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Cruz and Kasich Team Up to Try to Topple Trump; Celebrity Sanders Supporter Goes Too Far in Blasting Hillary Clinton; Beyonce's "Lemonade" New Blockbuster; Hillary Clinton Attacked Donald Trump's Lavish Lifestyle. Aired 11p-Midnight ET

Aired April 25, 2016 - 23:00   ET



[23:01:03] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Voters about to go to the polls in five states. Is Donald Trump's rivals try to Hail Mary a Hail Mary straight out of the reality show?

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Cruz and Kasich team-up to try to topple Trump, will voters buy it, though?

And on the Democrat side, did a celebrity Sanders supporter go too far in blasting Hillary Clinton? We will talk national obsession.

Beyonce's "lemonade," is queen bee's new blockbuster, the story of a love triangle? Who is Becky with the good hair? And did Beyonce just rewrite the rules all over again? We have the story behind the visual album everyone is talking about.

But let's begin with turmoil in the GOP on the eve of Super Tuesday. Here to discuss two, two radio host on opposite sides. Chris Stigall is the host of WPHT morning show in Philadelphia. He's a Ted Cruz supporter by the way. And also John DePetro, a talk show host for WPRO in Providence, Rhode Island. He supports Donald Trump.

Good evening, gentlemen. Thank you for coming on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good to be with you.

LEMON: I want to discuss tomorrow's primaries first.

So John, you support Trump. You even warmed up the crowd at the big rally there today. And of course you have your live radio show three hours a day. What are your listeners saying about all this?

JOHN DEPETRO, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST, WPRO: You know, the thing, Don, is Rhode Island, you know the New England basically normally tends to be a blue state. But things are so difficult in Rhode Island. And the Rhode Island primary is open. So tomorrow when people go to the polls, you are going to be asked if you are an independent voter. Do you want a Republican ballot or Democrat ballot? And who Trump is attracting are the blue collar union Democrats, the blue collar Democrats. The Reagan Democrats. People are so frustrated in Rhode Island. High unemployment, heavy

illegal immigration. Donald Trump's message, Don, has completely cut through the state is a wreck. There's going to be record turnout tomorrow. The enthusiasm today was just tremendous. You are going to see a huge turnout. And Trump is going to big win Rhode Island. I think over 65 percent tomorrow.

LEMON: When I introduce you, if I didn't say you were a Trump supporter, people would know by what you just said.

So Chris, you support Ted Cruz. But Donald Trump, I mean, he is leading in the polls by double digits in Pennsylvania. Well tomorrow's results look the same you think? Any surprises? What are your listeners saying?

CHRIS STIGALL, HOST, WPHT MORNING SHOW, PENNSYLVANIA: No. I don't think there will be. I agree with John. I think it will probably be a route or real close to one for Donald Trump tomorrow. But I will say this at least in Pennsylvania, I don't -- John can speak to Rhode Island, the thing I encourage everyone to consider in Pennsylvania, as you know, it's all about the delegates. And there are 54 delegates in Pennsylvania that will go to the convention uncommitted. Now many of them have since declared. And one of my colleagues on our radio station has gone to the trouble of finding what these delegates and how they will vote to the convention. That matters a lot. So Trump may win big and probably will win big tomorrow in Pennsylvania. But that doesn't mean 54 delegates vote for him. So that is something that Cruz, Kasich and Trump people should keep in mind.

LEMON: Everyone said that this is going to be a more interesting one that you have so many unbound delegates there.

But John, listen, Rhode Island is only the only open primary state tomorrow where independents and Democrats can vote Republican. You think Democrats are going to defect to Trump?

DEPETRO: I do, Don. And the interesting dynamic here is Hillary Clinton had a failed rally on Saturday. There is no enthusiasm at all. They had all the top leaders. The governor here who is very unpopular, Governor Gina Raimondo. They tried to get everyone excited. There is no excitement at all.

Bill Clinton was in the state today. Former president Clinton, no excitement. Bernie Sanders, Don, had a rally yesterday over 8,000 people attended. So here's what's going to happen in Rhode Island tomorrow. The liberal progressives, they will vote for Bernie Sanders. But many of the people who were Democrats that normally would have gone for Hillary, they're not with Hillary. They're going to go with Trump. So you are going to see high turnout Republican Party. Big Trump win. Low turnout Democrat party. I'm predicting a Bernie Sanders victory.

