' speeches? Are you deconstructing Hillary Clinton's speeches for the frequency of lies? All I'm saying is that you're paying a...
LIZZA: Everyone deserves scrutiny. I do agree with you there.
LEMON: Everyone does deserve scrutiny. And every one...
WELNER: And it has no validity if you're not comparing it to the others.
LEMON: Everyone does deserves scrutiny. But at some point, we get around to each specific candidate and this time it's specifically about Donald Trump. Hold your thoughts. We'll be right back and continue this conversation right after this break.
[22:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Back with me now, Dr. Michael Welner, McKay Coppins, and Ryan Lizza. Dr. Welner, we didn't get the chance to discuss this. What about the narcissist part? Is Donald Trump a narcissist?
WELNER: He's an exceptionalist and there is something about American exceptionalism at its core that sees itself as excellent relative to the rest of the world, and he sees himself as excellent relative to other people that he competes with.
And that's exactly why resonates with many people because everything that he's built himself around is being the best at it and succeeding at it and it inspires people. And it inspires people of all ethnicities and it inspires people who come here legally to be part of the American dream.
It is exceptionalism that has an inherent grandness to it. There is something about branding Trump which some people find gosh. But it very closely approximates how we brand America everywhere in the world as the best and the example for others.
LEMON: The question was whether or not he's a narcissist.
WELNER: Well, I think that's embodiment of healthy narcissism, is a belief that you are better, a believe that you can achieve and every single person who goes into politics is a narcissist, as is all of us who put ourselves on television but it's the exceptionalist and a narcissist in business who has the temerity, the boldness to succeed because he dares.
And that is where his narcissism is healthy. And I think that's the most -- the clearest and most vivid example of his narcissism and it is not unhealthy because of the strong relationships that he enjoys and has maintained in the successes along the way.
LEMON: McKay and Ryan, does that -- does any of that explain what we have talked about -- you know, and remarked on his obsession with poll numbers? McKay first.
COPPINS: Right. Yes. No, I mean, I don't know the -- I won't diagnose him. I'll leave that to the good doctor. The fact that Donald Trump's -- a key platform of But I will say that I will say that, you know, the fact that Donald Trump's key, a key component of his platform appears to be talking about his poll numbers talking about winning does suggest that this is much more at least transparently about himself than it is about other things.
Though, I will say that I don't think narcissism is necessarily a trait unique to Donald Trump when it comes to our politicians in this country.
LIZZA: And let me just add, look, I don't know whether Donald Trump is a pathological liar or a narcissist. I don't think any of us should be psychoanalyzing people from afar.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Dr. Welner, but it's unethical for psychiatrists to diagnose people in public. It's unethical for them to diagnose people who are not their patients. I do think any of us should be extremely cautious and modest about delivering verdicts about his state of mind.
But I do know as a journalist, that when I was asked to come on and talk about tonight was whether Donald Trump says things that are untrue more often than most politicians.
COPPINS: Yes. LIZZA: And I can tell you very -- there with a great degree of certainty that that is the case. And I don't think it really matters whether he's a narcissist or whether he's pathological or any of these other fancy psychological terms.
I think what matters for voters about trying to make up their mind about this person is that, he frequently says things that aren't true and that's a problem.
I think he's sort of -- he's sort of figured out a bug in our political journalism systems that we are not equipped to fact check and hold him accountable in real time in a way that gives people the information they need to sort of figure out whether that what he says is accurate or not because he's so good at changing the subject and moving on to something else.
LEMON: Dr. Welner, I'm sure.
LEMON: I'm sure you saw -- you all saw this, but Donald Trump was attacked this weekend by a man in the crowd and he looked quite rattled for a minute and afterwards he said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: This guy has such an easy life. What do I need this for? Right?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, why does he need this, actually? For a long time a lot of people thought that this was, you know, just the way for Donald Trump to enhance his brand and that he didn't really want to be president. Why do you think so, Dr. Welner?
WELNER: Well, those people were wrong. And just, you know, he wants to make America great again. And that's terrific. And there are a lot of people who want to and they wouldn't dare and he's dared and for that he should be appreciated.
[22:35:06] I can tell you one thing, he's not lying about the border. I don't believe that he's lying about the concerns he has about the hatred for America in the Muslim world. About that I just...
LIZZA: So, what do you mean he's not lying about the border? Specifically what does that mean?
WELNER: Just a moment. Just a moment.
LEMON: Let him finish. Let him finish.
WELNER: I don't -- look, I'm not cutting you off. Let me finish. Abdulfattah of Egypt said exactly the same thing. And nobody said he was an Islamaphobe. I don't believe that he's talking -- that he's lying when he talks about that currency manipulation.
