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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Clinton Campaigns In Philadelphia; Cruz, Kasich At RNC Spring Meeting; Sanders: We Still Have A Path To The Nomination; Unbound Delegates Critical In Contested Convention Scenario; 3 Gov't Employees Charged In Flint Water Crisis; New $20 Bill Will Feature Harriet Tubman; More Rain Forecasted For Houston Area. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired April 20, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:15] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening, and welcome to the next phase of the presidential campaign that a lot of experts thought would be over a weeks ago. Instead New York actually mattered and tonight we're seeing the fallout.
Hillary Clinton accelerating her pivot to the general election campaign. Bernie Sanders vowing to stay in until the end, Ted Cruz and John Kasich heading to Florida, to move GOP big waves trying to turn a possible contested convention into a winnable one. And of course Donald Trump back on the campaign trail tonight.
When it comes to Ted Cruz, the Republican Party back on the war path, more on all of it in the hour ahead, starting with Republicans and our Jim Acosta.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: In Indianapolis a victory lap for Donald Trump, after taking the checkered flag in the New York primary miles ahead of his dearest rivals.
DOALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The vote was incredible. It was reconciling and its New York and you know what is nice, they know me, they know the good, the bad, they know everything. They know me.
ACOSTA: Dubbed "King Don" by the "New York Post" Trump is not only savoring a big win in his home state.
TRUMP: We're really, really rocking.
ACOSTA: Where the real estate tycoon captured nearly every delegate, up for grabs, Trump took a massive leap forward toward that magic number needed to clinch the nomination. But Trump campaign memo boldly projects the GOP frontrunner will have 1,400 delegates heading into the Republican convention, and attacks the party establishment saying, "This movement scares the hell out of them and the people scare them, so they will do whatever they can to keep power. This system is rigged to allow party insiders to choose delegates, not the people".
TRUMP: The Democrat system it is rigged, but the Republican system is even worse. We get a rigged system, folks.
ACOSTA: It's a system Trump insists Ted Cruz is just trying to exploit.
TRUMP: We don't have much of a race any more, based on what I'm seeing on television. Senator Cruz is just about mathematically eliminated.
ACOSTA: Trump carried that battle cry onto Twitter tweeting "Now all Cruz can do is be a spoiler, never a nice thing to do. I will beat Hillary". The response from team Cruz, not so fast.
TED CRUZ (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You may have heard there was an election yesterday and as the media are breathlessly reporting, Donald Trump won his home state, truly a remarkable achievements.
ACOSTA: The Texas senator notes Trump is still hundreds of delegates short of the 1,237 needed to win the nomination and time is running out.
CRUZ: The math is virtually impossible for Donald Trump. Donald Trump is not getting to go 1,237. Nobody is getting to 1,237. He knows that. Which means this race is headed to Cleveland, it's headed to a contested convention.
ACOSTA: Cruz argues Trump's, "lap dogs" in the media are trying to declare the race over.
CRUZ: Everyone may know Donald was going to win his home state. And if you look at the frenzied panic that he wants the race to suddenly be over now that his won his home state, it shows why Donald is scared.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Now that talking points memo from team Trump to a surrogates it also claims that officials with the Trump campaign are working those delegates just as hard as the other campaigns. That is a slam on the Cruz campaign of course and it tries to push back on that narrative, talking about the memo, that Trump is too unpopular to win the presidency, pointing to sizable negatives for Hillary Clinton. Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Jim Acosta, Jim thanks.
Joining the panel this hour, Jonathan Tasini, Sanders surrogate, and author of "The Essential Bernie Sanders and His Vision for America". And everybody else in the panel has been sticking around.
Dana, of the circumstances, I mean under what circumstances does Donald Trump continue not to grow his lead, or not continue to grow his lead? I mean the next several states look good for him.
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Very good. And there's no question he is going grow basic lead. And even in states where he is not looking so good except for the few that remain that are winner take all, Nebraska, they lead maybe one other.
He is still going to grow his lead. The question is, can he grow it to the point he can get that majority to get past as Sean Spicer said to you in the last hour, in a way frankly that I haven't heard the Republican Party articulate in such a cogent way until that moment until the past the second yard line, you know, to the point where he actually has a winning hand and that 1,237 is a winning hand and it is very, very clear, the party is not going to let him get the nomination just showing up with the most votes.
COOPER: And I mean Kayleigh when you hear Sean Spicer, tonight who in the last hour he said he has to have 1,237, if not he's going to go to another round. And as you, as we all know, to goes to another round, there's is a lot of those Trump the delegates where have to vote Trump first round who could go for Kasich in the second.
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Yeah and here's the thing, Donald Trump would have a hard time in the second ballot, you know he wasn't organized to not to get the delegates the way Ted Cruz was from the outside, but Donald Trump's argument is a winning one, one that the American people have said repeatedly.
