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Donald Trump Doesn't Add Up to $10 Billion; Trump Attacks NYT Story on His Treatment of Women; The Crucial State of Ohio; Mark Cuba to Vote for "The Devil You Know". Aired 10-11p ET

Aired May 16, 2016 - 22:00   ET



[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: What is the worst thing you could say about Donald Trump?

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

The real estate and reality show star turned presidential candidate says he is worth $10 billion. Well, tonight, I'm going to talk to the man who says that just doesn't add up. And he says Trump would have run out of money if he'd kept his promise to self-fund his campaign.

Plus, what's the truth about how Donald Trump treats women? He calls the New York Times story on him, quote, "false and malicious and libelous."

I'll talk to the former girlfriend who defends Trump. And a woman who was a top executive in his company.

Meanwhile, as we count down to tomorrow's Kentucky and Oregon primaries, Hillary Clinton takes him at the GOP's presumptive nominee.


HILLARY CLINTON, (D) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What Trump says about foreign policy is not just offensive, it's dangerous. And people know that you've got a steady hand in the White House.


And it will be at the center of this fall campaign. Because I don't think most Americans want a loose cannon in the Oval Office.


LEMON: We'll get to all of that. But let's begin though, with Donald Trump's finances and the billionaire who says he is not voting for Trump.

Here to discuss, Barry Bennett, the senior adviser to the Trump campaign. Peter Grant, a reporter for the Wall Street Journal, and William Cohan, contributing editor at Vanity Fair and author of "The Price of Silence." Good to have all of you, and here on set with me in New York with me.

Thank you very much. Barry, I'll start with you. Billionaire Mark Cuban was CNN on Erin Burnett tonight and, you know, I'm sure you saw he had dire predictions about the economy if Donald Trump became president. Listen to this.


MARK CUBAN, BILLIONAIRE BUSINESSMAN: It's apparent that he really hasn't invested the time to really do a deep dive and understand, you know, the issues that we're facing. And the things he says he wants to do. That's an issue.

Now, when you have that amount of uncertainty, when you're flip- flopping, when you're not sure what the candidate's going to say from one thing to another. That uncertainty, you know, potentially, as the President of the United States, that's the last thing Wall Street wants to hear.

And I can say with 100 percent certainty that there's a really good chance we could see a huge, huge correction, unless he comes up with some concrete examples of what he's going to do, it could really turn Wall Street up and down. And all those 401k's from all of his followers, their net worth could fall further than Donald's would.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST, "OUTFRONT": When you say a huge, huge correction, what does that mean, I mean, you think stocks could go down what, 20 percent? Is that reasonable? What could happen, how bad could it be?

CUBAN: It could be 20 percent. You know, now with high-frequency trading, accelerating, you know, strong moves in any direction, it could be worse than that. How long, I don't know. It doesn't necessarily we'll roll into in a recession. But I don't think there's any question.


LEMON: Interesting. What do you say to that, Barry?

BARRY BENNETT, TRUMP CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: I'm not going to take investment advice or political advice from Mark. I'll stick to -- I like his basketball team, but that's where I draw the line right there.

LEMON: But I mean, that's a pretty dire prediction saying that the stock market is going to tank and there would be a major correction.

BENNETT: I think it's pretty irresponsible and, you know, I don't -- I didn't see a lot of the market going short this afternoon after Mark said that.

LEMON: So, listen, Mark Cuban was a -- he said, if on election day, if it were held today, right, he would vote for Hillary Clinton, he would not vote for Donald Trump. He said she's more reliable. It's the devil you know. WILLIAM COHAN, "THE PRICE OF SILENCE" AUTHOR: You know, what he said

about market correcting, you know, I was last week out at the Salt conference in Las Vegas, the hedge fund conference. A lot of republicans there.

And what I realized was that a lot of these Wall Street republican guys are slowly coming around to Donald Trump. Now, not so slowly anymore. I don't think they wanted him originally, but now that he's going to be the nominee, I think they're supporting him.

And contrary to what Mark Cuban said, I actually think they think it's a good thing to have a businessman in the White House, an entrepreneur in the White House. That's what they're all very excited about right now.

LEMON: They like the business part of it.

COHAN: They like the business part of it. Which is interesting, because Mark Cuban is obviously a very good businessman, and I usually respect everything he says. But I think he's going to be right about that.

I think the fact that a businessman, if Donald wins, the fact that a businessman is in the White House appeals to businessmen.

LEMON: OK. I have to ask you this, Peter, because you're out with this new piece in the Wall Street Journal that says, "Donald Trump wouldn't have had the cash to self-finance his entire campaign, and then you do the analysis on this."

Trump doesn't have the cash, you said, to keep funding his own campaign. How did you come to this conclusion?

PETER GRANT, WALL STREET JOPURNAL REPORTER: Well, we were given a road map last summer when Trump filed a personal financial disclosure form. Up until now, there's been a great tumble, that debate about what Trump is worth.

