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Sadiq Khan's First Week as London Mayor; Brazil Senate Voting on Rousseff Impeachment; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired May 11, 2016 - 14:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight and happening right now: Brazil's senate votes on impeaching the president, Dilma Rousseff.
She told me that she'd fight to the bitter end.
But will she survive?
The former president Fernando Enrique Cardoso joins the show live from Sao Paolo.
Also ahead: they are calling him the most important Muslim politician in the West today. The new London mayor, Sadiq Khan, hits out at Donald
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SADIQ KHAN, MAYOR OF LONDON: My message to Donald Trump and his team is that your views of Islam are ignorant. It is possible to be a Muslim and
to live in the West.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
AMANPOUR: Having refused to bow to the politics of fear, hatred and division, London is a city embarking on a new journey after voting in its
first-ever Muslim mayor.
Sadiq Khan is spending his first week on the job after winning the biggest personal mandate of any politician in British history, despite his
opponent's trying to paint him as a dangerous extremist. His victory takes on global significance at this time of religious and racial division and
outright Islamophobia around Europe and in the United States.
Indeed, when I met him at city hall for his first international television interview, he showed that he's not shy about speaking up for tolerance and
speaking out against fear and loathing on the U.S. campaign trail, confronting the Trump effect head-on.
AMANPOUR: Mayor Khan, welcome to the program.
KHAN: It's great to be here, it really is.
AMANPOUR: You know, you are trending all over the world. Your election has grabbed headlines and attention everywhere, more seriously because the
Islamic factor, the Muslim factor has been a big factor.
Are you surprised about that?
And what is your take on that?
KHAN: You know, my view is I'm born and raised in London. This is my city. Is in 2016, we're global citizens. We have multiple identities. So
I'm a Londoner, I'm British, I'm European, I'm a father, I'm a dad. I'm of Islamic faith. I'm of Asian origin, of Pakistani heritage. And so no one
thing defines who we are.
But in the current climate, with the sort of election the Conservative Party chose to have, I think the result last Thursday is a huge vindication
for what a wonderful city London is but also that Western liberal values are compatible with mainstream Islam.
You know, last Thursday, we had a record turn-out, a record vote that we secured for me. I think that shows, actually, that people do care about
these things. They understand that you can be a Muslim and be Western, you can be a Muslim and be British, you can be both. And so and obviously I'm
chuffed that I'm proud that I'm pleased and stuff. But you know, now, because the job of actually delivering as the mayor of London.
AMANPOUR: But already, you have engaged in a war of words with Donald Trump. Donald Trump has been very divisive and as you have said, has
played the fear and anger card in his election, like you've described your Tory opponent for mayor.
Tell me what you feel about the whole idea of banning Muslims from the United States. You presumably would not be able to visit.
KHAN: Look, people understandably have fears. Now there's two ways of dealing with that. One issue, play on people's fears or, two, is you
address them. And I think the Conservative Party here used the Donald Trump playbook when it came to the election.
It was obvious that I'm a Muslim. You can tell that from my name. And I've never hidden the fact that I'm Muslim. And to try and seek to divide
communities, to try and give the impression that somehow our city may be less safe if I was the mayor, I think that was rejected last week.
And the point I made last week during my acceptance speech was London has chosen hope over fear. I'm really proud that London chose unity over
And my message to Donald Trump and his team is that your views of Islam are ignorant. It is possible to be a Muslim and to live in the West. And it's
possible to be a Muslim and to love America. I have got family --
KHAN: -- members who are American. We have often been to America on holiday. My kids used to love Disneyland.
I'm scared of some of the rides but we still love going to Disneyland. We still love going there, being there as a minister. I'm not exceptional.
So for Donald Trump to say Mayor Khan can be allowed but not the rest is ridiculous because there are business people here who want to do business
in America who happen to be Muslim.
There are young people here who want to study in America who happen to be Muslim. There are people here who want to go on holiday in America who
happen to be Muslim and around the world.
Now by giving the impression that Islam and the West are incompatible, you're playing into the hands of the extremists.
AMANPOUR: You've said that you actually want to do business and go and learn from and exchange ideas with mayors of great American cities like in
New York or in Chicago.
Would you go under a Donald Trump presidency?
KHAN: Well, I'm not sure if he'd allow me to go because I may have members of entourage who are Muslim. But the point is this, it's not just about
me. It's about the message it sends from the greatest country in the world.
And what is the story of America?
