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Donald Trump Accusing Ted Cruz of Gestapo Tactics; Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton Facing Off Before the New York Primary. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired April 11, 2016 - 23:00   ET



[23:00:00] SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is a campaign which in the last CNN national poll was ahead of Trump by 20 points.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: A lot of what you're hearing from Trump and Cruz is not only offensive, it's dangerous.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Take a look at Bernie Sanders, OK, you can have him, I don't want him. I don't want him. But take a look at Bernie Sanders, running against, you talk about liars, I think Hillary might be worse than ted.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald has been yelling and scream in screaming, a lot of whining, I'm sure some cursing, and some late night fever tweeting.


DON LEMON, CNN HOST: And meanwhile, John Kasich right here on CNN, along with his family answering some tough questions in our town hall tonight.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Do you need to up your game in terms of reaching out to delegates?

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're reaching out, Anderson, all over. And, you know, it's a bizarre process. I'm not really in the middle of it because I have got to prepare for people like you and I get out and do town halls and all the things that I do, but yes, we have --

COOPER: Do you need to focus more?

KASICH: Yes, that's what we are focusing on.

COOPER: Why would a delegate pick you if the only state you've won is Ohio?

KASICH: Let's see how many delegates we accumulate. But why would you pick somebody who can't win in the fall? Let me tell you the stakes are. I believe if you pick these other guys, you're not only going to lose the White House, you will lose the court, you will lose the United States Senate and you can lose a lot --

COOPER: Why can't Ted Cruz win?

KASICH: Because they're too divisive. They are too negative. Look at how their negatives are, their negative ratings. And it's very hard to turn negatives around.

COOPER: One of the Cruz's Michigan delegates is suggesting essentially you're auditioning to be Trump's vice president. In fact, Trump in an interview in "USA Today" said that he likes you, likes Marco Rubio, and kind of named you in a list of people, he might even consider for vice president.

KASICH: You're asking me if I would be his vice president.

COOPER: Would you?


COOPER: Absolutely not?

KASICH: Zero, I'm not anybody's vice president. I would be the worst vice president the country ever saw. You know why? Because I'm not like a vice president. I'm a president.

Our goal, I think, as a party is to beat Hillary, I think. So wouldn't you pick somebody that can beat Hillary rather than somebody who loses to her all the time? And wouldn't you also want to pick somebody who actually has the record and the experience of accomplishment to be president? I mean, that's not a radical idea.


LEMON: We're going to hear more from John Kasich and other candidates.

But let's bring in now Sara Murray with the Trump campaign in Albany, New York, and Sunlen Serfaty. She is following the Cruz campaign. She is in Irvine, California now.

Sunlen, I want to start with you because you out in California tonight with the Cruz campaign. Donald Trump and his campaign surrogates have been accusing him of buying delegates and using quote "gestapo tactics," unquote (INAUDIBLE). What's Cruz's reaction?

SUNLEN SERFATY, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Senator Cruz, Don, in his campaign are really pushing back hard on those allegations and casting it instead is Donald Trump trying to distract from what they say is his failures to organization and to learn the somewhat complicated delegate rules in this process.

We really saw Senator Cruz really lay into that hard today on the campaign trail on Donald Trump, bringing up specifically Colorado where the Cruz campaign was able to scoop up all of those delegates over the weekend. And Ted Cruz just moments ago in San Diego brought that up again after repeatedly doing some today on the campaign trail and he said look, just check out Donald Trump's response to all of that. Here's what he had to say.


CRUZ: Look, as we know in the state of California, wine is something best served with cheese. And Donald has this very odd thing. So Colorado, he's been on TV all day long, saying Colorado was terrible. They stole the election. Donald, 65,000 people voted in the state of Colorado. They just didn't vote for you, they voted for our campaign. Or to put it more simply, Donald, it isn't stealing when the voters vote against you. It is the voters reclaiming this country and reclaiming sanity.


SERFATY: So Ted Cruz there really mocking and taunting Donald Trump's reactions to what happened in Colorado and his response to delegate process writ-large. Cruz also starting on his official twitter account tonight, the hashtag, whining is not winning. So clearly really trying to capitalize on this moment.

LEMON: So Sunlen, you know, we are just eight days away from the New York primary, 95 delegates at stake. So what's Cruz doing in California?

[23:05:08] SERFATY: That is a very good question because it's primary here and California is not for months. It is actually the last primary on the calendar, not until June. So clearly Ted Cruz kind of looking ahead, holding his first big rally here today. He said, you know, California could be pivotal. He told the voters here that they could haven an important role in determining the nominee of the party.

But certainly the Cruz campaign being on California turf today of all days, really is intended to not only send a message that yes, they are looking ahead and in for the long haul, but also to try to broadcast and put on display their organizational muscle. The fact that they are already on the ground here in California. That intended clearly to draw a big contrast with other campaigns.

