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CNN LIVE EVENT/SPECIAL
Trump and Sanders Win Indiana; Ted Cruz Drops Out of the Race; Sanders Speaks Live to CNN After Indiana Win. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired May 3, 2016 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00] AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And yet, I don't know where he stands on unions, wage supports, exactly the function of how he would punish these companies. There are so many questions he hasn't answered about how he would bring back jobs to America. And I think Hillary could eat his lunch on that.
KEVIN MADDEN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And the real shift will be whether or not Hillary Clinton who has tried to run to the left of the socialists now and trying to appeal to these disaffected Republicans, all of the sudden starts to become the centrist where that she didn't, she and the Clinton brand always previously was historically.
NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: I think sort of an overlay on that from the Clinton campaign and Democrats more broadly. I think they're going to try to run sort of the man campaign that you saw from Democrats in 2012. Essentially casting Romney. They'll cast Trump as sort of a throwback to an era that wasn't so inclusive. I mean, even his slogan is make America great again. For many Americans, America, you know, sort of the good old days weren't so good. So I think that's a contrast they're going to try to make. Try suggest that Obama was sort of a symbolic shift and that Clinton herself would continue that symbolic shift in terms of cultural expansion.
S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That's what's going to be so interesting about, about this particular general election I wrote about this today in the "New York Daily News." That we have am sometimes feminist icon, Hillary Clinton, facing more often than not time chauvinist man, and they're both leading with gender. As Nia- Malika pointed out last week, Trump is obsessed with his own masculinity. He leads with his virility and his masculinity.
Hillary Clinton does not shy away from using the woman card. She's used it often. She's used in very exploitative obvious ways. You know, explaining that she wouldn't be a third term of Obama because she's a woman without explaining what her policy differences would be. They're not either of them are not afraid to go to very overt gender identity politics to sort of court their voters. Now the ironic thing is they both need the opposite of the voters that they're courting. Hillary Clinton needs to win with men. She's got women. Donald Trump needs to get more women. She's got the man vote. He's got the dudes. And instead, they're really leading with their own, sort of, you know --
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think by emphasizing by emphasizing this issue of stability, of experience that she is going to try and make that outreach. One thing I would say, Kevin, was a good line on Hillary. The truth is she hasn't tried to run to the left of the socialists, which is why there are some people on the left of the Democratic party who are still unhappy with her candidacy, but that may actually position her better in a general election.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To the left, she's just not authentic progressive warrior.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: She has to do what Obama did to Romney. Which is she has to preempt Donald Trump's narrative with her own. And what you guys did or your pack did, what he did on capital was so effective. And in hurting Mitt Romney, as you know, Kevin, that I think the Clinton campaign needs to do that --
H: Right now.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: I believe we have Senator Sanders standing by, let's go to Jake Tapper for that, Jake.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks so much, Anderson. Senator Sanders, congratulations, thanks for joining us, are you there?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (via telephone): Yes, I'm right here, thank you very much.
TAPPER: So it was a hard fought victory. Here's an uncomfortable question. Even with that this victory, even now, it's a tough path to get to the nomination. How will you do it?
SANDERS: Well Jeff, first of all, first let me than the people of Indiana. I know that the Clinton campaign and a lot of the media have decided that the campaign was over, but apparently the people of Indiana did not quite agree with that. We're going to be in West Virginia next week. We think we have a shot to win that. We're going to be in Kentucky the following week. We think we've got a shot to win that. We're going to go to Oregon. We got a shot to win that. So we understand, as you just indicated, that it's an uphill fight for us. But you know what, I started this campaign 60 points behind Secretary Clinton. We've been fighting uphill from day one. We will continue to fight uphill, and I think we still have on narrow path toward victory.
TAPPER: Just to -- this is Jake Tapper you're talking to I'm not sure you knew that.
SANDERS: I'm sorry, Jake.
TAPPER: No, no, it's OK. Jeff Zeleny talks to you a lot also. One of the issues that you discussed in Indiana, a lot, and it obviously fits in with one of your campaign messages on trade, but one of the issues you talk about a lot is had to do with the corporate decision to relocate hundreds, if not thousands of jobs from Indiana to Mexico. You said a few days ago, quote, I intend to do everything I can to prevent united technologies from starting down their plants in Indianapolis and Huntington from throwing 2100 American workers out on the street and moving to Mexico where they're going to pay people there three dollars an hour. This not acceptable. That this is the kind of corporate behavior that's destroying the middle class of the country. And you are going to and that you said. How, how do you and it?
