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CNN Democratic Debate on April 14; Countdown To Wisconsin; Dueling Rallies For Trump & Sanders; Inside The Trump Campaign; Is Wisconsin Trump's Waterloo?; Polls: Cruz Leading Trump In Wisconsin; Can Trump Win With Women Voters?; GOP Battle For The Northeast. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired April 4, 2016 - 21:00   ET



[21:00:05] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: That does it for us, thanks for watching. We'll see you again at 11'o clock p.m. for another edition of "360."

CNN TONIGHT with Don Lemon, starts right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: And the breaking news is Hillary Clinton/Bernie Sanders go head-to-head right here on CNN in a prime-time debate in Brooklyn.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

You can see our Democratic debate, it's on April 14th, beginning at 9:00 p.m. eastern and meanwhile just hours to go until the Wisconsin primaries. In Milwaukee tonight, it's a tale of two rallies, Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders whipping up their supporters right across the street from each other. And Trump rolling out his secret weapon.


MELANIA TRUMP, DONALD TRUMP'S WIFE: And together, we will make America strong and great again.

BERNIE SANDERS, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have won six out of the last seven caucuses and primaries.


LEMON: In the most unconventional campaign that we have ever seen, who is up, who is down? And will Wisconsin be the end of the road for somebody? Definitely a lot going on tonight. So let's get right to Milwaukee where CNN's Sara Murray and Brianna Keilar are covering tonight's dueling rallies just across the street from each other. Look at that.

So Brianna to you first, breaking news. A new Democratic debate has just been added right in the middle of this critical time in the election calendar. What can you tell us? BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. So this is going to be on April 14th and it will be in New York. It's actually going to be in Brooklyn, Don, which is interesting because that's where Hillary Clinton has her headquarters and that's also where Bernie Sanders was born.

So they both now have ties to the area. Our very own Wolf Blitzer is going to be moderating and maybe one of the most interesting things about this debate is how it came to be. There was this back and forth between the Clinton and Sanders campaign. Hillary Clinton's campaign offered this date five days before the New York primary.

Sanders offered a date two days before, you know, the date that Hillary Clinton was offering was on the day -- on the night of a big rally that Bernie Sanders is planning in Washington Square Park, so he didn't want to move it but in the end he capitulate. He have to sign that he's more gung ho about having his chance to make an impact in New York than he is.

LEMON: Brianna is very loud there, so I hope you can hear me. I want to turn to Wisconsin and Hillary Clinton's campaign. They sent out this e-mail to supporters tonight and here's what it reads, it says, first friend, two quick notes. First we're down in almost every poll in Wisconsin. Tomorrow's primary will be a tough fight. Second the Sanders campaign raised over $43 million in March making that the third month in a row they've out raised us. This nomination isn't locked up yet and we've got to keep fighting for every vote if we want to see Hillary Clinton in the White House.

So Brianna, the question is, the poll show that Bernie Sanders slightly ahead in Wisconsin. But it's a statistical dead heat really for the Democrats, the delegates could be, it could well be split. Why is Wisconsin so important?

KEILAR: Well, Wisconsin is very important specifically for Bernie Sanders because if he can pull out a win here, his hope and he's been saying that this because he's been talking a big game here in Wisconsin, Don. His hope is that he will ride that momentum into New York on April 19th.

You might look at the polls in New York. You see there's about 12- point spread from what we're seeing between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. You might think that's a pretty good margin. But if he, say, those polls are off just a little bit, if he gets a lot of momentum, you can see how that gap really starts to close. That's part of the reason why Hillary Clinton is spending time in New York.

Keep in mind, though, this is really important. These delegates are awarded proportionately, so Bernie Sanders wouldn't just have to beat Hillary Clinton in New York and in Wisconsin. He would have to beat her by a huge margin.

LEMON: Right.

KEILAR: So that still yet to be seen.

LEMON: Talk us to more about the impact this could have on the big delegate prize coming soon here in New York.

KEILAR: Well, what Bernie Sanders needs to do at this point in time is really pick up almost somewhere in the ballpark of about two-thirds of all of the delegates moving forward. He would really have to step up his game in terms of the fraction of these delegates that he is picking up. He's still trailing considerably behind Hillary Clinton. You heard him touting that he's won six of the last seven contests. That's true. He has this momentum in his favor. He's the one winning, but if this point he's still considerably behind and he would have so much to make up for in that delegate math.

A lot of people think it's almost impossible for him to do, Don, but he's insisting that this is something he's going to be able to do and he's taking this all the way to the convention.

LEMON: Yeah, he did raised $44 million in March, that's a lot of money as well. OK, Brianna, stand by. I want to bring in Sara Murray now, Sara your at the Trump rally tonight. So what's happening there?

SARA MURRAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is Donald Trump's third stop of the day here in Wisconsin. And this one was interesting, because he brought his wife Melania Trump up on stage. But then you heard a little bit of a clip of that. And Trump is coming off of a rocky week. He had those flip-flops on abortion, he suggested that women maybe deserved to be punished if they got an abortion illegally.

[21:05:09] And Melania Trump really want to come to her husband, defend tonight, she came up on stage and she said, whenever anyone hits Trump, he hits back 10 times harder but that he treats people equally, whether they are men or whether they are women. So clearly the Trump's banding together and hoping that maybe she will show a softer side of her husband, something maybe out women aren't seeing from him on the campaign trail. Don.