LEMON: All right. Sunlen, stand by.

Sara, I want to bring you in. Now, you are following the Trump campaign. He held a big rally tonight in Albany. What's he telling his supporters at that rally tonight?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: That's right, Don. Essentially, his message to his supporters tonight was the game is rigged and we need to change it.

Look. Donald Trump is having a moment of reckoning within his campaign. He won a number of his primaries. And he is leading in the delegate count. But in this sort of behind the scenes whiling and dealing. The things that happen in Colorado with the convention, the things that happen in Louisiana where you're sort of selecting these delegates behind the scenes. The Trump campaign has not been strong on this front. Take a listen to what he had to say tonight.


TRUMP: It's a corrupt system. It's a totally corrupt, rigged system. You know, I give the example, in Louisiana, which I was not supposed to win, in Louisiana, I went there, I campaigned for four or five days, we had rallies just like this, thousands and thousands of people, I end up winning Louisiana. And then when everything is done, I find out I get less dell gaits than this guy that the go his ass kicked, OK, give me a break. Really disgusting.

So it's a very sick system. And I'll tell you what, maybe in addition to winning, maybe we'll clean up the system so that in future years, we can have an honest contest, we might be able to clean up this dirty, rotten, disgusting system.


MURRAY: Now, despite Donald Trump's colorful language there, he won narrowly over ted Cruz in Louisiana. But the reality is Ted Cruz is more organized on the ground there. And if it does come to a second ballot, he could be in a better position to defeat Donald Trump. That's why the Trump campaign is working so hard to show up in Cleveland with 1,237 delegates. So that it does not become a contested by then.

LEMON: So Sara, you know, here's what the latest polls, this is a FOX News poll. It is Trump with a double digit lead in New York, and in Pennsylvania, but he is still complaining, you know, about Ted Cruz. I mean, what's Donald Trump saying tonight about this delegate fight?

MURRAY: Well, I think the reality is that the Trump campaign and Donald Trump know it's going to be a narrow path to get to 1,237. Yes, he is leading in New York, but they want to get all 95 delegates here. That's a tough they think to do. The other thing is when you get to Pennsylvania, even if he is leading in the public opinion polls, a number of those delegates are unbound. So they are going to have to get better about winning over these unbound delegates, many of whom who will be party activists. You know, not necessarily the kind of people that Donald Trump has endeared himself to over the course of this campaign. And I think that's really the sort of recalibration his campaign is going through. They are trying to figure out what can we do to get to 1,237 by the time we get to Cleveland. And I think part of that message is saying look, this process is unfair. He should pick the nominee who wins the most votes and, you know, hoping you can continue to encourage people to show up at the polls for you and that'll make enough of a difference even with unbound delegated that you can essentially convince them that they should be on your team, because that's what the people want by the time you get to Cleveland.

LEMON: Sara, Sunlen, thank you. Thanks to both of you. Appreciate that. And here they are, my political dream team. Just look around. They

need no introduction, except for one guy, but hang on. He is trying to talk right now. Can I introduce you please, Michael Nutter, the former mayor of Philadelphia and a Hillary supporter, CNN political commentator Kayleigh McEnany and who is also a Trump support. CNN's Mark Preston is here. Also political commentators Margaret Hoover and Bob Beckle, the guy who's trying to talk over everyone. And Kellyanne Conway, president of -- I'm trying to introduce someone. President of Kick the promise one pact, a super PAC supporting Ted Cruz. What, what?


LEMON: You heard Donald Trump saying this is a dirty, rotten process, do you agree with that?

BECKEL: That's why I hired Paul Manafort. It is going to get real dirty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That didn't work. They spent more time on TV this week learning the rules. So they really should learn the rules.

[23:10:02] MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: This delegate process that he is crying that is so unfair, actually NBC did a really good analysis about this. Trump has won 45 percent of the delegates in this entire process, but he has only won 37 percent of the popular vote, all right. This delegate math situation is actually benefitting him. OK. So I mean, so it's not all that unfair. He does have to get smarter about the rules.

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Extremely unfair, because here's the thing, as Sara just reported, most of these delegates, many of them are local party leaders, they are Republican Party people, and I wish the Republican Party would pay attention to CNN exit polls because everything will one finds in the Wisconsin for example, 50 percent of voters were trade by the Republican Party.

LEMON: OK. I'm glad you bring up the polls.

This is for Mark Preston. This is the new "Wall Street Journal" Marist poll, OK, NBC poll. It shows that Trump has a crushing lead in New York, 54 percent, OK, Kasich 21, Cruz, 18, same poll shows 69 percent, Mark, primary voters think whoever has the most delegates going to the convention, which is what Donald Trump's campaign has been saying in him as well, should get the nomination. Do you think Republicans across the board agree with that?