Now for one of the first times, he's had to lay that open to the public and do it on a federal form, with the office of government ethics.

[22:05:00] Now, you can mince words a little bit when you're talking to the public, but you don't want to do that with the office of government ethics.

LEMON: I think you said about $160 billion before taxes is put...

GRANT: No, $160 million.

LEMON: A $160 million. Excuse me, that was my bad.

GRANT: And the point is that that isn't what he's worth.

LEMON: Righ. GRANT: And that's the big issue that Trump keeps talking about. That's how much cash he's making during the year and that's the available cash he would have to self-finance his campaign.

LEMON: So what would he have to do then if he wanted to.

GRANT: Well, up until now...

LEMON: He doesn't have the money, so there's nothing he could do. He could sell assets or borrow against his assets.

GRANT: Well, exactly. But he doesn't want to do that. You see, Donald Trump, I've been covering him for a long time, he's become more conservative in his -- in the latter stage of his business career.

LEMON: For debt.

GRANT: For debt, exactly.

LEMON: Right.

GRANT: He also doesn't want to sell assets. In this personal financial disclosure, he said he had liquid assets some about $78 to $232 million. He doesn't want to get rid of it all to self-finance, he doesn't want to be left with nothing in case he loses.

LEMON: So, for your analysis and you used this disclosure, to sort of you said this is sort of where we start.

GRANT: Exactly.

LEMON: So where do you say he is? Is he even close to $10 or $11 billion as he?

GRANT: I'm not going to go towards his value, because that's a talmudic subject. What is Donald Trump worth. Well, how, you know, what's the value?

LEMON: But it's a big deal for him, tough.

GRANT: It is, but what's more key in this election year is how much dough he has. How much money does he have.

BENNETT: Liquid.

GRANT: Because that's what you need to pay for commercials, to pay for airplanes, to pay for staff. You need cash.

COHAN: So, it's interesting that Peter says, you know, this $160 million number. When I interviewed him a few years ago, before he was the candidate, he told me in that Atlantic piece, he told me he had a billion dollars in cash, a billion dollars in cash, which would be more than enough to fund...

(CROSSTALK) LEMON: Let me just talk to you about the piece. I don't know if we have it there but it's a piece in The Atlantic and it's called, "what exactly is Donald Trump's deal? Is he a buffoon, a genius, an exploration of a man, his brand, and his chronic bluster?" So, you found out, he told you a $1 billion.

COHAN: He told me on the record he had $1 billion in cash available. Now, I don't see any evidence of that. Just like I don't see any evidence that he's worth $10 billion. I think actually now he's saying he's worth $11 billion.


COHAN: I don't see any evidence of that. And the reason I don't see any evidence of that is he's never made any of his personal business projections available. He did released that net worth statement, which said $10 billion in capital letters, but that doesn't mean he's worth $10 billion.

LEMON: So, Barry, the reason -- go ahead.

BENNETT: The UGE form is that thick.

COHAN: No, it doesn't add up. You need projections frm his business.

BENNETT: Well, I understand you need projections. But he had to provide everything that he's an office everything that he owns.


COHAN: And I agree with all of that. But doesn't mean he's worth 11 billion...

LEMON: OK. So -- all right.

BENNETT: No, no, I have no idea what he's worth, nor do I think it matters.

LEMON: You say it doesn't matter. Maybe it doesn't, to anybody else and other presidential campaign. But he said, I'm a businessman, I'm worth this, I'm not going to release my taxes.

When you said at the top of the show, what is the worst thing that you could say about Donald Trump, some pretty bad things have been said, but I think he would take offense the most to saying that he's not worth what he says he is. And some people say, that's why he won't release the tax return because it will show that he's not worth that.

BENNETT: Well, the tax return is never going to show your net worth. It's just going to show your income. Which you've done the calculation, and he says it's $160 million a year.

Pretty good in my book. But the amazing thing, through this whole campaign, is that, you know, he spent $37 million or $42 million, I don't know what the current number is in the campaign to win the primary. That's the fewest dollars spent per vote in modern political history.

So, it's -- yes, he's got plenty of money. He's got access to even more. But, how well they spent it was pretty amazing.


BENNETT: I mean, Jeb Bush went through $150 million. Donald Trump spent $37.

LEMON: There are big donors, though, who are concerned about Donald Trump and who are sort of sitting on the sidelines. How many times did Trump attack all the other candidates for taking money from big donors, though?

Some of which he might not get, but he's going to get some of it. So, he attacked them a lot. Now he's basically doing the same thing that he attacked them for.

BENNETT: Well, I mean, I think we're going to have to have $1 billion or maybe even more for the fall. You know, I don't know what Hillary is going to have, but we need a competitive amount of money.

But it's not all for the campaign, it's for the RNC, it's for the convention, it's a bunch of different things, and the contributions are all over the place. Plus, there's a lot of super PACs out there. I mean, Madison best interest to big donation for super PAC. So, there's going to be plenty of money.

