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Trump Wins Indiana; Cruz Drops Out of Race; Sanders Defeats Clinton in Indiana. Aired Midnight-1a ET
Aired May 4, 2016 - 00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[00:00:08] DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you very much, Wolf Blitzer. I appreciate that. It is midnight here on the East Coast, and this is "CNN Tonight", a special edition; I'm Don Lemon.
Our breaking news, America, meet your republican nominee, Donald Trump. He wins Indiana. Ted Cruz bows to the inevitable and suspends his campaign, leaving Trump the presumptive nominee.
Meanwhile, Bernie Sanders prevails over national frontrunner Hillary Clinton in a hard fought democratic race, but will his victory dim her campaign? And, what do Indiana's results mean for the rest of the race? We're going to talk about all of that.
My political dream team here with me. Nomiki Konst, who supports Bernie Sanders; Patti Solis Doyle, former campaign manager for Hillary Clinton; CNN Political Commentator Ryan Lizza, also CNN Political Commentators, it's late, Ana Navarro, Buck Sexton, he supports Ted Cruz -
BUCK SEXTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR AND TED CRUZ SUPPORTER: Of course.
LEMON: -- and Kayleigh McEnany, who supports Donald Trump. We're going to have a lot of stunned people. I asked them before, who are you supporting? They were like, I don't know at this point.
So we are going to get to the dream team in just a little bit but I want to begin with CNN's Jim Acosta; he's at Trump tower, and Sunlen Serfaty in Indianapolis. Jim, to you first. Hello, I guess good morning to both of you.
Jim, a huge win for Donald Trump tonight and now he is the presumptive nominee. What is he saying tonight?
JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, via satellite: Well, first of all, I think we have to recognize this is history. This is the first time since Dwight Eisenhower that we have a presumptive GOP nominee who has never been in politics before, and that is Donald Trump, a business man who rose through the ranks of this GOP process, knocked off 17 different contesters over the period of the last several months to get to this point. It's a pretty incredible feat and I think you have to give him his due and give him credit for this. He knocked off Ted Cruz in the Indiana primary. This was a contest
that the Texas Senator said he needed to win. He simply could not win the state of Indiana. So Donald Trump is now the presumptive GOP nominee. Keep in mind, earlier today, Donald Trump was really going after Ted Cruz. He was suggesting that the Texas Senator's father was somehow involved in the Kennedy assassination. This was a claim he lifted out of the "National Enquirer."
It was a very different Donald Trump earlier this evening here at Trump Tower when Donald Trump came out and talked to supporters here. He basically described Ted Cruz as being brave for making this decision, which came as a surprise we should mention to just about everybody inside the Trump campaign.
There were some contacts, we understand from talking to a Trump source, between high level officials inside the Cruz campaign and the Trump campaign, that this was happening, but by and large, this was a surprise to just about everybody inside the Trump campaign that Ted Cruz was getting out.
Donald Trump sounded very gracious and congratulating and thanking Ted Cruz for getting out of the race. Here is what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I competed all my life, competitive person. All my life, I've been in competitions, different competitions, whether it's sports or business or now for ten months, politics; and I have to tell you that I have met some of the most incredible competitors that I have ever competed against right here on the Republican Party.
You know, we started off with that 17 number and, just so you understand, Ted Cruz, I don't know if he likes me or if he didn't like me, but he is one hell of a competitor. He is a tough, smart guy.
TRUMP: And he has got an amazing future. He has got an amazing future. So I want to congratulate Ted. I know how tough it is. It's tough. It's tough. I have had some moments where it was not looking so good and it's not a great feeling and so I understand how Ted feels and Heidi and their whole beautiful family. I want to just say though that one tough competitor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Donald Trump despite the fact that he is now the presumptive GOP nominee, he is going to campaign in West Virginia and Nebraska later on this week, Don. I talked to a Trump campaign official who said, and this was a pretty true statement, pretty candid statement, that they will continue to campaign because, guess what, they get a lot of free air time every time they go out and campaign. Why would they pay for it, in the words of one Trump campaign official? You know what, that's a pretty candid statement. LEMON: He went back to his old days; remember, it was a bromance between him and Ted Cruz and he said some nice things about Ted Cruz. But Donald Trump has angered and insulted so many of his former rivals in the Republican establishment, how does he unite the party?
[00:05:01] ACOSTA: You know, I think that's a very big test for Donald Trump and we're going to see that unfold over the next several weeks. I talked to Trump's son, Donald Trump, Jr. about this. This is a very tall order for the real estate tycoon. Can he bring these parts of the Republican Party together?
It was scorched earth for Donald Trump throughout much of this campaign. he took out all of the different competitors throughout all of this by referring to Marco Rubio as little Marco and Ted Cruz as Lyin' Ted. We're not going to hear any of those expressions anymore, but when I asked Donald Trump, Jr. about it earlier this evening he said yes, his father can get that job done. Here's more of what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Do you think it's possible for your father to unite this party? It's pretty fractured right now.