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: I think that they don't understand the system, quite frankly. And whether you like the system or you don't like the system, you are actually is a system. But I think something that Donald Trump said was very, very important. If you want to look smart tomorrow morning, this is what you seize upon if you're a political junkie. He says maybe if I get in, maybe I will change the system. I will try to change the system.

Now, the Democrats tried to do that back in 2008. Barack Obama and his team try to change the super delegate system because it did not work to their advantage. He very much ran a grassroots campaign. He was able to overcome the super delegate situation, right. The Hillary Clinton people stopped and asked him to be the people. The question is after this election cycle, are we going to see the Democrats and are we going to see the Republicans try to revamp their system?


LEMON: One of his spokesman said that. Saying the same thing.

MCENANY: Don, to your point, nationally it is the same way, because the Monmouth poll showed 56 percent of Republican voters say that whoever has the most delegates should in fact be the nominee. Likewise, a poll in New York showed 58 percent of voters across the board Republicans --.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we hope it doesn't rain tomorrow.

MCENANY: They don't think the rules are fair.


MICHAEL NUTTER (D), FORMER MAYOR OF PHILADELPHIA: Waste for the Democrats. I'm not as delegate on the Republican side. Super delegates represent about 15 percent --

LEMON: You are.

NUTTER: And I am a super delegate. Represent about 15 percent of all the delegates. We have our chairman, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, was on TV just the other day on CNN talking about the last - any number of elections have all been decided by the pledged delegates, the super delegates had no impact on those races. So I mean, the candidates and their campaigns know the rules, 15 plus states, whatever they are, it is what it is. Adjust to it.


Just figure it out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. This time it benefits Hillary Clinton.

NUTTER: You know, this is not a reality TV show. And the delegates are not, you know, your employees and you just fire people. He likes, especially Mr. Trump, when he is winning, everything is fantastic, I'm great, we're great, polls are great, et cetera, et cetera. When things don't go his way, this system is this, the system is that, and he and senator Sanders are starting to sound alike.

LEMON: You have said the rules have been this way. You said for the party for at least for decades.

BECKEL: (INAUDIBLE). The other this is this is the way it has been. People fight this every four years. Mayor, you and I know that there are (INAUDIBLE) are chosen. They are going to be delegates going there. That there are going to be (INAUDIBLE). Oh by the way, if you're a candidate, you know, because that's what happens. They get up there. I've been to these things and it is smoke-filled, to this day.

MCENANY: But that is not an argument, Bob. The fact that it has been around forever falls on deaf ears because the American voters want someone to look at them to explain why is the candidate with the most votes being disenfranchised and it's how they get an explanation for why the rules are fair and just. They are going to rebel against the rules.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But Kayleigh, an important question is why didn't the Trump campaign figure this out in April and not last August?

MCENANY: This is not about anyone figuring anything out. It's about the rules being fundamentally unfair and the voters saying that. And I wish the party would listen to their voters because that's why we're in this scenario. That's why Trump is doing so well because the voters don't like the rule. They don't like the party. They think it is fundamentally --.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He could have this wrapped up a month ago.

HOOVER: I mean, that is the point of Kayleigh making is only going to end up emboldening the Trump people and pulling the Trump support and making the convention even more of a mess (INAUDIBLE) because part of the animist (ph) towards this is the system is broken, Washington isn't representing me and now the Republican party rules, which they didn't know the rules, but those rules aren't representing them either, and they're not representing that because that's not meant to be the point.

LEMON: Yes. I think we can all agree that is going to embolden the Trump -- everything that, you know, emboldens the Trump's voters, right. Any time there's some (INAUDIBLE) about something he said, it just makes them stronger.

As we count down in New York's primary just days away, make sure you stay with CNN for town halls with all the GOP candidates and their families. Anderson Cooper hosts Donald Trump, Melania Trump, and his children, Ivanka, Eric and Donald Jr. That is tomorrow night starting at 9:00.

And then Ted Cruz and wife Heidi, Heidi Cruz takes center stage on Wednesday, also starting at 9:00, we're going to top it off with our Brooklyn Democratic debate between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, that's Thursday night at 9:00.

And then we are going to tap it all off with our Brooklyn Democratic Debate between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. That's Thursday night at 9:00. What?

[23:15:10] BECKEL: I won't understand a word.

HOOVER: Accent.

BECKEL: Trump sounds more New York than I've ever heard him.

LEMON: Because he is campaigning in New York. They all do.

BECKEL: Get your hands off my cup.

LEMON: Everybody does it.

Stick around, everybody. When we come right back, John Kasich goes face to face with a protester and what happens next may surprise you.


[23:19:01] LEMON: At s a weekend rally in Rochester, New York, John Kasich was interrupted by a group of disability right's activists who were determined to get his attention, here it is.