[23:05:10] LEMON: Wow. Interesting. So do you think that there's going to be a contested convention on the Republican side? I mean, how are voters react if a third option, right, is white nominated is nominated in the party? DEPETRO: You know, Don, that is not - I don't see how that is going

to happen because I was there today. And when you are with Mr. Trump, the excitement, he has people pumped. This is like trying to stop a tidal wave. There is no way, first of all, he is going to reach the number he has to get to. But every time he's going, you know, the enthusiasm is building. More people are coming onboard. He is going to be the nominee. The republicans need to rally around him. And even this latest of Cruz-Kasich trying to team up and that's falling apart. Don, Donald Trump, nothing is going to stop this train. If he can win Rhode Island, which he is going to, he won the Massachusetts primary. This is going to be a blowout in the general election.

LEMON: Chris, do you agree with that? That nothing can stop this train that he says?

STIGALL: Look, he and like everyone has to get to 1237. I do not. Under any circumstances support the idea of airdropping someone at the convention. I mean, it's down to Trump and Cruz. We all know that. It's a delegate game. It's a mathematics' game. I don't think anything sinister or unfair. The only thing that bothered me about the Trump campaign is the suggestion that there is something insidious or unfair going on. It's just the way this works. You have to get 1237 delegates. If you don't, it's a new ball game. So if Trump gets is look, nothing would please me more to have this thing locked up before we get to Cleveland. But it doesn't look that way right now.

LEMON: He is also talking about -- he is saying the Kasich and Cruz working together, too, is collusion well. Listen to this.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, if you collude in business or if you collude in the stock market, they put you in jail. But in politics because it's a rigged system, because it is a corrupt enterprise, in politics, you're allowed to collude. So they colluded. And actually I was happy because it shows how weak they are. It shows how pathetic they are.


LEMON: Yes. So give me the final thought here. I'll give you the last word, Chris. What do you think? Is Donald Trump right or wrong?

STIGALL: Well, you have to consider that there are a sizable number of voters in these primaries across the country that have not chosen Donald Trump. If Donald Trump is the nominee, he is going have to do better than just calling everybody that supports Cruz and Kasich part of a big lie or scheme. It's just not the case. If Trump is the nominee, I'm happy to support him. But this is all on the up and up. It's all fair and square. This is the way it was done ever since there were party rules. This is a state by state issue. That's all.

LEMON: Thank you, John. Thank you, Chris and John. Appreciate it.

DEPETRO: All right, Don Lemon.

STIGALL: Good to be with you.

LEMON: Now I want to bring in Congresswoman Marcia Blackburn, a Tennessee Republican.

Thank you so much, Congresswoman. Good to be with you as well. Thanks for coming in. So what do you make of this alliance between Cruz and Kasich? It's a bit unusual, no?

REP. MARSHA BLACKBURN (R), TENNESSEE: Well, I think what they're trying to do is find a way to make certain that this goes to e convention. But quite frankly, I think Trump should be saying, hey, my opponents are admitting that I'm in the lead here and it's going to be tough to stop me. The good thing that is coming out of all of this is people are engaged. They're watching. They don't like the feedback I've heard from constituents as they really don't like this alliance. Because they think everybody get out there, play your best game. Let's see who has the most votes. Let's get this over with before we get to the convention. Let's get a nominee and move forward.

LEMON: Trump says it's desperate. But I mean does it play to, you know, sort of this entire establishment thing. Doesn't it?

BLACKBURN: Well, yes. This is an outsider year. I said from the get go. This is an outsider year. And this is a year that people in elective office need to be listening to what the voters are saying. And the voters have said we don't like what is happening in Washington. We don't like the special interests and the money in politics and the system as it is. So we want somebody new who hasn't been a part of this. And their -- this is instructive to those of us that are elected to serve. And we need to be listening to our constituents and the voters.

LEMON: So we know this outsider thing is working. At least, it's working for Donald Trump.


LEMON: And you know, --.

BLACKBURN: And for Cruz.

And it's working on the democratic side.

LEMON: And it is working on the Democratic side if you are looking at Bernie Sanders.

BLACKBURN: That's right. With Bernie Sanders.

LEMON: So populous at least. Because Bernie Sanders has been in the Senate for a while. Here's the thing, do you think it is too little too late that maybe Cruz and Kasich should -- you remember because the Kasich camp asked Cruz as the camp --

BLACKBURN: It is too little too late.

LEMON: They said, no.

[23:10:01] BLACKBURN: Yes. It is too little too late. It looks as if they're grasping at the lost straws. And Cruz has run a great campaign. Kasich's run a great campaign. We have had wonderful candidates on our side. And I think that somebody, either Trump or Cruz, will lock this up before we get to the convention. And then we'll focus on the issues.

LEMON: You took way my question. So you said Trump or Cruz.


