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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Clinton Targets Trump as Sanders Make New Pitch for Super Delegates; Indiana Could Make-or-Break GOP Candidates; Who Could be Trump's Running Mate. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired May 2, 2016 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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[11:30:51] SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I), VERMONT & DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As of today, we have now won 17 states, primaries and caucuses.

(CHEERING)

SANDERS: And if you can help us bring out a large voter turnout tomorrow, Indiana will be the 18th victory.

(CHEERING)

SANDERS: We have now received some nine million votes --

(CHEERING)

SANDERS: And surprise, surprise, in recent national polls, some of us have -- some of them have us a few points ahead or a few points behind Secretary Clinton. We have closed that 60-point gap.

(CHEERING)

SANDERS: And what to me has been extremely gratifying is we, in this movement, this political revolution, are defining the ideas for America and for the Democratic Party.

(CHEERING)

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KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Right there, Bernie Sanders making the pitch in Indiana ahead of tomorrow's crucial primary, we need you, we need you to turn out. That is the big message. The Democrats candidates are now locked in a very tight race in tomorrow's primary. The new "Wall Street Journal/NBC/Maris poll shows Clinton is leading Sanders by four points, 50-46 at this moment. Clinton is decidedly turning her focus to the general election and Donald Trump, while Sanders is making a new pitch to those ever important super delegates.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: We better talk about this. Joining us now, CNN political commentators, Errol Louis, Bill Press; CNN commentator, Bakari Sellers; and David Wasserman, house editor and political analyst for the "Cook Political Report."

David, you did such a good job setting the stage for Indiana for the Republicans. Do it for the Democrats. What is the significance of Indiana now in the Democratic race?

DAVID WASSERMAN, HOUSE EDITOR & POLITICAL ANALYST, COOK POLITICAL REPORT: Almost nothing. The psychology of Democratic primary voters and a lot of the media has been detached from reality of delegate math for a long time. This race has been over for over a month. It's preposterous that Bernie Sanders has a path to the majority of delegates. And it's noteworthy that his share of the vote in these primaries seems to be picking up. His share in the national poll is picking up. And the big question is, how badly does Bernie Sanders want Hillary Clinton to beat Donald Trump. Because the sooner he gets behind Hillary Clinton, the better chance Clinton has of unifying the party.

BOLDUAN: Bill Press, over for more than a month.

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BOLDUAN: I'm looking at you, Bill.

BILL PRESS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's a good thing we're not sitting in the same studio, that's all I can say.

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BOLDUAN: Watch out, Dave.

PRESS: Let me just say this. First, I would not be the one to tell the people of Indiana that their vote does not count tomorrow. I'll leave that to David Wasserman but --

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Even though people have been saying that for every election previously.

PRESS: I hope you heard what Bernie said when he was just talking in that little clip a moment ago. Not a clip but his live comments. He talked about this political revolution, this movement. You notice he didn't say this campaign. And you have to understand that about Bernie. He is in it and he has to win the nomination but even if the odds of that are slim or possible, he wants to reshape the Democratic Party and he wants to shape the Democratic platform.

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BOLDUAN: But, Bill, that's almost impossible at this point.

PRESS: No, not for that.

BOLDUAN: OK.

PRESS: That's why he is going to continue, on the principle every Democrat in every state should be able to vote to amass as many delegates as he can. The more delegates he has, the more he's able to influence the platform and the party moving forward. That's what it's all about. So I'm sorry, David, he ain't going to quit.

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BERMAN: So, Bakari --

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WASSERMAN: Neither am I.

BERMAN: Thank goodness, because we'd have a black space over there.

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BOLDUAN: Our "Brady Bunch" wouldn't work so well.

BERMAN: Bakari Sellers, what does it mean to you that what Bernie Sanders is sticking it out. He also has new language also, right? Because over the weekend, he was saying that super delegates in states that Bernie Sanders won, he wants them to come and vote for Bernie Sanders.

[11:35:21] BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That's fine. First, he has every right to stay in this race as long as possible. I mean, he has earned that right. He won some states. He built momentum. He has thousands of people to come out to rally, so he has the ability to stay in. But what Bernie Sanders has not said is he is not winning in a raw vote count or player's delegate count and not winning in the category, so there's no "me" trick by which Bernie Sanders is winning this race, and this race is politically over.

The question is whether or not Bernie Sanders movement and message lives on, and I think it does have the ability to live on. But there's going to be a point in time when he has to work equally as hard. Similar to Hillary Clinton in 2008 in bringing this party together, and I think we're starting to see that. I think instead of making attacks against Hillary Clinton, we're talking about it again. Secretary Clinton and many others are licking their chops, getting ready for Donald Trump.

BOLDUAN: Licking our chops, getting ready for Donald Trump. OK.