LEMON: Yes. You think there'll be plenty of money. The RNC is going to -- and the RNC basically, in a way, is rescuing him, correct? Is that right? With the money that he's going to get from them and from the donors?

BENNETT: He's not going to get any money from them. He's going to raise money for them.


LEMON: Yes, exactly.

COHAN: And he's going to get plenty of money. I think the tide is turned on that. I think the people who are sitting on the sidelines especially on Wall Street have now decided that, OK, Donald is the guy, we've got to support him, we're republicans, we got to support this guy.

I mean, T. Boone Pickens the other day out in Las Vegas was saying, I can't wait to have this guy in the White House. I can't wait to have a businessman in the White House. And he clearly is opening up his checkbook.

[22:10:01] LEMON: If he doesn't show for the tax returns -- I know this is everyone keeps saying why you keep asking about the tax returns. Because every other presidential candidate has done it since the 1970s. If the tax returns are, you know, won't be indicative as you say, of

how much money he has or how much money he has and how much he's worth, then why not just release them? Or why not release the years that are not under audit.

BENNETT: Well, he's talking about releasing the years that are under audit as soon as the audit had been completed. But I mean, all that's going to show to everybody is what is a marginal tax rate, that's going to be the big story of the day.

That's the number of the year wants...

GRANT: And charitable contributions.

BENNETT: And charitable contributions and what his marginal tax rate is. I'm telling you, nobody in America cares. They care far more what their marginal tax rate is than they care about Donald Trump?

LEMON: Do you agree with that?

COHAN: No, I don't. Donald has made such a big issue about his net worth and how much money he makes every year. And I think it's important for people to see what a presidential candidate, let alone a potential president, pays for taxes.

And it would show his net income and his very sources of income which I think would be revelatory as would his donations, let's find out how charitable the guy is and where the source of his business is.

Because he's got this octopi-like a financial statement and it would be interesting to see that.

BENNETT: I agree with you, but America knows the tax system is rigged and the really rich pay less than a marginal tax rate than everybody else.

COHAN: And he would probably say the same things about the taxes that he'd say about bankruptcy. He'd say, I'm just using the system.

BENNETT: Well, yes. I mean, you know, carried interest, these guys, you know, get away with it.

LEMON: Here's what newspaper editorial boards are calling on. They're calling on Donald Trump to release his tax returns, saying that, "He should be willing to show he has lived up to his tax obligations that voters deserve better than Trump's haughty contempt. That his refusal to release them is fraternalistic and insulting." Do you see him releasing the tax returns before November? Any of you.

BENNETT: I don't know how close the audit is to being over.

COHAN: I don't think the audit's the issue. I think he could release his tax returns without the audit. I think he will release something before November.

LEMON: There are reports tonight, Barry, this is for you, that Donald Trump has hired a veteran pollster and strategist. His name is Tony Fabrizio who worked with Governor Rick Scott in Florida. Can you confirm that?

BENNETT: I haven't talked to them today, but, you know, I know that we'll be bringing pollsters into the campaign.

LEMON: So no confirmation?

BENNETT: Yes. I can't confirm Tony.

LEMON: OK. I want to -- William, can I talk to you about this? Because I mentioned this piece you did in the Atlantic. And the Atlantic as you said you said you posed the question, "what exactly is Donald Trump's deal? Is he a buffoon, a genius, an exploration of the man, his brand, and his chronic cluster."

If you wrote that article in 2016, what would your conclusion be?

COHAN: He's a master showman. I mean, he's unbelievable. I mean, I don't understand and this is why I think his tax returns are important and his net worth is important.

I don't understand why people who are -- have had a difficult time economically, who have now thrown so much of their support for him, who want to see change, why they think a guy who lives on Fifth Avenue, who flies around in a 757, who's worth something, some amount of billions of dollars, who lives in a pink marble mausoleum up in the sky is going to help them? I don't understand why they put so much faith in this guy. It's absolutely a mystery.

LEMON: Well, isn't it because many people think, well, maybe he can get me there or somewhere close.

COHAN: Does it really work that way? I don't think so.

LEMON: Does it work that way, Barry? You should think, you're working with a...


BENNETT: You know, I think what they want is someone with a bulldozer's license but that's what they want.

LEMON: Thank you, gentleman. I appreciate it.

When we come right back, will the general election come down to the battle for Ohio? And does Donald Trump have a shot there? Plus, why Trump says Bernie Sanders should make a third party run. We'll be right back.


LEMON: Ohio is a crucial state in the November election, and the candidate who wins it may well become the next president of the United States. So, I want you to listen what Ohio Governor John Kasich says about

Donald Trump, his former rival for the GOP nomination. He spoke to CNN's Anderson Cooper.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "AC360": Do you think Ohio is a Hillary Clinton state or a Donald Trump state?

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), OHIO: Well, I think that if you're not a unifier, you have a big problem. If you're going to double down on negative it isn't going to work.

COOPER: It doesn't work in Ohio?

