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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Trump, Cruz Dig In As Feud Gets Nastier; GOP Field Careens Toward Wisconsin Showdown; Clinton, Sanders Make Big Push In Wisconsin; Suspect In Custody After Pulling Weapon At U.S. Capitol; At Least 72 Dead In Attack Targeting Christians In Pakistan. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired March 28, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:22] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: And good evening. In just about a week, Republicans go to the polls in the state where the party was born, Wisconsin and in less than 24 hours, Donald Trump, Ted Cruz and John Kasich will face the voters in a CNN 360 Town Hall.
Until then, heavy campaigning in both primaries with a Hillary Clinton on the trail and a Ted Cruz event wrapping up earlier tonight. She is coming off a three-state defeat over the weekend and facing new calls from Bernie Sanders for another debate.
Senator Cruz, meantime, remains embroiled in a deeply personal spat with Donald Trump with their spouses caught in the middle.
CNN Sunlen Serfaty is covering the Cruz campaign joins us now from Rothschild, Wisconsin. There's been even more back and forth between Trump and Cruz today over their wives. What's the latest?
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. It's a dizzying exchange between them of charges, countercharges and allegations did really keep up Anderson. We saw Donald Trump in a rather contentious radio interview refuse outright to apologize for re-tweeting that photo of Heidi Cruz next to Melania Trump. Also doubling down on his allegations that Senator Cruz had something to do with this anti-Trump Facebook ad about Melania Trump which has not been baked up.
And Cruz for his part really double down and went after Donald Trump again saying that he planted this malicious tabloid story about him, which again that hasn't been backed up. But it seem that Senator Cruz tried to hit the reset button a bit today on a tone and that's something I asked him about when I sat down with him on his campaign bus here Wisconsin. Here's what he has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED CRUZ, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well look from the beginning, our focus has been on issues and substance. When others go to the gutter, I have not responded in kind. Donald has shown a willingness from the very beginning of this campaign to traffic in insults and personal attacks, he's directed them at everybody else. He's directed them at me, he's directed them at family members and my wife. That has no business in politics and I think people are tired of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SERFATY: So it seemed to me today a little shift in Senator Cruz really trying to take back control of the narrative even as this feud continues to wage on between them.
COOPER: And Sunlen, another battle for Trump today is between him and the GOP over delegates in Louisiana he tweeted, "Just to show you how unfair Republican primary politics can be, I won the state of Louisiana and get less delegates than Cruz lawsuit coming." He should have said "fewer" grammatically but what's this all about?
SERFATY: Well this goes back to the Louisiana primary which was settled sort of speak weeks ago in the beginning of this month. Trump walked away with a narrow lead and so he won the state but they both, both Cruz and Trump walked away with 18 delegates each, but there were still 10 delegates on the table for the taking. Some of Marco Rubio's delegates that are now released, so to speak and then of course five more delegates that are unbound.
And the Cruz campaign reportedly had been able to outmaneuver Trump and get those delegates potentially pledged to their side. And that's what set off Donald Trump today. And it was interesting with this threat of a lawsuit that Trump said in that tweet, Cruz was asked about this today on the campaign trial. And his response was really to brush it off as much as he could he said, you know, look this is a pattern we've seen from Donald Trump he likes to bully, he likes the threaten and lawsuits when he feels uncomfortable.
COOPER: You one-on-one with Senator Cruz we showed some of that you try to pin him down or whether not he would still support Donald Trump if he becomes the nominee. What did he say?
SERFATY: That's right, this is really fascinating to watch him evolve on this. And he for a long time has said that, point blank, he would support whoever the Republican nominee, yes, even if it is Donald Trump something he's always stuck to. He said it's a pledge, well here's what's he had to say today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRUZ: Well, as you rightly noted, I'm not in the habit of supporting people who attack my wife and attack my family. Donald Trump is not going to be the nominee we are going to beat him for this nomination.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SERFATY: So to my question that was not a yes, I will support Donald Trump that's not a "No", I won't support Donald Trump, seems to me to be softening on this issue Anderson, potentially inching towards potentially saying a definitive no.
COOPER: Right, because the line he's always used in recent times has been, well look I promised I would so I'm not going to go back on my promise. We'll see how that continues to evolve. Sunlen Serfaty thanks.
By now it's become well known that official endorsements of Cruz have been less than enthusiastic. Aimed more at stopping Trump than so supporting the candidate that said, his rank and file supporters the one who actually do the voting not the endorsing, they are deeply loyal to the candidate which raises the question, if their candidate loses the nomination to Donald Trump, then what?
Our Gary Tuchman asked a group of Cruz supporters and got some surprising answers. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:05:01] GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Before a campaign rally begins, loyal supporters are picked to sit behind the stage. And it's to those diehard Ted Cruz supporters we posed this question.