[21:05:07] Last night I believe it was 72 percent who said whoever has the most of the American votes should end up being the nominee. So the problem for RNC is that there own voters disagree without Republican voters, you don't have a party. And that's for Sean Spicer sports analogy about how, you know, you don't win without majority of points.
Well, and most sports you also don't win by bribing the referees and that is in fact what you can do under rules of the RNC. You can bribe the delegates. Most people think, the people should vote. Colorado should vote. You don't cancel elections. You don't bribe delegates.
COOPER: But how do you see it actually working at a convention if he doesn't get in first round, it goes to second round and he gets, you know, Ted Cruz gets the delegates. I mean, isn't that over or what does he do? You say, you know, the people should have the right to vote, you know, that they're not going to stand for that. What is does that actually mean though?
MCENANY: I think he needs to win on the first ballot and you do that by saying to the delegates, "Look, the American people are speaking. There are 200 unbound delegates." He is definitely going to get 1,100, definitely probably more than that. It's probably 1,237.
So you go to the 200 unbound delegates and you say to them, "Listen to your voters. They say whoever has the most votes should win. You come to my side. Listen to your voters. The power is in your hands."
TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know this propaganda line that's coming out of the Trumps surrogate poll you here about that the delegates are being bribed, and this is a rigged system. That's a crooked system. It's so unfair. There has been no proof of that whatsoever that any kind of shenanigans are going on.
The Cruz campaign is playing by the rules, doing what the people have done in a campaign for years and years. The idea that not having to reach 1,237 is somehow should change for Donald Trump is something that's been around since 160 years, that's 1856. To elaborate on the sports analogy, you know, it's almost as good enough, but I guess the Tennessee Titans would have been Super Bowl champions in 2000 because anybody who saw that, you know, inches matter in football.
So, the idea that Donald Trump continues to feed this very false narrative that it's a rigged system, its red meat for people who don't understand how it works. But it is completely unfair and just the propaganda continued on and on because there's nothing rigged about a delegate system. Of course there's nothing rigged about the Electoral College.
MATT LEWIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. If Trump doesn't get it on this and -- but we all know.
SETMAYER: We don't, but (inaudible) don't.
LEWIS: If Trump didn't know the first ballot, but if it goes to second ballot, Cruz most likely wins. And it's not because Cruz is going to be buying delegates.
LEWIS: It's because the people who become delegates are party activists, party regulars, stall warts who are part of the Republican Party year in and year out. And frankly, Donald Trump, you know, we never talk about this part. But Donald Trump has philosophical problems with the conservative movement. He's in pair with taxpayer funding of Planned Parenthood. He supports the universal healthcare.
There are substantive issues where hardcore conservatives and Republican activists have deep, substantial, substantive problems with Trump.
COOPER: And also -- and Kayleigh you said this. I mean, he hasn't put into work in the organization which Ted Cruz has to, you know, to abide by the rules. I mean he hasn't done it.
MCENANY: My question to Matt though, is should it be that anti- terrorist? It should be the activists deciding or the people. Do you agree with the Colorado state party's decision to cancel the vote?
SETMAYER: That's not what happened.
LEWIS: Do we want a Republican party that's a top down is a command and control that the RNC says this is how you will select delegates or do we want to empower 50 state Republican parties. Some of them have caucuses. Some of them have conventions. Some of them have open primaries. Some of them have closed primaries and that's what we're talking about. Is it diversity?
MCENANY: How do we -- how about, hold on, empowering the people though?
MCENANY: Is any responsible leader should have a problem cancelling the popular vote?
SETMAYER: That's -- first of all, that's not what happened in Colorado. Colorado, a state legislature decided in 2002 to go back to a caucus.
SETMAYER: So there was no, the party bosses woke up one day and said ...
SETMAYER: Wait a minute. It's unbinding -- first of all, it's unbinding that the presidential preferences vote they had in Colorado. So it wouldn't matter anyway. They still have precinct caucuses where average folks, who are stakeholders in the Republican Party and their Grassroots organizers vote and then they move on to a county ...
COOPER: And Dana -- I mean also, the people make the argument that it is undemocratic. You can also make the same argument about caucuses which is only party activist or going out a small percentage of voters is actually going to achieve that.
BASH: Look, this whole process is imperfect and the irony of this is just a little bit of historical context is that, this process is a whole lot more Democratic than it had been not that long ago. I mean, it wasn't that long ago that you didn't really have that many primaries, never mind caucuses and that's what these conventions were. They were delegates. They got there. They got in the room. They were given promises in sports trading, smoke filled the whole situation and it's a lot better now.
[21:10:02] COOPER: We got it. We got to take a quick break. We'll do some horse trading during the break.