KASICH: I don't think it does. No. You cannot be -- you cannot come into here with the glass half empty and polarize people and think you're going to win Ohio.


Let's discuss now with Larry Sabato, director for the Center of Politics at the University of Virginia. Good evening to you. I want to start with what John -- with what Governor Kasich said to Anderson Cooper.

He said that he has real doubts that Trump's message will win him in Ohio. What do you think? Too early to say that?

LARRY SABATO, VIRGINIA UNIVERSITY CENTER FOR POLITICS DIRECTOR: Well, it is too early to say. And actually, Trump does better in Ohio than he does in many of the other states we heard bandied about as potential Trump states, like Pennsylvania or Michigan.

To me, what Governor Kasich said is more a hint about whether he would be willing to accept the vice presidency. No.

LEMON: Yes. There was a recent poll, Larry, from Quinnipiac, that showed that Trump of leaning in Ohio by a small margin, within the margin of error. Should Hillary Clinton be concerned about that 43 to 39 percent?

SABATO: I'm not sure that I buy that poll. I think there were some problems with it. But I think to your question, Hillary Clinton should be very worried. The truth is that even though she should win based on everything we know about the direction in which the country's moving and the demographics.

She is not a very good campaigner, and she doesn't fit the profile particularly well for a state like Ohio. It's that blue-collar state that Trump potentially could do well in.

LEMON: So you said you have issues with the poll. You don't -- you don't think that it shows that he's actually leading? SABATO: I think it that underweighted minorities. And remember, it

was one of three. It also -- we also had a Pennsylvania poll and a Florida poll from Quinnipiac, and all three of them have problems of one sort or another.

I don't want to criticize it too heavily. I want to see some other pollsters go into these big states and show us what they find. Because that's how you verify or debunk a poll.

LEMON: So when you look at the map overall, Larry, can Trump defeat Hillary Clinton in a general election?

[22:19:58] SABATO: Yes. Is it probable? No. But can he do it? Yes. How can he do it? Suppose the country fell into a recession before November and it's possible. We're in the fourth longest economic expansion.

Just because economists say it doesn't look like it's going to happen, they always say that. And that doesn't mean it won't.

Second, while I don't want to discuss it in detail, you don't want to give anybody ideas, serious domestic terrorism could potentially help Trump. He's benefited every time one of those acts has happened domestically or internationally.

LEMON: Every current electoral college forecast does not favor Trump. Could that change by November?

SABATO: It could. It would have to change a lot. You know, my crystal ball operation has Clinton ahead 347 to 191. You need 270 to win. So obviously, she's way ahead. But I'll tell you something, she's not ahead by the margin I would have expected in many of the swing states. You know, it l relatively close. And she's got a lot of work to do.

LEMON: There's been a lot of talk, though, about a third party run from the right. Now Trump himself is trying to encourage Bernie Sanders to run as an independent. Who would hurt -- who would hurt the most -- who would be hurt the most by a third party candidate? Would it be Clinton or would be Trump?

SABATO: Well, they would both be hurt by different kinds of third party candidacy. Hey, on Bernie Sanders, suppose he took the green party nomination. We remember a guy named Ralph Nader, right, from 2000, who nationally won just 2.7 percent of the national vote.

He almost certainly cost Gore both Florida and New Hampshire. If Gore had even carried New Hampshire, forget about Florida, he would have been president.

LEMON: Yes. I want to look at some new polls. Let's look at these unfavorable ratings. Both Trump and Clinton have historic unfavorability ratings, that's according to the last CNN/ORC poll. Fifty percent for him, 49 percent for her.

Do you expect those to change much between now and the election? SABATO: The candidates will be working to decrease the unfavorables,

Don. The amusing part of it is, the campaign they're going to run, a scorched earth campaign, will probably increase the unfavorables on both sides.

In the end, people are going to go to the polls to vote against the candidate they hate most.

LEMON: That's not unprecedented. To these numbers, yes. But people do that all the time, but to these numbers it's going to be amazing to see. Thank you, Larry.


LEMON: I appreciate it. Always a pleasure.

SABATO: Thank you, Don. Thanks.

LEMON: All right.

Up next, Donald Trump versus The New York Times. He slams the newspaper for its story about his treatment of women over the decades. I'm going to talk to two women quoted in the article.


LEMON: Donald Trump slamming The New York Times, calling its story about him and his treatment of women a hit piece and a fraud. The Times is standing by its reporting.

I want to talk about this now with Rowanne Brewer Lane, a former model who was a companion of Trump for a time. Good evening. Thank you for joining us.


LEMON: You were prominently featured in The New York Times article everyone is talking about, it's called "Crossing the line: How Donald Trump behaved with women in private." You don't like it. What do you take issue with?

LANE: I don't like it because they didn't tell the story the way that I told them. They did not report it properly, and they told me that they would take care of making sure that my story came across the way I told it, and that is the farthest thing from the truth.