If Donald Trump gets the nomination, how many of you would vote for Donald Trump? How many of you might vote for Donald Trump? How many of you would not vote for Donald Trump?
Among these loyal supporters, there is anger about what Donald Trump has said and tweeted about Ted Cruz's wife, Heidi.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd have to think about it very, very hard. I've been waiting for a long time not to do this when I vote. And if Ted Cruz isn't the nominee, I guess -- I don't know, I can't vote for Hillary and I don't want her so I'd probably have to. But ...
TUCHMAN: Have to what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would vote for Trump, but ...
TUCHMAN: Would any of you vote for the Democrat?
You would ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely not.
TUCHMAN: You would vote for Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would, yes.
TUCHMAN: And you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton -- not Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump.
TUCHMAN: You're going to vote for Bernie Sanders over Donald?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bernie Sanders over Donald Trump, yes.
TUCHMAN: We didn't find many people at this rally who would support a Democrat but we found even fewer who could enthusiastically support Donald Trump.
THOMAS CONNOLLY, REPUBLICAN VOTER: I've had a lot of bias with Donald Trump. I just thought he was better than Hillary. Well, what changed my mind and put me in that #NeverTrump camp so to speak, is his attacks on Heidi Cruz.
TUCHMAN: So what do you now if he gets the nomination?
CONNOLLY: Stay home.
TUCHMAN: What do you think about Donald Trump said about his wife?
BARBARA MIROSLAW, REPUBLICAN VOTER: I think it's crap, frankly it's crap. It was horrible. No, it wasn't fair at all.
TUCHMAN: If Donald Trump gets the nomination for president, could you vote for Donald Trump?
MIROSLAW: I've been thinking about it, and I haven't really decided.
TUCHMAN: And that is a common sentiment here. People who say they are still confident Ted Cruz will get the nomination but don't know what they will do if he doesn't.
JEN GERBIG, REPUBLICAN VOTER: It's more likely that I would not vote for Donald Trump if my back was against the wall. I would just not vote at all.
SCOTT GERBIG, REPUBLICAN VOTER: I would write-in Ted Cruz as a write- in, as a protest.
TUCHMAN: You're a huge Ted Cruz supporter, if it came down to it and Donald Trump got the nomination, would you vote for Donald Trump?
JERRY MARKS, REPUBLICAN VOTER: Yes, but I'd hold my nose and hope he that he ain't going to blow up.
DENNIS FONGER, REPUBLICAN VOTER: If it's between Trump and Hillary, I will vote for him.
TUCHMAN: How will you feel about that vote?
FONGER: I -- not happy, but, you know, it's -- I think it's the best of two evils, really.
TUCHMAN: Cori Seyfert brought her 15-year-old daughter to the rally, mother and daughter both angry at the Trump criticisms of Heidi Cruz. And like so many here, just don't know what to do if Trump wins.
CORI SEYFERT, REPUBLICAN VOTER: I prayed a lot about that. I don't know that I will. I know a lot of people say that if I don't, then it's a vote for Hillary Clinton. But I don't know that I can vote for a man that does not represent me at all.
TUCHMAN: So, would you not vote?
SEYFERT: I have not yet made that decision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Gary Tuchman joins us now from Rothschild, Wisconsin. So Cruz wouldn't definitely say that he wouldn't support Donald Trump if he gets the Republican nomination. Joining the Cruz supporters, you talked with, I think he should declare who you would not support or that he would declare that he would not support Trump.
TUCHMAN: Well, shortly after the rally ended, Anderson, I was talking to a large group of Cruz supporters and a couple of them said, if Donald Trump gets the nomination and along the way he apologizes to Ted Cruz, then maybe Ted Cruz should support him. And other said, "Have you ever heard Donald Trump apologize before?" And they all laughed.
The consensus seemed to be that Ted Cruz made his feelings known that it doesn't serve any political purpose for him to say right now, I will not support Donald Trump no matter what. That it's important for him to keep his options open. Anderson?
COOOPER: All right, Gary, thanks very much.
Joining us again this hour, Kayleigh McEnany, Kevin Madden, Tara Setmayer and Ana Navarro.
Kevin, you heard Gary's piece. It's going to be an uphill battle for Cruz supporters to vote for Trump if he is the nominee, how panicked -- should the party be concerned? Should the party be about that right now? Should they?
KEVIN MADDEN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, look, I think that there is a very -- I think there's a question about how very -- how real this Never Trump or Dump Trump movement is. Obviously, both of these candidates, if they were to come out of convention or if one of these candidates were to come out of convention as the nominee, they're going to need to unify the party. I think that is why you see Ted Cruz so reluctant to say that he would not support Donald Trump even though he has been so personally critical of what he said about Heidi Cruz.
