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Donald Trump Campaign Reaching Out to Muslim Voters; Search Intensifies for Black Boxes from EgyptAir Flight 804; Trump Claims He's Worth More than $10 Billion; California's Big Democratic Primary; Will Sanders Supporters Back Clinton? Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired May 23, 2016 - 23:00   ET



DON LEMON, CNN HOST: You've heard what Donald Trump says about Muslims but wait till you hear why some support him.

This is CNN TONIGHT, I'm Don Lemon.

The conventional wisdom is that Trump and Muslims could never agree on the wake of his call for a ban of Muslims entering the U.S. Well, as we have seen this time and time again in this election, the conventional wisdom, say it with me, is wrong. The campaign is reportedly reaching out to Muslim voters and in just a moment you are going to meet the man behind the group Muslims for Trump.

Meanwhile on Cairo, the sun is about to come up as the search intensifies for the fuselage and black boxes from EgyptAir Flight 804. But with so little to go on, officials are at odds over what happened in the plane's final moments and the question remains, was this terrorism or a tragic accident? We'll discuss all of that this hour.

But let's begin with Muslim voter for and against Donald Trump. Joining me now is Sajid Tarar. He is the founder of the group Muslims for Trump and Ahmed Shihab -- I had you on like 80 times -- as a professor at Columbia University in the correspondent for Vice on HBO. Good to have you both on gentlemen. Thank you for coming on. Sajid, you first, why do you support Donald Trump?

SAJID TARAR, MUSLIMS FOR TRUMP FOUNDER: For some reason, first of all, let me say thank you for having me on your show. There are several reasons first of all that radical Islam is I believe is not only a threat to western civilization, it's a threat to Islam itself. And the first time, the first candidate who has brought it on the table, looked it eye to eye and he has said America first, safety of America. We are Americans. We are American Muslims and it's very important for us as well and he has...

LEMON: How are your Muslim friends reacting to this?

TARAR: In the beginning it was hard but now frankly speaking, they are joining, they are coming, they are listening to his message and to think he is the only one who can save America or Americans in the future. And not only this, he has plans to understand Islam. He has said -- several times he has said that I wanted to understand

why the Muslims hate us? What are the grassroots situations, and like I told you, education opportunity and a lot of other things. We have, right now -- currently we don't have any foreign policy. He is looking forward to change, bring the change from different angles to not only geographically (ph) on a foreign policy and Islam.

LEMON: All right, go ahead Ahmed.

AHMED SHIHAB, HBO VICE SHOW CORRESPONDENT: I was just going to say because he's so experienced when it comes to foreign policy with all the years he spent, you know, in political office. You talk about Trump saving America and you know, my question is saving America from what? From Muslims? Muslims are agreeing that Trump is going to save America fro Muslims?

The message is so problematic and you know, I'm quite surprised not to see what's actually happening in terms of certain Muslims supporting Trump, but you know, Trump is a man of many kind of persuasions, Don. You know, he is in many ways is uniphobic, a race bating bigot, but he's also a very talented performer, a provocateur, you know. He's managed to manipulate the messaging in this campaign.

Here we are talking about his proposal to ban Muslims which he's shied away from. You know, that's not even what matters. What matters is not whether or not he implements this policy or some of the crazy things he's said. What matters is that he's managed to surprise a lot of people in political and media circles and actually has clinched the nomination and he's done it by, you know, being an anti-Muslim fascist -- by race bating, by suggesting that all Muslims should wear ID cards.

I mean, if you look at this in a historical context, and I don't know what to do but laugh, you know, quite frankly. He reminds you a lot of another man who is very obsessed and had a very weird haircut on his face except not on his head, on his moustache.

LEMON: Maybe that you mean?

SHIHAB: Hitler.

LEMON: Yeah. Okay, so listen. I want you guys to listen to this because CNN had a special report on Jihad violence night (ph). Fareed Zakaria was the anchor of it and it's called "Why They Hate Us" and the report we heard from Muslim reformer Irshad Manji -- you know her. She said this about Islamist attacks, listen.


IRSHAD MANJI, MUSLIM REFORMER: Next time a bombing or beheading occurs and God knows it will, the first thing you will hear from the mouth of a so-called moderate Muslim is no, no, no please don't misunderstand, Islam has nothing to do with this. That's simply not true because most of the people doing these bombings and beheadings say that they are doing it in the name of Allah. And they actually site verses from the Quran. (END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, what do say to that? Do moderate Muslims need to acknowledge their connection?