LEMON: Do you think, though, that said, do you think this will be a contested convention?

BLACKBURN: No, I don't.

LEMON: You don't?

BLACKBURN: No I don't. I think that somebody is going to get this locked-up the convention. And that's what people want to see. They want us to focus on the issues. National security, job and economic security.

LEMON: Isn't it mathematically impossible for Cruz to get there?

BLACKBURN: One would think it is, but you know what? There are all sorts of alliances and deals that get worked and we'll see where this takes us.

LEMON: That's exactly what Donald Trump is fighting against. He says, you know, it's all rigged and it is dirty politics and all these alliances.

BLACKBURN: Trump may end up with the votes. We'll see how tomorrow goes. I call tomorrow the feisty five. Not Super Tuesday.

LEMON: Tell me why.

BLACKBURN: Because these are states that they are excited. Listen to what they're saying about Rhode Island. You know, you've got record turnouts. You got record numbers of individuals that are changing their voter registration. There is lot of attention being put on these eastern states. And they generally don't have that in presidential primary. And so they're relevant. They're going to have a say. They're going to weigh in on this. And so, I think tomorrow is going to be a very feisty, a very feisty primary day.

LEMON: Does it concern you at all about, you know Donald Trump if he doesn't get the nod and his supporters maybe just walking out? What do you think that will do to the party?

BLACKBURN: First of all, I think this is an incredible opportunity for the Republican Party to build a bigger tent. And they ought to be doing that. You know, go back and think about Reagan. And when you read back through 76 and 80 with Reagan and what transpired during that four years. And you have a lot of these Reagan Democrats that are coming back in to the Republican Party this election cycle, many of them have not voted since they last voted for Reagan. And they are fed up with what is going on in Washington and they're saying, OK, I love my country enough to be mad about this. I want you all to get your act together. And they're coming back to vote. I think it's exciting.

LEMON: It's been interesting.

BLACKBURN: I think it's been incredibly exciting.

LEMON: It is an exciting and interesting so far now. Imagine, wait until the convention comes and then of course Election Day.

BLACKBURN: You got it.

BLACKBURN: Thank you, congresswoman. Always a pleasure.

BLACKBURN: So good to be with you.

LEMON: Yes. It is good to have you.

BLACKBURN: Thank you.

LEMON: Yes. I will see you soon.

Make sure you stay with CNN all day for all day coverage of the crucial primaries in the five states tomorrow. Voters going to the polls in Connecticut, Delaware, Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Rhode Island. We will be covering all the angles. You don't call it super Tuesday. You call it feisty five. You heard the congresswoman.

When we come right back, did one of Bernie Sanders celebrity supporters cross the line when she blasted Hillary Clinton?

And Beyonce's lemonade, the story behind the new album everyone is talking about tonight.


[23:11:49] LEMON: We're just hours away from the first Super Tuesday votes, 384 Democratic delegates are at stake across five states. Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders battling for every last one of them.

Here to discuss, our CNN political contributor Van Jones, CNN political commentator Bob Beckel and CNN political contributor Maria Cardona, a super delegate committed to Hillary Clinton. Bob Beckel, I'm glad you wore your lemon suspenders.


LEMON: Don Lemon. Looks like you took a highlight torte suspenders.

BECKEL: OK. Let's go on.


LEMON: Hillary Clinton is clearly trying to turn her sights to the general election and Donald Trump today, she took aim at his lavish lifestyle. Listen.


HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: At some point, if you want to be president of the United States, you got to get familiar with the United States. You have to spend time with Americans of all sorts and backgrounds in every part of our country. Don't just fly that big jet in and land it and go make a big speech and insult everybody you can think of. And then go back, get on that big jet and go back to, you know, your country clubhouse in Florida or your pent house in New York.


LEMON: She's very animated, Van Jones. I mean, she may be the front- runner but she really know, it hasn't wrapped up this nomination yet. Why take on Donald Trump now?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, you can kill two birds with one stone. You fire up that base when you go after Donald Trump. This guy is negatives are off the charts for every carbon base life form. But for Democrats, the new territory is being charted every day in term of just complete disgust and (INAUDIBLE) at Donald Trump. So she can fire up her own base, lift her own numbers, and also prepare herself at the general election. But I think that is smart strategy.

LEMON: And so, but how wise is it, Maria, for her to split her focus before nailing down this nomination? Because, you know, Bernie Sanders has had more staying power than you and Hillary Clinton realize. Am I lying?

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No. Absolutely. But, look, I do think it's a good strategy. Because if you listen to Bernie Sanders during this campaign, there has been plenty of time when he has gone after Donald Trump, too. And it's a good strategy for him as well. I think it helps Hillary to focus Democrats at the end of the day. That is our biggest challenge. Right?