DONALD TRUMP, JR, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, TRUMP ORGANIZATION: You know, I think the answer is 100-percent. I mean, I think people get it. Obviously there's been a lot of protecting the system with a lot of the old-school establishment. I understand that, but I think a big part of my father's message about is about letting people have a voice, giving them that voice again, and letting it be heard. They spoke it loud and clear. I think our politicians, on both sides, have to start actually listening to the people for a change.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: And, Don, I have to tell you, this came as such a shock to people inside the Trump campaign. I was standing next to Corey Lewandowski and various other officials with the Trump campaign. There were aides with their eyes were wide open and their jaws were dropped watching Ted Cruz make this announcement. Paul Manafort, the convention manager who was brought in to work on the delegate process and preparing for the convention, he was saying that it was almost such a surprise that Donald Trump had to make tweaks to some of the remarks he was going to make earlier this evening. So a lot of people inside the Trump campaign did not see this coming from Ted Cruz.
Obviously, now this is Donald Trump's Republican Party and what he does with it over the next several months may have a big influence on how he turns out and how he performs later in the fall within the general election campaign against Hillary Clinton.
LEMON: And, Sunlen, indeed it was a surprise beyond the Trump campaign. Ted Cruz gave this race all he had but this was his firewall, Indiana. Let's listen to a clip of his concession speech.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TED CRUZ (R-TX) REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: From the beginning, I have said that I would continue on as long as there was a viable path to victory. Tonight, I'm sorry to say, --
CROWD: No. Oh, no.
CRUZ: -- it appears that path has been foreclosed.
CRUZ: Together, we left it all on the field in Indiana.
CRUZ: We gave it everything we've got, but the voters chose another path, and so with a heavy heart but with boundless optimism for the long-term future of our nation, we are suspending our campaign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Yes, I told you, Sunlen, it was a surprise. You hear the people? Oh, no. But now what, Sunlen? Does he support Donald Trump?
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well that is the big question that's really hanging over him right now, Don. As he left here, his last campaign event of his own campaign, as he got in the car with his family heading back to his hometown of Houston, I asked him, will you support Donald Trump as the nominee? He would not take that question. He would just smile and wave and got in his car and drove away.
Aides to Senator Cruz say that in due time they do think he will make his feelings known on this, for whatever direction that means. Certainly, the wounds of the campaign are still very raw. Aides openly admit they feel that Donald Trump crossed the line in the primary campaign, pointing to Donald Trump attacking his wife, Heidi Cruz, and most recently in the back and forth today, Trump going after his father, Rafael Cruz. That really struck a chord, according to campaign aides. So this will be a question that really haunts Senator Cruz going forward.
It was only in March when I asked him if he is going to be supporting Donald Trump going forward. He said back then, he said, I'm not in the habit of supporting people who attack my family. So it will be interesting the decision he makes going forward. Don?
LEMON: All right, Sunlen; thank you very much and also Jim Acosta, as well. Mr. John King is here. He's at our Magic Wall. John, good to see you. Let's discuss now the numbers. Indiana turned out to be really critical. Break it down -- break down the numbers for us. How did Trump win so big?
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Don, it turned out not only to be critical, but it turned out to be a blowout. I mean, look at it right now, 97-percent. Donald Trump beating John Kasich and Ted Cruz combined, beating Ted Cruz by almost 20 points. Just look at the map. Look at the map; as you noted, this was Ted Cruz's firewall. He said,
I have to win or else we're at the edge of a cliff. He only won five counties, and in some of these counties that he won, he just barely won them. So what happened tonight is, Indiana sent Donald Trump and Ted Cruz a message.
[00:10:02] While it sent Ted Cruz out of the race, here is what you got now. You have this part of the country especially. When you come to the east, look how well Donald Trump did. Really John Kasich's Ohio and Ted Cruz won up in Maine. Ted Cruz got the message tonight.
If you look at the delegate count, Donald Trump is well over 1,000, well on his way. Ted Cruz knew (1) losing momentum, (2) losing the math and (3) he was not going to be able to raise money to be able to compete in a very big way out in California. So Ted Cruz deciding to get out tonight and think about his future, which makes Donald Trump, as you said at the top of the show, the presumptive nominee.
We're going to run this out. We're going to fill them in, but John Kasich is not happy tonight that the Republican Party is saying Donald Trump is our nominee, but, I hate to be unkind, but by delegate count John Kasich is now fourth in a two-man race, behind Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, who left the race, I think, seven weeks ago.
LEMON: Who are both out of the race. So what does this mean for 1237? Well on the way, is he going to it?
KING: Oh, yeah. Essentially, who is going to beat him in California? Let me switch to the Republican race here. Here's where we are today. Let's play this out through June. John Kasich, this is part of the deal that he was going to win New Mexico. I don't think you can bet on that happening any more. Donald Trump is leading in the polls in Oregon. So let's switch that one, if Kasich stays in the race that long. That gets Trump at 1143.