[23:05:05] SANDERS: Yes, well for a start, here's an example. And I don't think the American people are comfortable with this. You have a company called United Technologies, a few years ago, when their CEO left, they gave him a severance package of $171 million. The plants that they have here in Indiana are profitable plants. No one denies that the workers are very productive, but the quality of the work is higher. But they can make more money by running to Mexico. Now it turns out that United Technologies also gets about $6 billion in the defense contracts. You know what, I think the American people and the tax payers of this country would like to know that the corporations who receive tax payer dollars from the Defense Department or from other agencies, treat their working people with some respect. So my message to United Technology is, I will work with other members of the Senate to say, you know what, you're not going to get defense contractors when you have such contempt for the working people who grew your company and made you billions of dollars a year on profits.
TAPPER: so you would target specifically United Technologies?
SANDERS: Not only United Technologies.
TAPPER: All companies that outsource jobs would not get any contracts?
SANDERS: Look, what we have right now is an economy in which corporate greed in fact is destroying the middle class. Where these large corporations if they can make another nickel by moving to China, They Will Move to China. Meanwhile, millions of people today are working longer hours, for lower wages in the middle class in this country has been in decline for 35 years. I don't think the American people want to see that anymore. They want some moral responsibility on the part of corporate America to respect their employees, to respect the consumers of this country.
TAPPER: I would like to -- I'm not taking issue with what you're aspiring for, I'm wondering, how do you force these companies to stop shipping jobs overseas?
SANDERS: Well for start, you use the leverage of the United States government house. Right now with United Technologies, you say, you want government contracts, well, you know what, if you want government contracts, start treating your workers with respect. I'll give you an example of this, last year, I worked with some other Senators and House Members to say that contractors with the federal government should pay workers a living wage. And we have some success. We put pressure on them. Our president Obama -- I can't remember exactly -- I think it was an $11, at least to raise the minimum wage, so that any contractor with the federal government pays at least $11 -- now I want to go higher and I want to see that $15 an hour --
TAPPER: Right it would be15.
SANDERS: -- but that's how you use leverage. Contractors want, needless to say, to make profits by working with the federal government.
TAPPER: Fair enough.
SANDERS: And you say to them, be good corporate citizens, respect your employees.
TAPPER: Let me ask you a question, now that the general election season is under way for the Republicans, the RNC declared the Donald Trump is the presumptive nominee, are you a feeling pressure from Democrats to get behind Hillary Clinton in any way?
SANDERS: Well obviously, you know, we've taken on the Democratic establishment from day one. And I'm sure the Democratic establishment in the Clinton campaign would have loved for me not to exist, and not have been in this campaign to have gotten out yesterday. We won in Indiana today. I think we're going to win some more good victories. And look, if you look at polling now, there are very interesting things, you're asking the American people. Do they think that the primary contest in the Democratic Party, why did they unlike the Republican party, has been productive? That's help the Democratic Party. People overwhelmingly say yes. And I think it is basically irresponsible and extremely undemocratic to say, what to the people of West Virginia and Kentucky, Oregon, California our largest state that they should not have the right to cast a ballot to determine who the president of the United States will be or what the agenda of the Democrat Party will be. I think that's pretty crazy stuff.
TAPPER: Senator Sanders --
SANDERS: Sorry, yes.
TAPPER: I was just going to say, I want to let my colleague Dana Bash ask a question while you're here.
DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Senator, just picking up on what you were just talking about, that's a totally understandable argument that the Democratic voters and all of the upcoming states should have a chance for their voices to be heard, but tonight we have a new political reality, as Jake was just saying, where you have a presumptive Republican nominee and a general election for him is very much beginning. You said earlier tonight about Donald Trump, "This is a man who does not have the demeanor, does not have the policy background or the ideas to become the president of the United States." So --
BASH: Staying in this race, aren't you effectively making it harder for the Democrats to beat the man who you say would be so bad. [23:10:00] SANDERS: Well, you have already conceded the race for me.