[23:05:00] SHIHAB: Yeah, I mean, moderate modern Muslims are acknowledging the connection, but I mean, I think the problem really is far beyond Donald Trump. I mean he -- you know, this has all preceded Donald Trump. People are surprised that he's managed to win, you know, by breaking all the rules and by being a bigot and saying things they're not only are not politically correct but it's really damaging to our social fabric.

And the reason he's been able to do this is because there's been over a decade since 9/11 where this, you know, fear mongering and it kind of, you know, racism has permeated into, you know, entertainment, into news, into political circles, and it's not surprising that his message is sadly resonating with Americans. I'm just surprised that it's resonating with Muslims.

LEMON: Yeah, I want to get Sajid in there. What do you make of what Irshad said?

TARAR: If you personally ask me I'd disagree with most of those (inaudible). It's a libera agenda. It's the media, the way they have been twisting and since, to be honest with you, I have seen the war against Donald Trump from different angles. People have been -- when he meant the banning of Muslims, there was an issue of immigration going on. The people were coming here from Syria and instead of staying there and fighting for their own freedom and rights, or going to Turkey or Kuwait or Saudi Arabia, they wanted to come here and we don't have any system to vet them, people are coming on the...

SHIHAB: But that's not a true. We do have a system to vet them. I mean, that's just not true fact. There's a very, very laborious system that requires multiple agencies in the government in order to, you know, have refugees file asylum request. I don't know what that has to do with banning all Muslims?

TARAR: Okay, the question is -- okay, the question is this, why does Syrians wanted to come here to begin with? Why don't they go to Turkey and some other Muslim countries and they practice their religion freely there. Why do they want to come here so far away, that's another question? And then another thing is this, right now we have a vivid program from the Europe, they are coming here and they cannot control them (inaudible) plus, this is written on the wall that radical Islam is a threat to western civilization.

Most of the countries look at them, weary (ph) of the situation. We don't want to see this country another Middle East or another France or Belgium. We have to take precautions and the person who has brought it on the table, we are calling him bigot and we ask him -- I think we need to appreciate his looking -- he has brought that subject on the table to discuss and take precautions. That's America first...

LEMON: Aren't you a Muslim immigrant to this country? How can you say that you can come in and no one else can?

TARAR: No, the thing is I came here legally and he's not against the legal immigrants.

SHIHAB: We're not talking about refugees. I'm sorry I have to interject. He's talking about Muslim immigrants who could come here legally.

LEMON: He said a temporary ban on all Muslims.

TARAR: No, the thing -- yes, until we find out why they are coming here, whether it's their objective and this is a temporary situation, since we have seen in California (ph).

LEMON: But my question is what if there had been a ban -- what if there had been a ban on you? You may not have been able to come to this country and may not have been able to take advantage of the American educational system or the American way of life. What if there had been a ban when you tried to come to the country?

TARAR: I came here legally and second thing is this, if going through the screening and going through the vetting system that can make a satisfaction, I don't have any problem with it. And why they wanted to just use other channels? So, we don't want to see this country going on a chaos like Belgium and France and you know, the situation in radicalizing (ph) and current administration hardly use the name radicalize or say that it identify this issue. It's an on ongoing issue. We have to solve it otherwise we will be feeling guilty...

LEMON: Hang on, listen. It's not just Donald Trump because you're saying that it's Donald Trump. Forty three percent of Americans support a temporary Muslim ban, that's a substantial number. Democrats are against it. Republicans are for it, that's no big surprise, but with independents it's almost even 49 percent oppose the ban, 45 percent support it. So, he's not alone in his opinion about Muslims in, you know, the country

SHIHAB: And Trump's success really reveals to Muslims and to all Americans but particularly young Muslims, you know, who were born here, who are raised here. A very disturbing truth that millions of other Americans actually agree with him. He's just managed to tap into this, you know, this racism and this fear and the suspicion of all things that are Muslim, which is then perpetuated as I've told you many times, you know, on this program for decades.

And what's really troubling, Don, it's not just this notion of the ban. I mean, he said to Anderson Cooper on this very network. I think -- let me get it just verbatim for you because I wrote it down because, you know, we are all focused on this one thing hen said. He said, "It's quite simple. I think Islam hates us."