On the other side, Donald Trump, if he's going to win, he has to serve as a unifying force in the party as well. And I'll expect that there is a very big, very vocal right now group of Republicans that say they will never vote for Trump. But the question is, will Hillary Clinton, the choice between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, be -- could Hillary Clinton serve as the ultimate unifier in that question?
COOPER: Kayleigh, it's a good point because, I mean, there, you know, we've seen past elections where candidates, you know, where a candidate supporters says look, my candidate doesn't get it, I'm just not going to vote for the other candidate even though they're in my party.
Do you believe this Never Trump movement will last if, in fact, Trump is the nominee? [21:10:05] KAYLEIGH MCENANY, TRUMP SUPPORTER: I don't believe that because as you cited, there have been past elections where we've seen the same phenomenon play out namely, Hillary Clinton versus Barack Obama in 2008. There were many people -- that was a heated election, who said I will never vote for Obama. But we saw people coalesce around Obama. Hillary's supporters coalesce around Obama.
And he look at recent NBC polls shows 33 percent of Bernie Sanders supporters say they'll never support Hillary. I don't believe that and we're not sitting here talking about a never Hillary movement. I think it's something that's more prominent among the establishment candidates than the leaders in the party who say they'll never support Trump because he poses a threat to their interest. I don't think among voters that are going to be a problem because when they see the prospect of Hillary taking the White House, that's will be a unifying force.
COOPER: Tara, do you believe that as well? I mean to Kayleigh's point?
TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, I disagree because what have, you know -- the difference between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton really wasn't that great when it came to ideological, Democratic values versus Donald Trump who does -- fundamentally does not represent a very large part of the Republican voter base. He just doesn't represent me, he's not a conservative, he -- we don't really know what he is, I mean he changes like a political chameleon to whatever fits his needs at the time for political expediency.
And the fact that he doesn't have conviction I think bothers a lot of people. On top of all the antics, his behavior, his erotism with things, his incoherence on foreign policy, even on economics. So, you know, he's a businessman. People would think, oh well at least he can speak intelligently about economics he's all over the map on that. So there are a lot of people.
MCENANY: That's disingenuous, Tara ...
SETMAYER: That is not disingenuous, Kayleigh.
MCENANY: Is saying he doesn't have convictions, because ...
SETMAYER: He doesn't have convictions.
MCENANY: I guarantee you if you asked voters what is Donald Trump stand for economically they would say bringing jobs back to this country. He anti-free trade if you ask voters what ...
SETMAYER: Yet, his ...
COOPER: One at a time.
MCENANY: If you ask voter they could name that.
COOPER: And Ana.
SETMAYER: His record doesn't reflect that, he makes his ties, his against free trade when he makes his product and ties in China or Mexico. His against, you know, illegal immigration he want to build the wall, but he hires foreign workers over American workers or illegals, you know, illegal workers to build his towers.
So he's a hypocrite on these things, he's selling people ...
COOPER: Let me.
MCENANY: No, he's not a hypocrite.
SETMAYER: And that is a problem for a lot of people like me he's a hypocrite.
COOPER: Ana, and at the longer this battle goes on between Trump and Cruz, it's not really a battle about their wives I mean Donald Trump, you know, re-tweeted this picture, his blaming Cruz his Super PAC, he blames that Cruz has a connection to and Cruz obviously denies that.
How much does that hurt the party with women voters overall? CNN poll from last week before this all started found 73 percent of female voters nationally have an unfavorable view of Donald Trump.
ANA NAVARRO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: You know, I don't know what the fight is about I don't know if it's about, you know, the wives. And to me it's more about a fight of who can go lower. How low can you go? This is like limbo rock, these guys are playing. And I think it does the party a lot of harm, it does the country a lot of harm.
What we deserve as voters is a serious discussion on policy issues, the time for games is over. We started on the Republican side with 17 candidates we are down to three. One of these guys is likely our nominee. It is time that they start giving us some serious proposals that's they start showing they have the gravida, they've got the knowledge, they've got the temperament, they've got character and that they stop this race to the bottom of this barrel of how bad they can be and how crass they can be.
You know, I going to make a plea to the two wives involved here, to Melania Trump and Heidi Cruz I've seen you, Anderson, interview Melania Trump. She has said to you that she's disagreed with some things, that Donald Trump has said she didn't like it when he repeated that obscenity in that rally.
And Heidi Cruz is a highly accomplished woman who has put her profession on hold twice to support her husband's aspirations. Both these women love their husbands both these women have shown incredible common sense and support for their husbands. Get these men to act like grown-ups. COOPER: Kayleigh, you know its interesting Donald Trump has said repeatedly that as president he would be sort of different. His tone would be different, you know, that he can be whoever he wants to be in Palm Beach he's one way and people view him one way. Do you believe you seen that side of -- I mean clearly you believe he's capable of that, but do you believe he needs to start doing that on the campaign trail?