I don't believe as a person who is in Pittsburgh and grew up in Pittsburgh that he's lying about the industrialization because I watched the entire city get wiped out when we lost the steel industry. The same thing happened in North Carolina with the furniture industry.
So, I think he's bee being quite candid and quite forth right and quite honest and the reason that the press is not trapping him is not just because he's good at escaping, it's because he's speaking truth. He's speaking truth to power and it's not that he's good at evading. It's that he's good.
LEMON: Go ahead, McKay.
WELNER: He's good. There are people in this world that see the good in him and that is the reason for his support.
LEMON: Go ahead, McKay.
COPPINS: So, I think what Dr. Welner just said and what he just did is actually a really important illustration because I've seen dozens of Trump supporters do the same thing, which is they take something that Trump says which is provably false, right? Something like Islam hates us, which is painting you can say certain Muslims hate us. You can say X, Y, Z. You cannot say a global religion hates us Americans, right? But...
WELNER: That's not what I said. You're misquoting me. No, that's not what I said.
COPPINS: But, doctor, "Islam hates us" is literally...
WELNER: That's not what I said and that's not what he said. You're mischaracterizing what I said just you're characterizing what Trump said.
COPPINS: OK. But what I'm saying is what Dr. Welner and what a lot of Donald Trump supporters do is they take something that is said that's false and they say, well, whatever exactly he said, he gets at an important point which is, and then they go on to talk about what they believe.
WELNER: But that's not what I said. No.
LEMON: Dr. Welner, let him finish.
WELNER: I am copying (ph) exactly what he said.
LEMON: Let him finish, please. Let him finish. Go ahead. COPPINS: Look, and look, there is a reason that Donald Trump is very
popular and he's got a lot of appeal, it's because he is talking about issues that people care about and he's talking about it in a way that other candidates don't. But I don't think that you can excuse the specific, exact actual words that he says. I think that those matter for a presidential candidate on the brink of becoming a major party nominee.
LEMON: All right. End of conversation at least at this point. We'll talk more. Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it.
LIZZA: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: Coming up, Hillary Clinton says Donald Trump is inciting mob violence. Is this campaign spinning -- is this campaign spinning out of control?
[22:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Donald Trump insists his rallies are love fests but clearly Hillary Clinton does not agree. Listen to what she said on MSNBC tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: When you are inciting mob violence, which I what Trump is doing in those clips, there's a lot of memories that people have. You know, they are in the DNA. People remember mob violence that led to lynching. People remember mob violence that led to people being shot, being, you know, grabbed, being mistreated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Joining me now is Jeffrey Toobin, author of "The Run of His Life. The People v. O.J. Simpson." That's the book. I'm obsessed with the mini-series, by the way. That's going to be a whole conversation for us. And then Kayleigh McEnany is conservative columnist for Above the Law. Good to have both of you here.
So, I want you to update me. And you heard what Hillary Clinton had to say.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Right.
LEMON: And she's talking about the sheriff in North Carolina with the sucker punched, the protestor sucker punched the guy, they are taking, they are doing an investigation there. He said, "The potential of whether there was conduct on the part of Mr. Trump or the Trump campaign which rose to the level of inciting a riot," what did he find out? He announced this conclusion.
TOOBIN: He said no. No prosecution will go forward. And I think that was clearly the correct result. If you look at the law, the law says there has to be an actual riot. And as unpleasant as that incident was, I don't think anyone could call it a riot. So, I think, you know, fair is fair. This was the appropriate
resolution of this case. But if you look at the trajectory that we're on with these -- with these rallies, there is certainly the potential for more violence and this is something that law enforcement is going to continue to look very closely.
LEMON: But he's still looking into the actual attack.
TOOBIN: Right. The puncher, the guy who threw the sucker punch, he's already been arrested.
LEMON: But the part saying, you know, I'll pay for your, you know, your legal fees, is that -- does that have any -- does that weigh on any of this at all?
TOOBIN: That's, I mean, that's Donald Trump's right as a citizen. If he wants to pay someone else's legal fees, that has nothing to do with anybody's criminal liability.
LEMON: Kayleigh McEnany, here's what the Trump campaign said earlier today in response to the investigation that possible catches. "On one occasion while the police were escorting a young man out of the arena, he seemed to lift his hand and make an obscene gesture. We are told a 78-year-old man took great exception to this. It is the protesters and the agitators who are in violation, not Mr. Trump or the campaign."
So, I mean, what do you -- what does that mean? Because no one really saw really the guy making a gesture. And does that excuse what the man did with the protester?