This is a 70-30 split with Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz is not going to be in the race when California votes, but even with a 70-30 split, Trump is over the line. Trump is over the line if he runs out - and that still gave Cruz some states out in the West. Now that he's not in, Trump will probably win those as well. So he's over. Add in some pledged delegates -- unpledged delegates, I mean, from Pennsylvania who have said -- unbound delegates, forgive me Don, who've said they would be for Trump. He is gone; forget about it.
LEMON: It's over. Let's move on to the Democrats because Bernie Sanders won tonight, John. Does it change the math?
KING: Not a lot, and that's the problem for Senator Sanders. Let's - actually, let's stay on this map because it's easier to do it this way and just switch to the Democratic race. No offense to Senator Sanders. He won in Indiana. He will pick up some delegates, but Hillary Clinton is still going to end the night with roughly a 300 delegate lead in the pledged delegates. There are 933 pledged delegates left. You can do this math at home; she's up 300. 900 and something left. He has to win, you know, 60 -- more than 60-percent, even higher than that. So can he do it? Sure. If Senator Sanders can somehow run the board, he won't catch up to her but let me just do this for the sake of argument.
If you come out of this map and come to this map. Let me give you the democrats, and watch this play out. I'm going to take the super delegates off the map for a minute. See where he? 300 now. Let's just say, for the sake of argument -- I know Clinton supports watching are saying this is never going to happen. I just gave them all to Bernie Sanders, 55-45. He still doesn't catch up, Don. Now, if that happened, if Bernie Sanders ran the board the rest of the way, with would that cause jitters, if not panic in the Democratic Party about Hillary Clinton? Of course it would; but the Clinton campaign will tell you we're not going to lose California. So I've got to take that off up there, sorry. It should be -- you would think I would figure out how to use this thing at some point.
The Clinton campaign thinks they will win there. The Clinton campaign thinks they're going to win in New Jersey. If you look at the surrounding areas, that's a reasonable bet for the Clinton campaign. The Clinton campaign thinks it's going to win some others too, but if they win California and New Jersey, then she's out here. And, again, unless Senator Sanders can run the board, Don, remember, I haven't brought in Hillary Clinton's secret weapon yet: 513 super delegates to 41 for Bernie Sanders. They more than get Hillary Clinton across the finish line.
The only way for Sanders to win, he acknowledges this. I thought he was very candid in an interview here on CNN, he said he has a very narrow path, that he has to keep winning and hope that these people switch. Is it possible? Sure it's possible. Is it probable? No.
LEMON: No. All right; let's now - now you know what my next question is. If you put them together in a matchup, Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, then what happens? How does the electoral map shape up?
KING: So you start here, whenever you do an electoral calculation in a presidential race, you look at the last one. So this is the last one, 332 for President Obama. 206 for Governor Romney; an electoral college landslide. So that's what you look at, and both campaigns - let's assume it's a Trump campaign and a Clinton campaign, but the Democratic campaign could be Sanders campaign. They're going to look at the same map.
Let's assume it's Trump-Clinton for the sake of this. Donald Trump says, I'm going to get blue-collar, working class people. I'm going to change Pennsylvania. Hasn't happened since 1988, but let's say does he it for the sake of argument. He says I'm going to reinvent, recreate the so-called "Reagan Democrats" and I'm going to get Michigan. If Donald Trump did that, which would be huge, he's still not enough; right? Hillary Clinton is at 296, Republican at 242.
No Republican has won in our lifetime, Don, without Ohio, in history really. So let's assume -- Donald Trump lost that to Kasich, but let's assume Donald Trump can also get Ohio. Same thing, blue-collar workers across here. Even then, he loses the presidency. So, pick another one. Donald Trump thinks even though Ted Cruz won Wisconsin, you do it here. Now if, and it's a giant if, capitalize it, bold face it, underline it, if Donald Trump could do that, he would be the next president of the United States, if Hillary Clinton [00:15:01] didn't change anything.
But democrats look at the map, too and they think, Donald Trump, you can motivate Latino voters, you can register them. Maybe, just maybe, you could put Arizona in play. Watch that one as it comes out. You've heard this argument before. You will have a conversation tonight with some conservatives. The neverTrump movement; let's say a small percentage of conservatives in a place like Georgia stay home. They say, nope, can't do it. Can't vote for Donald Trump and, Hillary Clinton is able to motivate African-American turnout. Could you put that in play and maybe switch that one over?
So this is the calculation, Don. It's early to talk about this in any definitive way, but this is what will go on at Trump headquarters. How do we get the four and Florida? Inside the Clinton campaign, how do we defend these and can we stretch the map in a place like Arizona and in Georgia? We know this: if you look at the demographics today, if you look at the polling today, you would say advantage Hillary Clinton, but we should also look back at the last several months.
We are saying tonight, Don, Donald Trump is going to be the nominee of the Republican Party. So, advantage Clinton going into the race because of the last two Obama elections, because of her lead among Latinos, her lead among African-Americans, her lead among women. But Donald Trump, if he has proven anything, is that he can rewrite the rules, change the rules, shift expectations. So we would enter with a Democrat advantage. We would focus on the Rust Belt, first and foremost, and we would expect a nasty, competitive race.