We have a presidential candidate who is actually now the Republican nominee for all extensive purposes, he is saying I think Islam hates us to Anderson Cooper. Then he goes on to talk about -- I mean that's not only equating 1.6 billion people with terrorism. That's framing Islam as directly incompatible with the West and I would just ask your guest and you caution (ph) me, you're free to support who you want...

LEMON: Who is a Muslim.

[23:10:00] SHAHIB: ...who is a Muslim, I would just ask you at what cost -- maybe you like him because of his economic policies, maybe you like him because of immigration, maybe you like him because he wants to lower taxes for private business owners, but at what cost -- not just the human cost, but to the very social fabric of America which has afforded you as a Muslim immigrant the life you have?

TARAR: You know, my answer to that -- I'm an American. I have kids, those are Americans and safety -- I have told you the safety of America is my number priority at the same time. And coming up to the racial issues and things, and life there is saying, every Muslim is not terrorist, but ever terrorist is Muslim.

SHAHIB: Why do you think Islam hates us as your candidate claims?

TARAR: Yeah, let me tell you, the thing is, what is going on? Most of Islamic countries ruled by the kings, they have no educational system, they have no opportunities. Even Saudi Arabia has a huge unemployed population. The youth is desperate, then they are mislead by the imams and madrasa. And everybody knows, I'm would say the thing with this educational opportunity...

SHAHIB: So you think Muslims...

LEMON: Let me ask you this question, do you think Muslims -- do you think Islam hates America?

TARA: Islam, I would say is a religion, to be honest with you. How it is possible when the name of religion Islam meaning peace and can hate this...

SHAHIB: But that's what your candidate said -- that's what the candidate you support said on CNN to Anderson Cooper, and he said it in many other forms -- and it speaks that is irresponsible.

LEMON: Let him go ahead.

SHAHIB: Go ahead, okay.

TARAR: You know, the thing is this, he has said several times that he has Muslim friends and he is willing to understand...

SHAHIB: Yeah, you know what, I have lots of friends. I have Mexican friends, I have Japanese friends but I would never suggest that any of those people hate us shouldn't be allowed into this country especially without a plan. It doesn't matter whether he actually, Don as I've said to you, implements this policy. He's done enough damage...

TARAR: But that sickens them.

SHAHIB: I think is irreparable because we have now a conversation about whether or not we should ban all Muslims as if that would even be a constructive policy position. You have heard all kinds of leaders, not just from the GOP, you've had Homeland Security leaders, you've had all sorts of foreign policy leaders including other world leaders say that that just ludicrous.

LEMON: I've got to wrap it up. Go ahead Sajid, I'll give you the last word.

TARAR: You know, were just talking about the political correctness, that people don't like it, then the leaders don't like it, but the thing is we have to take dramatic steps for the safety of America and you know we have to -- and that's the beauty of Donald Trump, he's not just for the political correctness. He wanted to resolve the issues, most of the things he brought up during the debates. Everybody learns and one follows up. Look at Hillary Clinton and -- I'm sorry.

LEMON: Sajid, thank you. And thank you Ahmed. Interesting conversation, to be continued. I really appreciate both of you coming on. When we come right back, Hillary Clinton says Donald Trump is afraid to release his tax returns. Is he as rich as he says he is and will that be his Achilles heel?


LEMON: Donald Trump tells us he is not worth $10 billion, but he's worth more than $10 billion. But what if he's not as rich as he says? Here to discuss now Washington Examiner columnist Kristen Soltis Anderson, Matt Lewis senior contributor to the Daily Caller, Maria Cardona is Super Delegate committed to Hillary Clinton and New York City Councilman Joseph Borelli, the co-chair of Donald Trump's New York campaign.

So to you first, Donald Trump is tweeting tonight about veterans and about money raised at an event in Iowa where he didn't attend a Fox News debate. Here is what he tweets right here. He says that he raised $5 million plus $1 million of his own money" but Corey Lewandowski told CNN on Friday that less than $6 million was raise. What's the truth here?

JOSEPH BORELLI, DONALD TRUMP NEW YORK CAMPAIGN CO-CHAIR: I don't know the exact number but let's not loose sight of the fact that this is a person who put up $1 million of his own money to support veterans in our community and raised whether it be four, whether it be three, whether it's even $2 million, it doesn't matter. The focus should be...