And I don't except that concession. Thank you Dana, but I don't quite agree with you. We are in this race to win. And what I have said time and time again is what our campaign has succeeded in doing in a way that the Clinton campaign has not done. We win in almost every election, every state caucus or primary people 45 years of age or younger. Secretary Clinton does very, very well with older people. The ideas that we are fighting for our future of America. They are the future of the Democratic Party. And by the way, by the way, what we have done is excite an entire generation of people, working people and young people who are now getting involved in the political process. I think when we go to California, will go to Oregon, and when we go to New Mexico. When we go to all the remaining states. And we have a serious debate on serious issues, I think it generates enthusiasm, gets people involved in the political process, results in a higher voter turnout. Democrats win when the voter turnout is high.
BASH: And senator, no question you're bringing new people into the fold, and you and your campaign also rightly often point out you do well in open primaries, like Indiana was tonight, because there are independent voters. On that note, Trump's campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, said last week that their campaign is ready to bring in anyone who feels the Bern, and this movement that you have started into the Trump campaign if they're not inclined to support Hillary Clinton. I understand that you say that this is not over, and it is not over and you're going to continue down the road. But this is a very real thing that the Trump campaign is doing. And you worry they might have success?
SANDERS: No, I don't.
BASH: Why is that?
SANDERS: Well, I can't speak for, you know, millions of voters, but I think when the average voter, certainly the voters who sport me look at a candidate like Trump who every day is insulting Mexicans and Latinos, women, Muslims, a candidate like Trump who doesn't think we should raise the starvation minimum wage of $7.25 an hour, who wants to give hundreds of billions of dollars in tax breaks to billionaires, like himself, who thinks that climate change is a hoax. Despite the fact that the entire virtually the entire scientific community is telling us it's a great threat to the planet. I think that the vast majority of our supporters will not be supporting Mr. Trump.
TAPPER: Senator Sanders, this is Jake again. You've been saying that Hillary Clinton will not have enough pledged delegates to win the nomination, she'll only be able to do it with super delegates, and that's one of the reasons you're going to take it to the convention because you want the change the opinions of some of the super delegates. Barack Obama was in the exact same position in 2008. He would not have been able to win the nomination just with pledged delegates, he was able to get momentum, people changing, super delegates changing to him, but that's only because he was in the lead.
SANDERS: Well, look, I can't predict what will happen. This is what I will say, Jake, number one, I believe that when we win and have won states like Washington state or New Hampshire, or other states with 60 percent, 65, 70, 80 percent of the votes. Do you know what think? I think that the super delegates in those states should respond to what their constituents want. I'm not saying that, you know, if you win 51 percent. But when you win a landslide victory, I think it is incumbent among the super delegates to listen to the people of their state. And in many cases, that is not happening. Super delegates are supporting Clinton in states that we have won landslide victories. I think that's wrong.
Here's the ironies of this whole campaign, we now have, if my memory is correct, won over 45 percent of the popular vote. Of the delegates, pledged delegates, and yet we have won all of 7 percent of the super delegates. All that is about the establishment supporting Hillary Clinton. And I think as this campaign progresses, you're going to see a whole lot of super delegates ask themselves the most important question, and that question is, which candidate, Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders is best able to defeat Donald Trump? And if you look at every poll that will has come out, including CNN polls, in the last month, in every case nationally and virtually every case in the statewide poll, Bernie Sanders is the stronger candidate against Trump than is Hillary Clinton.
TAPPER: Have you been reaching out to these super delegates? Have you any indication? Is there any suggestion at all that any of them will start to come your way?
SANDERS: Well, I think as this campaign progresses -- look, I can't make predictions. And Jake, let me repeat what I said at the beginning, we understand this is an uphill battle.
[23:15:00] But I think that you're going to see some sensible super delegates, who perhaps declared for Clinton before I was even in the race, maybe a year ago, maybe more than that. And I think they are going to say, now look at the objective facts. Bernie Sanders will not only win virtually all of the Democratic votes, he is much stronger among independents that be is Hillary Clinton. I think -- correct me if I'm wrong here -- but I think we win independent votes over her by about a two to one margin. You know what, you cannot become president of the United States without winning independent votes. And I think I am much better positioned to do that than is Secretary Clinton.
TAPPER: More importantly, Senator Sanders, for this evening as we wrap up this conversation, congratulations --
SANDERS: Thank you.
TAPPER: -- on a big and hard-fought victory. Our best wishes to you and to Jane and best of luck out there on the campaign trail.
SANDERS: Jake and Dana, and thank you very, very much. Take care.