LEMON: And some were saying just weeks ago that he would never get to 1237 no matter what, and you are saying it's going to happen now.
Thank you very much; appreciate it, John King. I want to bring in now CNN Politics Executive Editor Mr. Mark Preston. Mark, Indiana was supposed to be fertile ground for Ted Cruz. What happened?
MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: Well there were three main reasons why Ted Cruz was unable to use Indiana as his firewall and to really stop Donald Trump from getting to 1237. First off, he was unable to marshal up the evangelical voters. These were voters who were supposed to fuel this candidacy from the outset, but Donald Trump was able to appeal to them with his populist message that made inroads with them, not only in Indiana but saw that earlier in the contest. So, the inability to get evangelicals.
The second thing, Don, is that when Ted Cruz made the deal with John Kasich, where Kasich left Indiana to go campaign elsewhere, that was not seen favorable by Indiana voters. They didn't like that plan. It looked like it was too cute by half. In fact, that didn't work in his favor.
Third of all, probably the most important one, is that Ted Cruz was unable to out-Washington Donald Trump. When I say that, Donald Trump was able to portray himself as the outsider. Meanwhile, Ted Cruz, who is a U.S. senator, a sitting U.S. senator, whose whole candidacy has been based on being the outsider, was seen as the insider when it came down to this two, or in some ways three, man race.
LEMON: Donald Trump says, Mark, he wants to unify the party now. Will Republicans - do you think they will fall in line?
PRESTON: I think you will have a segment of the Republican Party who is going to choose not to do so. We have seen Mark Salter, who was a top ranking campaign aide to John McCain, already say that he will vote for Hillary Clinton. Having said that, I do think that it's happened early enough right now that perhaps the wounds can be healed amongst many Republicans and they can get behind Donald Trump.
Now, will enough of them get behind Donald Trump for him to marshal up everybody in the Republican Party, which he is going to need to take on Hillary Clinton, as John just so well done there on the electoral map, but there is going to be a segment, Don, of the Republican Party that just decides to stay at home.
LEMON: All right; Mr. Mark Preston, thank you very much, in Washington, D.C. Donald Trump by the way sits down with our very own Wolf Blitzer at Trump Tower Wednesday. You can see the interview on "The Situation Room" 5:00 p.m. Eastern on Wednesday.
We have more to come as my political dream team weighs in -- yes, you guys will get a chance to talk -- on this big night in Indiana and what it means in the race for the White House.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (CNN NEWS HEADLINES)
[00:22:42] LEMON: A ground breaking night in the race for the White House: Donald Trump wins Indiana, the Republican Primary there, and is the presumptive GOP nominee. Ted Cruz dropping out of the race.
Back with me now, my political dream team: Nomiki Konst, Patti Solis Doyle, Ryan Lizza, Ana Navarra, Buck Sexton, and Kayleigh McEnany.
Well, well, well; here we are. Did you guys ever think that we would be here?
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR AND DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER: Yes.
SEXTON: This fast though? No, no. I thought we had more time. I didn't think Ted Cruz was going to drop out tonight.
LEMON: Do you need me to get you some Prozac, Ana?
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: What makes you think I'm not on Prozac already?
NAVARRO: Listen, if I didn't have to work tonight, I would be curled up in bed, sucking my thumb after dunking it in whiskey. I will tell you who has been saying for a year that Donald Trump would be the nominee, Don Lemon.
NAVARRO: We have been having this argument for a year.
LEMON: Yes; Ana you have been - and I will be driving home -
NAVARRO: Why the hell couldn't you give me the lottery numbers and we could just call it a day?
LEMON: I'll tell you why I said that, and, you know, listen, I'm not tooting my own horn here, but I haven't seen sort of a whisper campaign like this since 2008 when Barack Obama, then Candidate Obama was running, where people would actually come up to you and say, I really like this guy. I really like this guy. I want to vote for this guy; and people were saying it to me about Donald Trump. Nobody believed me. I had so many fights with Democrats. I even lost friends, people who were just upset, thought I supported Donald Trump, because I was just telling them what I thought I saw coming. Is that a fair assessment you think?
MCENANY: Definitely. Here is the thing people appreciated so much about Donald Trump. He stormed on the scene. He said things that some people were taken aback by but other people said that's what I have been thinking. That's what I've been saying at my dinner table with my family and now there's someone who has the courage to say it. Not only say it but when criticized, not back down from the things that he has said. The Republican Party has wanted that for a long time, going back to George Bush, who was a great president but people were very frustrated that he never defended himself. He never addressed media criticism. Mitt Romney, McCain, they didn't take the battle to the Democrats the way that they wanted. So this was building up for a long time.
LEMON: There are a lot of people here, including Republicans, who did not believe in him, and I've let everyone else get in but Ana Navarro as well. But, Ana, do you think that he can unite the Republican Party? He says he wants to. You're going to have to -- You have to support your candidate.
NAVARRO: Why? Why?
LEMON: Do you think he can unite the party?