KASICH: No, no, no, just let me back her and let just - let me speak. Let me just tell you -- don't be angry at me because you don't nose what I have done. The single biggest increase in my budget in the state of Ohio was to help the disabled.


LEMON: After the rally was over, Kasich met directly with the protester.


KASICH: Do you know why I want to do this? Because Jesus wants me to. Do you think that I'm going to die here and go up there and the big guy's going to ask me, the Lord's going to ask me what did you do? And I'm going to say, well, I didn't do anything, I was just too busy.


LEMON: Well, Michelle Fridley was one of those protesters and she joins me now to talk about what governor Kasich had to say.

Thank you, Miss Michelle, for joining us here on CNN. How are you?


LEMON: So, you were protesting for the right of the disabled to be integrated into their communities. So those who need long-term services won't be discriminated against. John Kasich came back to meet with you and he talked about his commitment I should say to your issues in very strong terms, are you satisfied with what he had to say?

FRIDLEY: No. Absolutely not. I felt I was met with broken promises. He promised me that his top guy would call me and I haven't heard anything. You know, we just really want to know will he endorse the disability immigration act. We want to know that from all our candidates and it's something he's avoiding. He still hasn't let the disability community know whether he's going to endorse the disability immigration act.

LEMON: How are you treated at the Kasich rally?

FRIDLEY: Not treated well. I felt very discriminated against. He knew ahead of time we were coming. We waited out. We were the first in line. We waited out in the freezing cold, 7:00 in the morning, the doors open at 10:30. We were the first ones in. And we were escorted to the back of the gym, the auditorium there where he was. We were standing room only where thousands of people stood in between us and wheelchairs. We couldn't see him. We saw nothing but people in front of us.

And I know -- he knew ahead of time we were coming. You know, put us in a place where we weren't seen or and couldn't be heard from. And, you know, we had to make our voices heard, you know. We want to know does he support the disability immigration act. We to want know that from all the candidate.

LEMON: Are you going to keep up the protest?

FRIDLEY: Absolutely. We want to know where our future president, you know, lies on this. And it's important for the disability community to know which candidate's going to support us. We need to get out of nursing homes. There are people stuck in nursing homes.

Kasich, the things that he has done to limit and cut spending for people with disabilities in Ohio.

LEMON: What about the other candidates? Are you going to keep up protests with them? Are you OK with what they are doing?

FRIDLEY: Bernie Sanders has already cosponsored the disability immigration act and Hillary Clinton supports that also.

LEMON: What about Cruz and Trump?

FRIDLEY: We have reached out to them. We haven't heard anything back from them. We are going to see which candidates are going to have our back and free the people from nursing homes.

LEMON: Michelle Fridley, thank you. We appreciate you joining us.

FRIDLEY: Thank you very much.

LEMON: Thank you.

Yes. Back with me now the political dream team. What did you say you have to give her credit for what?

BECKEL: Kasich made that little bit of TV, that kid who could worry about jobs and hug him. He did that, it was about a month ago. Going back and meeting these people is the right thing to do. He is the Republican version of Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton would never -- if he ever saw anybody who was in the trouble, he would go and talk to them. But it was a message. And Kasich just did that.

LEMON: I mean, you know, he is supposed to be the kinder, gentler candidate, as Bob referenced it, you know, hugging or whatever. Why do you think, Margaret, wasn't happy with his response tonight?

HOOVER: Well, I mean, I can't speak out for the protester. What I can tell you is John Kasich actually in his town hall that has actually spoken about the physically disabled. And he said that they don't have any advocates, they don't have any lobby that people like him have to stand up for them. So it's not like this is, you know, I think if somebody were just tuning in, they might think that John Kasich had a bad record on disability, and I think that's not the case at all. There are protesters as we all know at every single one of the events. There is always somebody to can get attention for their issue. And so, you know, and they should. LEMON: That's their right.

Do you think we would see Donald Trump treat protesters the same way because he does not used in meet with protesters? I mean, --.

HOOVER: Get him out, get him out.

MCENANY: Tried to beat down his door. I have seen this on the air, beat down the door to get into his rally. They have blockaded roads to get into his events. This are not -- this woman came like she had - yes, a woman like this who clearly was very rational, very logical in what she wanted to achieve, yes, I do. But I think the protesters that he has had to try to stop to keep peace at his rallies are very different in quality and in quantity really than this fine lady.

LEMON: They are there to disrupt.

MCENANY: Yes. There are many advocators. She was there to be heard, yes.

PRESTON: You know what? This point in time in a campaign does give us the opportunity to see someone like this woman come out and try to get her voice heard. Otherwise, we're not going to hear this woman's voice. We're not going to hear -- I would have never known about that to be perfectly honest. I'm not sure anyone else on this panel, you know, maybe except for Margaret, right, that you've talked about it. But would be really tuned into this issue.