LEMON: Well, it starts about, you know, how you met Donald Trump, you were talking about a pool party, this is a beginning article at Mar-a- Lago, it's in the '90s and it says, for some reason, Donald seemed a little smitten with me. He just started talking to me and nobody else. He suddenly took me by the hand and he started to show me around the mansion.

He asked me if I had a swimsuit with me, I said no. I hadn't intended to swim. He took me into a room and opened drawers and he asked me to put on a swimsuit. I went into a bedroom and tried one on. I came out and he said, wow.

He brought me out to the pool and that said, that is a stunning Trump girl, isn't it? So, you were a model at the time and you said you were flattered and you later went on a date with Donald Trump. Did they misquote you?

LANE: They misquoted me. What they did was, they put part of what I said together and then said that he paraded me around or asked people what they thought of me. Isn't this a good-looking Trump girl, or isn't this the type of Trump girl, things like that that I've been hearing.

And what he actually said today was exactly that. You know, he said, well, she told me these events. And when it comes down to the bottom line, you know, basically what she told me is what we printed.

And, you know, basically, it's basically, you could spin it any way you want, I guess, if you're a spin doctor. I just didn't like the way that it came off. I asked them several times if it was a negative piece they were writing on him in general, because I didn't have anything negative to say with my experience with Donald.

And I was actually warned by some people that it can tend to get spun negative. And I said, that's impossible, because I'm not giving them a negative story. Now, you read it for yourself and anybody else that's read it has come back to me and said, you know, why the negative undertone. And I said, it wasn't me.

LEMON: But there are others who thought, you know, that they had a -- they felt that Donald Trump were humiliated by him. What's your reaction to those stories?

LANE: I wasn't part of those stories, I don't know. If they felt like they were humiliated by Donald, that's between Donald and them.

My experience with Donald Trump is absolutely just straight-up. He was a gentleman. He was thoughtful. He was kind, he was generous. He was a gentleman, you know? And he and I had a lot of fun together. I didn't have a negative experience.

LEMON: Do you think it comes as a surprise to most people in America that a man who was either single or going through a divorce would try to woo a woman or get her, you know, with tons of money and do you think that's a surprise to most people?

[22:29:55] No, I don't think it's a surprise. I mean, he happened to have a lot of money and that's, you know, we can't be mad at him for that. He happened to have a lot of money and, you know, he's a human being. He wanted companionship. We had great conversation. We had good time. We started, you know...

We started, you know, getting to know each other there. He did seem a little more smitten with me. I have thought about it and said that I actually was a little bit older than some of the other models that were there. I was 26 and some of the other models that were there were a bit

younger. So we probably had more in common, you know, and we had a lot of same things in common. So we did walk around and talk and got involved in a conversation that others weren't involved in.

And when we were going back to the party, he asked me if I had a swimsuit. I had not. It wasn't a big deal. No, I don't think that he did anything wrong. I don't think either one of us did.


LEMON: Let me ask you this before we...

LANE: I think what was wrong was having it made a big deal out of and acted like he was treating me like a piece of, you know, meat or something.

LEMON: Our time is running short. I hate to cut you off, but I want to ask you this. Because he is saying that it was a hit piece. You saw what he tweeted. We had The New York Times reporters on our air. They're standing by, they don't have to pull it here, but they're basically standing by their article. What do you say to them?

LANE: Shame on you. You told me, many, many times that it was not going to have a negative connotation, that it was not a hit piece, over and over again, and that was basically -- I was lied to.

LEMON: Would you be comfortable with him as president?

LANE: I would support Donald Trump as president, yes.

LEMON: Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

LANE: Thank you.

LEMON: All right.

Hey, let's bring in now Barbara Res. Barbara is a former engineer of a Trump construction project, you were also part of that story, right? And she's also the author of "All Alone on the 68th Floor: How One Woman Changed the Face of Construction."

Thank you so much for joining us. You were featured in this article.


LEMON: What was your experience with Donald Trump? Was it what was portrayed in this New York Times article?

RES: It was a lot more than what was portrayed in the article, but the article pretty much quoted me the way I spoke it.

LEMON: Did you think it was negative? Do you think there was an agenda attached to it?

RES: It's hard to say, you know, you know, I think that you would probably come away with a negative feeling about Trump, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there was an agenda to make it that way, maybe that the facts make it that way.

LEMON: OK. So, you -- here's what the article shows Trump in a couple of different lights. And I want to read a bit of it. "Some women found him gracious and encouraging. He promoted several to the loftiest heights of his company, a daring move for a major real estate developer at that time."

"He simultaneously nurtured women's careers and mocked their physical appearance. You like your candy, he told an overrate female executive who oversaw the construction of his headquarters in midtown Manhattan. He could be lewd at one moment and gentlemanly the next." So, that was you and he was talking you. How did that make you feel?

RES: Well, I was hurt by him making that comment. I have had heard him make that comment to somebody else actually the same. It wasn't exactly, you like your candy. I can't remember exactly what it was. But I didn't want like the fact that he would say that to me, but it wasn't a big deal to me.