[00:25:02] NAVARRO: No, I don't. I think there's people that put country before party. I think people are - look, I think Republicans are going to be faced with tough choices. It's about, you know, which is the least of the evils? Who do I dislike less? Do I dislike a man who I think is unstable less or a woman who I think is untrustworthy less? It's a hell of a choice. I think a lot of people -- what I would say is, if you don't like Donald Trump and you don't Hillary Clinton, let this shakedown a little bit, let it shake out, let the dust settle.
I think both of them have got do a lot to earn the votes of those disenfranchised Republicans. Maybe Trump can prove that he's a different person in a general. Maybe Hillary can prove that she's a different person in the general. We don't know what's going to happen. I would say, don't make any quick, trigger happy decisions tonight. Let's let these two folks compete, compete vigorously. We're in for a hell of a ride; buckle up, folks.
LEMON: Can you split the difference between these two?
SEXTON: Yes, first of all, technically, I guess, you don't have to be neverTrump or for Trump because there's still the Kasich option, theoretically. There's that.
NAVARRO: Don't laugh. That's so mean.
LEMON: The bartender is the last one there and he is hoping something could happen.
NOMIKI KONST, BERNIE SANDERS SUPPORTER: He is so likeable.
SEXTON: I think that right now -- I was a Ted Cruz supporter. There's a bit of shock --
LEMON: I know; when I said you were a Ted Cruz supporter you said --
SEXTON: No, no; it's too soon, Don. It's too soon. There's a bit of grieving that has to go on.
But I do I think that you will see more of an open mindedness. This is a point that Ana just made, more of an open mindedness, as time goes on, from people in the GOP. There is a neverTrump core though, and I know some of these people well. I know some of them personally and then have considerable followings. I don't think they're ever going to move. The question is, how large is the persuadable portion of the GOP that was not for Trump before? We know less than half of GOP voters have voted for Trump in the first place. So there's this huge swath that's out there. How many are really neverTrump and how many of them are, like, maybe I'll get behind this Trump guy if you give me a little bit.
LEMON: But aren't they more neverTrump Trump then - I mean, more never Hillary than they are neverTrump? I mean, at the end of the day don't you think they are going to go out and support their candidate? With that said --
PATTI SOLIS DOYLE, FORMER HILLARY CLINTON CAMPAIGN MANAGER: I think it's an opportunity to really -- he has an opportunity, whether he will take it or not, who knows. He has an opportunity to unite the party. He is about to inherit the infrastructure of the RNC, which means he's going to get message people, speech writers, organizers. He's going to have a whole infrastructure that I think may change the way he campaigns. He is going to have the veepstakes coming up; right. He has an opportunity to really reach out and give an olive branch to someone who is more establishment --
LEMON: Do you think that is going to change Donald Trump?
DOYLE: I think could. I think it's an olive branch. NAVARRO: I don't think that it's going to change Donald Trump at all. In fact, it shouldn't change Donald Trump because, if anything, that has been on his side, is the fact that he's not part of that establishment and that Washington structure. He's made it work in his favor. We've seen he's got speech writers now. We've seen that he's got lobbyists. We've seen that he's got much more of a structure and we don't see him changing as that attacker and a campaigner.
RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Donald Trump is not going to change.
LIZZA: It's been a year and he is who he is, for better or worse. What's going to change is the Republican Party. The Republican Party is going to change in ways that I don't think we yet know.
I mean, I think the best historical analogy is probably Goldwater in '64 where he's sort of lionized by conservatives of today. Back in '64, he repelled as many people as he brought into the party. It took a long time before the Republican Party sort of absorbed what was good about Goldwater and the Party changed.
I think the Republican Party is at a moment like that. There's a lot of issues that Donald Trump brought into the Republican Party that just weren't popular at the elite level and a lot of elites are going to have to say, you know what, this guy won the popular vote. The people, the Republican voters have been telling the elites in Washington, you are doing it wrong. We like what he is saying. A lot of politicians are going to absorb those lessons they're going to rethink trade. They are going to rethink entitlement reform.
LEMON: So he changes the party, the party doesn't change him?
LEMON: -- is that what you believe?
LIZZA: It's more likely, at least in the near future.
LEMON: Let me put this up. Let me put this up.
NAVARRO: -- change and divided before Donald Trump.
LEMON: Check out "The New York Post." As you're saying - check out the "New York Post". The "New York Post" says, "Hoosier Daddy" and the "Daily News" showing and elephant in a casket with the headline, "Dearly Beloved, We Are Gathered Here Today to Mourn The GOP." So what does tonight's win say about the state of the GOP?
LIZZA: It's better this happens now, though, then -- SEXTON: The scenarios that we've been talking about for weeks were of
a complete bloodbath, brokered convention or contested convention. Everyone's going in there, the deal making and if Trump, or Cruz, had emerged from that, there was a sense the party -- it will be too close to the general election. And there will really - there will be bad feeling, bad blood, it will be a huge problem. Now at least I think you have some prayer of coalescing around the Trump candidacy. I don't know if that's likely, but I do think it's possible --
MCENANY: It will - it's very likely.
LEMON: I want that answer. You can say -
SEXTON: I don't know.