What is going on between the Democratic Party, yes, it's passionate, yes, it's gotten really rowdy and sometimes it's gotten nasty. But it's no comparison to our eye on the prize which is in November, the fight that we are going to have to fight against who I presume is going to be the Republican nominee, Donald Trump, it's going to be ugly. And we should hold our firepower to make sure that that is our focus.

LEMON: Well, she was going right after him. I mean, she was very animated. You have seen her like that before?

CARDONA: I thought she was terrific. She is kind of in her element. And I think that while not taking anything for granted, right, let's make sure to be very clear that she is fighting for every vote. Tomorrow in these five states that are very important, she is focused on getting all of the votes.

LEMON: I want to play another clip. This is one is from an online attack ad that Clinton campaign released this weekend. Here it is.


TRUMP: At the right time, I will be so presidential. You will be so bored.

They're bringing drugs. Their bringing crime. They're rapists.

I use the word anchor baby.

[23:20:07] CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC ANCHOR: Should the woman be punished?

TRUMP: There should be some form of punishment.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, AC 360: Will you say you don't want David Duke's vote or other white supremacist?

TRUMP: I don't know anything about white supremacist, so I don't know.

Knock the crap out of them would you? Punch him in the face. I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters.


LEMON: Listen, Bob, Donald Trump has his hands full getting his own nomination. He's in a slugfest over on the Republican side. But how long do you expect him to stay silent about attacks like this.

BECKEL: Well, I mean, to say it sound (INAUDIBLE). But I bet, you better get used to it. There is so much take to put ads together like that. It is like you are in bit bigger problems was would but you are not going to put on.

So, by the way, going back to Hillary, look. The last thing she needs to do now after New York is have a fight with Bernie Sanders. It's time to start that healing process. And it's not at all unusual for frontrunners to turn their attention to the Republican frontrunners for Democratic Party. So it is a logical thing to do. It is a smart thing to do. I agree with what Van who put it together with. But I'll tell you, Trump is just -- I just can't wait. I mean, it's just -- the guy has given us more material than all presidential campaigns put together. Can you imagine? I mean, (INAUDIBLE), get mad about it, Don, because you're going to see it over at your owned words, we don't have to make the up.

LEMON: Wait until you see what he does, though.

BECKEL: What is he going to do? LEMON: Bob? Really? Have you met Donald Trump?

BECKEL: I met Donald Trump. And I know Roger Stone. I know what they think they can do. You have a wounded dog like this man, you can't hunt it.

LEMON: Listen, I know Hillary Clinton knows media. But, I mean, Donald Trump is a master when it comes to media.

In the meantime, let's stick to the Democratic side. Bernie Sanders, you know, is actually being bullied to drop out of race, right? But I want to talk about his supporters, they are complaining that they're under attack, too. I want you to listen to the actor and Sanders supporter Rosario Dawson on the campaign rally. Because Bob, you mentioned healing. The healing needs to begin. But listen to this.


ROSARIO DAWSON, BERNIE SANDERS SUPPORTER: We're literally under attack for not just supporting the other candidate. Now, I'm with Monica Lewinsky with this. Bullying is bad. She has actually dedicated her life now to talking about that. And now as a campaign strategy, we are being bullied.


LEMON: Van? That's not even --

JONES: That was hot. But first, let me just say, full disclosure, Rosario is a good friend mine. I think there is a picture of me and her in Prince together.

But listen, that was a fast brush-back pitch I think trying to stop some of the things that have been going on. It has gotten very, very tough on Sanders supporters. There has been a lot of aggressive online stuff. It had gone to a different level. And if she is trying to do a brush-back pitch to say we're doing this until California, calm it down. But I think when you invoke the name of a Monica Lewinsky, I think that's going create more problems than you are solving if you want this party to be able to come together.

LEMON: I got to take a break because Maria, I know you want to respond. You were shaking your head.

CARDONA: Yes, I think actually she did her candidate no favors here. I think there say lot of Bernie Sanders tort supporters and we're seeing this in reporting that are upset about the tone his campaign has taken. And, yes, there is a lot of bullying on both sides. I can show you my twitter feed, Don, right now. And the last minute I am sure there is some nasty stuff from Bernie Sanders supporters. Sometime nastier than what I get from Donald Trump and the Republicans.

LEMON: We should compare twitter feeds. May make us all feel better, right. Well, everybody gets it. All right. Stick around, everybody. When we come back, Bernie

Sanders says he is staying in the race until the end. But what can he accomplish, really?