LEMON: Would you say he's obsessed with looks?

RES: Yes. To a degree, absolutely.

LEMON: Explain that to me. How so?

RES: Well, I mean, he would criticize -- for as long as I know him, he's always had comments on people's appearances, you know, primarily weight male and female.

LEMON: Do you think that that help or hurt him? Because quite honestly, one of the observations I had when I visited Trump towers to do several times to do interviews with him, is that everyone is attracted, attractively dressed, clean, the building is very efficient. One of the most efficient building I've ever been in New York City.

Do you think that has worked for him? Is that a business attribute? Or do you think that is a detriment to him in some way?

RES: Well, it's certainly not a detriment. I don't know that it would work for him -- I think that people like to go into an office and see nicely dressed, nicely groomed people. Whether they have to be models is something else. I mean, he used to literally have models.

LEMON: Yes, yes. There was a point in the article where the article quotes that you detailing -- detailing a meeting with Donald Trump and an architect and he said that "women in California take care of their asses." Where did that come from? Were you shocked to that?

RES: It came out of nowhere. We're talking about moving in del ray. And he said, I hear the women in Marina del Rey, you know, do that and I was very surprised, and the architect was surprised and it came and went.

LEMON: So did you ever say anything?

RES: No, I didn't say anything to him. Because this was in a period of time when I started changing. Now I worked for him for a long time and on several projects. And we were very close at one point. And it was a small company, only about 10 people. And he was very different then. And I saw him change over time.

LEMON: So you think he evolved?

RES: Oh, absolutely,.

LEMON: When it came to these issues. Was it a little bit early on that these things happened and then over time he stop dealing stop acting that way or did anything that way?

[22:34:59] RES: No. Initially he was extremely respectful to everyone and his mother was alive then and he had Ivana and she was very important in the business and he had a lot of very strong women working for him. Over time, he started to talk about women, especially when he got involved with Marla.

LEMON: So in your estimation, he devolved instead of evolved?

RES: I guess so, it devolved, yes.

LEMON: So he was gentlemanly. You think his mother played a role in at?

RES: I think his mother was a big influence of his wife, and Ivana played a role and it sure.

He says he loved women. Polls don't necessarily show that. In a recent poll, 64 percent of women have an unfavorable lewd with him. Are you surprised by that?

RES: No, not at all. Especially with the comments that have come out now on Howard Stern and some of the things he even said in his book that people weren't paying attention to.

LEMON: Are you grateful for the opportunity he gave you?

RES: Absolutely. And I think he's grateful he took a chance on me and I worked out very well for him.

LEMON: What would you say to him?

RES: What would I say to him?

LEMON: Do you still talk to him?

RES: I don't -- I think he got a little annoyed at me about my book. I ran into him at a funeral and he was kind of nasty to me. But I would say, good luck with life, Donald, but I don't think that you're, you know, should be president.

LEMON: You're supporting Hillary Clinton. RES: I am supporting Hillary. She's right on the women's issues and

what's important to me.

LEMON: Thank you, Barbara Res. I appreciate it. It was a pleasure meeting you. Thank you so much.

RES: OK. You, too.

LEMON: When we come right back, Hillary Clinton mocks Donald Trump. Why she says she is looking forward. Don't go anywhere.


LEMON: Donald Trump's battle with The New York Times getting a lot of attention tonight, but his real Achilles heel may be something else.

Joining me now to discuss is democratic strategist, Hilary Rosen, republican strategist Kevin Madden, and Donald Trump supporter, Kayleigh McEnany.

Kevin, to you first, is this a bit of news that we are getting the Trump campaign has hired political strategist and pollster Tony Fabrizio who work with Florida Governor Rick Scott, and Kentucky Matt Bevin.

I want to know your reaction. I believe you and Hilary both know him and may have worked with him. What's your reaction?

KEVIN MADDEN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, he is very regarded and very experienced operative. I think one of the signs that, one of the signals that sends to the Hillary Clinton camp is that Donald Trump is professionalizing his operation.

I think one of the criticisms that you've seen from both republicans and democrats is that, you know, Donald Trump is not really running a real campaign and that he's winging it. I think someone like Tony Fibrizio, again, very well regarded, a lot of experience working on big key races.

He'll bring a certain level of discipline to the campaign that is much-needed. And also if you look at who he's worked for in the past, folks like Rick Scott and Matt Bevin. Both candidates that ran as outsiders who worked as outsiders, who were previously businessmen who shook up the status quo. That's exactly the kind of persona Donald Trump is trying to bring to the presidential race. So, he has experience there as well.

LEMON: I see you, Hilary, nodding in agreement. So, I won't even ask your response, because it was, I think that you were nodding in agreement.

But Kevin, I just want to ask you, what's the bigger problem for Donald Trump? The issue that he may or may not have here? Is it with women or is it not releasing the taxes? MADDEN: Well, look, I think if when you're looking at numbers as high

as they are ever with the unfavorabilities among women, that is going to be a very difficult challenge to overcome. When you're looking at 70 percent amongst women overall, but also inside the subset of republican women, I think as he looks to consolidate his base, he's faces a significant challenge there.