TAPPER: thank you Senator and were going to have much more campaign coverage of this exciting election when we come back after this very quick break. Stay with us. [23:20:12] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back, we just heard from
Bernie Sanders. He's the winner of the Indiana Democratic presidential primary tonight. Let's go to John King right over at the magic wall. He made the case that he still has, he believes, a credible path to get the Democratic presidential nomination.
JOHN KING, CNN Anchor AND CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He called it a narrow path. I think Senator Sanders was actually pretty realistic, he said it's a narrow path. He said It's not over. He essentially said why should I quit in the seventh inning when I have a couple more at-bats even though I'm down a few runs. I think that's a fair way to put it. It's a very difficult path for senator Sanders. Here's where we are at the end of the night. Hillary Clinton is going to have, get or take, a few more delegates from Indiana, but about a 300 delegate lead. This is only pledged delegates on the map right now. I'm going to play this out. Let's say senator Sanders, this is what he needs. If Senator Sanders won them all, Wolf, won them all, let's just start filling them in. This is not in the order they vote, New Jersey, West Virginia --
BLITZER: Nine more contests.
KING: We keep going, the District of Columbia is in their too, and we just run them all out. Bernie Sanders wins them all, 55, 45. He would not catch Hillary Clinton and pledged delegates. Now if he won them all 65, 35, that's a different conversation, but is there any reason to expect that to happen? This is not criticizing senator Sanders, Hillary Clinton to lose New Jersey after she's won everything around it. Hillary Clinton to lose California, she's ahead in the average polls right now. I think it's 9.7 in the RealClearPolitics average, some were a little older. Sanders supporters say he's coming on. It's conceivable, but even if he won them all, what Senator Sanders is saying, if I win most of these. Let's just say for the sake of argument, I want to take this one out, stretch it out to make it work easier. Doesn't want to the cooperate, that's why, I did that, Wolf, you've got to take that off. I should know how this works, right. Let's just say that she wins New Jersey and he won everything else. He would be behind her, but what senator Sanders is hoping is that the super delegates -- she right now has 513. These are elected Democrats, appointed Democrats who get votes at the convention. That helped Senator Obama or the finish line 2008. He only has 41 right now. She has 513, that tells you how deeply the Democratic establishment is with Hillary Clinton. Senator Sanders has a point, if he were to win nine out of ten of the remaining contests, there's no doubt that some of these people would panic. There's no doubt some would switch, how many? We have no idea. We have no idea. Unless and until such a streak happened, this is a hypothetical conversation.
Now, Senator Sanders does have a point though, that it's not over mathematically. However, her lead is bigger now than Obama's lead was at this point in 2008. There's zero evidence her super delegates have been growing in recent days. There's nobody who's checked in tonight and said I'm switching. Sure, we check back with these people all the time. If Senator Sanders could win a couple more next week, then we'll check back with the people again, see if it happens. That is his only hope. He cannot win with pledged delegates.
What he has to do is win the bulk of the remaining contests, I would argue that obviously 54/45 doesn't get him enough in the math. I think if he won some of the states 60/40, another one 65/35, would that message? Would that cause jitters if not panic in the Democratic Party? Yes, it would, if, if it happened. So, this is a big win tonight in Indiana. Let's not take anything away from Senator Sanders, but one win -- we've seen this at other points in the race, one win is not going to be enough. He's going to have to follow up and this is his problem. The Democratic establishment, for their questions about Hillary Clinton many have, still think she's a better general election candidate and unless he can do something like this, this is not going to move.
BLITZER: Democrats don't have winner take all states, proportional in every state. That's a potential problem for Senator Sanders. Anderson back to you.
COOPER: Wolf, thanks very much. Let's take a look at some of what Ted Cruz said much earlier this evening, stepping out of the race suspending his campaign, let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: From the beginning, I've said that I would continue on as long as there was a viable path to victory. Tonight, I'm sorry to say it appears that path has been foreclosed. Together, we left it all on the field in Indiana. We gave it everything we've got, but the voters chose another path. So with a heavy heart, but with boundless optimism for the long-term future of our nation we are suspending our campaign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Ted Cruz talking about the long-term future of the nation, clearly also his long-term future, Amanda, are you confident he has a future?
CARPENTER: Oh sure. I mean, he is a leading voice for conservatives in the senate with an impeccable reputation for standing up against all odds to do what he thinks is right. And famously seen that the government shutdown, which I was a part of through 2013.