LEMON: So Sara, there's a new article by "New York Magazine" Gab Sherman, it reveals that Mr. Trump wears a bulletproof vest. What is the campaign saying about that?

MURRAY: Well, Don, the campaign is being tight lipped about this. They directly then fray to secret service, and secret service is really careful not to talk about the specifics of any kind of security they are providing to any candidate. So I don't think we should expect to hear a lot more detail on this one. Don.

LEMON: Let's talk about Ivanka Trump, right the same article reveals that Ivanka is an extremely influential voice in her father's campaign. And she tells him to be to act more presidential. We've heard that and, you know, from his wife Melania. He says Melania tells him the same thing. You think there's going to be a change here?

MURRAY: Well, Trump has made clear that the women in his life are not afraid to weigh in on when they think he's gone too far, when they do feel like he needs to be more presidential. But he's been saying on the campaign trail lately look, if I had been more presidential, people would have been bored. People would not have paid attention. And so I needed to do what I did in order to sort of get to where I am and the polls. And I think this is something that you see reflected in this campaign, the campaign manager's slogan is, let Trump be Trump. So I don't think we're going to all of a sudden see an about- face and big shift from the campaign. Don.

LEMON: And Sara as well aware of Donald Trump spent the weekend trying to manage the fallout from a series of gaffes and negative events last week. He admitted that it was a mistake to tweet that awful picture of Heidi Cruz next to a glamorous one his wife. He told the "New York Times" that yeah it was a mistake. If I had to do it again, I wouldn't have done it. Why this change in tactic, do you think?

MURRAY: Well Don, I think the reality is the Trump campaign is looking at the same poll numbers that we're looking at. And these poll numbers show that Trump has a very -- women have a very unfavorable view of Trump when you look at the broader electorate.

This is a campaign that it just beginning now to sort of look ahead. They're looking at a potential general election. And Trump said is right, that he feels like he will have the nomination locked up before they get to the convention. If that's the case, he needs to be prepared to battle in a general election potentially against Hillary Clinton. Not just for Republican women but for women more broadly. And I think you start of seeing him rethink some of the steps he made there and try to shift a little bit more of attention to the general election, Don.

LEMON: All right, Sara Murray as you can hear at a Trump rally, because they're saying Trump, Trump, Trump. Brianna Keilar, at a rally as well.

MURRAY: You caught that?

LEMON: Yeah, I did -- I caught that at Bernie Sanders rally tonight. Thanks to both of you.

I want to turn now to two people who know the political landscape in Wisconsin better than Moses, Jerry Bader, he's a talk radio host and a Ted Cruz supporter, and also Jason Stein is with us as well, a reporter for the "Milwaukee Journal Sentinel."

Thank you gentleman, good evening to you. Jerry, I'm going to start with you. You are one of six talk radio hosts. Going on the air waves against Donald Trump and supporting Ted Cruz. Why do you dislike Trump so much?

JERRY BADER, TALK RADIO HOST: I'm all is it's not a matter of dislike in a personal sense quite frankly it's a matter of feeling that he's completely unqualified to be president both in demeanor and in Grassroot issues. Other than that, he's a great candidate, Don. There's nothing about the man that appears presidential in terms of intellectual heft, mastery of issues and the playground behavior. It's really that simple.

LEMON: Just that simple. Jason, you know, you spent a lot of time talking to political figures, regular people. Wisconsin being Donald Trump's waterloo you think or can he pull out a win there?

JASON STEIN, STATE CAPITOL REPORTER MILWAUKEE JOURNAL SENTINEL: You know, I think it's going to be very difficult for him. Both in terms of earned media and in terms of paid media, he's lagged here in a way that I don't think he has in many other states. And, you know, frankly, the way he's handled the state has not helped him over the past week.

LEMON: Jerry, you recently described a conversation with Mr. Trump as feeling like a "Saturday Night Live" skit. Explain that.

BADER: Nothing seems to be rooted in reality when you talk with him and what really, was a microcosm of his entire campaign. You know, he was shocked at the fact that as an opinion maker, I actually have expressed an opinion on the candidate, in this case, Ted Cruz. He kept going back and back to that.

And to actually -- you know, I've seen him do this how many times. But to be part of that, she started it. She started it. I mean, I'm a father, I remember that from 15 years ago, and it's just -- it doesn't seem real.

LEMON: How much of this do you think is -- what do you think it's doing to the people in Wisconsin? How much is it penetrating? Because it doesn't -- you know, there's at least one poll I think that shows Donald Trump may be ahead, but all the other polls show Ted Cruz is ahead there.

[21:10:08] Do you think its penetrating is, do you think it's weighing on voter there?

BADER: I do -- I think particularly, you know, Jason referred to the week that Donald Trump has had. And maybe he's got some tea leaves sense on this but what I'm hear, what has really hurt him is the re- tweeting of that unflattering picture of Heidi Cruz that that has really resonated.

The other thing, bashing Scott Walker in Wisconsin, was idiotic and it appears it's really hurting him. He was looking at an overall underwater number 40 percent, Scott Walker is still 80/17ish with conservative in Republicans in Wisconsin, and I think those two things are hitting him and hitting him really hard.

LEMON: Jason, you want to weigh in on that?