And I think you know, I think Donald Trump doesn't get the history of America. My point with respect to Americans is, look, you know, I think
you've got a choice when it comes to the elections in November. You've got a choice of hope over failure. You've got a choice of unity over division.
You've got a choice of somebody who is trying to divide, not just your communities in America but divide America from the rest of the world.
And I think that's not the America that I know and love. I'll do -- of course I'll go to America because, you know, I love the country.
But also, I think, New York and Chicago and Austin and other parts of America have a lot to teach this city, how do we address the issue of
How do we fix air quality?
How do we do integration better?
How do we keep our cities safe in policing?
So, of course, I'll travel to America. But I'm hoping that he's not the guy that wins.
AMANPOUR: And in fact, you've called yourself a feminist and you'd like to perhaps see a female president in the United States.
KHAN: Look, not only does Hillary have a fantastic track record and she's very, very experienced, I'm the father of two daughters. I'm a proud
feminist in city hall.
Just imagine the message it sends to my daughters and to girls around the world that the President of the United States of America is a woman, not
any woman, a woman with the gravitas, with the experience, somebody who is a unifier in leading the USA.
And she'll be an inspiration, she'll be an inspiration. I'm quite clear in my mind who I want to be the president of the USA.
AMANPOUR: Obviously we're in a really difficult state right now. We see divisions across Europe. We see terrorism committed by extremist Muslims.
We see 800 British Muslims have gone from this comfortable country to join ISIS.
What do you think you can do?
What do you think your significance is, as the first Muslim mayor of London and a prominent Muslim politician, to try to address this issue?
And how do you think you could do it?
KHAN: Do you know, one of the really troubling things over the last decade and a half is, if you look at 9/11, these were foreigners ostensibly coming
in from outside, to destroy our way of life. What 7/7, the bombings in London 2005 showed us, also the atrocities in Paris and Brussels, is these
people who try and kill us, maim us, terrorize us, are born and raised here.
And so we've got have a plan how we address extremism, how we address radicalization, how we keep our cities and our countries and our people
safe. If it is the case that people have no sense of belonging, we want to give it to them.
But I'm not excusing terrorism or criminality. We have got to make sure people integrate better. We have got to promote positive role models.
When the nihilistic preachers of hate come along and say, you know what, this country hates you because you're a Muslim, you know what, all the
problems around the world are caused by Western foreign policy, you know what, the reason you haven't got a job is because you're a Muslim, you know
what, the reason why you're in overcrowded housing is because you're a Muslim. You know what? Young people have the resilience to say, you're
talking rubbish. Some of my best friends are Jews, are Christians, are Hindus. They don't hate us. I break bread with them. I work for one.
Actually, when you say they hate us, what about that successful journalist who's a Muslim?
What about that successful doctor?
Dare I say it?
What about the mayor of London who's a Muslim?
And we have got to teach resilience to our youngsters. We've got to make sure, look, prisons can be places where people are radicalized radicalize
others. We have got to make sure we deradicalize people who believe this nihilistic way is success in this world and the hereafter. That's
You know, the President of the United States of America, saying Muslims are not allowed, is not the way to do that.
AMANPOUR: I read that, when you were a minister, one of your positions meant that you had to be sworn in by the queen. And Buckingham Palace
called you and asked you what Bible would you like to be sworn in on.
KHAN: Yes, so I'll have the privilege --
KHAN: -- of being what's called a Privy Counsellor, the queen's advisers, which means, before my name are the words "right honorable." And so before
I went to my swearing-in ceremony and I had a phone call from the palace.
And there are, as you know, there are various versions of the Bible. And they asked which version I'd like to use.
And I said, "A Muslim version, please." And they didn't get the joke.
And I asked for a Quran. And they didn't have one.
And then asked if I could bring mine along with me, which I did, no problem at all.
And one of the -- a day I'll never forget, you know, you kiss the queen's hand and you swear the oath and you become a Privy Counsellor.
But as I was leaving, the palace returned my Quran and I said, you know what, keep it here for the next person. Because I was the first ever Privy
Counsellor of the Islamic faith. And the good news is they kept it there. And a year later, another British Muslim became Privy Counsellor. So it
was -- made it -- it was used, which I'm really pleased about.
AMANPOUR: On that note, Mayor Sadiq Khan, thanks for joining us.
KHAN: My pleasure.
AMANPOUR: A great story, of course, and we'll have much more of our interview with Sadiq Khan, including his plans for London on our Friday
show and throughout the weekend.
Now the London mayor and the London bus effect, Britain's biggest Muslim charity is going to stamp the iconic red double-deckers.