When we come back, the Democrats Hillary Clinton's lead and how the Sanders campaign hopes are prevail in spite of it.
And later, one mom's reaction to criminal charges for some officials in the Flint water poising and to Michigan Governor Rick Synder promised to drink the water, the filter water for a month. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Unlike the Republicans John Kasich, and Ted Cruz, and Bernie Sanders is not mathematically eliminated in his primary campaign. He actually could get enough delegates to overtake Hillary Clinton. It just would be hard even before last night. Now with her big win in New York, Secretary Clinton is trying to press her advantage and Senator Sanders is looking for new ways to win.
Jeff Zeleny takes a look at that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The race for the Democratic nomination is in the home stretch and victory is in sight.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Hillary Clinton looking ahead. A triumph at home in New York cementing her position once again as the likely Democratic nominee. An intense battle with Bernie Sanders suddenly giving way to an olive branch.
CLINTON: And to all of the people who supported Senator Sanders, I believe there is much more that unites us than divides us.
ZELENY: Sanders insists he's not going anywhere. Telling the supporters in a fundraising appeal today, we still have a path to the nomination and our plan is to win pledge delegates in this primary. But just saying it, it doesn't make it so. The math always a challenge is now a firm roadblock for Sanders.
[21:15:12] Those big crowds who rallied across New York, raising expectations for what turned into a punishing 16 point defeat.
Tonight, Clinton leads by 253 pledge delegates. With superdelegates, she moves even closer to the magic number of 2,383, he needed to clinch the Democratic nomination. Sanders advisers concede the campaign fell short.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're a little farther behind in delegates than we hoped to be.
ZELENY: After a raucous election night rally at Penn State University, filled with blistering attacks on Clinton.
BERNIE SANDERS, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Secretary Clinton has given speeches behind closed doors to Wall Street firms for $225,000 a speech.
Must be an earth shattering speech.
ZELENY: A subdued Sanders arrived home to Vermont, where he said, he intended to recharge and rest, but not rethink his campaign.
SANDERS: No, we think we have the message that is resonating throughout this country. We have come a long, long way. We have taken on the entire Democratic political establishment. ZELENY: The Democratic establishment is growing restless, worrying Sanders could be a spoiler by attacking Clinton's honesty and integrity.
Jennifer Palmieri, Communications Director for Clinton told reporters, Sanders has been destructive and is not productive to Democrats, particularly suggesting Clinton is corrupt.
A line of attack Republicans are already seizing on. For now, Clinton is taking a more subtle approach.
CLINTON: Under the bright lights of New York, we have seen that it's not enough to diagnose problems. You have to explain how you'd actually solve the problems.
ZELENY: But, making clear her eye is once again on November.
CLINTON: Donald Trump and Ted Cruz are pushing a vision for America that's divisive and frankly dangerous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And Jeff Zeleny joins us now. So, what's next for Bernie Sander? If I remember from last night, he was taking today kind of off down town to Vermont, back on the trail tomorrow.
ZELENY: He did, Anderson. In a short term, it's Pennsylvania, he has three big events scheduled tomorrow in Pennsylvania. He'll be in Pennsylvania again on Friday.
But, the longer term is a little less clear for him. And most candidates at this point, sort of, run out of money, or gas, or support. That's not happening for Bernie Sanders. In fact, tonight, his campaign a filed their disclosure report for the last month, raising $46 million. He had $17 million cash on hand. So, that's not an issue here.
The challenge here for Senator Sanders is in the next week. Can he put on some big wins on the board next week, maybe in Pennsylvania? Would that sort of, you know, keep his momentum alive? The Clinton campaign feels very confident again about next week, because they're all closed primaries like New York, Democrats only.
So, the issue for Senator Sanders is how he moves forward, will he close down this campaign as a protest candidate or a problem candidate for Hillary Clinton. Some Democrats are worried that he is eating away her credibility on trust, on honesty, other things.
The person who watch here, Anderson, I'm told as Jane Sanders. She's one of his top advisers. They were huddling together all day long. So, what she advises him, their private discussions will give a lot of insight into how far he goes forward, how aggressively he goes forward.
COOPER: All right, Jeff Zeleny, a lot to watch more. Jeff, thanks very much. Back with our panel. As a Sanders supporter, I mean, do you want to see your candidate still going after Hillary Clinton as hard as he has been? I mean, you know, albeit on the issues, or do you want to see just for the future of the party, however it pans out a change in tone or focus?
JONATHAN TASINI, BERNIE SANDERS SURROGATE: Well, I want to answer that. Something happened before that I just want make in comment on. I saw the segment before. And I think it's easy for Christine and I, as progressive to criticize Donald Trump. But, I want to give a lot of props to Tara, because in her own party, I think it's very hard to stand up and call Donald Trump for what he is, right. As a Democrat, who's never voted for a Republican, I congratulate you for having that courage.