STEIN: I definitely would agree in that in a general election, you know, you could debate the value of a Scott Walker endorsement. But running against the governor here in Wisconsin in a Republican primary was a risky strategy for Trump.

LEMON: Hey Jason, I want to ask you, because I hear many people say the same thing that the re-tweeting of that picture was really a turning point for them. Very simply they just saw it as mean.

STEIN: Well, I think as well, you -- they have to remember that that picture was re-tweeted, you know, shortly after the terror attacks in Brussels. So I think part of the just amaze reaction on the part of the state was to see that Donald Trump and to a lesser extent Ted Cruz were fighting over their wives at a time when, obviously, there were life and death issues afoot in the race.

LEMON: Yeah. Let's talk about this white supremacist robocall making the rounds in Wisconsin. Let's listen and we'll discuss.


MARY MITCHELL, AMERICAN FREEDOM PARTY: My name is Mary Mitchell and I'm a member of the American Freedom Party. I am voting for Donald Trump because he will not only be presidential, he will put America first. Furthermore, he will respect all women and will help preserve western civilization.

This message is paid for by William Johnson, a farmer and white nationalist. This call is not authorized by Donald Trump.


LEMON: Jerry, I understand that you got this call, you played it on your show, what did your listeners say?

BADER: Well, it's interesting. I was actually battered pretty good by the Trump supporters. The suggest and look, Donald Trump can't -- isn't responsible for who supports him and who spends money on him. And my response to this is, you know, that Donald Trump doesn't welcome that support. I took a pretty hard hit on Twitter and e-mail. And my response to that is this, the man who doesn't bathe for a month, you didn't invite and welcome the flies that then surround him after that, but he shouldn't wonder why they are there.

LEMON: Now that's interesting. Jason, what do you make of that call?

STEIN: Well, it was a remarkable call. Not something I've seen in a decade covering Wisconsin politics. My colleague Patrick Maloney actually spoke to William Johnson this morning. And one thing that Mr. Johnson told him was that he wanted to make a point of including the term white nationalism in that ad you just heard or the robocall because he wanted the public to start getting comfortable with the term white nationalism and to start hearing it more. And so, you know, obviously, I think a lot of viewers will find that disturbing.

LEMON: Yeah, Jason, I also want to ask you out about the Democrats. Bernie Sanders is there in Wisconsin. Clinton went to -- Secretary Clinton went to New York. Do those optics matter to Wisconsin's Democrats you believe? As well are these live pictures of Bernie Sanders now? These are live pictures of a Bernie Sanders event as you answer this, Jason.

STEIN: Of course. Obviously, Senator Sanders has been rallying people all over the state. Campaigned very hard here and appeared a little tired last night in Madison from the effects of that. Obviously, I do think it's telling that President Clinton was here in Milwaukee today campaigning for his wife but Secretary Clinton was in New York. Obviously, there's some effort to control expectations on the part of the Clinton campaign. They may still pull this state out, but, obviously, it would appear to be going to Senator Sanders.

LEMON: Got a lot out of that conversation. Thank you Jason Stein, thank you Jerry Bader. I appreciate, we'll have you back on soon. Thanks.

STEIN: Our pleasure.

BADER: Thank you.

LEMON: When we come right back, inside the Trump campaign. H how is Donald Trump's orthodox -- unorthodox run surprised everybody? Maybe even the candidate himself.

We'll be right back.


[21:18:20] LEMON: On the eve of the Wisconsin primary, we're getting an inside look at how Donald Trump operates his campaign. It's actually its fascinating. I wanted to dig into this deeper with Dan Rather, the host of AXS TV's "the big interview" and Gabriel Sherman, national affairs editor for "New York Magazine" who wrote this week's cover story, "How the Trump campaign actually works."

All right, so we're going to dig. Welcome, to both of you, gentlemen. So Gabriel, we're going to pull this part. But take us aside because I've gone there for the interviews. You know, a number of us. You need to go to the conference room and sometime he invites you up to his office. You get to see all his trinkets is this, velvets (ph) from this prize fighter, you know, the things.


LEMON: But the campaign headquarters, take us inside. What is that like? Where is this?

SHERMAN: Yes, so I was fascinated to learn. You go to Trump tower. You get tourists snapping pictures. It's grand, its glimpse. You take an elevator up to the fifth floor. There is a frosted glass door. You pull open this door. You think you are in a construction zone. It's kind of an empty room. There are some plastic garbage cans on the floor. You go around the corner and there's an unfinished room wires hanging from the ceiling. A bunch of college kids, 20- somethings sitting around and its -- you cannot imagine that the GOP front-runner, a national campaign, is being run out of this essentially a boiler room on the fifth floor of Trump tower.

LEMON: It's not glamorous or fancy like Trump Tower?


LEMON: It's not gold, know that beautiful. SHERMAN: No.

LEMON: OK, so here is like -- this is what you say about the campaign and again if this is the cover of "New York Magazine". You said, "The focus of the race is changing from what he is naturally good at riling up the populace to something closer to what happens on Capitol Hill, horse-trading, negotiating, working levers behind closed doors. Trump may soon need to change how his campaign operates raising outside money, engaging super-pacs he has denounced and widening his circle beyond essentially himself."

[21:20:05] So that boiler room and beyond is going to have to start operating differently like a real campaign.