KONST: I was just going to say I think the divide in the Republican Party, and I'm a Democrat, so I don't know for sure, was more about where they're going in the future; and they knew that they had a base that was older, very populist.
[00:30:10] I don't know if the younger base, if the younger Republican voters --
NAVARRO: There is no younger base in the Republican Party.
LEMON: All right; stand by everyone. Should democrats be rejoicing now or should they be scared?
LEMON: We're going to discuss that right after this. A lot more to come; don't go anywhere.
LEMON: Donald Trump winning big in Indiana tonight. The Chairman of the Republican National Committee Tweeting Trump is now the Party's presumptive nominee; how quickly things change. Back with me now, my political dream team.
Let's take a look at exit polling, and Ryan, I'm going to go to you on this first. Three-quarters of voters say if they were casting a ballot in support of their candidates rather than against his opponent, voters wanted Trump, didn't they?
LIZZA: They sure did. That's - I mean, that tells you that maybe it's going to be easier for Trump to win some of the hardened anti- Trump voters than people have suggested but on the other hand, it was a huge victory in Indiana. So it wasn't like all those people were Trump supporters anyway.
LEMON: Were you surprised that he won white evangelicals? He mentioned in his speech, he goes, we won the evangelicals. He edged out Ted Cruz, 48-45. That was supposed to be Cruz's bread and butter.
LIZZA: It was in Indiana, but as we saw what happened in the South for quite a while now evangelicals have been going for Trump in very large numbers. Trump was winning evangelicals across the South. The reason for that -- it's [00:35:01] fascinating when you see both interviews and polling is that a lot of evangelicals feel that while Donald Trump may not - he does not share their beliefs, but he's somebody who will stand up for their beliefs.
They think he's a fighter, somebody that will push for their way of life and their religious freedoms. Whether that's true or not, I leave for somebody else to debate. The point being that's a widespread perception. It was true across the South.
I think the Cruz team thought that it would be more similar to what we saw in Wisconsin. That was the game plan, but as we see in Indiana, there was momentum to this. People got it wrong. He won by even beyond what we saw in the polls that were favorable towards Trump.
LEMON: Remember, everyone was saying women, women. He's not going to do great with women. Well, he got women, what, 47-percent to Cruz's 41-percent, Kasich, 10-percent in the exit polling. Are you surprised by that, that he got so many?
MCENANY: No, I'm not surprised at all because he has won women in almost every state. I mean, this has been to me, sort of a narrative in the media that he can't win women because certainly among Republican women, he is winning them. He is winning women, evangelicals.
Just quickly to the poll that you put up and asked Ryan about, about 74-percent voting in favor of a candidate rather than against a candidate, that to me is a complete rejection of the neverTrump movement because most people when they go to the polls, they vote because they're excited to vote for someone; they don't vote in spite of someone. The neverTrump movement was undiverted by so much negativity and that poll right there sums up why that movement failed.
LEMON: 47-percent though is not great. He got more than the other guys for women; is that a precursor to a problem down the road?
NAVARRO: Don, let's have a reality check here. In Indiana, Donald Trump was running against Ted Cruz, one of the most dislikable human beings in politics in recent memory. I called him recently the liver and onions of politics. Some people really can't get enough, some people just gag at the mere thought of it.
NAVARRO: I say, look, I think one of the problems with Ted Cruz, if this election had been ten days ago, had been twelve days ago, the result might have been different, but when a campaign starts deflating like a helium balloon, you can start smelling defeat. He had such a bad, bad week.
I think Donald Trump actually killed him when he refused to do any more debates because when they were debating Ted Cruz could look competitive. He could look knowledgeable on policy. They were standing toe to toe. When he lost the 20-plus million viewers per debate, he had to start generating press created events; events for the press. They all failed. The Carly Fiorina thing was supposed to give him a bump, instead she fell with a thump, literally. Then Mike Pence endorsement was supposed to give him a bump, it was lukewarm. Thing after thing, the transgender bathroom. He just took it way too far and I think he just came across as demagogy. He started getting more and more desperate for how to get media attention. I think that was part of his downfall.
LEMON: Why do you think then that he read everything so wrong, that he appeared to be on the wrong side of everything?
LIZZA: He could never break out of the original lane he set for himself in this race, which is very conservative vote.
LEMON: Just wrong strategy?
LIZZA: And it worked in Iowa, and that's how you win Iowa. Once he left Iowa, he had very, very narrow -- he had a few states where that strategy worked and Trump won across the board.
BUCK SEXTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR AND TED CRUZ SUPPORTER: So much so that he was second to last of 17 candidates. This idea he had this -- it was never going to work, the strategy a couple of weeks ago people were talking about a contested election.
LIZZA: I'm sorry. that's right.
LEMON: -- can he can start -- do you see on the democratic side, can Donald Trump start to build a coalition of women, or in your estimation as a democrat that he can't?