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: No, it doesn't. In an interview this weekend that Donald Trump said, he said if this is a sucker punch, there's absolutely no excuse for this. What that man did is what we saw on video is the true and the whole story and we'll only know that once the litigation is settled, that's inexcusable and even Donald Trump would say that as he mentioned in his interview to Chuck Todd.
But I think they were making the point, their campaign has nothing to do with this. This was a political stunt on the part of the sheriff's office, I think. Because any one a law student can tell you, that incitement to violence, you have to go through the Supreme Court branding protestors absolutely there's no case here.
He would have had to directly have called for this man to punch this other man. And I think when this is all said and done, this man will likely be charged if the video is what it shows and the Trump campaign deserves to be distanced from it.
LEMON: And from a legal angle issue is she right, a legal perspective? Do I have to say, hey, Jeffrey, punch Kayleigh or can do I -- can it be as, you know, sort of nebulous as, you punch someone if they, which was she has done.
TOOBIN: Kayleigh is right. I mean, there are -- it is very difficult to prove incitement as a criminal defense. I mean, the Supreme Court has basically said the First Amendment protects almost anything you can say.
[22:45:03] However, this is not just about criminal law. The Trump campaign has to decide how much they want to push the atmosphere in which Trump speaks because they are going to be law enforcement authorities who say, you know what, we don't want this in our community.
And these authorities do have the right to say we think the situation is too dangerous. We're not going to allow you to have the rally. They haven't reached that point yet, but you can be sure that they are thinking about this when you look at how toxic some of these environments.
LEMON: Is there any discussion, Kayleigh, inside of the campaign where people are saying to Mr. Trump, maybe you should sort of pull back a little bit and not be so forward when it comes to statements like out on stretchers, punch them in the face, that sort of thing?
MCENANY: Well, I'm not privy to the campaign discussions but I have seen a change in Donald Trump's rhetoric in his interview with you, for instance, on Friday night he said seven times he doesn't condone violence. I think the statements he made in gest, were just that. They were made in gest. We've seen similar statements from candidates in past elections I can guarantee that he's like...
LEMON: Perhaps not realizing the consequences maybe?
MCENANY: Well, Barack Obama said you have to bring a gun to a knife fight. I know you people there in Philly like to brawl. A violence had taken place thereafter we could easily go back and trace it to Barack Obama statement.
It didn't happen because you didn't have Tea Partiers showing up at rallies. So, I think Donald Trump at hindsight probably finds those statements regrettable. He didn't say that. I don't think, I don't like his statement. But nonetheless, he has denounced violence time and time and time again but the media refuses to report it.
LEMON: He did says that he didn't regret any of the statement so he said that to me on Friday. You want this...
MCENANY: Because they weren't the direct cause of it and I don't he should have taken those statements back.
TOOBIN: Well, you know, the buck stops with the candidate and the way law enforcement usually deals with circumstances like this, they go to the top person and they say, look, you've got to exert some leadership here. Exert some control and tell your people to calm down.
Donald Trump has not said calm down. He has continued to, you know, whip up his supporters, as is his right. But, you know, he has to recognize what the consequences might be. I'm not saying that's a legal -- he's going to be criminally charged with that. But as a political matter, he is, you know, going to be seen as responsible for what goes on at his own rallies.
LEMON: What about -- what about his First Amendment right? He's saying that these protesters are infringing upon his First Amendment right -- rights. Is he correct?
TOOBIN: Well, it is -- in certain circumstances, it is true that it is a crime to disrupt a rally if you inject yourself so much that the speech can't go forward.
LEMON: The person can't speak. Yes.
TOOBIN: Those people can be arrested. So, you know, he does have a First Amendment right to speak. But, you know, there are ways of managing crowd that most politicians manage that doesn't lead to escalation but leads to calmer circumstances.
MCENANY: I do really want to point out, at the beginning of every single one of Donald Trump's rallies, they play a video that says do not engage in violence during this rally. Where is the culpability of moveon.org, where Donald Trump has condemned 10 times on Friday night alone, those were the two interviews I watched 10 times.
Where is moveon.org saying it's inexcusable that these protesters who we put in line to go to these rallies reacted the way they did? There needs to be culpability on the other side? If everyone wants to put the pressure on Trump who's repeatedly denounced violence, where's the pressure on the left?
TOOBIN: Well, the left, it's not clear that the left is engage in any sort of violence that I'm aware of. I mean, there's the one guy who ran onto the stage and he quite properly was arrested.
TOOBIN: But protesters, people yelling, that is not a crime.
LEMON: We're going to ask one of the organizers of the protest marches at Trump rallies a little bit later on what's their culpability, what are they responsible for as well. Thank you, both. I appreciate it.
MCENANY: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: When we come right back, tomorrow's vote might be the last chance for the republican powers that be to stop Donald Trump if they want to. That's what they say they want to do. But what happens to the party if Trump seals the deal?