SHERMAN: And we're seeing this now. We're seeing ...

LEMON: A more traditional campaign.

SHERMAN: And we're seeing this in North Dakota. We're seeing how Ted Cruz have been muscling delegates in Louisiana and Tennessee. Trump has realized that the race is now shifting to a trench warfare-style campaign where it's a battle for every delegate. He needs to bring in people who have that expertise.

LEMON: Mr. Rather, do you see this as a battle for delegates now? Because do you get the sense that he himself and his campaign are they worried about not getting to that magical number of 1,237?

DAN RATHER, HOST, AXS TV'S "THE BIG INTERVIEW": I don't think. I don't think really expect to get that number. I think they are convinced they'll be short, perhaps a little short, but they'll going to try, of course.

Two things. One, Ted Cruz is a strategic thinker. And because he's a strategic thinker, he's planned well in advance for the campaign and the caucuses, campaign among the delegates. Donald Trump, as Gabriel just point out is just now getting on to that. So he's play behind.

Donald Trump is a -- the tactical operator.

LEMON: Right.

RATHER: And the difference between strategic thinker and tactical operator, in the early stage of the campaign tactics paid off very big for Donald Trump. Along with the other I think he's a great entertainer. He understands television. All of those things. But I would caution going too far with Trump changing. I'm not so sure that he's capable of changing. This might as give an outline that he made me to do. The other cautionary note is ...

LEMON: Let me ask you this before you get on ...


LEMON: ... to that. So if he's not capable of changing. If he's the guy whose on, you know, the front guy, right he is the face, if he can't change, what about behind the scenes, can his campaign become -- I think you're saying more strategic rather than tactical, correct?

RATHER: I don't think so because I think Donald Trump is the campaign. Listen to this, if you have a bunch of operatives who run the campaign.

LEMON: I think you off, you said the other caution is what? The other warning that you have grant was it?

RATHER: Well, the other cautionary note is this is a very important vote tomorrow. And Trump has not lost it. Naturally, the campaign coverage follows the polls. The expectation is that Ted Cruz will win Wisconsin. That's my expectation. Just a cautionary note to the Ted Cruz supporters and others that old saying, don't taunt the alligator until after you cross the creek might come in handy here.

LEMON: That is a "Ratherism". I ncase you miss that. So Gab, I have to ask you because we've been to go and talking like going inside the campaign. When you look at Corey Lewandowski, who's this, you know, this campaign manager now. They say he's losing power. They're taking power from behind the scenes and you have Hope Hick his press secretary, two people who are unconventional. They are not your typical political insiders.


LEMON: Has that work for him? Will that continue to work for him in this next pace of his campaign?

SHERMAN: Well, it clearly it's worked up to this point. He's been the front-runner, he is upended the American political establishment.

LEMON: But are they Gab. Do you remember when, then Senator Obama brought everybody in, you know, from Chicago and everyone said he needs to get rid of these people from Chicago. He needs more Washington insiders.


LEMON: Is that the case with Donald Trump?

SHERMAN: Well clearly, he's made moves in that direction. He brought in, to Dan's point about being strategic. He's brought in Paul Manafort who legendarily helped Gerald Ford then of Ronald Reagan in sergeancy in '76 in the convention floor fight.

So Trump is trying to pivot it to a more strategic thinking but stylistically, I agree with Dan. I don't know if he is capable of changing. He has been playing this character of Donald Trump for 40- plus years, now. This is who he knows how it would be and can he change, he's talked about being presidential but we haven't really seen any evidence of that.

LEMON: He says Ivanka, his daughter is asked him to be more presidential, his wife Melania as well. And you right there are some tension between Corey Lewandowski and Ivanka, who we reported earlier. Ivanka, you know, really has a voice in his campaign. SHERMAN: Yeah, she -- he listens to her. She's pushed him hard on women's issues and ...

LEMON: Is there a tension?

SHERMAN: Yes, well she is told people as my sources said that she wants her father to bring in someone who can get him to that next level. It's important to point out when Trump hired Corey Lewandowski. He wasn't -- Corey Lewandowski was in the political wilderness. He was in New Hampshire. He hadn't really managed a campaign of anywhere near this level and Ivanka Trump wants the best for her father and she said maybe he needs to bring in somebody who can get him there.

LEMON: Mr. Rather, a lot of people have been speculating this at this point because so many things happened last week. That Donald Trump may be self-sabotaging because he's exhausted, he realizes he may be in over his head, he really doesn't want to be president of the United States. What do you think of this, Dan?

RATHER: Well, first of all, I don't think Donald Trump thinks he's in over his head. I don't think he's capable of thinking that way. I will say that needs smart like way that part of his appeal is his confidence. However, unquestionably, he and the people around him, including his family and most especially his daughter and wife, who are very influential with him.

They had to size up the last week and I say that 10 days before that is a very bad period. I wouldn't say, waterloo is too strong for me. But there were indications that Donald Trump, maybe, you know, maybe his brand turned to guacamole or something because he made one mistake after another. Some of them got very well publicized to putting out of picture scripts and what he said about abortion and he had to roll that back and ...

[21:25:12] LEMON: And Corey Lewandowski that that scandal.

RATHER: What didn't get much attention were some things that I do think resonated a lot with people. Talking about, in effect, pulling the United States out of NATO ...