[23:25:00] And so I think, especially in light of Trump being the nominee when nobody knows where he stands on some many positions and people really, the conservative movement and more broadly looking for leadership when it comes to matters of the constitution, rule of law, things that really fueled the Tea Party back in 2009, they're going to need somewhere to go. So Cruz will be a voice for them.
COOPER: So he continues to -- he does not endorse Trump you don't think?
CARPENTER: I don't think so. If I were advising him, I would say don't do this. Actually this is bad for your brand for whatever you want to do. If you want to go run for governor of Texas, you should not be one of the people getting on board with Donald Trump when he is campaigning in such a dirty and nasty way. And has demonstrated no reason that he will abide by rules or do anything good for the conservative move. I think that's bad for his brand.
COOPER: We've got to take a quick break. We're going to have more with our panel. More coverage ahead.
[23:30:20] COOPER: Welcome back to Indiana primaries, our continuing coverage. A big night for Bernie Sanders, a victory for him in the state of Indiana, and obviously also for Donald Trump. Senator Ted Cruz dropping out of the race. Suspending his campaign. Donald Trump now the presumptive Republican nominee. Let's talk to David Chalian a little bit about the exit polls that we been looking at throughout the course of the night. David, what did we learned from those exit polls?
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Anderson, we're taking a look here about clues about the unification of the Republican Party after this hard fought nomination fight, and sort of the excitement for Donald Trump. Take a look, remember, this is about Indiana tonight. We asked voters if Trump was the GOP nomination, would you definitely vote for him, probably vote for him, not vote for him. Add up the definitely and probably vote for him, that's 75 percent of Republicans, voting in today's Republican primary, who say they probably or definitely will vote for him, 24 percent say not vote for him. Now let's look at the enthusiasm for him. We asked folks, are you excited or optimistic or concerned or scared if indeed Donald Trump is elected president? And look at that, you've got 55 percent there if you add up excited and optimistic, clear majority, excited or optimistic who were voting in today's Indiana primary. Look at these numbers and remember, these numbers match similar numbers that we saw in his huge Northeast victories in New York and in the April 26 states. That was a state that wasn't supposed to be as kind to him and yet we see a majority excited or optimistic. We see 75 percent, definitely or probably going to vote for him. Although he does have a task ahead of him to unify the party and make sure they turn out for him, he looks to be, because of the sheer size of his victories of late, on his way to starting to do just that.
COOPER: David Chalian, David, thanks very much. We'll check back more in with you. Do you buy the 24 percent who say they're scared, but that 25 percent, I think it was you said, they're not going to vote for him? I mean do buy that those numbers will not come down significantly as Hillary Clinton -- assuming she gets the nomination -- as the battle back becomes a two-person battle.
CARPENTER: Yes, he'll have a great opportunity to try to calm people down. And I do think there are people who are saying, yes, I'm scared, but I'm going to vote for him anyway, because they've tried everything else, like Van was talking about earlier. And are willing to try something new, even know it's scary and we don't know where it goes. The thing that really concern me is that Donald Trump had all this opportunity to grow as a candidate, to bring people together, to calm down his temperament. He hasn't done it yet while he's winning. When it would be the easiest to do. In the face of attacks from Hillary Clinton and all the infrastructure that comes from that, I don't know how he will handle that and how we will make people feel more secure.
JEFFERY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: He really does believe you don't -- I mean you have to keep at this until you win. Now I think it's safe to say, with the possible exception of John Kasich, and you want to be careful and not let him get out. He is going to move on now to Hillary Clinton and keep doing this with her. Again as I've said before, you know, Thomas E Dewey looked very presidential in the fall of 1948 and harry Truman was give him hell Harry, and he won, there was a lesson there.
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: At the same time, you know, we're talking about these numbers that were just 24 percent of Republicans in Indiana are afraid of Donald Trump. They said they are scared of Donald Trump. That's a weird question to even ask about a candidate. And so, there's a chance to grow that number. You think about a Donald Trump in charge of the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, the IRS --
Lord: I've already thought that about Hillary Clinton.
JONES: Well, good for you, but I think a lot of people when you see that erratic behavior, when you see how he won't even let -- we've talked about the protests and stuff, don't forget, Donald Trump wouldn't even let silent protests, a Muslim woman stood up silently, I come in peace. Threw her out. So there's a way to grow that 24 percent of people who are very concerned about giving this much power to someone who has shown this little concern and respect for basic democratic rights.