TARA: And Jonathan, are you just completely racked of my conservative part.
TASINI: I know. Yeah. But, I do think that that's very important for me from a conservative to actually call him out because of what that means for the country. So, thank you very much.
Look, I think there's a difference between personal attacks, which I believed Bernie has not engage in versus the issues. And I want to go actually to what, talking about courage with Dana did at the debate, where she pressed Hillary Clinton several times about the Wall Street transcripts, and she kept after it, like a good reporter, never got any answer, because that's about a bigger issue.
The Wall Street transcripts, is about the corruption in government. And I don't mean that some sort of illegal thing, but the influence pedaling, that everybody, on both sides, the Republicans, the Democrats, think as effected or democracy.
[21:20:04] COOPER: But when Bernie Sanders has been asked specifically about, you know, to name a specific example on which her influence has involved.
TASINI: And I will give you, and I will give you.
BASH: That's the question I asked.
MCENANY: But he quit, he quit and he ...
TASINI: I will give you the answer to that, the bankruptcy bill. When Hillary Clinton first opposed the bankruptcy bill, and then became the second most recipient of banking money.
And, magically, all of a sudden was for the bankruptcy. We just to explain to the viewers, that, basically, made it impossible for regular working people to file bankruptcy, effected millions of people. Hillary Clinton went with the bank industry, because that's a very specific thing that hurt millions of working Americans. BASH: The little, just covering out was, I mean, I don't want to get and believe and it's not what, it was a very complicated road, legislatively.
TASINI: Yes. But, there were lots that I know about this, because I'm a labor movement person. We fought very hard to defeat that bill, because it hurt working Americans. And it was a gift to the credit card industry. That's just a fact. And now ...
COOPER: Go ahead Christine. Yes, go ahead Christine.
CHRISTINE QUINN, HILLARY CLINTON SUPPORTER: Well, let me just say, that it was more complicated than in understanding you're -- describing it quickly on a show like this, but it was more complicated that that, A, but, B, in the debate, Senator Sanders was pushed as she should have been to give a specific example, and not withstanding the one you gave, he had no example. And I think his silence spoke volumes about how baseless this charge really is.
But, if you want to talk about industries and impacts, why is the gun industry, the only industry out there in America that Senator Sanders doesn't feel should have -- is only one that the senator feels Americans shouldn't have the right to sue against. We don't do that with the car industry, we don't do that for pharmaceuticals.
Why does he have that position?
QUINN: And is it because and there are a lot of gun owners in Vermont? Is it that is in fact, politics and action as well the exact kind of politics? You've claim you don't want to have?
TASINI: So, I think he's answered that a number of times.
QUINN: Not to my satisfaction.
TASINI: OK. Well, I'm sorry, you're not satisfied. But, I will answer again for the audience since they want to hear again.
He has said that he was concerned in that legislation that if some local guy in Vermont, not just involve, whether you agree with the explanation or not, walked into the store, bought a legal product, and went out and went crazy into a theater and tell people that that person should not be held responsible.
At the same time, Bernie has said subsequent to that. He wants to rethink this and look at this.
TASINI: And he is open, as I think, everybody got the public said, he is open to ...
QUINN: Can I ask a question?
COOPER: Let's just move on. Because it's not good get some policy specific.
COOPER: No, no it's fine, it's interesting. But, just to get Peter and Dana in on this.
I mean, do you see the rhetoric changing or needs to change? I mean, assuming, there's a lot of people on the Clinton side who are very concerned about where this race goes in the final weeks?
PETER BEINART, CONTRIBUTOR THE ATLANTIC: I think she's going to be fine. I don't think that the history of primary suggests that candidates really are that damaged by these difficult intramural fights. Remember what happened, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton was pretty tough.
But, I think actually, you know, what's remarkable, and even though I think Hillary Clinton, he is going to be the nominee, Bernie Sanders has really won the ideological argument. Do you know how you know, she never defense Wall Street. Now, if you had gone back to the 1990s, what are Democrat, what Bill Clinton would have said about, that was no.
Yes, there are excesses, but Wall Street has an important role of this country, we allocate capital, we need financial markets, they do some valuable things. What's really remarkable is that she has never actually tried to make that argument in response to Bernie Sanders. That suggests how much he has won the debate inside the Democratic Party.
COOPER: But, we just, we don't have ...
QUINN: Right. It's like she used to that. I was ...
TASINI: Peter makes an excellent point. Thank you for that and he's defined the whole debate in the primary. And Hillary Clinton has taken positions she has never taken before.
COOPER: Well that's certainly.
TASINI: The CNN itself looked at how many times she called the Trans- Pacific Partnership, the goals are over 40 times. I think you said, all of a sudden, magically, oh, she's never been -- but again ...