But first, before then, Errol, it doesn't look like that message, if it's transitioning to get behind Hillary, you're not hearing that from the Sanders campaign. You obviously heard Bernie Sanders say, I should get all the super delegates from the states I carry. On Friday, we spoke to his campaign manager, Jeff Weaver, and he said we're not calling Clinton super delegates. We're only calling the non-declared, undeclared super delegates.

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR; To the extent he makes a deal or bargain or arrangement or impact on the Democratic party going forward, his maximum point of leverage has not been reached just yet. And it's trying to make it as good as he can tomorrow or all the way through California. And then go to the convention and try to make an arrangement.

There's two things to keep in mind. First of all, he's got a lot of great matrixes and it great to have nine million votes and leave the other person with 12 million --

(LAUGHTER)

-- which is the case. But also the fund-raising is slowing down, $27 million as opposed to $44 million.

BOLDUAN: A significant drop.

LOUIS: A significant drop. So the donors are starting to tell him something and he has to take that into account. The second thing is he is still a Senator. He's the ranking member of the Budget Committee. If the Democrats take the Senate back, he's going to have a lot of power. He has to factor that in, what kind of influence do you have, and where you have it is kind of a broad question. It's not simply a matter of, do I give a speech at the convention or do I get a plank in the party platform. He has a future to think about and that's going to be a part of the conversation.

BERMAN: Errol Louis, you got the approval of Bill Press there.

Errol, Dave Wasserman, Bill, it's great to have you.

Bakari Sellers, thank you so much for being with us. We really appreciate it.

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BOLDUAN: Thanks guys. Thank you.

BERMAN: I feel under the weather. The words aren't coming.

BOLDUAN: You're grunting throughout the show. It's fine.

BERMAN: Donald Trump hoping to unleash a blow to Ted Cruz's campaign tomorrow in Indian. What if Trump wins? Would that mean it's all over? We'll break down what is at stake with some key Indiana figures. That's coming up.

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[11:42:57] BERMAN: All eyes on Indiana as voters head to the polls in less than 24 hours. Could be make-or-break, do-or-die, the last stand.

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BERMAN: It's a final shot for Hoosiers. For Ted Cruz and John Kasich, they need to prevent Donald Trump from having a wide-open path to the nomination.

(CROSSTALK) BOLDUAN: Let's discuss. Joining us now, Matthew Tully, political columnist for the "Indianapolis Star"; and Pete Seat, the former White House spokesman and former communications director for the Indiana Republican Party. He also worked as a consultant to the John Kasich campaign there.

Gentlemen, it's great to see you.

First, Matthew, what is the state of play? You get a very different read when we talked to the Donald Trump and Ted Cruz campaigns at the top of the show. What are you seeing one day out?

MATTHEW TULLY, POLITICAL COLUMNIST, THE INDIANAPOLIS STAR: It sure seems Donald Trump will carry the state pretty easily. We learned not to trust polls completely anymore, at least this year. But the momentum is on his side. And the Cruz campaign it just seems like they came in here a week ago and they have done a lot of things that seemed desperate and I don't think that's played very well.

BERMAN: Pete, do you agree with that? No one likes the smell of desperation.

PETE SEAT, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, INDIANA REPUBLICAN PARTY & FORMER WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: Yeah, I mean, you just look at that, NBC/"Wall Street Journal"/Maris poll that has the gap widening rather than narrowing. I asked Carly Fiorina about that on my podcast this morning and her response is to lash out at the credibility and reliability of NBC and "Wall Street Journal" in their polling, and she said they had been wrong over and over and over and over. She said it four times to make her point. So you can tell they feel they're losing this on the ground and they have to lash at polls.

BOLDUAN: Matthew, we talked about this with some of commentator as well. Indiana, on paper, is Cruz country. Conservatives, an influential evangelical community, and talked about Carly Fiorina and announced the running mate in Indiana, and the sitting governor, Mike Pence, has said he was going to vote for him. Poll numbers obviously showing something different. What do you see went wrong for him?

TULLY: So first of all, I found that Bobby Knight endorsement still means more than a gubernatorial endorsement. That's one thing.

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[11:45:15] TULLY: I think, in the end, this is a more complex state politically than some people give it credit for.

BOLDUAN: Thank you for saying that, Matthew. Thank you.

TULLY: In recent years, Republicans at times have nominated certain candidates in the primary in the general election, though the state leans right, have said, wait, that goes too far and puts a Democrats in one of the Senate seats. And I think what you're seeing is just a very complex and political scene and no one really fits the mold of Indiana right now.

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TULLY: If any candidate sums up mood, it's Mitch Daniels, the most popular political candidate of the last 25 years. Evan Bayh would be right up there. Those are guys that lean left or they lean right but, in the end, they're more in the middle.