CUPP: And that grows because, potentially because there are millions of people who don't start tuning into an election until it's the general, and they have two actual candidates. They're not interested in trying to discern between 17 on this side, 5 on this side, get invested in all of the mudslinging and the fights and the policy issues that change day-to-day. So for people who haven't really been tuning in and are waiting, you know, that potential of scared or concerned with the other --
[23:35:00] JONES: People feel more scared, like I'm scared.
Lord: This is going to turn over multiple of multiple of multiples of times between now and the convention.
COOPER: It's a long way between now and the convention.
Lord: Exactly, exactly. If you added those two categories together, they were 42 percent.
Lord: They were 42 percent. So there's a lot of ground that's got to be covered. AXELROD: I think that explains by his way his temperament and
approach tonight in the statement. I think there's a recognition that if you're scaring or concerning almost half the voters in your own party, that's not a good thing. And maybe you'd better tone it down. The question is whether he can do that consistently, because if he's calm tonight and comes out tomorrow and is back to the JFK conspiracy guy, if it does send a signal of instability that I think lends credence to the argument that Hillary Clinton's trying to make.
MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Can I go back and make a point about Bernie. I want to make a point about Bernie and the interview that was done here about super delegates. Because I think there's a point that needs to be made. The super delegates exist on the Democratic side as a hedge against a populist movement than leads to a catastrophe like McGovern in '72. Senator Sanders makes an interesting point, he says "In the November match-ups, I do better then she does running against Donald Trump or the other Democrats and therefore they should come to me." I don't think the Democratic establishment believes that. I think that thus far, he's not been fully vetted. That if Donald Trump had his way going after Bernie Sanders, those numbers would crumble, and therefore, not only are they standing with Hillary Clinton because she's the Democrat, the real Democrat that they know, but they just don't think he could run well in the general election.
AXELROD: Also leading in the polls right now.
SMERCONISH: One final observation is the Republicans are envious. Because if they had super delegates, like the Democrats do, I don't think Donald Trump would be in the position that he is today.
BORGER: Can I just -- on the concern, the scared and concerned on the Democratic side, just looking up these numbers. About 30 percent of Democrats would be concerned or scared if Hillary Clinton were elected and about 26 percent of Bernie Sanders. So that's not insignificant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But only 9 percent said scared of Hillary Clinton.
JONES: Yes, scared. I mean, look don't mess it up now, I said scared.
BORGER: ok. So 9 percent said scared about Hillary. Concerned and scared.
CARPENTER: Can we just look comprehensively at it, like look, we saw the Republican more divided than ever, 57 percent. People who are scared, concerned, meanwhile on the Democratic side, more unified, more liberal than ever. This is bad for Republicans generally. I don't know how you heal it exactly, but you got to get some smart people on it.
COOPER: Let's take a quick break and we'll with the panel in a moment. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [23:41:44] COOPER: Welcome back, we're here with John King. Over at the magic wall we're looking at the electoral map. A lot of people already focusing into the possibility that it'll be Donald Trump versus Hillary Clinton in a general election.
KING: All right. Donald Trump tonight, the presumptive Republican nominee, that's what he thinks, that's what the Republican National Committee says. The Democratic race is going to go on. But imagine we could talk about this hypothetically Trump versus Clinton. We could talk about this Trump versus either Clinton or Sanders. Because you start with this, you start with the map of the last election, both campaigns, both candidacies will do this. This is Obama versus Romney, 332 electoral for President Obama, 206 for Mitt Romney, so a landslide from an electoral college perspective for Barack Obama.
Now if your Hillary Clinton you think, OK, is there anything on this map that I might lose? If you're Donald Trump, you're saying how do I get from 206 to 270? Well again, Democrats will argue with this because these have been reliably Democratic states for quite some time. But Donald Trump thinks he can appeal to blue-collar working- class voters especially with his trade message, his immigration message, and change Pennsylvania. Can he? We'll see. But let's just say hypothetically, that one's in play. What does it do to the math? Makes it a little closer. Donald Trump takes Ohio, always the biggest battleground state. No Republican has won the presidency in the modern era without Ohio. Let's say Donald Trump if he can compete there. What does that do? Well, there's still a Democratic victory. And Donald Trump wants to go here and recreate what we used to call Reagan Democrats. Blue collar workers up in Michigan and do it. At that point, even if Donald Trump, even if -- remember, Obama won all of these states twice.