MCENANY: He does and we've seen it a little bit, I think starting with the AIPAC speech. Trump supporters were thrilled because what we saw was a President, we saw someone show up, give a very articulate speech with a lot of great points for which he got standing ovations. Likewise when he was interviewed with "The Washington Post" that same week and then with the "New York Times" this weekend on foreign policy. So we see that Donald Trump.
[21:15:12] Ben Carson has spoken to this, he's seen that Donald Trump that's the Donald Trump that I want to see tomorrow at the Town Hall. I think it's the Donald Trump we will see. And it's the Donald Trump that can beat Hillary Clinton and take the White House.
So, I know he has that ability and I think we're going to see that more.
COOPER: But Kevin, I mean, can a candidate say, I can be one thing as president, but on a campaign, it's a different kind of thing? Or it's the whole point of a campaign to kind of get voters to see who you actually are and how you would actually govern?
MADDEN: Well, I think on the one hand, Anderson, campaigns are very high stakes tests of character. I think personally, I believe that Donald Trump has failed on that, whether it's what he says about women or how he's talked about folks who are disabled. And/or also how he's talked about John McCain who was a, you know, a patriot and a prisoner of war.
But on the other side of it, it's your vision and whether or not you understand the stakes and have a very detailed plan for your vision for the country. And some of how we the country would overcome some of the challenges that we face.
And if you look at those two transcripts from the two interviews that he did on national security, which is a very central issue in this campaign, they were just full of tautological nonsense to "The Washington Post" and "New York Times." It is somebody who looks like they are talking about really big issues just off of the cuff. So I think ...
MCENANY: What was nonsense, Kevin? If you're going to say there's not ...
COOPER: Let him finish his thought. Let him finish ...
MADDEN: ... of Donald Trump. What they're going to ask for is him to move beyond just this bumper sticker rhetoric and said, offer detailed plans for what he would do.
And I don't think anybody seen that to this point. And I think those transcripts for a lot of people who care about those issues, I think they would find them very troubling.
SETMAYER: Now you're revealing.
COOPER: We're going to talk more about that in our next block. Kayleigh McEnany, Kevin Madden, Tara Setmayer, Ana Navarro, Thank you.
Just ahead, more on that interview that Kayleigh and Kevin just mentioned and what we learned from it whether it's possibly letting Japan and South Korea build nuclear weapons or cutting Saudi Arabia off cold. New insight into how Donald Trump might conduct himself as the leader of the free world or I think he said, stop buying oil from Saudi Arabia. We'll talk to one of the correspondents who interviewed Trump and got some remarkable answers.
Also, late details on the man police shot it as security check point on Capitol Hill. And the chain of events that brought Washington to a tense standstill earlier today.
[21:21:02] COOPER: Supporters tell us they like what Donald Trump stands for which is fascinating because with only a few exceptions, he's yet to fully specify what he stands for in specific with policies, especially when it comes with foreign policy. That is not until he spoke at length on Friday with Maggie Haberman and David Sanger from the "New York Times." What he said and what they learned is now making headline. David Sanger joins us along with our senior political analyst, David Gergen.
So David Sanger, I will start with you, remarkable interview on the headline. One of the headlines just come out of it that the Trump doctrine is essentially America first, did you feel this time he actually gave more specifics to back up what he would do as president because that's always one of the challenges in talking to him and pinning him down on specifics?
DAVID SANGER, NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: You know, Anderson, I'm not sure that he gave a lot of specifics about what he would do. But, we were able to probe him on a lot of areas that have not been discussed so far in the foreign policy part of the campaign. If you think about Donald Trump on foreign policy, you think build the wall, bar Muslims who are not U.S. citizens, at least temporarily. You think about some of his pronouncements about how to prosecute the war on ISIS.
We hadn't heard him before on China, other than on trade issues. We hadn't really pushed him on the question of what would happen if he pulled back from support for troops in Japan? And I said to him at one point, you know, if you do that, the Japanese are much more likely to go seek nuclear weapons of their own. They don't believe our nuclear umbrella is going to cover them. He said he was that quite open to that. There are a lot of people who would suggest that the United States has spent 50 years trying to prevent a nuclear arms race in Asia and that probably wouldn't contribute to that goal.
We pressed him for the first time, I think, on the Iran deal and what he would actually seek rather than just how he would renegotiate it. So that was the objective here. Sometimes it was satisfying. Sometimes it rambled off.
COOPER: And David Gergen, I mean, a lot of times it does seem to boil down to a question of negotiation with Donald Trump. I mean, that's how he sort of, I think at times he even pointed this out, sort of, frames everything as ...
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: The art of the deal.
COOPER: Yes, the art of the deal.