COOPER: A number of policy positions have changed and often just right before debate.
TASINI: You cannot use -- that Hillary Clinton is not the Hillary Clinton that you would expect.
COOPER: Sure. BASH: But, there's enough, you mentioned the gun industry, that's actually something that's turned on its head for the Democratic Party, because I'm old enough to remember when Democrats didn't want to touch the gun debate with the 10 foot poll, because they felt rightly so, in many cases, that they were getting beaten all over the south, and then many heavily rural states, because they were so anti-gun.
Those days are completely over. The irony of all ironies, because you have these progressive candidate who happens to come from a gun state that Hillary Clinton wanted to get this ...
COOPER: Well, I mean, I remember back in 2008, when candidate Obama, you know, calling Hillary Clinton an (inaudible)
BEINART: An (inaudible). Right, right. And I think, you know ...
BASH: And in Pennsylvania, clinging to their gun, remember?
BEINART: The Republican Party, this cycle, I think it's not going to be able to nominate a strong enough candidate to make Democrats pay for. But, in a different kind of election, this position on gun would hurt the Democrats.
COOPER: Yeah. We got to take a break.
Coming up, can Ted Cruz and John Kasich do anything to gain he apprehended contested convention? What our Republican Party meeting at a resort in Florida that has to do with that.
[21:25:04] We'll take you there, next.
COOPER: The Republican Party rules panel meets tomorrow to discuss the upcoming convention. They should have plenty to talk about. It's part of a larger meeting of RNC members at a resort in Hollywood, Florida this week. There's typically a lot of schmoozing, there's a yacht party on the agenda, for instance.
However, this election season, obviously, is like no other, and there are ton of issues to sort out. Phil Mattingly, joins us now with more. How do we -- How much do we know about what's going on at these meetings?
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, these meetings are really going on in a series of behind the scenes sit downs that are working on dual tracks, Anderson. First, you have the candidates, obviously, Ted Cruz and John Kasich down here in person today to meet with the 168 RNC members, or at least as many as they can fit in their quick appearances down here and there's a really good reason why.
All 168 are voting delegates at the Cleveland convention. As you look at the possibility of an open convention, these are the type of people that these candidates want to hear their message and potentially consider jumping on board with them, even if not on the first ballot, then possibly the second ballot. The other is a series of closed door meetings going on in between RNC members.
[21:30:04] Now, you talked about the rules, coming out of this meeting. It's not necessarily that there will be changes to the rules going into convention, there won't be. But there will be recommendations in how the committee resolves some issues that have really blown up over the last couple days about what those rules recommendations will look like are very important. That's what we get answer to tomorrow. Today is been how to resolve this issues behind the scenes, Anderson?
COOPER: So just to be clear, I mean you just said it, but just to repeat good for emphasis, it won't effect any of the rules for this convention, correct? It is delegates who decide those.
MATTINGLY: Yeah, that's exactly right. Coming out of this meeting, there won't be changes to those rules. But what is does really is set a template for the rules committee meeting. And yeah, this is getting in the weeds. No question about it. But why this matters right now is the reality that a lot of the 168 member's candidates and staff are dealing with inside the hotel behind me.
A contested convention is a possibility and if that's the case, the rules package that comes out the week before the convention will be extraordinarily important in guiding how that looks. That's what makes this week most important. I think expectation is what they send across this week will look very much like it did before this week actually even started.
But the conversations that are happening, the potential from rules changes that might be considered going forward, all of those issues are being batted around behind the scenes, Anderson, and that's why this such an important week.
COOPER: All right, Phil Mattingly, Phil thanks very much.
Earlier tonight, I spoke with Sean Spicer, the chief strategist and communications director for the RNC. Use a football analogy but basically he said the rules are the rules, and the candidates have to know them and follow them. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN SPICER, RNC CHIEF STRATEGIST & COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: It takes 1,237 delegates to pass any order of business. And I think we have to remember that. There's no other time that we would ever say, you know, and whether its politics or sports, hey, if you get to the 2 yard line, will that counts as a touchdown. That's just not how the rules work.
I think it then it would be incumbent upon the Trump campaign and other campaigns to make case to the delegates both on the first round of voting depends on every subsequent number of votes to get to that majority. But that's the process that we've gone through, dating back to 1856, ultimately a majority of delegates will decide every aspect of our convention.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Also in Hollywood Florida tonight is CNN delegate analyst and former RNC Chief of Staff Mike Shields. Mike, you've attended this meeting before. What exactly can these leaders do if they aren't able actually change the rules? I mean because both Cruz and Kasich as we just mentioned. They thought it was important enough to actually fly all the way down there.