LEMON: Right.

RATHER: ... exclamation point. And more importantly, paving the way for Japan ...

LEMON: South Korea.

RATHER: ... to -- and South Korea to get nuclear weapons. You know, an awful lot of voters who were of memory age during World War II, and the idea of allowing -- encouraging Japan to get a nuclear weapon, I think resonated deeply with a lot of people kind of below the surface.

SHERMAN: There's really a feeling in some corners of the Trump world that he need to put this away on Super Tuesday. He needed to have win -- won Ohio in addition to Florida. And that would have really closed the deal.

And now he has left himself open to this war of attrition, where we're going state by state and it's -- does he have the stamina to do that?

LEMON: You thought we were done?? We're not, because you guys are sticking around. So stay with me gentlemen. A rare admission from Donald Trump. He tells a reporter it was a mistake. Yes, Donald Trump tells a reporter it was a mistake. Is he doing damage control after last week's gaffes on the campaign trail?

We're going to look at that, next.


[21:30:14] LEMON: Is Donald Trump doing damage control ahead of Wisconsin's primary, an important primary's in key northeastern states later this month. Back with me now, Dan Rather and Gabriel Sherman.

So Mr. Rather, you know, we saw Donald Trump, we saw he's taking on Sunday shows on his terribly bad week. You say you wouldn't call it a waterloo, but it was a pretty bad week, he talk about on abortion, he said he wished he had answered differently, the re-tweet that unflattering, he said if he had to do it all over again then he would do it I quote, could this is what he said, "Yeah, it was a mistake. I had to do it again, I wouldn't have sent it". So it's not quite an apology but what do you make of this cleanup?

RATHER: Well, first of all, I think it is an effort a damage control, he's using at to cleanup. In market, you won't hear Donald Trump apologize very often about very much. And that's about as close to an apology that I would consider it an apology.

Look again, he's got to know, people are really and got to be saying all the time, including his family, you know father, husband of mine, you've got to understand a couple of things. One of, I do think he's a bit tired. I think for the first time he is showing some weariness.

LEMON: Let's talk some about that because I think it was Arianna Huffington who said it, probably he needed some sleep. And that, you know, a lot of people had been saying that, it, he said, he has only sleep four hours a day, you and I know when you are on these hours, you know, and I can't imagine a presidential campaign. It catches up with you, sometimes it would like things come out of and might you get, what did I just say, right, so it's going to be catching a little bit, you think he's sleep deprived and exhausted?

RATHER: I wouldn't say exhausted. I will say weary and the campaign beginning to grind on him. And that's no slam on him. It happens to every candidate who goes the distance with this kind of campaign anyway.

And also and Gabriel made this point. He's running the most unorthodox American political campaign in history certainly a modern history. It's all on him.

LEMON: Yeah. RATHER: And, but it keep coming back to he still leads in delegate count. And I would analyze, sometimes I'm wrong about these things, if Trump pulls it out in Wisconsin, effectively it's over.

LEMON: Its over, if he's the nominee.

RATHER: And if he doesn't, if Cruz crushes him in Wisconsin, it's a bigger victory for the Stop Trump movement ...

LEMON: Right.

RATHER: ... than it is for Cruz, per se.

LEMON: Let's talk about this idea of exhaustion. As you noted in your article he's wearing the bulletproof vest. You don't believed his comfortable, but do you think its right about him being tired and?

SHERMAN: Oh yeah without question, his friends, his people around him, tell me they've never seen him this tired, you know, Trump hates sleeping in hotels. It makes sense when you own fancy ones all over the world. But he makes every effort to fly home to New York or to Palm Beach after these campaign rallies which means he's sometimes landing at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning. Rolling in the bed, rolling out of bed to hit the road again.

So he's just on his grueling schedule, he's traveling with a shoestring staff. He doesn't have speech writers, he's kind of writing notes on the fly. I mean this is a one-man show what -- which you're seeing. You know, you're seeing the effects of that. The benefit is that he, you know, has gotten this far, but there are limits to what one person can do.

LEMON: There are but the flip side is that he needs it to live. I mean he needs this. He loves the attention. If he wasn't doing this, you know he'd be doing "The Apprentice" or ...

SHERMAN: Well, and I record in a piece, that he never thought he would get this far. For the plan was always to go back to "The Apprentice".

LEMON: Well. Your right, you said, here's what your tweeted, you said, I love the Donald Trump's tumultuous week narrative. What week hasn't been? So that -- I mean, why do you think last week was different?

SHERMAN: I don't think it was. I mean I just see a pull back the lens a little bit. How many times has there been a string of headlines, Donald Trump insulted John McCain as, you know, being a P.O.W. Donald Trump has said this, I mean you just tick off, go down the line. There is been enough apparent campaign and then gaffes that he's made and yet it hasn't dented his support, 30 to 40 percent of the Republican primary electorate wants Donald Trump to be the nominee. That number has been solid. So to me, it's unclear that this last week will change the fundamentally change the trajectory.

LEMON: So it wasn't a terrible week for Donald Trump or just, you know, people sitting here, like us saying, oh this was terrible, this was horrible.

RATHER: It was a bad week.

LEMON: It's a bad week.

RATHER: Probably reasonable.