GERGEN: Everything is a deal.
GERGEN: And it usually revolves around economics. But there was -- what I found striking in the beginning from that was the parallels between Donald Trump's view of the world and the evolving views of Barack Obama.
You know, they celebrated peace in the Atlantic, the long interviews with Obama. He criticized the free riders as he called them that they ought to be paying up, the particularly criticized the Saudis, and they are up in arms about it. He criticized the Europeans.
Here along comes Trump and he's saying basically the same thing except he does it with a sledgehammer. You know, he takes a -- he just takes a hammer to our closest friends in the world. And it leaves you -- its rattled foreign ministers around the world and I just came back from the Middle East. So I can just tell you they're very, very alarmed in the Gulf States about what they see emerging with Trump.
COOPER: Well, it's also interesting, David Sanger because he -- Donald Trump, do you talked about being unpredictable and that he wants other nations to view him as unpredictable or think he's unpredictable. He sees that as an asset.
SANGER: He does and, you know, I mentioned in the story, this is something he has in common with Richard Nixon who always viewed that as an asset in his presidency and certainly something's like the opening with China were a giant shock to our allies and took Americans by surprise.
To pick up on David's very interesting point here, I think that the analysis of what has gone wrong is common with some things we've heard President Obama say, particularly about Saudi Arabia. If you go back to what Bob Gates, the former Defense Secretary said about NATO and the fact that after, with many people coming up that don't remember the Cold War, who are now voting, there is a risk that they wouldn't understand the return on investment in NATO. I think you heard much of that from Trump. [21:25:12] I think what is different here is that there are prescriptions about how you deal with that are entirely different, so that Mr. Trump, for example, was suggesting that we threaten that completely pull out of NATO. He was suggesting that we threaten if Japan doesn't provide more support, although they already provide most of the support for troops there that we completely pull out of that.
It's a different understanding, Anderson, of alliances. It's very transactional, where, in fact, our forward presence around the world provides significant benefit to the U.S. and intelligence, in early warning, in an ability to project power far from our shores.
COOPER: It's interesting, David Gergen, because I think with other candidates, if you ask something that maybe they weren't so familiar with, they might say, you know what, and Bernie Sanders has said to me several times, or once or twice, you know, you know, I got to think more about that or I'm not quite sure about that.
Donald Trump seems willing to kind of just free associate or say what comes in to his head and maybe later sort of fleshes it out a little bit more.
GERGEN: That's a good point and I think that can work under the domestic scene because everyone knows we have this rough and tumble. But on the international scene, it's usually that diplomacy is really conducted by people who are very careful, very thoughtful, very subtle, and they spend a lot of time trying to figure out what the best answers are. You know, if you want to cite Richard Nixon, you know, he was a student of international affairs for, you know, from 1940 to 1950 until the time he was elected in 1968.
You know, Donald Trump just sort of wanders in and think he can pop off about anything. And that causes a very strong fears overseas. It's the reason why the economist when it was usually came out with a list of the top 10 threats to the world's security and stability, said that Donald Trump is a nominee, he would be on the list. He alone would be on the list.
So I think it's incumbent upon him that now that this reaches serious state to be more serious about, you know, about the responsibilities that come. It's like putting somebody in charge of the Fed and having them just sort of go off any time you want.
It would totally unsettle of markets, so you markets can take that, or you want somebody in the presidency who speaks with more thought, more precision, you know people around him that you can respect that you can rely on. And that so far he's just ignored that through set of standards that we've had and acts as if American Foreign Policy for the last 50 years, which has been largely successful and the international order we've helped create, now we just blow it away and start all over again.
COOPER: And yet, to a lot of his supporters, that off the cuff style at seems authentic, you tell me like it is.
GERGEN: It is. And it work for. Let me say one last thing. COOPER: Yeah.
GERGEN: To embrace that the title of America first, I'm not sure he's forgotten, but before the Second World War there was a group called America First, they would tried to keep us out of war. Charles Lindbergh headed it up as a spokesman and you know, the 800,000 members, but it was all about not intervening. Think if they had been successful.
COOPER: David Gergen, thank you, David Sanger, thank you very much.
Fascinate with an interview, Donald Trump's world view will be on display tomorrow night in Milwaukee at our 360 Republican Town Hall, I'll be taking questions from the voters directly. So with John Kasich and Ted Cruz all gets on the way tomorrow night starting 8:00 Eastern Time right here on CNN. I'll be moderating.
Just ahead tonight. The Democratic race heating up Bernie Sanders riding a wave of caucus victories over the weekend, valuing to stop, Hillary Clinton in Wisconsin and calling for another debate.
We'll be right back.