BERMAN: Pete, let me ask you, Mitch Daniels and Bayh are out of politics right now. But the governor, Mike Pence, still in politics. That endorsement, if you can call it endorsement, is sort of being ridiculed around the rest of the country, but how did it play in Indiana?

SEAT: There were a lot of shrugs. People trying to figure out why he did it in the 11th hour the way he did. He has an opportunity today to redeem himself and to be a little more forthcoming and earnest in his endorsement. He's going to be on the campaign trail with Ted Cruz today. And will hopefully make 180-degree turn from that tepid endorsement we saw Friday and really give a full-throated reason and rational for why he is supporting Ted Cruz but it may be too little too late.

BOLDUAN: We'll be watching that very, very closely.

Pete, Matthew, thank you so much.

TULLY: Thank you.

SEAT: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thanks guys.

So, thanks, but no thanks. That's what some top Republicans are saying when asked about potentially being Donald Trump's running mate. Senator Lindsey Graham -- yes, you probably remember Donald Trump and Lindsey Graham not the best of friends. He put it this way, "That's like buying a ticket on the Titanic." So who would sail with Donald Trump? That's ahead.

BERMAN: Also coming up for us, in an exclusive interview with CNN, President Obama reveals what was going through his mind when the U.S. sent in Navy SEALS to kill Osama bin Laden.

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[11:51:32] BOLDUAN: So Ted Cruz, he's announced his running mate, albeit unusual so early in the race and for someone not considered the front runner. What about the front-runner, Donald Trump? He has to be thinking about potential running mates. Who would he pick?

BERMAN: Patrick Healy knows. He, of "The New York Times," has done some reporting on this, asking potential picks what they might do, talking to some in the campaign itself.

Patrick, thank you so much for being with us.

Really interesting article. You know, what's most interesting is every four years, every potential candidate is like, no, no, I would never take the job, I would never take it. I would love it. But none of them mean it. This time, you get the sense that some of them really do mean it. They don't want to take it. They won't take it. Who's saying no and why?

PATRICK HEALY, POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: You're right on, John. People who ran for president, like Jeb Bush and Scott Walker, who are in pretty important battleground states, and, you know, there's no love lost between Trump and those guys, but also, people like John Kasich and Nikki Haley, and some other Republicans who are telegraphing they may eventually come into a tent with Trump. They may kind of look to make some peace there, but they don't want to be considered a running mate.

The tricky thing here is that to what degree does that really hold up for months on end? These people ultimately come around.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. There still are a number of people who said they are open to consideration, Newt Gingrich, Jeff Sessions, Ben Carson, Chris Christie. Those folks endorsed him, and -- maybe not Newt Gingrich -- but spoken supportively of them. Mary Fallon of Oklahoma. That was an interesting one. Why might she be a good pick?

HEALY: It's interesting. Trump is -- Republican nominees traditional have been winning with white women since 1996 and Trump right now, according to one poll, is down double digits to Hillary Clinton with white women. So the thought is that a traditional Republican nominee going up against the great possibility of the first female Democratic nominee would look at least at female running mates and would pick one. Governor Mary Fallon is someone who said positive things about Donald Trump, who is someone who has kind of long experience in government with legislation. She was briefly kind of a member of Congress. So she brings some things to the table.

The question is sort of who would fit with Donald Trump and who would he be comfortable with. I mean, he's really looking for someone who he -- you know how Trump works. He gets a gut instinct on people and sizes them up and see how he would fit with them. He doesn't know Governor Fallon particularly well. He's praised her a little bit in the past. But we kept hearing more and more was someone like Chris Christie or Rick Scott from Florida or John Kasich even, maybe someone that Trump would look at more closely.

BERMAN: All we know is he wants someone with government experience, which is interesting, in and of itself, this election year.

Patrick Healy, great reporting. Thank you so much for being with us.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

HEALY: Thank you.

[11:54:46] BOLDUAN: Moments ago, relatives of the music icon, Prince, they met in court to decide what to do with his estate, which includes a vault that has yet to be opened, and even family say they don't know what's inside. Prince's half brother is now speaking to CNN.

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BOLDUAN: Five years ago today, SEAL Team Six flew into Pakistan killing Osama bin Laden. In a new CNN special airing tonight, for the first time, President Obama talks about that raid from the inside the Situation Room.

CNN's Peter Bergen talks about what he says he hoped crossed the terrorist leader's mind when the SEALs found him.

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PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: The last person that bin Laden saw on earth was an American.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And hopefully, at that moment, he understood that the American people hadn't forgotten the some 3,000 people who he killed.

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BERMAN: Join CNN tonight for "We Got Him: President Obama, bin Laden, and the Future of the War on Terror." That's tonight, 8:00 eastern, right here on CNN.

BOLDUAN: Thank you so much for joining us AT THIS HOUR.

BERMAN: "Legal View" with Ashleigh Banfield starts now.