MIKE SHIELDS, CNN DELEGATE ANALYST: Well, but this is a meeting of the Republican National Committee, the 168 members of the RNC which is the Republican Party are in the hotel as Phil said. There meeting here, they're having what's a quarterly meeting, it's a regularly scheduled meeting that was already going to take place.
But when they're all in one place, I mean these things are the things that are being discussed there. They're getting ready on the verge of going to what could be contested convention, and so they're trying to sort out. How are we going to handling that, what are things we have put in the place.
I can tell you from the chairman's perspective they're trying to put an open, transparent convention on. They know that if you have a contested convention, there is going to be a lot of delegate arguments, there is going to be a lot of rules the things that have to go on. And the RNC itself has to play a role to be very transparent, and put something on that the public can see is being handled by the delegates and not by anybody else. That's a really big priority from chairman.
COOPER: All right, so let's look ahead after California, which is on June 7. Let just say Trump doesn't have 1,237 needed to secure the nomination. What happens then? Because this unbound delegates, they could make or break the game at that point.
SHIELDS: They could. So you're going to see a campaign just to those unbound delegates. You're going to almost like a mini campaign, just to people that are unbound to try to put him over. And you now you see critics of the RNC rules right now, the Trump campaign, some people in the media, bloggers.
What they're not saying is what they would do about it. They're upset with the way the rules are, even though these are the rules as Sean Spicer are said that they have been around forever. And there sort of upset what them they said it rigged, but they're not really coming up with prescription of what should they do. Should they have the chairman just deem the rules to be different.
I think what you're really going to see is realization after June 8. These are the rules, the delegates are going to decide, the delegates decide everything, and there is really a campaign to those delegates to try win them over to put a candidate over 1,237.
COOPER: So in reference to unbound delegates on this scenario, someone close to Trump's team I think told Politico, this is like a Super Bowl ticket, the price only goes up. Going on to say, "If I were a delegate, I'd say I'm unpledged and hang my hat out there, wine me and dine me. I think there are going to some free trips to Cleveland." Is that -- this could come down to wining and dining?
SHIELDS: You know, I give the delegates a little bit more credit than that. I'm not sure, you're going to try to influence them. But these are Republican Party regulars. These are the county folks that have worked up the way up to the Republican Party over the years. They care about the country. I have a lot of faith in those delegates. I think that there are the people that put up the yard signs, then put on the bumper stickers you seeing we're in the funny hats. They're hardly by the way what you would consider maybe establishment. And I think they'll really going to try to decide what's best for the country.
You know, in the past when we've had an open convention through history, the delegates really made a decision based on who they thought could win in the fall. And I think that's going to be one of the critical cases that these candidates are going to have to make of those delegates, who can actually beat Hillary Clinton in the fall.
[21:35:03] COOPER: All right, Mike Shields, Mike thanks very much.
Coming up, first criminal charges have been filed in the Flint, Michigan water crisis with the promise of more to come. City and state employees have been charged with misconduct, neglect some residents say after all they've been through. They will not be satisfied until governor resigns or some even say in jail. The latest from Flint, ahead.
COOPER: Well, it's a question with many possible answers. Who is to blame for the contaminated water crisis in Flint, Michigan?
Today, the first criminal charges were filed with a promise more to come. And some people in Flint say, the blame goes all the way to the top, to the governor, they want him held accountable.
But, for now, two state and one city government employees have been charged with among other things, willful neglect of duty, misconduct in office, and tampering with evidence.
Our investigator correspondent Sara Ganim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE GLASGOW, FLINT'S LABORATORY AND WATER QUALITY SUPERVISOR: I only did it, because I was instructed to.
SARA GANIM, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: In his only sit down interview given to CNN last month, Mike Glasgow, now one of those charged in the Flint water crisis, admitted he altered reports, which made the water here seem safe when it was not. Glasgow worked at Flint's Water Treatment Plant for a good portion of his career.
[21:40:00] Who told you to eliminate those highest two samples?
GLASGOW: That would have been two gentlemen from the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality.
GANIM: Can you tell me who?
GLASGOW: Michael Prysby and Stephen Busch.
GANIM: Did you ever argue with them on whether or not, you should change it?
GLASGOW: No, I asked the question why, and they gave, they cited some solidified reasons, reasoning to remove a couple item, so I didn't question it much further.
GANIM: The items were homes with high lead levels, part of a water quality report that would have raised red flags about Flint's drinking water. Instead it was months before it was discovered that Flint wasn't following federal corrosion control regulation and the water was poison.
BILL SCHUETTE, MICHIGAN ATTORNEY GENERAL: They failed Michigan families. Indeed, they failed us all. I don't care where you live.
GANIM: The Michigan Attorney General charged Glasgow Wednesday with tampering with evidence and neglect, not buying Glasgow's game that he was simply following orders, the special prosecutor compare pairing to Nazi war criminals defense.