[21:32:39] COOPER: Alaska, Hawaii and Washington held Democratic caucuses over the weekend. Bernie Sanders crushed it, winning all three by huge margins. He is starting the week with new momentum. There is no doubt about it. But his latest wins have not move the NATO much in terms of the delegate count. The next big contest now eight days away in the Midwestern.
Our Jeff Zeleny has the latest.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERNIE SANDERS, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: With your help, we're going to win right here in Wisconsin.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Riding high after three big weekend wins, Bernie Sanders is trying one more time to stop Hillary Clinton. The winds of their still hot Democratic primary fight are blowing towards Wisconsin.
Sanders, says momentum is on his side after sweeping Washington State, Alaska and Hawaii. But the math remains with Clinton who is eager to focus on the battle ahead with Republicans.
Today in Wisconsin she focused on the Supreme Court and consequences of the election.
HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What kind of justice would a President Trump appoint? Or for that matter, what's kind of attorney general? What kind of lower court judges?
ZELENY: In pledge delegates based on voting results, she holds an advantage of 237, but her biggest edge comes in superdelegates, those promises from party leaders who overwhelmingly support Clinton. The bottom line, the Clinton campaign has the upper hand.
Sanders hopes a win in Wisconsin, where he started planting a flag at one of his first mega rallies last summer, could shake up the race.
On CNN "State Of The Union," Sanders told Jake Tapper the outcome is still far from certain.
SANDERS: I think the momentum is with us. A lot of these superdelegates may rethink their position with Secretary Clinton. A lot of you not yet declared. And then you got superdelegates who were in states where we win by 40 or 50 points. I think their own constituents are going to say to them, hey, why don't you support the people of our state. Vote for Sanders.
ZELENY: Sanders is challenging Clinton to another debate in New York before the April 19th primary.
SANDERS: I would hope very much that as we go into New York State, Secretary Clinton's home state, that we will have a debate, New York City, upstate, wherever, on the important issues.
ZELENY: There's no agreement yet.
JOEL BENENSON, CHIEF STANDARD CLINTON CAMPAIGN: Senator Sanders doesn't get to decide when we debate, particularly when he's running a very negative campaign against us.
ZELENY: The Clinton campaign growing increasingly annoyed is treating Sanders with a gentle touch. They need his supporters if she wins the nomination. But the acrimony becomes clear at the mere mention of her name.
[21:35:12] SANDERS: Secretary Clinton who receives millions of dollars from Wall Street.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Jeff, I mean is the Clinton campaign concerned about Sanders now? I mean certainly after this weekend, you know, he did extraordinarily well.
ZELENY: Anderson, not concerned about winning the nomination necessarily but they are concerned about a couple of other things. In a Clinton rally is just wrapping up here in Milwaukee. They are concerned about the money it is going to cost to advertise in New York, one of the most expensive places around.
Also concerned more importantly about the time. The time Hillary Clinton has to devote to focusing on Bernie Sanders. She wants to focus her attention on Donald Trump now. She wants to be unifying this party. So, Bernie Sanders in the eyes of one adviser is a distraction. But someone they have to keep their eyes on because he is winning and could well win here next week in Wisconsin. Anderson.
COOPER: Jeff Zeleny, thanks very much.
A lot of discussion joining me now CNN Political Commentator is Van Jones who served in the Obama Administration and Angela Rye, Political Strategist and Former Executive Director of Congressional Black Caucus.
Van, on the fact that Sanders have such a good weekend, no one disputes that also no one was no one was really surprised, white voter caucus states. Is any of this enough to change the trajectory of the race which still, you know, seems to favor at Clinton?
VAN JONES, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Well, listen they a couple of guys look at it, you look at from a purely mathematical point of view it looks very daunting, but at the same time, you know, they are separated by about 230 delegates. For those 200 superdelegates out there that are unpledged, just the superdelegates. You got California still sitting out there in June. 475 delegates. If he does -- if he pulls off a Michigan miracle in California, he can do a lot of damage there.
So, there's still reason to hope and that's why Sanders supporters are so frustrated that they keep hearing this drum beat, you guys should sit down. You're done, you can't get there. They still see hope and they want the respect of having pulled this thing this far along to a message campaign to a movement campaign.
COOPER: And Angela, I mean Senator Sanders argues if he continues to do well, some of the Democratic superdelegates may rethink who are pledges to Hillary Clinton may rethink that, if they believe he has momentum and could actually win.
ANGELA RYE, CN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So, yeah, and I hear him saying that. I think the hard part about it is for the most part, the superdelegates are elected officials in the House and Senate. Of course they are also state elected officials who are superdelegates.
But for the most part, the ones who are influential in this space, we're talking about U.S. senators who he served with for quite some time as well as House members who he served with for quite sometime. And one of the things you hear from them often is that they didn't really work with Bernie Sanders as much.