[23:27:57] LEMON: Bernie Sanders admits he doesn't have an easy path to the nomination. But what is his end game?

Back with me now, Van Jones, Bob Beckel and Maria Cardona.

So Van, you know, he says that this race is - he is in this race until the end. At the same time, his campaign, as I said, is admitting that path through nomination is going to be a tough one. So, why he is hanging on? What does he hope to achieve?

JONES: Well, first of all, California, which is, you know, they vote last and biggest, is a massive - they are massive places there for Bernie Sanders. And I think he wants to hang on long enough to give those people a chance to vote. Give him more delegates, more leverage that when he does go to tot convention, he can get some things done.

Yes, but you know some miracle would have to happen at this point. I mean, listen, everybody gets beat up on twitter when you say it. But at this point the reality is unless there say massive collapse of a Clinton campaign, you know, historic proportions, you know, involve both the FBI and the X files, I mean, I can't imagine the scenario in which she now doesn't get this nomination. He's talking about now how do you get to the convention with leverage?

LEMON: Yes. That was van Jones who said that, not Don Lemon. OK? Because you know how that is. What do you mean? Counting Don out.

All right. So listen. But Bob, you know, the Senator, his supporters are still leveling some pretty nasty attacks against the Clinton camp. If the idea is to have a bigger voice in the party, OK, should he dial back the rhetoric, especially considering what Van just said?

BECKEL: First of all, Bernie can't control to his credit of support. This happens to a lot of presidential campaigns. But I will tell you what I think the end game is the platform. I think he has got to look for two or three platform planks which will be against the trade agreements, which will be against Wall Street and may, may be against Obamacare although I think he will probably lose that. But I think he'd like to get some planks out on to the floor to have a battle, to have a fight and I think he could win them. And then he could say, look. I changed where the Democratic Party was moving too much in the center. And here is the Bernie Sanders platform planks. And even though they don't mean much in the end, it will be a lot to him and the supporters. So I think that is part of the end game. He could change that part.

[23:30:06] LEMON: I want to ask you this. And I don't know if you or Maria, either, because you're a Clinton supporter, right? But let's -- he still has to be a senator. Hillary Clinton is not in office anymore. So if he wants to Brit party together and then let's say he goes back to the Senate and helped to put a Republican in the White House, is that --

CARDONA: Yes. I think that that is something that they have to think about. I do think, though, at the end of the day, he doesn't want to do anything that will help put a Republican in the White House, which is why I really believe that he will change his tone. It doesn't mean he's going to get out. I don't think he should get out. He should go to the very end. Hillary Clinton did. But I think what he should do. And I agree with Bob, you can't control your surrogates. But it's tough when you have to apologize for some of the crazy stuff that your surrogates are saying because it doesn't serve you. But you can also set the tone.

What we have seen also is that some of the rhetoric that Bernie Sanders is using is being picked up by Donald Trump. And I don't think that that is something that Bernie Sanders wants to have under his belt.

JONES: Just a little bit of stuff. First of all, Donald Trump needs no help figuring out when he is going to insult anyone, least of all Hillary Clinton.


CARDONA: No, I agree with you. But he is taking advantage.

JONES: I mean, it does bother some people -- trust me, Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders only praised Hillary Clinton for the rest of his life, he'll find mean things to say. That's what he does. And then also, just to be fair, Hillary Clinton, you know, she has had surrogates that insulted young people and young women. Your surrogates sometimes gets you in trouble. You have to reign them in. They're a mixed blessing.

But what I think, if you - if the Democrats want healing, it takes a Velcro takes two sides to stick, and you got to be even handed it about this. Bernie has made this party better. He made this country better. He made Hillary better. And frankly, he has proven you don't have to stay in this tiny fear based box Democrats have been in for a long time.

CARDONA: I agree. I agree completely, Van. But let me also just say this. Because everyone is talking about how difficult it's going to be to achieve party unity. Let's remember in 2008, I was there. I lived it. I worked for Hillary in 2008. This is the kind of thing that you put your heart and your soul into a campaign. And your candidate loses, your heart and soul are ripped out. You are sad. You are down. And it is tough to think about coming back and trying to support the person that beat your candidate. But guess what? It happened in 2008. Do you remember the pumas? The party unity to my right. That never really, you know, happened. But when Hillary Clinton left the race, 40 percent of her supporters were saying they would never vote for Barack Obama. Today, it's only 25 of Bernie Sanders supporters who say they would never vote for Hillary.