And in order for Donald Trump to win, he's going to have to turn states that Barack Obama won in 2012 from blue to red. One of the keys to doing that is independents.

Places like Columbus, Ohio, think Philadelphia, the suburbs of Philadelphia and Pennsylvania or the suburbs of Denver in Colorado. Independent women are key to winning those areas. So, one of the problems that he has with women is he also has very high unfavorabilities among those independent women. So that is a significant challenge he's going to have to overcome in the coming months.

LEMON: And Hilary, he did not say that taxes were an issue, so do you think -- what's the bigger issue do you think or will both be issues?

HILARY ROSEN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I don't think those are our only two choices. I think we've got lots of choices. What is going to be his problems?


LEMON: Those are the ones in the news right now but if you have other, go ahead. Yes.

ROSEN: And you know, look, you made some news here tonight, Don. All day long, Donald Trump has been saying that this New York Times about his relationships with women was a load of bull, because this ex- girlfriend who he dated for five or six months actually really liked him, even though she came across in the story as having been, you know, the victim of some lechery on his part.

But then you had a woman who really knows him, who worked with him for many, many years in the Trump organization, who helped to build his company, and she said, well, of course, it was all true and she's horribly -- she's disappointed with him and she's with Hillary.

So, you know, I think -- I think someone who worked with him for all those years Trump's a short-term girlfriend who appreciated his generosity. I think when you look at the things that will matter to women, who Kevin is correct, who are the swing voters, you know, their economic security, their national security, those things are going to matter the most.



KAYLEIGH MCENANY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Hilary... ROSEN: So, and I think that there's a lot of -- there's a lot of food

for thought in some of the ways that Trump is suggesting he's going to deal with people on those issues.

LEMON: Let Kayleigh get in. Go ahead, Kayleigh.

MCENANY: Hilary, I agree, we should look to people in his company to see what they say about Donald Trump. And just a few hours ago on Outfront, we had the lawyer, the employment lawyer for Donald Trump's organization, who was also quoted in the article come out and say, the article was bogus, it was very negative, many people were taken out of context. So, she's worked with them. She...


ROSEN: Well, she's currently on his payroll. She's on his payroll!

MCENANY: She appeals with employment and says she simply hasn't say anything. But the New York Times though, if they really want to show this article as credible, for them to come out and say it's positive and negative when the it's negative and the title.

[22:45:08] Not only that, they put 12 highlights in the article, all of which are negative. So, if you want to highlight both the positive and the negative, perhaps you should make your highlights more than just negative highlights. It's completely bogus to say this is anything more than a hit piece.

LEMON: But if you think of it this way, which I ask the first lady, is anyone surprised that someone who has as much money as Donald Trump, who was a single man, or in the middle of a divorce, or what have you, would be trying to woo a good-looking -- that shouldn't come as a shock to anyone.

But to people who work for him, that's more of an important issue than trying to woo some model.

ROSEN: Well, look, you know, the reason why think this article is somewhat of a nothing burger, is because I think that people just assume that he is somewhat of a misogynist, that behavior is boorish, that he likes to owning the Miss Universe pageant, because he spent a lot of time being interested in younger women.

I mean, you know, look, he's been through multiple divorces. I just don't -- I don't think that this is a huge surprise to people. The idea that he is freaking out over it all day long is kind of amusing to me. I think it's really in some respects a distraction.


MCENANY: But I think it's more than that, though.

LEMON: Can I just -- we're going to come back, but, Kevin, before we go to break, do you want to say anything on this because we'll talk about more after the break? MADDEN: Well, yes. Look, I think the big differentiator is the

volume. I think Kayleigh is right. There are anecdotes where there are defenders of Donald Trump. But I think the bigger problem here is that over the period of 20 to 25 years, he has a whole host of people that have come out and criticized him for his treatment of women or things he's said.

And I think that right now, that bigger volume is what's at risk of shaping women voters' opinions about him overall. And that's something that he's going to have to deal with very directly right now over the next coming months.

LEMON: Kayleigh, quickly if you can do it.

MCENANY: I was just going to say his frustration with The New York Times, it's more than just this issue. If you look at the New York Times and the Washington Post they have made a concerted effort to attack Donald Trump.

The Washington Post has 20 investigative reporters on Donald Trump. They were asked if they had 20 on Hillary and said, no, basically as what they said.

LEMON: I don't know if they said a virtually the same amount of people working on Hillary Clinton.

MCENANY: He completely punted the question.

ROSEN: Kayleigh.

MCENANY: And if you look just last week, The Washington Post did a hit post on Donald Trump supporters, I was included in that. They did a hit piece on this latest scandal, basically, where he posed as a representative.