PATTI SOLIS DOYLE, FORMER HILLARY CLINTON CAMPAIGN MANAGER: With all due respect to Kayleigh, I know he wins with Republican women, but with women, all women, nationally, he's at 70-percent negatives. 70- percent negatives. So this -- I find it very interesting that he is trying to define or frame the general election on gender politics, given that he -- his history of demeaning and denigrating women.
Nomiki, I believe that Hillary Clinton is going to be the likely democratic nominee. This is a woman who has been fighting for women's rights, women's equality, equal pay.
KONST: But her (inaudible) are as high as his with women and you have to keep that into consideration --
DOYLE: That's just not true. That's not true.
KONST: She's at 44-percent nationally unfavorable with women. He's at 47-percent.
DOYLE: She's women - she's winning --
KONST: Unfavorable. She might be winning women, but -
KONST: -- are women - exactly. Are going to turn out, that do not like Hillary Clinton, in opposition to Donald Trump?
LEMON: Okay; that is a perfect segue to the next segment after this break. Are women going to turn out for either candidate? We'll be right back.
[00:42:54] LEMON: A big night in Indiana. Donald Trump wins, Ted Cruz drops out and Bernie Sanders beats Hillary Clinton. Here to discuss now, my friend Carl Bernstein, the author of "A Woman in Charge, The Life of Hillary Rodham Clinton."
I'm used to saying good evening to you, but good morning, Carl.
CARL BERNSTEIN, AUTHOR, "A WOMAN IN CHARGE, THE LIFE OF HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON," via satellite: Good morning.
LEMON: So, Donald Trump, can he unite the Party?
BERNSTEIN: Perhaps, within some kind of reason. I think we're looking at an election in which all bets are off, including the usual Republican/Democratic breakdown as being the all-important factor.
We're dealing now with two huge personalities, who have the biggest negatives that two candidates who have ever had going into a general election, assuming that Hillary is the nominee. They are despised, both of them, by many people within their own party, not to speak of the other party; and I think where we are heading here is to an ugly, unprecedented campaign in which celebrity culture might be more important than ideology.
Donald Trump, of course, is a huge celebrity. He's played in the celebrity sand box forever. But so has Hillary Clinton and TMZ, Drudge, New Media are going to have a huge role in this, more than the usual fact-based media.
LEMON: Very interesting. So let's talk about some of the voters in Indiana and these exit polls for a minute, shall we? On Tuesday, this is what the polls show, the primary polls show, the majority of the Republican Party, Carl, feels betrayed by their party politicians. Even so, about two-third say that the nomination process has been fair. How do you explain the sense of betrayal and is Donald Trump the answer here?
BERNSTEIN: I think the sense of betrayal is with institutions and with Washington, and Trump has been magnificently successful in understanding, before any of his opponents or Hillary Clinton -- Bernie Sanders has been somewhat successful at this, is understanding the lack of trust and faith in American institutions. He says America is not great anymore. There are many people who subscribe to that belief, partly out of their own pain.
[00:45:01] What has began as a nativism, almost neo-fascist campaign in which Trump was talking about Muslims and being fearful and a real demagogic campaign has now expanded to the point where there may be a kind of screw you vote about Washington, about the process that he could be the beneficiary of, and Hillary Clinton would not benefit from that similar factor, and that people would no longer think of Trump as dangerous but perhaps more benign than they did at the beginning of this exercise.
So I think all bets are off, as I said, and we're heading somewhere toward debates at the end of the process that could be pivotal; but we don't know where we're going here.
LEMON: Yes, I see a lot of head nods from my panel, my dream team, who is agreeing with you.
Listen, I want to ask you about -- continue to talk about Hillary Clinton, you mentioned her. She really has the nomination locked up, it appears, by all the numbers, but, you know, of course, Sanders is saying he's going to go on to the convention. I'm hearing from a lot of insiders in the Clinton camp and the GOP, realistically, what are the odds they give Donald Trump, in the faceoff with Hillary Clinton?
BERNSTEIN: Well I've talked to a lot of Democrats around Hillary Clinton today who are very worried about running against Trump. They'd much rather run against Cruz. I talked to some Republican regulars who were part of the stop Trump moment who say they think Trump has at least a 25-percent chance of beating Hillary Clinton.
But the folks around Hillary, who are not the usual Clinton Kool-Aid drinkers, because as Patti Doyle can tell you, it's a different lineup. There are a lot Obama people at the head of her campaign, not the usual people who were close to her in the past, and they are worried. They know that their candidate has performed awfully and that Bernie Sanders has drubbed her. He won tonight, which we might be underestimating the effect of that, not because he will win the delegates but means it's one more chink in her armor, going in, and then she's perceived as vulnerable.
Then, back to this thing about the server. Trump is going to make a huge issue, as are the Republicans and even some Independents, about the server; that it was a reckless act, it was unpatriotic, it was a means to -
LEMON: Could it cost her the nomination if it blows up?
BERNSTEIN: Well if it blew up to the point of explosion, I don't believe they there will be an indictment. I think one of the reasons Bernie Sanders is staying in to the very end is on the off chance that something explosive would happen with the server. For instance, some kind of report by the FBI that got leaked that would be devastating to Hillary Clinton. I think there are going to be some leaks that are going to be damaging to Hillary Clinton.