Particularly my former boss this (inaudible) the CBC. They never had him, they had his support on a Congressional Black Caucus budget which, of course, we know often is just as progressive, if not more so, than the congressional progressive caucus budget. So they haven't seen a lot of things where they work with him on things like racial justice or Criminal Justice Reform. They don't have that record of partnership with Bernie Sanders. And, so I don't see a lot of them flipping at all. Anderson.
COOPER: You know, Van, what about the tone thing that you hearing out from the Clinton campaign, about, you know, well, you know, concern about Bernie Sanders tone and some of the rhetoric that continues against Hillary Clinton and saying why should there be essentially another debate if he uses that kind of a tone. Is that fair? JONES: Well, I mean, Hillary Clinton, Secretary Clinton is sort of in a catch-22. There are two kinds of Sanders supporters. There are some who saw him always as a message candidate to pull her further to the left to get the issues introduced. Those people are very much proud of what he's been able to achieve. They will flip to Hillary Clinton very easily. There's another set of Sanders supporters that's say, no, we really don't trust her. Or we don't believe her.
We really believe only Bernie can do this. And she's in a catch-22. If she hits him too hard she can drive those folks out of the party. If she doesn't hit back at all, those people can continue to cause her problems. So she's got to figure how to deal with the hard-core of Bernie Sanders supporters at the same time, what I want to say, you know, the tone has been, you know, nasty sometimes coming from Hillary Clinton. I mean she accused him of supporting the minute men, militia people. She's accused him of some bad stuff too. I hope that both sides can keep it as civil as possible.
COOPER: Angela, what do you make her tone?
RYE: Well a couple of things one is I think this tone has been a cakewalk this election season compared to 2008 frankly in the party. So I don't think ...
JONES: That should.
RYE: ... that it has been as aggressive at all. And I thought it was interesting that tone would even come out to play for a potential debate. The more opportunities they have to get out there and talk about the distinctions in their positions, the better.
I think whether or not if Bernie Sanders stays in and ends pulling off a miracle and becoming the Democratic nominee, there's more opportunity they have to vet his positions as well as for Hillary Clinton. She needs that opportunity as well to get her positions out there and demonstrate the distinction.
[21:40:11] COOPER: Angela Rye and Van Jones. Good to have you on. Thank you.
Just ahead new details from the breaking news what we're learning about the suspect who was shot by police inside the visitor's Center of the U.S. Capitol after he appeared to show a weapon, say authorities.
COOPER: More now on tonights breaking news. A security scare at the U.S. Capitol despite to locked down rattled tourists caught in the middle of the chaos. A suspect known to Capitol police is in custody, shot during the incident. All this happened inside the building designed to protect the Capitol from shooters.
Brian Todd has the latest.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A chaotic scene in the heart of Washington as visitors to the U.S. Capitol run for shelter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We heard get out, get out, there's an active shooter. And so we all ran out. Went outside of the building police escorted us up the building, simply the most stressful experience I've had in my life.
TODD: The incident sparked by a lone gunman who set off the metal detector as he entered the Capitol Visitor Center. Tourist and Capitol staffers were ordered to shelter in place.
[21:45:00] STEVEN KUCHINSKY, WITNESS: I saw everybody acting a little nuts, and then I saw a policeman coming through and officers coming out in a row. Just like sprinting down and they are going, move it get out of the way. And then I figured something is going on.
TODD: A female bystander was wounded by shrapnel.
CHIEF MATTHEW VERDEROSA, U.S. CAPITOL POLICE: An adult male subject entered the north screening facility in the Capitol Visitor Center. During routine administrate of screening, the individual drew what appeared to be a weapon and pointed it at officers. An officer fired and struck the suspect who was subsequently treated by medical personnel. The suspect was taken into custody and transported to the hospital for treatment.
TODD: Capitol police say the suspect acted alone and was known to authorities as a frequent Capitol Grounds Visitor. This comes as tourists from around the country have flocked to D.C. during the popular spring season.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With the updates they gave us, you know, updates, and they were very congenial to us, very hospitable and made us feel safe.
TODD: This vehicle behind me, this Dodge ram pickup truck with Tennessee pleats has been confirmed by police to be owned by the suspect. According to two law enforcement sources who spoke to CNN, he is identified at Larry Russell Dawson. And according to court documents he disrupted the House of Representatives chamber in October 2015, loudly stating to Congress he was a Prophet from God. He's identified in those documents as a 66-year-old man from Tennessee.
Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Things could have obviously ended much differently today if the suspect hadn't been taken down so quickly, say authorities.
Joining me now is Former NYPD Officer Dan Bongino who was also a Former Secret Service Agent. The fact Dan that this guy probably pulled the weapon at the Capitol was shot, and there were no more serious injuries to bystanders or law enforcement, I mean it's kind of amazing. Could have gone a whole different way? DAN BONGINO, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: Yeah, he made a pat on the back to the Capitol Hill Police Officers. You know, Anderson the situation like this you have two things you have to worry about, if you are a police officer. Drawing your weapon in a force on force situation which is clearly was. There is no way to know what kind of gun this was, it was a real gun or fake gun.