But what we are seeing though, unfortunately, is that we are seeing tensions get a little too high. Not only on the Republican side, but the Democratic side as well. And the temperature does need to be lowered just a little bit.

[23:25:18] BECKEL: Worse every week.

LEMON: As a Democrat, Mayor, when you see, you know, Kasich reaching out to people like that, as a democrat, do you say you know what we could do worse in this guy.

NUTTER: What I say is he did the right thing as a candidate, as an elected official. More important than that, as a human being. If you can take that moment, which may be the most critical thing going on with that individual or the group, take the time. Everyone should at least be heard. And little less politics, little more humanity would actually be able to get things done in this country.

LEMON: To Mark's point, though, about taking it down a notch when you see the protesters who interrupted the former president last week and you see this, and then it is, you know, can we -- do we need to take it down a notch when it comes to --?

BECKEL: Yes. I mean, let's just be realistic about this. Numbers are going to get bigger. When we used to do protests at convention, we drive around in buses.

LEMON: The closer we get -



LEMON: Stay with me everyone, when we come back, why Donald Trump says the process to avoid delegates is corrupt. Just house messy could this convention get?


[23:30:26] COOPER: Donald Trump is complaining loudly about the process the GOP uses to award delegates calling it corrupt.

Back with me now, my political dream team.

So Bob, you heard, you know, the talk about the gestapo tactics, the charges and the counter charges about stealing delegates, bribing delegates. Do you think the system is corrupt?

BECKEL: Hell yes. I mean, I have been involved in it for a long time. I can't imagine --


BECKEL: OK. You got Paul Manafort, please. He hires Paul Manafort, good idea. Because Paul knows how to do every trick there is. In the meantime, Roger Stone is outside. And he used the word gestapo. That used to be a word that you never would touch it. Not New York particularly.

HOOVER: I think Ted Cruz won these delegates fair and square.

KELLYANNE CONWAY, KEEP THE PROMISE 1 PAC SUPPORTING TED CRUZ: Bob, how can he not? He showed up at the Colorado convention. The other two candidates didn't show up. And Mr. Trump just week admitted he had no idea that if you want won a state meant that somehow you weren't going to get the delegates that you want.

BECKEL: The first candidate understands the rules.

CONWAY: Good. That's important if you want to be president. LEMON: This process is corrupt, mayor?

NUTTER: It is complicated.

CONWAY: Thank you. Thank you, Mayor.

NUTTER: It is a complicated process that people who are actively engaged and involved in politics, for the most part understand it. All of us could probably do a better job explaining it to the voters as to what that is about. Because you remember, Don, when the campaign started, everything was about states and votes and votes, and a couple times, I did mention, you know, they're really kind of two races going on here. The voters can go, they do what they do and then the delegates. And more and more, we see the conversation flipping there. More and more discussion about delegates.

So you talk about where we are in the race. And the tone up tone down. Bob said it is going to get tighter, the stakes become higher, the candidates are tiring of each other and they're recognizing at some point in time and different version of musical chairs, someone's not going to have a seat.

LEMON: Right.

MCENANY: And they're realizing that the system is corrupt. At least, you know, Donald Trump voters are. I think if we could all extract ourselves and our personal loyalties from this situation, corrupt, corrupt.

CONWAY: Define corrupt.

MCENANY: Delegates can be bribed. I guarantee you if you pulled every -- it would probably be 80 percent of people watching would agree that you should not be able to bribe delegates, bribe your way to a nomination.

CONWAY: Is that what happened in Colorado?

MCENANY: The fact that that is a theoretical possibility in the Republican primary is beyond means.

CONWAY: Is that why new people were hired?

LEMON: There's been a lot of explanation (ph) as well about super Pac. Right?

HOOVER: A little different. Fair point which is that there are no rules governing --

LEMON: I'm trying to move on here. I'm trying to move on now.

BECKEL: We're just talking about production.

LEMON: Come here, you want to stand here?

BECKEL: Sure. LEMON: Anderson asked John Kasich about his ad that ran on his

behalf. Take a look.


COOPER: Super Pac released an ad than ran Saturday in New York City and Pennsylvania, I want to just take a listen to it and ask you about it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Told by his father, he was anointed by God to obtain a powerful position, said women should be punished for having an abortion, once to register Muslims, police their neighborhoods wouldn't rule out using nuclear weapons against Europe. That the best we can do? No, it's not.

John Kasich, stable, presidential.

COOPER: Saying you are stable. With us, (INAUDIBLE).

KASICH: Well, I don't like that ad.

COOPER: You don't.

KASICH: I have told my campaign people. I can't communicate with those folks.

COOPER: Legally.

KASICH: But I don't like that. I don't like the song. I don't like what it represents.