They had made a concerted effort to do this. Why don't they do this to Hillary Clinton supporters? Why has no one talked about how the KKK grand dragon endorsed Hillary in California? Why have no one talking about the myriad of secret service agents who have come out to the New York Post and said how disrespectful and not a nice human being she was off camera basically behind scenes.

Why are the New York Times and The Washington Post not touching that they don't want to. It is their candidate.

MADDEN: Well, welcome to presidential politics.


ROSEN: Can I just say that I think it's laughable that we actually have somebody suggesting that Hillary Clinton has been, you know, the recipient of favorable press over the last number of years. Give me a break. There's nobody who's been more scrutinized, who's been undressed and redressed more times than Hillary Clinton.

LEMON: Hilary, help me on here. I have to get to a break. We'll continue this conversation. We'll also talk about Mark Cuban who says he's going to vote for the candidate he calls the devil you know. We'll be right back.


LEMON: All right. We are back with my panel now. We're going to talk about Mark Cuban and we're also going to continue our conversation about women.

Kevin Madden is here, Hilary Rosen is here, and also Kayleigh McEnany here as well.

So, I want to start with this, Kevin. Priorities USA, a pro-Clinton releases their first two ads today. Let's watch one of them.


DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And you can see there is blood coming out of her eyes, blood out of her --wherever.

Does she have a good body? No. Does she have a fat ass? Absolutely.

You like girls that are 5'1". They come up to you know where. If Ivanka weren't my daughter, perhaps I'd be dating her.

I view as a person who's flat-chested is very hard to be a 10. And you can tell them to go and (muted) themselves.

Does Donald Trump really speak for you? Priorities USA action is responsible for the content of this advertising.


LEMON: So, Kevin, I mean, it's interesting to watch. He says a counterpuncher might -- I wonder if you think he's going to hit back and go after Bill Clinton again because of that?

MADDEN: Well, look, I think that's one of the big challenges that Hillary Clinton is going to face. I think one of the things that the Clinton campaign is going to want to do is align themselves with women voters on the issues and try to draw contrasts where they think maybe Donald Trump has been too extreme or has turned off a lot of women voters.

But one of the challenges that they're going to continue to face is Donald Trump is so unpredictable. As soon as Hillary Clinton tries to make this an issue-based campaign, he's going to make it a stylistic campaign.

And one of the things he's been -- he has done tremendously well in the primary, much to the vain of his opponents, was be able to shift the entire story line, so that we're talking about insults. Or we're, you know, we're going over what the latest tweet of the day was.

And when that happens, Donald Trump has the ability to dominate the conversation and have that conversation and that debate on his terms. That will be one of the key advantages that he has running against Hillary Clinton.

LEMON: Hilary...

MADDEN: And also, with that ability to cancel out some of the attacks on him, by elevating some of Hillary Clinton's past transgressions, when she was part of the team that was prosecuted some of Bill Clinton's accusers.

LEMON: I'm short on time. I want to get Hilary in. Hilary, what do you think of that?

ROSEN: You know, I think it's true that when you go and trade -- try and trade insults for insults, he's going to win, just because he's a, you know, a master insulter.

I think, you know, that the -- you know, this ad is really interesting. I'm sure it's been focused group and people love it. And so, they decided to run it.

But I actually believe with independent voters and particularly independent women, you know, the idea that Trump is not for the little guy, when it comes to economic security. You know, and that has to be so much of Hillary Clinton's argument.

[22:54:59] That, you know, he says that he cares about student debt, but yet, you know, he had a scam at Trump University for years, where he, you know, took people's money. He says he cares about workers, but yet, when he bankrupt companies, it's the construction guys who don't get paid.


LEMON: I want to get...

ROSEN: Those are the issues that really have to end up resonating with people.

LEMON: I want Kayleigh to get in here. Kayleigh, Mark Cuban was on today and he said, it's the devil you know. And he thinks that, to her point, her policies, Hillary Clinton's policies are better and there's more to know about her than him.

MCENANY: Yes, I think that his predictions, I saw his clips a little earlier, were very cryptic. He doesn't know where Donald Trump stands. I firmly know where he stands. I think most Americans know where he stands on trade. That he is free market, that he is for lower taxes.

But on the edges of those policies, we have to have nuance and we have to have the ability to negotiate, and Hillary Clinton doesn't have that. She'll change the second 50 percent of America becomes for one side of the policy, she'll completely change her viewpoint.

Donald Trump's willing to budge on the edges, he's not going to budge on principle like Hillary Clinton has repeatedly time and time again.

LEMON: Kayleigh, Hilary, and Kevin, thank you. I appreciate it. MADDEN: Great to be with you.

MCENANY: Thanks.

ROSEN: Take care.

LEMON: We'll be right back.


LEMON: That is it for us tonight. Make sure you stay with CNN for all-day coverage of the Kentucky and Oregon primaries. That's tomorrow. And then we're going to be here at a very special time tomorrow with more. Tomorrow at midnight. That will be fun.

[22:59:59] Get your sleep now and stay up and join us. "AC360" starts right now.