LEMON: Let me ask you, so OK. So here's what "The Washington Post" published an internal memo Mr. Rather some of that Trump adviser Barry Bennett sent out to campaign staff over the weekend blasting its critics, and here's what it says, "America is sick of them. Their idiotic attacks just remind voters why they hate the Washington establishment. Donald Trump 1, Washington Establishment Media zero."

So again, you know we're pointing out the polling and what happened and all but it doesn't really show that it made that big a difference, even though you said it was a terrible week.

RATHER: Well it didn't make a big difference for those who committed to Donald Trump. As you see somewhere between 30 and 40 percent of dedicated people in conflicting parties. But Trump still has something is going for him. He is attracting some people who used to be called Reagan Democrats, that working from as middle economic class working people who are inclined to vote Democratic but they like Trump because he projects strength. That he projects leadership.

[21:35:14] And who he says some of the things they've been thinking such as we can't keep shipping jobs overseas. We need to build a wall, that kind of thing. I think it's way too early to underestimate Donald Trump.

Look folks, even if he loses Wisconsin big time, he's been hurt. He's been hurt badly and he will still have the most delegates. And if you have to bet the rent money, you bet that he goes to the Republican convention with the most delegates.

LEMON: That was a fire. That he doesn't like to loose ...

SHERMAN: He's going to fight, he's not going to lose New York.

LEMON: He does not like to loose ...


LEMON: ... right, I always say, do not never underestimate your opponent but don't underestimate Donald Trump. Thank you gentlemen.

RATHER: Thank you so much.

LEMON: It always a pleasure, always a pleasure, great article.

SHERMAN: Great. Thank you so much.

LEMON: Coming up Donald Trump and Ted Cruz both say if they're confident heading into tomorrow's crucial Wisconsin primary but something is got to give. Who will come out on top? We'll discuss. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: And we're back. Ted Cruz leads in the latest Wisconsin polls by Donald Trump is teasing a big surprise in tomorrow's primary.

Joining me now, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, a senior adviser for the Trump campaign and the Kellyanne Conway, president of "Keep the Promise 1 PAC" a Super PAC supporting Ted Cruz and the Matt Lewis author of "Too Dumb to Fail" of the GOP betrayed the Reagan revolution to win elections.

[21:40:16] Matt -- Matthew Kenneth Lewis as he says when he's in trouble with his parents, he gets the middle name treatment. So you aren't in trouble but any ways, good evening to all of you.

Sarah, so Cruz is expected to win most of Wisconsin's 42 delegates tomorrow. What's the Trump campaign's plan if that happens?

SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, DONALD TRUMP FOR PRESIDENT CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: You know, I think our plan is the same, I think we're going into Wisconsin, we're looking to pick up as many delegates as possible, the same way we go into every state, we look to win. But at the end of the day, I think we're going to do really well in Wisconsin, we're going to pick up some delegates.

But even if we don't win, I think this is the last place that Ted Cruz has a chance to do well from here and moving forward in the rest of April. Wisconsin only has 40 -- roughly 46 delegates at stake. Moving on the rest of April you got 267, which I think are almost all likely to be ...

LEMON: OK that said let me jump in here, Sarah.

SANDERS: ... it progress for Donald Trump.

LEMON: Hold on, hold on, I let you in. Do you think that it -- would a Wisconsin win for Cruz make a contested convention likely, you think, Sarah?

SANDERS: No, I don't think so because I still think that at this point Donald Trump's the only person that can get to 1,237. And I think by the end of April it will become mathematically impossible for Ted Cruz to get there. And I hope that he'll follow the request that he's made of John Kasich over the last several months and do the right thing and get out of race and clear the path for Donald Trump so that we can set our sides where it needs to be, and that's on Hillary Clinton.

LEMON: OK, Matt, I want you to stand by. Kellyanne, I mean, that was an eye roll, that when she was speaking, you did not agree with that at all.

KELLYANNE CONWAY,"KEEP THE PROMISE" PRESIDENT: No, I love Sarah, but he just increase what we've been hearing this since before the first vote was cast in Iowa caucuses. It was like, oh if he can't win Iowa then where can he win. So then he win Iowa, it was like, whoa he can win New Hampshire, we hear this every single time.

Ladies and gentlemen, Ted Cruz should be coming in third in Wisconsin because Trump's message is basically picked up where Scott Walker left off for their working class folks, fairness. And then you've got John Kasich who's the governor of a neighboring state in Ohio, and he's been in New York all week while in Wisconsin -- while people have been retail politicking across Wisconsin.

So, there's no way to really spin tomorrow if Cruz gets a win. It's a huge win because it's an upper Midwest state, it's different than the other states. And this whole idea that the map never looks good for Cruz, let's respect the voters in the upcoming states. Lot of them, like New York, are not winner-take-all. I think there's going to be a huge media story right here, Don, in our own backyard. Sanders is going to give Hillary a run for her money and her own state. And Cruz and Kasich are going to be challenging Trump.

LEMON: Get Trump around. OK, so I got Matt, what do you make of this? What do you make of Ted Cruz? He's winning right now, at least, but poll-wise, in Wisconsin.