COOPER: You are not saying you don't like Patsi Clyne.

KASICH: I love Patsi Clyne.

COOPER: The song in that context.

KASICH: But, no. I don't like it. I thought you know, I objected to some of what they've done a couple times here.

COOPER: Yes. We talked about that.

KASICH: Because you know, I don't want to take the low road to the highest office in the land and I haven't. And frankly, that's why until about a month ago, people didn't know who I was.

COOPER: Do you think if you have been more aggressive, more negative.

KASICH: I would have got a lot more attention because all the debates were about who can you smear? Who do you yell at? Who do you insult? And then you get a sound byte the next day, guess what he said about them? You know, and I wasn't going to do that because that is not who I am.

And so, Anderson, we operated in obscurity. Didn't have the money other people have, but guess what, I'm still standing. You know, we're like the little engine that can.


LEMON: So, as you're a fan of super Pac, right?


CONWAY: One that Senator Cruz has never said has embarrassed him or that he like --.

LEMON: But is that staying above the fray?

HOOVER: I'm sorry, Governor Kasich to answer?


CONWAY: It is, John, but governor Kasich also said he wishes the super Pac would take down that ad and that they wouldn't run ads like that. So let's see if the super Pac follows the very specific request to do so. Right.

PRESTON: And they will not.

BECKEL: They don't get distribution.

CONWAY: Mine doesn't. There's no way. We can't violate SEC law, of course we don't. But no, you have to know your candidate. You get direction by watching with the candidate doesn't says. And there are two functions of the super Pac as we see it. First of all we took a gamble. We ran our super Pac very differently. These model super Pac has select check after check after check ran ad after ad after. We hired ground game in Ohio. We did digital. We did direct mail. We do a lot of touch the voter activity and we are still standing. Right to rise, conservative solution gives billions of dollars. Their candidates are way out of the race.

LEMON: Touch the voter activities. What does that mean?

CONWAY: Sure. Rallies, we pay for some of the rallies, we do direct mail, do we get out the vote, phone calling, in addition to broadcast and cable, a lot of ads on talk radio, Don, because Ted Cruz is the original grassroots candidates. That's how these voters known. He's only been in the Senate for three years.

BECKEL: If you believe that John Kasich's campaign did not see that ad before it hit the air --

CONWAY: I'm against Kasich winning the nomination than Senator Cruz, but that's unfair to the professionals.

BECKEL: Wait a minute.

CONWAY: They coordinate. Saying they broke the law.

BECKEL: It happens all the time.

CONWAY: No, it's very serious charge. I know these guys involved.

HOOVER: To be fair, I run a super Pac, Kellyanne runs a super Pac. I don't know if you run a super Pac. But I know you were in the game, citizens united, people have been in the game understand that if you have a super Pac, you cannot coordinate with a candidate committee. That is totally against the law. And so, the way these people end up communicating is by having a press release and having the press write about it. Everything is communicated, but they don't show them ads before they run.

Here's the thing. The reason you have a candidate super Pac or candidate super Pac and do this is to run negative ads against your opponent. Negative campaigning works. Nobody likes to do it. The candidates don't like to do it. But super Pacs can come in, this is where outside money comes and they can run negative ads against candidates they're running against and then the other candidate has possible deniability because they actually weren't coordinating with that payment.


LEMON: It's complicated. This is very complicated. This is pretty easy.

Stay with me everyone, the Democrats going to take center stage in our CNN Brooklyn debate Thursday night. And they're mixing it up on the campaign trail tonight, but is John Kasich the Republican with the best chance to beat them? That's the question.


[23:41:47] LEMON: Things are getting pretty tense between Hillary and Bernie Sanders ahead of our CNN Brooklyn debate.

Back with me now, my political dream team.

So Bob, tonight in Albany, Trump had some harsh words finish Hillary Clinton. He called her guilty as hell. Let's listen.


TRUMP: I don't think the emails will take her down because she's being protected by the Democrats. It would take anybody else down, but it's not going to take her down because she's being protected by the Democrats which is a disgrace. But she's going is to have to live with that when she runs because everybody knows that she is guilty as hell. OK. Everybody.

Her whole life has been a big, fat, beautiful lie. It has been a terrible, terrible lie. Everything about her is a lie.


LEMON: Wow. What do you think?

BECKEL: Well, it's what they thought about O.J. Simpson as a matter of fact. Hillary Clinton picks up her pitch against Trump and against what your guy's name, Cruz? It's just happens then. They're going to start staking out the general election stuff, and Hillary Clinton is over Trump which isn't hard to do.

CONWAY: This is what Trump should have kept doing. And somehow when he was in mid-December, I could tell you as a Cruz super Pac person, mid-December Trump was at his best. The Cruz supporters loved it. No, but he took off four months doing other things. And I think picking on Hillary is what the base wants to hear.