First let's see actual mechanics of doing it. But, secondly as a target discrimination. To engage with that target and not hit innocent bystanders, you know, this thing ended about as well as you can expect from a situation with such tragic circumstances. This guy was a gun with.
COOPER: The guy was known to law enforcement. He was issued to stay away order by D.C. Superior Court ordering him to stay away from Capitol Grounds. But something like that, I would imagine it's hard to enforce especially when you have a Capitol which part of the idea is that it's open to the public. That it's accessible to the public.
BONGINO: Right. Right in a major American Metropolitan Center. Yeah. I remember being the secret service agent and you would have these -- the old Polaroid pictures. And on the back would be a description of what we'd have, you know, lookouts, so or do not admits as we take. Do not admit this person into the event.
It's -- almost impossible to detect. I mean it's just -- it's you'd have to be so good at discriminating facial characteristics that it almost defies human physiology.
So, you are correct. But it does serve one purpose, Anderson and your listeners should understand. When you have this list together of people who are potentially going to be violent in the Capitol or at the White House. We had this in the secret service as well. It enables you with advance to reach out to family members and do kind of the soft work of policing, and, say listen we know this subject may have an issue with us for whatever reason. Reach out to us if you see anything unusual. That happens all the time in law enforcement. You'd be surprised how many good tips you can get from family members who don't want anything like this to obviously happen.
COOPER: It's interesting, I have realize that I mean I had some experience with stalker-type people. And often the law enforcement people have been involved with. They do maintain relationships with the family members of some of these people and sort of keep abreast of their whereabouts based on family members.
BONGINO: Oh, absolutely. We had one particular threat case to the president that was decades long on Long Island in New York when I was a young agent in their office. And the family members there were an absolutely invaluable asset. They had no interest in the individual being hurt either.
BONGINO: They would give us information consistently.
COOPER: Dan Bongino, Dan always good to have you on. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Coming up, the devastation in Pakistan. Christian families gathered in a park celebrating Easter Sunday when a bomb exploded killing at least 72 people and many of them children. What we know about the attack and who is behind it. Next.
[21:53:21] COOPER: But there is grief and anguish in Pakistan tonight after a devastating attack targeting Christians on Easter Sunday, families celebrating in a park in Lahore. The death toll from the bombing has risen to at least 72 people, including at least 24 children, 341 people injured.
A splinter group of the Pakistani Taliban is playing responsibility about more attacks. Some arrests have been made and cash and weapons and ammunition seized in overnight raids and Nic Robertson joins me now with the latest.
Nic, this group that claimed responsibility saying the attacks were targeting Christians, what more do we know about them?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: (Inaudible) they splinted from the main Pakistani Taliban about a year and a half ago. One of the reasons for that is that U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan have been effective at taking out the leadership of the Pakistani Taliban. The new leaders have not been as unified. So you have this splinter group that's come off. At one point it was rumored that they were going to be close to ISIS. Then they said, no, they are going back to support the Taliban. The reality is they've gone off on their own. Their track record is attacking Christian targets.
Indeed, in the past month, beginning of March, they attacked what they appeared to goal after Americans interest killing, using a roadside I.D. to U.S. consular worker -- workers. Pakistani nationals who working out of the Punjab (ph) Consulate, they were traveling in the tribal border region close to the Afghan border.
So this is an organization that typically has gone after soft targets, typically Christian targets, but it's also reacting with a very strong message the government here, Anderson.
COOPER: Do we know why they did this now and the timing of this? Was there a specific reason?
[21:55:04] ROBERTSON: Part of it seems to be a message to the government. Lahore is really the heartland of the ruling party, the government seat of power. That's where the Prime Minister is from, his brother is governor there.
So, they said in this attack, they were going after Christians, but it's a message to the government that this is the beginning of a campaign.
The government has been claiming successes against the Pakistani Taliban, against the splinter group as well inside the tribal border region with Afghanistan, north was Nuristan. Its offensive has been under way there since that horrific attack against school children and then for sure, a school in December 2014, more than 150 school children gunned down in cold blood there.
So, the government's message to the people is we're winning the fight against the Pakistani Taliban. This is a reaction to that saying, "No, you're not. We're still on the offensive."
There are some other details as well, you know. There's a hanging of terrorist suspects that the government has put in place. That's another part of it too.
COOPER: All right, Nic Robertson, appreciate the update. Thanks.
We'll be right back.
COOPER: And that does it for us. Thanks for watching. "CNN Tonight" with Don Lemon starts now.