TODD FLOOD, SPECIAL PROSECUTOR: That defense didn't work in places when, you know, you're ordered to do something, right in your emberg and the like. It's a tough -- situation with regards to Mr. Glasgow, but when you did a criminal act, an overt act and had the corrupt mind to do that act, you're going to be charged.
GANIM: The charges pile even higher for Prysby and Busch. But he use to recover up of the toxic water. Busch even wrote in this February 2015e-mail to the EPA that Flint had optimized corrosion control when it did not.
The crisis here has left Flint deprived of clean water for nearly two years. It caused Flint children to be poisoned with lead. 12 people died from the water born legion air's disease, and officials are investigating a link to poorly treated water. The investigation won't stop here.
FLOOD: These charges are only the beginning.
GANIM: The Michigan Attorney General said they wouldn't rule out anyone as they continue to investigate, even embattled Governor Rick Snyder.
FLOOD: No one is above the law.
GANIM: Desperately trying to hang onto his job, Snyder announced last w eek that he would drink filtered Flint water for 30 days to make a point that it was safe. Something that offended many Flint residents.
Twitter lit up with comments like these. An important tip to remember is to not trust you. You should resign. And filtered? Enjoy. They ain't serving you filtered water in the clink. And today when asked whether he believes he did anything criminal, Snyder gave little.
GOV. RICK SNYDER, FLINT MICHIGAN: And I don't believe so.
GANIM: Yet the governor has admitted to bearing some responsibility as does Mike Glasgow.
There maybe some people out there some members of the community who believe that you share some responsibility for this. What do you say to them?
GLASGOW: I think about that every day. I was a key figure I guess in some of this looking at I am operating the treatment plant, overseeing some of the sampling, but born and raised here in Flint. I would never do nothing to hurt this city or its citizens.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And Sara Ganim joins us now, what happened in court today? Did they enter pleas?
GANIM: The two of them did, Anderson. Stephen Busch and Mike Prysby both entered pleads of not guilty. Mike Glasgow is yet to be arraigned. Is worth noting that there are several students, employees above these three who made significant decisions that played out in the course of this crisis. Many of them report to the governor directly. And that's something that we will be looking forward as the investigation continues. You heard the attorney general say there will be more charges coming.
COOPER: More charges coming. What's the reaction in Flint?
GANIM: Well, you know, the people here have been enduring being called a liar, being called liars, being called complainers for 18 months while they voiced concerns about their water. So today was a very significant day for them. But one of the key residents here, Lee Ann Walters, she has among the highest lead levels in her home.
Here children tested high for lead in blood, she's been a huge advocate here. When I asked her about today, she said that Mike Glasgow was actually one of the few officials that she felt was trying to help, trying to do the right thing, and in many ways feels he was scapegoat today, Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Sarah Ganim. Sarah thanks.
We met another Flint resident, Mikki Wade, you may remember who he met her at a presidential debate last month was among these members got a chance to ask questions of Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders.
Now here is what Mikki said in asking how she could regain her trust in a government that failed her and her family. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKKI WADE, FLINT, MICHIGAN RESIDENT: The water has impacted our lives in such way that living comfortably in our home isn't the same anymore. The constant drives to pick up water just so much children can wash their hair, to wash our fruits and vegetables and to brush our teeth is incredibly difficult.
[21:45:07] Once the pipes are replaced, I'm not for sure if I will be comfortable ever drinking the water.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I spoke with Mikki Wade before we went on the air.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Mikki, what's your reaction to the charges. What do you make of what residents there saying that these three individuals are perhaps being used scapegoats? Do you agree with that?
WADE: A bit, yes, I do. Its actually bittersweet for me because I'm happy to see some but type of justice happening but sad too, because I feel like they're definitely scapegoats and the person that's responsible to me and the leader of our government is not being, nothing is being done to him whatsoever.
COOPER: Let me ask you about it. The government I assume you're talking about Governor Snyder. He said today he doesn't believe he did anything criminally wrong. Do you think he should also be facing charges?
WADE: Definitely, oh definitely. You tell me what leader you know isn't supposed to be responsible or accountable for governing a state and he knows nothing about it. He carelessly acts as if he has no accountability whatsoever? Yeah. He definitely should be charged. And in my personal opinion, maybe face jail time.
COOPER: If the governor announced that he's going to be drinking filtered Flint tap water for the next 30 days to show that it is safe. I wonder when you heard that, what went through your mind?
WADE: It was a bit funny for me because I feel like he's making this a joke. You know, he is saying filtered tap water. Imagine us drinking water for over a year that wasn't filtered at all.
COOPER: At the Democratic debate in Flint last month, you said the constant drive to pick up water for the kids to wash their hair, to brush their teeth were obviously incredibly difficult. I mean has anything done better since then?