These signs saying, "Subhan Allah," meaning "glory to God," are designed to deter extremism across the country.
And when we come back, at this very hour, the Brazilian senate is deciding on the impeachment of President Dilma Rousseff.
An assault on democracy?
I asked the former president, Enrique Cardoso, how does Latin America's biggest country survive this?
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
Well, it is decision day in Brazil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): These now are live pictures from the senate where a historic vote is underway on whether or not to take up the lower house and
their overwhelming vote to impeach President Dilma Rousseff for allegedly breaking budget rules.
If the senate does as it is expected, then Rousseff will be suspended for up to 180 days while a political trial takes place. She herself is going
down fighting. She won't resign. She has over and over again insisted, as she did to me, that she's a victim of a coup and a president can only be
kicked out at the polls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DILMA ROUSSEFF, PRESIDENT OF BRAZIL (through translator): I wish to tell you one thing more than just thinking that I will survive, I will fight to
survive, not just for my term in office but I will fight because what I am advocating and defending is the democratic principle that governs political
life in Brazil.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Well, right now, Brazil is in the midst of a major political crisis and it couldn't come at a worse time, because the country is
suffering a major economic crisis as well, a slowdown battling -- and as well as battling the Zika virus and preparing to welcome hundreds of --
AMANPOUR: -- thousands of Olympic athletes and spectators to the Summer Games in Rio. The former Brazilian president, Fernando Enrique Cardoso,
joins me from San Paolo to discuss this.
AMANPOUR: Mr. President, welcome to the show.
We have these live pictures. It's happening right now in Brasilia.
What is your prediction?
Is the senate going to vote to impeach her?
FERNANDO ENRIQUE CARDOSO, FORMER PRESIDENT OF BRAZIL: Well, first of all, as you say, thank you very much for having me here today. As you know, the
congress, the senate, is still working. We have not yet the final result.
But probably there is this issue to be -- to continue to proceed with the impeachment process with President Dilma Rousseff. I don't know to what
extent you know about the steps necessary --
CARDOSO: -- to perform -- to accomplish the impeachment process.
Do you know?
AMANPOUR: I do. She will be suspended if they make this vote and then there will be a political trial and then we'll see what her fate is.
But I want to ask you why you support this, because you didn't support the impeachment at the beginning. You've only recently come to the impeachment
side of the debate.
CARDOSO: Yes. OK, I was reluctant at the beginning because I know how hard is the process of impeachment. I remember, I was in senate when
President Collor was impeached. At the time our preoccupation was because it won't be possible for the military to back again be controlling Brazil.
Now it's different. Brazil is a sound democracy. There is even a much more mature separation of the government and the state, the judicial
system, federal police, the fiscals, et cetera, are acting independently.
So I was reluctant because of the reasons. Anyhow, I have to take into account that the incumbent has received millions of votes and the
impeachment has stopped the mandate. So it's difficult for anyone to accept that idea.
Anyhow, the constitution is very clear. If there are clear non-fulfillment of constitutional provisions and some eternity (ph) the political base is
lacking for a president, then it is the case to discuss the impeachment.
AMANPOUR: Well, Mr. President --
CARDOSO: -- so the house of representatives has to say --
AMANPOUR: Yes, I'm sorry to interrupt you; I know what you're saying. But the president says to me that, actually, why is she being targeted, because
many administration, including your own, did these kind of creative budget accounting. Let me play you what she said to me about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROUSSEFF (through translator): It has nothing to do with the previous electoral process, nor it has to do with cooking or fiddling the books or
accounts. It does have to do with something that has always been current, ongoing practice in Brazil, by all administrations prior to mine.
Even time in office to 2011, '12 and '13, that was acceptable practice. It was also regular, ordinary practice under Lula da Silva and the
administration, also under the previous Cardoso administrations.
So if then it was not a crime, why is it an impeachable offense today?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So she has a point.
If it wasn't a crime then, why is it a crime today?
CARDOSO: Well, because in the past it was not a crime. The fiscal responsibility law was done by my government in the year 2000. So I had
only two years under the law.
In spite of that, I never made in continuity the kind of covering, the kind of, you know, disguising of data to the nation. And what has been done by
President Rousseff was during several months and even years in a very high amount of money, 60 billion real, that is to say around $25 billion, in
order not to show to the (INAUDIBLE) the fiscal deficits in her government.