Look, what she did was an act of recklessness and entitlement that there's no excuse for and she's going to have to go to the FBI, under oath, and explain why she did this. It will be the first time she will have to give a straight explanation and it's not going to be pretty. It's all part of this distrust, Crooked Hillary, as Trump is going to play it. Lyin' Ted, Crooked Hillary.
But also, remember, Donald Trump has an awful record in terms of truthfulness, in terms of his business, in terms of saying one thing and doing another. The democrats and Hillary Clinton are going to come after him, too. It's going to be a hell of a mud fight.
LEMON: You took the words right out of my mouth. Epic debates, Carl Bernstein. I can't wait to see them. I've got to take a break. Thank you, Carl Bernstein. I appreciate it.
LEMON: What will a debate between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton be like? I think it's --
NAVARRO: Godzilla versus King Kong.
LEMON: After the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (NEWS HEADLINES AIRED)
[00:52:35] LEMON: We are back. Bernie Sanders beats Hillary Clinton in Indiana and, of course, Trump was a big winner on the Republican side.
So let's continue to discuss the Democratic side. We just had Carl Bernstein on. He said something -- addressed something that you said that you could speak to better he said: Clinton doesn't have the regular Clinton people around her. What does that mean? What is he saying?
DOYLE: Well she has a lot of her old staff people around her. For instance, John Pedesto, who has been around for a long time, but she also has a lot of Obama, old Obama campaign staffers around her.
LEMON: What does that mean?
DOYLE: I think since Obama has won two presidential campaigns, it's smart to have people who have won in this day and age, presidential campaign helping her. But I do take issue to what he said that they think she's a horrible campaigner and that she's been drubbed by Bernie Sanders. I mean, she's got 3 million more votes than Sanders. She has 300 more pledged delegates than Bernie Sanders and she's won more states than Bernie Sanders. She's doing pretty well.
LEMON: I mean, like, they feel like this should be wrapped up already; correct?
KONST: Of course they feel that way. She had 500 super delegates pledged in August of last year. A lot of her staff is former DNC members, people who ran the DNC. If you don't think they're holding hands along this path and nervous Bernie Sanders has won so many states, that they're tied nationally, that Bernie Sanders beats Donald Trump, not just in math, --
LEMON: They are tied?
KONST: They are tied, just about tied nationally right now, statistically, the fact he beats Donald Trump. He beats him on the map; he beats him electorally; he beats him in national polls; he beats them statewide -
DOYLE: So does Hillary.
KONST: Not by the margins; he beats by 20-percent.
DOYLE: I take a little bit of an issue just because what any democratic nominee needs to do is do what Obama did and that is bring together that coalition of voters that he did: African-Americans, Hispanics, women, young people. And, yes, Bernie Sanders is winning young people but he has yet to prove that he can win in diverse states.
KONST: That's not true. That's just not true.
LEMON: Why do the Bernie Sanders people get so upset when you say it's virtually impossible for him to win? If you look at the map, if you look at what John King said, it's not saying it can't happen, but it doesn't mean you are counting him out. You are just being realistic about the math. It's an uphill climb.
KONST: So while we have been focusing on the Republican Party being burned down in a contested convention, one thing we haven't been talking about is how neither candidate is going to hit that 2383 pledged delegate mark by June, which is what the DNC rules are, and it will come down to super delegates on the convention floor. Now if he flips them, okay. You know [00:55:02] very well that Hillary Clinton doesn't want a win having 500 super delegates back in August and all those people are people -- a lot of those super delegates have voted against -- have endorsed Hillary Clinton against their own districts, who voted for Bernie Sanders. A lot of them are DNC members, lobbyists, party officials. They're not all elected that are responsible to answer to their voters.
LEMON: Not to give this short - not to give this short trip, but you like, what Carl said about the emails, quickly, because you're like that was music to your ears.
SEXTON: It is, because Hillary has no realistic defense against the fact that, even if she's not indicted, she set up a private server which is different from what everybody else did. Using private email is not the same as your own served, because she wanted to evade transparency requirements, because she wanted to be able to hide Clinton Foundation business from the prying eyes of the public. That's just the -- that's just the fact. There's no way around that. Donald Trump in the debates is going to make a lot of hay on this. Hillary defenders may say, oh, it's within the rules. There's a difference between criminal and blatantly unethical -
DOYLE: This is Hillary Clinton. Clinton invented the war room. If you think they're going to stand there idly and take incoming and not have deep -
DOYLE: -- research against Donald Trump -- he has Trump University; he's got --
LEMON: He doesn't care about any of that. Guess what?
NAVARRO: And not a thing has stuck.
LEMON: And guess what? We got a whole other hour. There's a whole other show to devote to this. We will talk about what the - possibly a debate between Hillary Clinton and Bernie - not Bernie Sanders, we've seen that. Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump will look like.
When we come right back, we're going to talk more about Indiana, the big victory for Donald Trump and a loss for Hillary Clinton. Don't go anywhere.