[22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: We are counting down to tomorrow's Super Tuesday vote with 367 republican delegates at stake but as his rivals blast Donald Trump for the violence at his rallies, is it too late to stop him?
Joining me now is conservative columnist A.J. Delgado and Kellyanne Conway, the president of Keep the Promise One PAC, a super PAC supporting Ted Cruz.
Hello to you, both of you. Good to see you. A.J., Donald Trump denies that violence is even taking place at his events but it's happening. He's wrong. We've seen it. So, why not tell it like it is?
A.J. DELGADO, CONSERVATIVE COLUMNIST: Well, it's not really happening. When you think about it, how many rallies have there been? Dozens. And thousands and thousands of people attend each rally. And you have a couple of skirmishes not with saying in Chicago in which had nothing to do with Trump and his supporters. I left the leftist agitators that attended.
So, really there hasn't been a lot of violence. There isn't a problem with violence at Donald Trump's rallies but you're seeing this narrative pushed by the establishment by the media overall because they want these rallies to rallies to seize. They want the level of discourse on this issue to grow to the point that there's enough pressure put on Trump so that he has to seize these rallies which obviously help Trump.
It's a place, it's a positive message, with a positive environment where Trump supporters gather and we galvanize the base and that obviously helps the Trump movement. So, I think what's happening here is an agenda-driven push to have these rallies very much put out of existence and to apply that pressure on Mr. Trump to do so.
But really, there isn't all this violence that we keep hearing about. Where is it? It's statistically insignificant.
LEMON: So, then, A.J., we shouldn't believe our own eyes, is that or the people who are there reporting, or that they are all lying? It's not happening?
DELGADO: There is -- there is violence that comes in from the outside. It has nothing to do with Trump and the Trump supporters inside. Maybe if you're concerned about the violence, then you should ask Bernie Sanders, ask his supporters. Ask Bernie Sanders what is he saying that he's inciting violence. Why is it his supporters coming to Trump event? Trump supporters don't go to Bernie Sanders events to shut them down and to physically fight people there. I think you should be asking Bernie to move on what they're saying...
LEMON: Bernie sanders was asked about that and Bernie Sanders said that -- Bernie Sanders said that he had nothing to do with the folks going there.
DELGADO: He's lying. Obviously it's his supporters. I don't think he ordered them to but it's his supporters. Why is it that Trump is responsible for what his supporters do but Bernie Sanders is not? That double standard is so glaring.
[22:55:09] LEMON: Well, we're asking because it's happening -- it's happening at Trump rallies. That's why we're not seeing it at any other rallies. And that's for reason for the conversation.
DELGADO: Right. Because Trump supporters don't go to other people's rallies. We respect their rallies. They don't respect ours. So, probably not their end...
LEMON: And that's the reason we're -- to that point, A.J., that's the reason we're not reporting on it because it doesn't happen anywhere else, OK? Hang on, please. Because it's not happening at other rallies. It's happening at these rallies. Otherwise, we would be reporting it if it's happening with other rallies.
DELGADO: Because we do not go to their rallies. We respect their rallies. Correct.
LEMON: But Kellyanne, go on. Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz bringing this up. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRUZ: One difference between this and a Donald Trump rally is I'm not asking anyone to punch you in the face.
RUBIO: Hold up the Bernie Sanders sign. Don't worry, you're not going to get beat up at my rally.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Go ahead. So, what do you -- the competition is saying -- it's telling them -- saying that this is happening with Donald Trump. It doesn't happen anywhere else. They are pointing it out. Does this make a difference with this campaign?
KELLYANNE CONWAY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Actually, what Senator Cruz said is he went back to Mr. Trump's words about punching them in the face, in the old days you'd be taken out in a stretcher. So, he's very careful to use Donald Trump's actual words. I think the other two candidates been a little bit farther.
But, Don, I tell you what the greatest frustration of voters is, it's that they don't -- all of this means they don't get a conversation on the real issues. That's why the debates are so important to direct it as a form of democracy.
That's why, frankly, Cruz is still in the race because not everybody is convinced that Donald Trump should be the nominee. He gets a solid 35, 40 percent of the vote in those primaries and caucuses but all the rest are not yet convinced. They've just been -- they just been scattered among different candidates.
If you actually, if it becomes Trump versus Cruz after tomorrow night, starting Wednesday we have a new political landscape and then I think he will see it brought into sharper relief. Those who believe that we need a more civil discourse or we need that really a deeper, better conversation on the issues that animates Americans versus those who want to keep covering the theater.
LEMON: Thank you both. Our time is short here. We appreciate it. We'll be right back.
[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)