MATT LEWIS, "TOO DUMB TO FAIL" AUTHOR: Yeah, I think he's going to win Wisconsin. There's something Sarah say though that I think she's right about, it interest me. Ted Cruz keeps saying, John Kasich is mathematically -- it's mathematically impossible for John Kasich to win, you know, the delegates so he should get out. Well, guess what? There's probably going to come a time pretty soon when Ted Cruz is mathematically -- it's mathematically impossible for him to be the nominee but he'll still be entirely relevant because it's not about Ted Cruz winning the -- winning outright the delegates, it's about stopping Donald Trump from doing it. That's what it's been for months now. And I think ...

LEMON: So do you think if he's not going to -- if he doesn't win Wisconsin, do you think that, speaking of that magic delegate number 1,237, do you think that this is a contested convention and do you think Donald Trump can get to 1,237 if he doesn't win Wisconsin?

LEWIS: I think Wisconsin is incredibly important. I would venture to say if Trump wins Wisconsin, he gets 1,237.


LEWIS: If Trump does not win Wisconsin, I don't think he gets 1,237.

CONWAY: It's huge. I mean, Wisconsin is really -- you had the segment earlier, the waterloo, it's important for another reason.

LEMON: That waterloo, that bad do you think?

CONWAY: Well, I like ...

LEMON: You like that term.

CONWAY: ... the alliteration, I like the Wisconsin waterloo alliteration. But, Don, seriously speaking, in the upcoming contest, the growth -- if you look at the trend lines, Ted Cruz over performs by 8 to 10 points in the latest public polling in the contest. Donald Trump, his voters get there early and they father themselves to him, they're very loyal, they don't go anywhere. But the growth opportunities of late have not been in the Trump vote, they've been in the non-Trump vote.

LEMON: Yeah, so you speak of trim lines (ph).

SANDERS: But I don't think that works moving forward beyond Wisconsin. I think that's the only place you're seeing any growth for Ted Cruz. I think if you look at some of the next states coming up the rest of April, that's Donald Trump. In fact, I think that Ted Cruz is going to be battling to win second place in a lot of those states and beat John Kasich.

CONWAY: But as you know, if Trump winner-take-all and comes to states ...

SANDERS: Really, really tough road ahead.

CONWAY: ... like New York it goes by congressional district and then you get sort of an extra bit of delegation as you do tomorrow in Wisconsin if you win the state overall. So it's not winner-take-all.

LEMON: You'll admit to this Kellyanne. Your -- Kellyanne and I to speak embrace, you're a geek, you're a nerd.


LEMON: And you think Ted Cruz has a lot of geeks and a lot of nerds because you're talking about, you say, oh here are the trend lines, here the analytics.

[21:45:03] My question is, to both of you, and I ask Kellyanne and you can respond. Do you think that Donald Trump has the ground game that is necessary to win -- not only Wisconsin at this point. But the other primaries possibly or other delegates that may have been missing, like he's going back in Kentucky, do you think that Donald Trump can do that because you have all these geeks and nerds that are looking at all these ways to do things that the Trump campaign may not be doing.

CONWAY: No, Don, if you ask me just a plan to one failing or one deficit of the Trump's campaign it would be that, it would be the lack of infrastructure or ground game, because just this pass weekend Ted Cruz got 18 of the 25 delegates in North Dakota. He got the first six delegates of awarded at the Colorado Convention, that's because of the infrastructure, the data analytics.

I don't think Mr. Trump's deficits are the people around him. I know most of them. The very talented professionals and goodness let's give them their due. Their candidate has been the front-runner for almost a year, practically since the day he announced. But, the thing is you can't create data analytics and ground games and infrastructure overnight. And it's starting to cost him and if do we get to a contested convention, there will be some, I think, hand wringing if not regret over not having the folks in place to go to North Dakota, to Colorado, where it really counted.

LEMON: Sarah, you want to respond to that?

SANDERS: You know, I think that -- I love Kellyanne, I think she does great work, but I think one of the things that they're missing is that we have had a tremendous ground game. You know, our focus hasn't been necessarily on data analytics because this is not what this race is about. It's about bringing voters together and that's something Donald Trump's been able to do.

And, you know, the fact that he has 2 million more votes than Ted Cruz, I think is a big thing to look at. You can't do that if you don't have some type of operation and organization bringing those people together.

Again, I don't mean to be rude but if you look at the scoreboard here, Donald Trump is significantly further ahead than any other candidate. And again, you can't accomplish that if you don't have an operation, a team, a ground game working together to win those states and bring those delegates to the table.

LEMON: All right, I've got to go to break. So stay with me, everyone, hold your thoughts because I know you're raring to get in.

When we come right back Donald Trump has a rocky relationship with women voters, but does he have a plan to turn things around there's a question?


[21:51:10] LEMON: When voter's maybe the key to this campaign, will that be bad news for Donald Trump?

Back with me now, Sarah Huckabee Sanders and Kellyanne Conway and Matt Lewis. OK. Matt, I want to ask you about this before we get to the women thing. Both Trump and Cruz, they want Kasich to drop out but he's determined to stay in. Should he quit?

LEWIS: No. I think Ted Cruz should be encouraging John Kasich to stay in the race and go to Pennsylvania and try to win in Pennsylvania. I've been saying this for months now. I think this is the way it's not about, you know, Ted Cruz is not going to get to 1,237. Like, if he doesn't know that maybe I'll just tell him that. Its not it didn't happening. Ted Cruz will not get to 1,237. But that doesn't matter. You've got to stop Donald Trump from getting it.