So this is what was against what is said by the constitution. And in order to continue to expense money, she wrote several decrease without the
authorization by congress. So it's quite different from what I did and President Lula, we did it quite -- we proceeded in a very different way.
So that is a clear case of impeachment. If you read the -- by reading the constitution , it's obvious that this is against the constitution.
AMANPOUR: So what happens next, Mr. President?
AMANPOUR: Michel Temer is likely to take over as acting president and live out this term. But obviously the economy is in really bad shape and
investors need confidence.
Is Brazil in the kind of a state to even attract investors and bring the economy out of the doldrums, out of its hole?
CARDOSO: Well, the point -- I don't know if I got correctly what you said. But the point of confidence in Brazil came from the fact that it is an
enormous amount of corruption, not just inside government but sustained by people in government.
So this is serious. And it is affecting the markets. And more important than that, it's affecting the sentiment by people in the sense that people
don't trust anymore in political system, political life.
So it's a serious situation. How to regain confidence, that's the case. Since President Rousseff was not able to regain confidence, she never was
able to address to the nation, to explain clearly the difficulties, including why was she proceeding the way she was.
So there is increasingly a lack of confidence. So now for an eventual new government, the first question is to regain confidence inside Brazil,
inside people and then the market and then the whole world.
But that's the key question, Brazil, the lack of confidence. And now there is no more confidence in President Dilma Rousseff as well as in the
political system. To me, it's a more profound crisis than just the case of President Rousseff. It's a crisis of the political system in Brazil.
AMANPOUR: On that note, President Cardoso, thank you very much for joining me, as this senate debate and vote is still underway. Thanks so much.
AMANPOUR: And next, we imagine a storm in a palace garden party teacup. There's off-mike comments and then there are off-mike comments when the
queen and her prime minister are involved. To gaffe or not to gaffe -- when we return.
AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, there is nothing more rarified, scripted, controlled and protocoled to the max than Buckingham Palace and Her Majesty
So imagine a world ricocheting with the forbidden sound of her royal thoughts and words, which were all caught off-mike, not once but twice in
the space of one day.
At one of her annual palace garden parties, chatting to a police commander about the recent Chinese state visit here, the queen, diplomatically
speaking, was breaking bad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): Can I present Commander Lucy D'Orsi, Gold Commander when the Chinese state visit --
ELIZABETH II, QUEEN OF ENGLAND: Oh, bad luck.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- who was seriously undermined by the Chinese.
COMMANDER LUCY D'ORSI: I'm not sure whether you knew, but it was quite a testing time for me.
ELIZABETH II, QUEEN OF ENGLAND: I did.
D'ORSI: It was -- I think at the point that they walked out of Lancaster House and told me that the trip was off, I felt that --
QUEEN ELIZABETH: They were very rude to the ambassador.
D'ORSI: They were. Well, she was -- yes, Barbara was with me -- and they walked out on both of us.
QUEEN ELIZABETH: Extraordinary.
D'ORSI: It was very rude and very undiplomatic, I thought.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The Chinese are hurt. They censored these royal comments on their media and issued a statement, saying the trip was hugely successful.
Not to be outdone, Prime Minister David Cameron, having drinks with the queen now inside the palace, sounded off about a summit which he's hosting
on the tricky issue of corruption.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID CAMERON, PRIME MINISTER, GREAT BRITAIN: We had a very successful cabinet meeting this morning to talk about our anti-corruption summit,
we've got the Nigerians. We've actually got some leaders of some fantastically corrupt countries coming to Britain. Nigeria and
Afghanistan, possibly the two most corrupt countries in the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now to his credit, the Archbishop of Canterbury, standing there between them, leapt to the defense of Nigeria's new president, saying that
he is tackling corruption.
And when I spoke to him this afternoon, I found Muhammadu Buhari's nose much less put out of joint than the Chinese.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: You are here for an anti-corruption summit and try to tackle this big scourge. Of course, it's been overshadowed by what the prime
minister said to the queen about your country and Afghanistan, calling you "fantastically corrupt."
What is your reaction to that?
MUHAMMADU BUHARI, PRESIDENT OF NIGERIA: Well, I think he is being honest about it. He is talking about what he knows about the two of us,
Afghanistan and Nigeria.
And by what we are doing in Nigeria, by the day, I don't think you can fault him. I hope he did not address the press. He said it privately and
somehow you got to know it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Well, not defensive at all. And you can see the rest of that interview tomorrow.
But that's it for our program tonight. Remember, you can listen to our podcast, see us online at amanpour.com and follow me on Facebook and
Twitter. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.