BECKEL: Nobody better than Trump to change the political dialogue.

NUTTER: I think it proves that Donald Trump is a, worried about Hillary Clinton, and b, demonstrates why we need a very strong and well-tested candidate on the Democratic side to take on Donald Trump in the general.

LEMON: Hillary Clinton has shifted her focus and released a new attack ad on Donald Trump. Listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He says we should punish women who have abortions.

TRUMP: There has to be a form of punishment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That Mexicans who come to America are rapists. And that we should ban Muslims from coming here at all.

TRUMP: Total and complete shutdown.

CLINTON: Donald Trump says we can solve America's problems by turning against each other, it's wrong, and it goes against everything New York and America stands for.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With so much at stake, she's the one tough enough to stop Trump. Hillary Clinton.

CLINTON: I'm Hillary Clinton and I approve this message.


LEMON: So is this where the battle begins from New York between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump? Is that what this is?

NUTTER: Certainly a part of it. But Hillary Clinton also knows she's in the Democratic primary. So, you know, it's a battle for every vote in New York in the Democratic primary, but she has to anticipate the possibility, a, that she could be the party's nominee and b, anticipate who the Republicans are going to put up and it looks like, for the moment, Donald Trump will be the candidate. So he is getting ready.

BECKEL: Have you ever seen somebody use a first on the other party in the midst of the heavy intense primary for somebody else, bring in somebody to attack him like that? I mean, I think that was a dangerous ad. Dangerous, dangerous.

CONWAY: Bernie Sanders got into her head, because she probably wants Donald Trump to be the nominee, why attack him now?

LEMON: Well, that's my question because he has called her qualifications into question then he, you know, he walked it back. But still now, you know --

CONWAY: He is also winning these contests.


HOOVER: I just think it's incredibly pertinent and relevant that she's not going after the person she's running against. She is going after Donald Trump. Why is she doing that? Because Bernie Sanders still presents a really significant problem for her. The left loves him. There are really fishers and fault lines that are beginning to form in the Democratic Party. Millennials, it's shocking the number of millennials, African-American millennials prefer Bernie Sanders to Hillary Clinton. You know, Latinos, you know, 13 percent did like.

Maybe they'll come back, but these are impending fault lines in the Democratic Party I think at we'll see again probably in four years. But she can't run against Bernie. That will hurt her.

PRESTON: I agree.

NUTTER: Well, still a Democratic Party, so she does have to run --

HOOVER: But the ads against Trump --

NUTTER: I understand it. She has been talking about Donald Trump for some time. Hillary Clinton is also demonstrating that she can actually do more than one thing at a time. There is going to be a Democratic primary and there's going to be a general election. She's actually doing before.

MCENANY: So this is before. And I think this is very dangerous. She hasn't been questioned by Bernie Sanders at least about her emails in the Clinton foundation. There are all these untested the things that Bernie Sanders will not bring up. And I can guarantee you Donald Trump will. The Republican Party, all the good, bad, ugly coming out --


MCENANY: Not by him. He holds back.

PRESTON: Meanwhile, the ad is important for two reasons (INAUDIBLE). First thing is that she's got to prove to the liberal base that she will go after Donald Trump or whoever the nominee is. That's one. But more importantly, and Margaret touched upon this, is that it doesn't pit her against Bernie Sanders in this primary fight that is getting ugly that she does not want to divide and alienate those liberal board. That's why it's important. BECKEL: This stage of game, doesn't look to have you bring it

together. And the Democrats got a hell of a lot easier time coming together behind Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders in the Republican.

NUTTER: And doing two things at one time. Trying to keep the Democrats focused on winning in November, we'll take on Donald Trump and I'm the person to do it. That's the message right now.

PRESTON: But by stepping a fight with Bernie Sanders.

HOOVER: He's totally in her head, Bernie Sanders.

PRESTON: Why would you want to do that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because. Talk about a process, Bernie Sanders -


LEMON: Hang on.


LEMON: It's very easy. All I have to do is this. We'll be right back.


[23:51:10] LEMON: All right. We are back now with my political dream team.

I want to continue talking about the Democrats.

Mark Preston, this is for you, latest NBC News/"Wall Street Journal" Marist poll, Clinton is crushing Sanders 55 percent to 41 percent. That's among likely Democratic voters, primary voters. Is that enough time for Bernie Sanders to make this up?

PRESTON: You know, I don't necessarily think that Bernie Sanders has to win New York or -- look, he probably won't win New York. But the way the Democrats are apportioning delegates, it's not going to matter. Just like Bernie Sanders has won seven over the last eight, but yet the delegate total has been about the same.