LEMON: Bob, go, ahead. BECKEL: I was going to say, they'll come around. Because it's for

one real reason. All you have to do is say Donald Trump. And that will get people back in the base. The other thing is, I saw the previous guest. I would not be surprised and upset by Sanders in Rhode Island tomorrow. And maybe even Delaware.

JONES: Let me just say one thing. One thing I think that the younger Sanders supporters really don't like to hear is this kind of you guys have to come around anyway. I think for those of us that have been aren't block, who remember 2000 or whatever, we understand it what it is like. I think the young people feel like we're saying you'll have to accept whatever crappy candidate we give you because the other one is worse and they hate that.

I think the better case to be making to the younger voters is to point out how important their generation is to the country. And that they can continue their revolution and it's their revolution that will be better if you stop the Republicans and keep putting pressure on Democrats. I think the way we're talking to these younger vote I think is not working. I think somehow it comes across as, you know, shut up and get in line.

LEMON: We know better than you.


LEMON: Get off my lawn.

CARDONA: That's right. And that language will change. And I also think that Bernie Sanders is going to have a lot to do with it, right. I think that he, again, is not going to want to be the one that people point to say that he helped to put any Republican in the White House. So I think he is going to follow suit to what Hillary Clinton did in 2008 and come around and focus on party --. There's a lot to offer there.

LEMON: I got to say, though, even with, you know, when you say we know better than you. Not to be condescending, but isn't there some truth to that because I had, you know, I celebrated a birthday, I have a same birthday with a 70-year-old person and I have my, you know, much younger birthday. And he said Don, one thing you can't be taught is wisdom. And so old people have wisdom that maybe young people don't have. And it's not all condescending, Van.

BECKEL: Well, Don, you're about to turn 60. I mean, I can get information from you.

Listen. One thing, the candy school came out with a poll to about millennials and they are very important across the board. But they do need to take over this country. One thing that sticks out is they hate Donald Trump. And I think that gives them more wisdom than anybody could possibly imagine.

[23:35:03] LEMON: On this panel, I'm sure everyone agree.

CARDONA: We all agree on that. JONES: Let me say one thing on behalf of the young voters, though.

As wise as we think that we are, as soon as you try to get your laptop to work or your DVR or anything else, you go get those young people. They know something. Thank you.

LEMON: I'm just saying you know. Respect the old people like you all. All three of you. Thank you.

CARDONA: Not you, Don.

LEMON: Coming up, the other big story everyone is talking about tonight, Beyonce's "Lemonade" is queen bee's new block bust are a story of a love triangle or is there much more to it. I say it's the second, there is much more to it.


[23:39:35] LEMON: OK. Here we go. Everybody. Beyonce's latest released dropped this weekend. And speculation has been running wild ever since. It's all about love. It's about empowerment and betrayal. But "Lemonade" is so much more than.

And here to discuss is Kierna Mayo, the editor in-chief of "Ebony" magazine. So good to you have here. Bre Payton, millennial politics and pop culture writer for "the Federalist." You as well, Brie, thank you for coming. And Kamau Bell, host of CNN's "UNITED SHADES OF AMERICA." I'm OK that you're here. But, you know -- no, it's always a pleasure to you have on.

So everybody, everybody is buzzing about "Lemonade."

Let's start - I want to start getting your reaction. Starts to you Kierna. What did you think?

[23:40:16] KIERNA MAYO, EDITOR IN-CHIEF, EBONY MAGAZINE: Oh, my goodness. Don, the woman is (INAUDIBLE), OK. This is such a magical expression, sonically, it is nothing like anything we have heard from her. But visually, really, if you would have put the album on mute, you know, I always say album, you still are brought into such an experience. It's Ethereal. It's warm. And while it's also very aggressive in spaces, to me, there is an undercurrent that just speaks to my black girl center that, for anyone who is not a black girl right now, I kind of feel sorry for you because we are having an internal moment like you would not believe.

LEMON: With that said, Bre, what do you think?

BRE PAYTON, MILLENNIAL POLITICS AND POP CULTURE WRITER, THE FEDERALIST: I think that her album is visually stunning. And I think it's incredible to see how vulnerable that Beyonce makes herself. And I agree that we get to see and hear Beyonce as we have not seen her before. And it truly is stunning and a masterful work of art.

LEMON: Kamau?

W. KAMAU BELL, CNN HOST, UNITED SHADES OF AMERICA: I guess the deciding vote, I'm going to go yes. And as a married man, when I watch the thing it made my palm's sweat. Because if my wife poured my lemonade in the streets, too, I'd be in serious trouble.

LEMON: All right. We are going to talk about that. But let's take a look at the clip that everyone is talking about. Look at this.