WADE: No. Not really. Not at all. Actually it is worse. My son who is 17 years old, he ended up with a really, really terrible rash on his face. And the dermatologist cannot tell me how he got this rash. It started with a pimple. He took a shower and next thing you know, it spread it across his face. My son has been on antibiotics trying to clear this infection since January, and -- sorry.
COOPER: That's OK.
WADE: For me, that's troublesome for me. I want to make sure my son is OK for the future and I don't know what the long term effects could happen to him in the future.
COOPER: But you also, I mean I remember it really stuck in my mind, you said you weren't sure once the pipes were replaced if you would be comfortable using that water ever again. Do you still feel that way?
WADE: I definitely feel that way. You know, Anderson, I haven't taken a bath in two years. You know and showering, I don't shower. We use nothing but bottled water. I have to pay a company to deliver water to my house, which I really can't afford. It costs me between $35 to $55 a month just to have this water delivered.
And water, I do not see people delivering water in our city as much as it was in the beginning. So, you know, things are slowing down. And I'm scared that the spotlight that's on us is dimming very quickly.
COOPER: Mikki, I appreciate you talking tonight and representing your community. Thank you so much.
WADE: Thank you so much, Anderson, for having me on here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Mikki Wade. Just ahead, a big change for U.S. currency. The Treasury Department announced that a woman will make her debut on American currency. We'll tell you which bills and who it it's going to be. And run for the back story that is all the drama, the Broadway musical. Next.
[21:52:57] COOPER: And today the Treasury Department announced that Harriet Tubman will be featured on a new $20 bill. There's been an effort to put a woman on the front of a bill for nearly a year now but there was some historical, not to mention, musical influences that came into play and turned the whole thing upside down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It all started last summer when the Treasury Department announced it would add a woman to the $10 bill in 2020 to coincide with the100-year anniversary of women winning the right to vote. The government wanted people's thoughts on the redesign and got them in a big way.
JACK LEW, TREASURY DEPARTMENT SECRETARY: You know, when we started this conversation, not quite a year ago, it wasn't clear to me that millions of Americans were going to weigh in with their ideas.
COOPER: Treasury Secretary Jack Lew, today, announced that the new $10 bill will depict leaders of the Women's Suffrage Movement but they'll be on the back of the bill, not the front. It just so happens, the guy on the front also has top billing on Broadway right now.
LIN-MANUEL MIRANDA, BROADWAY MUSICAL IN THE HEIGHTS OF HAMILTON, STAR: Alexander Hamilton, my name is Alexander Hamilton, there's a million things I haven't done just you wait, just you wait.
COOPER: Hamilton creator and star Lin-Manuel Miranda, who just won the Pulitzer Prize for drama, met with the Treasury Secretary last month to lobby for keeping Hamilton on the $10. Presidential historian, Douglas Brinkley, says when Hamilton mania took over the country, the government had no choice but to pay attention.
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Treasury Department found themselves in a bind. They no longer could can remove Hamilton from the $10 bill because of this pop culture phenomenon that what was going on.
COOPER: With Hamilton staying on the $10, the $20 then came into play. Announced today the new $20 will feature Harriet Tubman, the abolitionist and women's rights activist who led enslaved people to freedom on the Underground Railroad. Andrew Jackson, a slave owner, gets booted to the back of the new bill.
BRINKLEY: I think they very wisely shifted to the $20 and Andrew Jackson, because Jackson is not a sustainable hero the way Hamilton is mainly due to the fact of his promotion of genocide of Native Americans and in the trail of tears.
[21:55:03] COOPER: Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton have both tweeted their support for the new bill. Clinton writing, "A woman, a leader and freedom fighter," I can't think of a better choice for the $20 bill than Harriet Tubman.
Ben Carson said on Fox Business that Jackson that Jackson shouldn't be kick off the front of the $20.
BEN CARSON, FMR (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I love Harriet Tubman. I love what she did. But we can find another way to honor her. Maybe a $2 bill.
COOPER: The Treasury Secretary said he knew they couldn't make everyone happy, but for the first time in more than a century, a woman's face will be on American paper money. The last time was Martha Washington on a dollar certificate in the late 1800s, and for the first time in history
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The $10 found in father without a father.
COOPER: Hip-hop was a driving force in a treasury debate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Before we go, a quick update on the flooding in Houston's signs maybe quite while before the crisis ends. There's new word from the National Weather Service Forecasting showers and thunderstorms for the area, dumping even more moisture the waterways that can't take another inch.
It began were seeing today that could change and so the good the cost in lives the death toll rose to eight today, 1,000 homes have been destroyed, more than $5 billion in damage so far. Just a terrible scene there for the people of Houston.
[22:00:01] That does it for us. Thanks for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" with Don Lemon starts now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: The battle for New York is one but the war for delegates is far from over.
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.