CONAWAY: He made in Cleveland.

LEWIS: And I think that -- Ted Cruz very well might emerge from a contested convention as the nominee.

LEMON: OK. So then who does it hurt? It is fair to say that it's hurting one candidate more than the other? Because he has every right to stay in the race for hurting Donald Trump or he is hurting Cruz more Matt. LEWIS: I think that Trump doesn't like it because he has finally caught on to the fact that Kasich could pick up some, you know, could win Pennsylvania, could pickup some counties. They could go to New York and Trump wins New York but Ted Cruz picks up delegates by winning some counties. John Kasich wins some counties and it's just depriving him of the delegates he needs. So I think he's onto that.

LEMON: OK. Kellyanne, Donald Trump's numbers of women and an all- time low. Is this leave an opening you think for Ted Cruz?

CONWAY: Well it does and there is a Republican poll out today by a firm that has work for Donald Trump in the past that (inaudible) are very respective pollsters where Donald Trump's favorability ratings among -- unfavorability rating women is 68 percent. And Hillary is at 58 percent.

And so there is a presumption that Trump has a terrible numbers among women and therefore Hillary gets walking way she has a big problem among man particularly white man. They don't like her, they dislike her, they distrust here and the don't her to be president or commander-in-chief.

Trump, his all-time ratings with women being low, it's a combination of the rallies in Chicago rally and it's really its also re-tweeting the picture of Heidi Cruz for which he has apologize or at least that regret it.

LEMON: She said it was a real turning for a lot of people.

CONWAY: It wasn't investigated they don't show maxi (ph) which is mean. And people don't look at that as visionary, they see just as vicious. So, could he turn it around in a general election if he's a nominee? Absolutely. He hasn't taken the swipes at Hillary yet. And she is I mean ...

LEMON: Do you think Cruz is doing enough though to get the women voters who don't like Donald Trump.

CONWAY: Well, he certainly tries in Wisconsin. So, Wisconsin stands alone tomorrow and that's going to be a huge test in many ways. But one of them is, has Cruz's new strategy to be out there with his mom, who we haven't seen much of, Eleanor and his wife Heidi and of course Carly Fiorina at a big women for Cruz event in Wisconsin last week. It went a very well in his favorability rating among women in Wisconsin is higher than it's been practically any state.

LEMON: So, Sarah, what's the plan then for Trump to turn this around the gain more support from women?

SANDERS: You know, I think it's exactly what Kellyanne was just talking about. I think once we move into the general election, where I think Donald Trump will be the nominee and you suck up his numbers against Hillary, he's in a really good position and I think, as he starts focusing on that general election, you're going to see his numbers with women improve. Look, I'm a wife, I'm a mom and I'm one of millions of women across these countries that are supporting Donald Trump. Women at the end of the day care about a lot of the same things that men do despite the fact that nobody wants to talk about that. We want to know, is the economy going to be better, is our country going to be safe and are we going to be able to provide a better future for our kids and that is something that I think Donald Trump is speaking to that a lot of people aren't listening to.

LEMON: Sarah, I have to ask you, though ...


LEMON: ... because him saying, you know, if I had to do it all over again I wouldn't re-tweet that picture. It is obviously that obviously hurt him. That was a real turning point to a lot of and as Kellyanne says, many people just saw it as mean.

[21:55:02] So do you think that?

SANDERS: And I think he saw that, too, and that's why he's come out and, you know, has since said, if he had to do it over again, he wouldn't do it.

CONWAY: Why doesn't he say I'm sorry? Why doesn't he apologize? I know he told Anderson Cooper last Tuesday in the CNN forum, I can't remember the last time he and apologized. But, why he just say I'm sorry, people like that they like to see humility.

LEMON: Sarah?

SANDERS: Yeah. And I think that was, you know, the goal in what he was going for in his response, the last 24 hours saying that he wouldn't have said that and he would take it back if he could.

LEWIS: You know, what the problem though I think is, is that he will make this mistake again because he can't not do this. Because I think Donald Trump has a problem with strong women. It could be Megyn Kelly, Rosie O'Donnell, Heidi Cruz and I think that it will be an issue and I think Hillary Clinton can exploit it. I think that Trump is going to drive turn out if he's the nominee for Hillary as well as for Trump.

And, you know, almost anything that Trump could say, like if he says, you know, Hillary, with the e-mails, I think you're a criminal, she says, well, you know, your campaign manager was arrested for battery of a woman. I mean it seems like this is going to be an issue that doesn't go away because I think Donald Trump has a problem with women.

LEMON: To be continued. I'm sorry. Quickly, Sarah?


LEMON: No. Go ahead. Real quick.

SANDERS: I think that's absolutely patently false. I mean again, look at the people around them he's employed women at the highest level possible ...

LEWIS: But they work for him.

LEMON: I got to go guys.

LEWIS: They work for him. He doesn't like women who challenge him. He's OK with the employing.

LEMON: I've got to get to the top of the hour on time we're on a big trouble. Thank you, I appreciate it. We'll continue this conversation.

When we come back, the Donald Trump's re-tweet. Comparing Heidi Cruz and Melania Trump first time with voters. I guess we know that. We know what "Saturday Night Live" things about that.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was an accident. OK? Because Donald's pants are just so big, he can't see every little tweet his fingers re- tweet.