LEMON: So, everyone is saying that this is -- what was that?

BELL: That's the 60s.

LEMON: I got you. I got you. I couldn't see you. All right. So listen. What everyone is saying this is about trouble at home with Jay Z or whatever. But isn't this more about a broader statement about black women and empowerment and musical genius and she is just sort of using -- I think she's using that to get people interested. That's just my take here.

MAYO: Yes. I mean, I'm one of those people who -- I'm not so much caught up in the narrative about her marriage. Even though she spend a good deal of time talking about this fractured relationship from the personal. But I think we have to give Beyonce just a little more than.

That first of all, clearly, she is playing to your curiosity, right? We all want to know.

LEMON: Right.

MAYO: But also, I think that when you understand the complexity of relationship and when you understand how, you know, a woman and a man or two people in any kind of love relationship exchange that very often someone is victimized. And I think she is kind of -- this is her rally cry to say, you know, this should not happen and cannot happen. And for the Beyonce --

LEMON: To all women.

MAYO: Right. To all women. To all lovers, right. If you are -- let the Beyonce in you be liberated right now. And you know, Jay Z is the luckiest guy on the planet, if you ask me either way, this --

LEMON: Kamau would disagree.

MAYO: No, I'm serious. I mean that. I mean that in every way. First of all, I refuse to believe that he is not somehow complicit with the larger fact of this project. I mean, it takes a lot to put together this.

LEMON: Absolutely.

MAYO: And I have no doubt that they are like creative references to one another.

LEMON: Yes. MAYO: What has happened and transpired in their relationship, I'm not

even going to speculate on. But I do think that he has an opportunity if, let's say, some of this is true, to save his own life.

LEMON: Yes. I think that sort of dumbs it down a little bit. Good for me. That's just my opinion. I think that you are right. That this goes way beyond that and we should be looking at the higher value in this and not just like ooh he is cheating on her?

MAYO: This is genius. You can't miss some of what is at play here. I don't think every time she references her -- the ring, it's her ring.

LEMON: Right. I want to get this in because this is Beyonce, features the mothers of Trayvon Martin, Eric Garner and then another mother. People who were killed by police officers or just black men killed. Take a look at this.


LEMON: And that's Michael Brown's mother there (INAUDIBLE) there as well.

So listen. I want to - let's look at. OK. Here's what Pierce Morgan said. Pierce Morgan wrote in the "Daily Mail," he said I have a huge personal sympathy for both women. But I felt very uneasy watching these women being used in this way to sell an album. It smacks of shameless exploitation. I prefer the old Beyonce, the one that didn't use grieving mothers to ship records and further fill her already massively enriched purse.

What do you think of that, Bre?

[23:45:30] PAYTON: So I don't think that she is using these women to sell albums and make money because I think she already has enough money and she doesn't really need to do that for this. But I do think it is telling the changing tone from 2008, the year that Obama was inaugurate and kind of the hopeful anecdotes that she said to Pierce Morgan, that she was hopeful for the future and hopeful for racial tensions and relations to improve, right. Those are things that she said in the interview in 2008. And today now she is reminding us that those issues haven't been fixed and a lot of the promises that Obama made when he was first inaugurated when he was running for president have not come true.

And I think she speaks for many Americans who feel the same way that Obama has not fulfilled his campaign promise that's he said in 2008. So I think that it's not really an issue of exploiting these people as much as it's highlighting a problem that existed in 2008 and exists still today and has not been fixed.

LEMON: Kamau?

BELL: I don't remember hearing the word Obama on "Lemonade." I can listen to it again? I think we were hopeful in 2008 including Obama and now we sort of have been smacked in the face with reality. So I don't buy this is about Obama. It is more about Jay Z than Obama as about anybody.

But I certainly think that Pierce Morgan just sounds like an old British white guy. He likes it when a black woman or (INAUDIBLE) and just want to dance. And she dances in the video but she also has a perspective. And those women, he is taking their agency away by saying that she is using them. As if those women didn't agree to be in the video. She didn't grab those pictures off Instagram. They decided they went there and shot the video.

LEMON: Kierna?

MAYO: Beyonce is a black mother in this country. There is absolutely no way that you can look at this the way that Pierce Morgan did and see as purely as exploitative. She is relating. Simple as that. I just really -- you know, I resent when the Pierce Morgans of the world even feel that they need to make commentary in moments like. This think we're just as fine without that kind of analysis. First of all, it threatens to throw something in the mix that wasn't even there. And it smacks of a serious kind of white supremacist patriarchy which says my opinions matter and your art doesn't. I'm not with that.