Ohio went for Bush once, but most of the states -- was twice, excuse me -- most of these states, but Michigan and Pennsylvania have been Democratic since the late 80s. But if he won all three of those, even that's not enough. Where would he go? Wisconsin, that would give Donald Trump -- Donald Trump could win four states, across the Rust Belt, if you will, and win the presidency based on this map assuming Hillary Clinton took away none of the red states.
This is where the campaign calculations will start. If you're the Trump campaign, you view this as your wheel house, use your economic message, to a degree your immigration message. Your strength message. Try to turn blue collar, white voters -- especially blue-collar white men -- which is a deficit, a problem for Hillary Clinton. Is that realistic? Any Democrat would tell you no. But this is what Democrats worry about. They say Hillary Clinton would have work to do here. Now if you look at the map and you say, let's assume for a hypothetical, Donald Trump could pull that off. If you're Hillary Clinton, now you're losing 270, 268, if this is happening, where do you get it back?
Where do you get a back, well one of the things the Democrats will look at, they've been talking about this for some time. Nevada and New Mexico used to be swing states. Now some people still think Nevada, but most Democrats think because of the demographics and the Latino vote, these are pretty solidly Democratic states now, especially New Mexico and more and more Nevada. What would Hillary Clinton try? Maybe Arizona. Right, maybe Arizona, it has a Latino population. Now a Republican will say, no way. I can tell you that john McCain campaign is nervous with Donald Trump as the nominee.
BLITZER: He's up for reelection.
KING: He's up for reelection -- about the state. So could the Democrats turn Arizona? If so, even if Donald Trump had the success changing the map here, Hillary Clinton, if she could find a place to change the map, that one takes it back. Another one and again, Democrats have talked about this, President Obama talked about this, Senator Obama talked about this. State of Georgia. Bill Clinton won Georgia once. Your friend Ross Perot was in the race. But they talk about it let's say, The Never Trump Movement.
[23:45:00] That conservatives in the South stay home. Georgia is a state where we do have a significant African-American population. If you have a combination of high African-American turnout and The Never Trump Movement that keeps some conservatives home, is it conceivable? Sure it's conceivable. But these are the calculations that Malveaux was going on in all the war rooms. And these are calculations that people will be pouring over the polling data. Not just battleground poles state to state, but can Trump improve among Latinos? What is Hillary Clinton support among working class men? Some of this work has already been underway. But now that it's pretty clear, crystal clear, Trump will be the Republican nominee. This is now going on, Wolf, at full bore. What states can he potentially change? Is there anything that she or Bernie Sanders can turn back? It's a fascinating race.
BLITZER: we've heard Donald Trump often say, he thinks his home state of New York would be in play as well.
KING: I'll believe that one when I see it. But I will say this, if you look at all the recent general election polls, Hillary Clinton has a clear advantage. However, if we've learned anything over the last nearly year, Donald Trump has been able to rewrite and change some rules so don't count it out, assume as most Democrats do, a competitive race.
BLITZER: Yes, Democrats I know the Hillary Clinton campaign got taken very, very seriously right now. Anderson, over to you.
COOPER: As they should, as any candidate should. David Axelrod, how does the race change for Donald Trump when he wakes up tomorrow, how does it change? He's no longer competing against the man he called "lying Ted" all this time. What does he focus on? Hillary Clinton.
AXELROD: Well, I think so. And I think he focuses on what he thinks are his comparative advantages. And I think you heard some clues tonight. When he dug into the trade issue as he did. When he dug into the issue of, we can't be the world's policemen anymore. And other countries have to step up and, you know, he is clearly going to start contrasting himself with her on those issues, and going to start launching, Jeff said, he's going to move forward, I forget how you phrased it. Now he's going to have to do it with Hillary Clinton what he did the others. I suggest assume he's going to go hard after her. And I think some of is going to be very personal.
But you know one thing I would say about the map that John just laid out. I think he's exactly right, and everything said. And in fact Arizona and George with the two states that the Obama campaign looked hard at to see if they make a run at them. But I think him making roads with some of these blue collar workers, as suggested there, supposes that he doesn't lose votes anywhere else in those states. And I think that that is a wrong calculation. I think that she is likely to pick up as many as she loses because of the tradeoffs and constituencies here. So, I think they have to focus on those states. The Clinton campaign has to focus on those states for the reasons that Van has been talking about. But, I do think that it's more complicated than a zero sum game as to where these workers go.