But this is what is important. That's why Bernie Sanders shouldn't get out of the race. Bernie Sanders goes and he holds rallies, and 10,000 people show up. Bernie Sanders goes, 5,000 people show up, 15,000 people show up. Bernie Sanders is clearly reaching a part of the Democratic Party that the Democratic Party is going to need. The nominee is going to need, whether it's him or Hillary Clinton to win in November. You have to keep the basic side. You saw that happen in 2007, 2008 with Obama and Clinton.

BECKEL: There (INAUDIBLE) that they are looking at now. New York, Indiana, California, and one other, Pennsylvania. And think they can win three out of four of those or that is case (INAUDIBLE). CONWAY: Because of this, why is he even so competitive with her in

her quote "home state?" I mean, that is really a story --.

BECKEL: Because she's the dog beat out of her.

CONWAY: No. It is not his home state. Vermont was, he won that. He wasn't -- Bernie Sanders won Vermont by a margin that Hillary Clinton will never win by.

LEMON: How important is this debate?


CONWAY: I understand. She was born in Illinois.

LEMON: How important is the debate on Thursday night?

NUTTER: I think we are at a critical point in the campaign. New York by itself and then what I have called to the kind of Atlantic Tuesday with those five big states and a lot of delegates at stake. But you know, some of the stuff that's happened over the course of the last week, whether represented in New York, born in New York, whatever the case may be, the only thing going on the 19th. And it's significant from a delegate standpoint, so insignificant.

LEMON: So this just one week before the primary.

BECKEL: It's the highest number of undecided voters of any states so far - this far I mean.

MCENANY: And it is worth mentioning, we have seen Bernie Sanders kind of, you know, waiver or go back and forth on this qualified, she is not qualified, here's what I meant, you know. This debate, he is going to be squarely asked, do you think Hillary Clinton is qualified, and he's going to have the choice, do I go negative here or so I rise above and kind of take the road Hillary Clinton did?

PRESTON: But she has signaled today that she is going to go negative based upon on the editorial board that he had with the "Daily News," where he wasn't able to effectively answer questions about how he would reform Wall Street. She said today. She called that into question.

LEMON: Is the campaign worried about momentum?

NUTTER: I mean, you should be able to explain your own plan that you have been talking about for a year. I mean, I have run for office, been in office, you should be able to explain your own stuff.

PRESTON: It's complicated, man, it's complicated.

LEMON: He has won seven over the last eight contests.

BECKEL: That's over. The momentum he takes on New York --.

CONWAY: The question is where do his voters go? But ladies and gentlemen, the idea that his voters, Bernie Sanders voters are just going to say, you know what, this was fun, but I'm for Hillary now, I think that's a dream.

LEMON: Bob, say out loud what you're whispering. What did you just say?

BECKEL: Come on. Just saying that the problem for Bernie Sanders is you caught on later, and I can't, any way I do it, I cannot add up a majority delegates. Can't do it. The only strategy the guy stays on the strategy which is to try to keep them below the 50 percent mark and try to get the second --

LEMON: I find it interesting that you say something and I hear lots of people. Remember in the beginning when I said, you know, lots of people were telling me, Donald Trump, I like that guy. And they look over and then whisper to me, a lot of people have said it's mathematically impossible for Bernie Sanders and it's also mathematically impossible for Donald Trump to win in a general.

BECKEL: There's no way Bernie Sanders can get the nominee. There is no way.

PRESTON: Not mathematically impossible --


MCENANY: Especially when you consider, you know, Kellyanne point echo that. She said not all Bernie Sanders voters are going to just march over to Hillary Clinton. In fact, 37 percent say they can't see themselves voting for Clinton. I would argue Trump has a real chance at courting some of the blue collar workers. In places like Pennsylvania --

[23:55:17] NUTTER: And many Republicans are not voting for Donald Trump if he's the nominee. And will go over to Hillary.

MCENANY: I don't see that.

LEMON: Because of the demographics of this country, she said that demographically impossible --

BECKEL: It's why Republicans can't win the presidency.

HOOVER: Here is the situation. Mitt Romney won 59 percent of white voters, most of any non-incumbent president running -- Republican running for president. He still lost by five million votes. You simply have to bring more groups of people to the table to vote for you besides white voters. And so we have to win more. Win more. We have to win more --

LEMON: We will be right back. We'll be right back.


[23:59:39] LEMON: As we count down the New York primaries next Tuesday make sure you stay with CNN for the town halls with all the GOP candidates and their families. Anderson Cooper hosts Donald Trump, Melania Trump and his children Ivanka, Eric, and Donald Jr. That's tomorrow night at 9:00. Then Ted Cruz and his wife Heidi Cruz take center stage on Wednesday. Also starting at 9:00. And then we'll top all of that off with our Brooklyn Democratic debate between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. That's Thursday night at 9:00.

That's it for us tonight. Good night. I will see you right back here tomorrow night.