BELL: Yes. If Pierce Morgan was still relevant, he have this time slot right now, Don.

MAYO: Come on.

LEMON: OK. We'll continue this conversation right after the break. Don't go anywhere.


[23:51:46] LEMON: We're back now with Kierna Mayo, Bre Payton and W. Kamau Bell.

I want you guys to take a look at this because Beyonce has a reference to Malcolm X in the video.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The most unprotected person in America is a black woman. The most neglected person in Americas the black woman.


LEMON: Kamau, you said she has graduated to Boss status and he is now in charge of black people. That's what you said.

BELL: I think she's leading the culture. I mean, it is like -- I certainly think she is a voice for women. And I'm happy that women have her as a voice. But I think she is the most relevant pop star. And she's hit that, like, top level Oprah status where it's like tell us what to do next, Beyonce. I really think that she is, you know, a lot of pop stars just sort of go hits, hit song, obscurity, or hit song, hit song, Vegas. Where Beyonce is going hit song, hit song and relevantly leading the culture. And not everybody wants to step up to that. So I think it was a big deal. Clearly, we'll have her until she's a very old woman and I appreciate that. She is going to be relevant for a long time.

LEMON: Bre, do you agree with that?

PAYTON: Yes. I agree. I think that, you know, in this album we're getting to see Beyonce really speak for herself and develop her own voice and get to tell her story and talk about what happened with her marriage, but also talk about feminity and what it means to be a feminist and behave like a feminist in the modern era in today's times. So I think that her work is really important and that she indeed sets the cultural tone for women.

LEMON: So you mentioned her marriage. Let's talk. You remember the whole elevator thing, right?

PAYTON: Right.

LEMON: They said that is possibly over cheating. I think this video or movie is bigger than, you know, whether it's cheating. I made that perfectly clear. I think we made that clear as well. But, you know, it does talk about that. If you believe that's part of it, then you believe that's part of it. She also hints at this woman who is known as Becky with the good hair. Listen.


LEMON: OK. So they are speculating that possibly, possibly allegedly may have been the fashion designer Rachael Ray. They had to cancel an appearance in New York. They got a hold of her Wikipedia page to make here I think it was her Instagram page private because of that. And then she tweeted out that I respect love, marriages, family and strength. Noting that she wouldn't stand for bullying. She thinks that she is being bullied, I don't know if it is by Beyonce or is it by Beyonce's fans? Kierna, what is going on here?

MAYO: I mean maybe she's eluding to both, you know. I'm not 100 percent certain. I really hate the speculation around. I just, you know, you parse apart the lyrics and we assign scenarios to them. Sometimes you're right. Sometimes you're not. There is such a greater thing at play here. We moved on from that Malcolm X drop.

LEMON: You want to talk about that Malcolm X drop. No, no. I want you to go there.

MAYO: She is a feminist and a black feminist. And this moment, and the reason she's leading the culture, if you will, like Kamau says, has more to do with her black identity being front and center and the politics that surround that as a black woman. So I don't think that you can extract that from any analysis of Beyonce.

Becky with the good hair, if you ask me, also has other metaphors. I mean in the sister community, Becky also is Becky. So --

[23:55:18] BELL: That means a white girl.


MAYO: Yes. So, you know --

BELL: As a man married to a Becky, I heard that before.

MAYO: I hate that Rachael has to be, you know, the center of anything at this point because whatever has happened between she and that crew needs to stay between them. But, you know, if you make your way to a Beyonce lyric, I guess --

BELL: I just feel sorry for Rachael Ray.

LEMON: Listen --

BELL: That's how big the Beyonce beehive is.

LEMON: Listen. I want to talk about the United States of America now, right, because we have been talking a lot about race, Kamau. And you premier over the weekend about 900,000 people watched. This was tweeted out. Remember today's racists usually don't wear robes or burn crosses. You say comedy was one of the ways that you were able to connect with the KKK member. So how did that help? And would you do that again?

BELL: I mean, I think there is more places question go than sending me back to a Klan meeting. I think, you know, maybe in season eight or something if you don't mind, CNN. But I think that comedy was able to disarm them not literally but figuratively. And I think if you disarm people figuratively, you sometimes disarm them literally, you know. So I think that I showed up. There were guns. But I was able to have conversations with them and just let them talk in ways that you don't normally see on TV. And I know some black people have feelings about that. My timeline attest to that. But I think that if it had just been a KKK documentary, I don't know that many people would have watched it.

LEMON: All right. Thank you. Great conversation as always. We'll see you soon.

That's it for us to night. Make sure you stay with CNN for all day coverage of Super Tuesday.

Good night.