COOPER: We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back.
[23:51:38] COOPER: Welcome back, we continue with our panel. Van, we were talking during the break. This is not going to be an easy race for Democrats. And you continue to point out --
JONES: Scream, I continue to scream, and wail and cry and panic and alarm. Because I think that Trump -- I think the map that we just looked at is very, very important in the "Lord of the Rings," there's a garrison at Osgiliath.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A what?
JONES: A garrison at Osgiliath --
COOPER: Want to put on your robe and give you your scepter?
JONES: I feel like I could. And Gandalf said, "Here the handler stroke will fall the hardest." And that is the Rust Belt. In the Rust Belt the Donald Trump hammer will fall the hardest. He can appeal -- I beg you to believe me -- he can appeal to working class people and some African-Americans. And let's not forget, only 70 percent of African-Americans don't like him. Democrats like to get about 90 percent of the black vote. If he gets half of that 30 percent, that could be a big, big blow. I agree with you, that may be offset by other losses. Let's be clear. The Rust Belt, the hammer stroke will fall the hardest in the Rust Belt.
CUPP: Van, I love you --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who is Gollum in the press?
CUPP: We've been friends for a long time. I know Suzanne. As I told you once, I told you a thousand times, I don't do dragons. You completely lost me, but I think what you were saying is that Trump could be dangerous in places where blue collar workers and that is Hillary's deficiency. The next beat we will all be taking is how do these two candidates address both of their deficiencies through their VP picks. And that is an opportunity to shore up a ticket where you have -- that's going to be crucial for both of them.
AXELROD: That was a great segue that I'm going to blow the hell out of. Because I just want to say one thing, Mitt Romney did pretty well with those voters in 2012. So, you know -- Trump may add to that vote, but --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At what cost?
JONES: Here's a vulnerability in the Obama coalition that nobody wants to talk about publicly. The black Latino unity that exists in our coalition could be made fragile. In the black community for over the past 10 years you've heard no one say, "Hey, those Mexicans are taking our jobs." Why? Because in the 90s we pushed all those voices to the margin. A Donald Trump could whip up some of that.
AXELROD: That's a different issue.
JONES: Could whip up some of that, and if you add that -- he could go and he could tell black voters, "You've been poor a long time, I'm rich, give me a chance." He could say NAFTA cost you jobs. I'm going to drop NAFTA. And he can add to that argument, which would be very dangerous. And by closing the borders, when we get those jobs back, you get them not the Mexicans. That could be dangerous.
HENDERSON: Obama is going to counter that argument.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Both Obama --
JONES: Obama and Gandalf. He will save us.
HENDERSON: Can I talk to your point about VP.
CUPP: Oh, I would love it.
AXELROD: Vice President, she was picking up your segue.
BORGER: I am picking it up your segue.
HENDERSON: You're welcome.
COOPER: You mean vice president, not "Veep" on HBO.
BORGER: But I do believe that people don't vote on vice presidents, but I also believe that it's the personal choice made by the nominee and it tells you an awful lot about the nominee. And I think we're really curious, not so much about Hillary.
[23:55:00] But we're really curious about who Donald Trump chooses. Because he has said he wants somebody from the political arena, right Jeffery?
BORGER: And it'll tell us a little bit about his politics, does he go for an ultra-conservative? Does he go for somebody whose more moderate? I mean, this will finally let people know a little bit more about who Donald Trump is and what he is comfortable with around --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because it is your first presidential appointment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can we not get caught up --
SMERCONISH: John Kasich continues to be the perfect pick. I've asked him several times. Others have asked him. He says absolutely not I would be open to it, but you look at John King's map, Ohio jumps out at you. Trump said I want someone skilled in the political process.
CUPP: To Gloria's point, you're right. VPs tend to be not that consequential, but when you have two people as unlike as Hillary and Trump are, those VP pick could actually be end up being --
HENDERSON: You guys are all fast forwarding fast. We need to look at those facts that if you are Republican, life as you know changed tonight. We don't know where the Republican Party is going. This is going to be a month's long process of figuring out. It's going to be exciting, scary and a little liberating
COOPER: Let's take a break. We'll be right back.
Please be sure to join me tomorrow in the situation room 5 p.m. eastern, for my interview with Donald Trump. Our coverage of the Indiana primary in the 2016 presidential race continues right now with Don Lemon in New York.