LEMON: Well, what's the truth?

BORELLI: It doesn't matter. The focus should be on

LEMON: Of course the truth...

BORELLI: Look, again...

LEMON: Of course it matters.

(Crosstalk) BORELLI: Whether he raised $5 million or $6 million for veterans, the point is he's still out there supporting our veterans, important people in our community.

LEMON: No one is saying he's not supporting veterans.

BORELLI: So why is it bad?

LEMON: I didn't say it was bad, but the question was what is the truth? All we want is the truth. Is it $6 million? Is it $2 million? Is it $1 million? It doesn't matter -- it doesn't mean you're for or against Trump, we just want to truth.

BORELLI: I'll go on what he just tweeted about 20 minutes ago as you pointed out.

LEMON: And you should never say the truth doesn't matter.

BORELLI: The truth matters, but again, I think you're losing sight of the fact that this is a person who, on his own, you know, wallet has put up his own money to support veterans. We shouldn't be sitting there and berating him for this. We should be (inaudible) people...

LEMON: No one's berating him. No one's said anything bad. We just want what is true.

BORELLI: Well, but you said, it seems like we're trying to frame him in a way that doesn't paint him in the best light because he raise $5 million not six.

LEMON: He tweeted about it. He's tweeting about how much he raised. All we're asking is what is the truth. I mean Matt, does the truth not matter in this election cycle as we have said so many times?

MATT LEWIS, "THE DAILY CALLER" SENIOR CONTRIBUTOR: No, it does not matter and what we are trying to do right now is nail Jell-o to a wall. And that is why Donald Trump always escapes. What we're doing now is playing the old politics, the politics where logic matters, where honor matters, where details and facts matter. Those things don't matter at least not when Donald Trump is the candidate. The rules are changing.

I think the only way that Hillary Clinton can do this is to mock Donald Trump. You can't do it with logic or facts. I think that she has to find a way to do what only so far Barack Obama has been able to do, is to point out the absurdity and what we are witnessing right now where people who can't answer questions and don't deal in facts. It's not about proving somebody is wrong, it's about showing the absurdity of it.

LEMON: So Hillary Clinton is on "Meet the Press" yesterday and questioned both Trump's success and his wealth. Let's listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's nothing about his background that is praise worthy?

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDTE: We'll find out because we have to get below the hype. We have to find what the reality is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you don't feel like you know that?

CLINTON: I don't think the country knows it.


CLINTON: I think that we are beginning to find out, but I don't think we know enough and that's why he should release his tax returns to prove that he actually has the level of success he claims to have.


[23:20:00] LEMON: What she's saying is that below all the hype, Joseph again, what is the truth behind and that's what she's getting at. Do you agree with her?

BORELLI: And I think you can see what the truth is by Donald Trump's 102 or 101 page -- I don't what number of that pages -- but 101 and 102 page financial disclosure that he filed with the federal government as part of the requirements for running for office. If you want any questions answered by his wealth, you can look to that and find out the answer.

LEMON: Okay. Maria, same question to you.

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, the truth matters, and while I agree with Matt that this is somebody who has completed changed the rules, he's going to, I think encounter something a little bit different because this is a different electorate that he's facing during the general election. Now, I agree that Hillary needs to sort of underscore the truth in a different manner, and I think she's doing that and clearly she's getting under his skin as we can see by the late night tweets that he can't stand.

And she does need to question a couple of things, whether he is worth as much as he is and you know that that is something that absolutely gets to the heart of his ego and he can't stand it. But number two, does he pay anything in taxes? The two tax returns that we have seen in the late 70s show he paid zero in taxes. I think that would be a very big deal for the American people to find out that somebody who says he's worth $10 billion is actually free loading on the American people.

So, this issue of the tax returns is going to be something that Democrats are going to make him wear like the suits that are made in -- by child labor in China.

LEMON: But Kristen, you say it is too late to make that Trump's not as rich as he says he is argument, why is that?

KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, "WASHINGTON EXAMINER" COLUMNIST: It might be a little bit too late in part because I think, you know, again the rules of the game have changed and this has been such a core piece of Trump's plan for so long. I mean, he has been in the headlines for decades. His name is on all kinds of buildings and he's just -- he is synonymous. You go into any small diner in America and you say name me three people of who you think of is rich, Donald Trump is going to be one of those names.

It may all be a mirage. It may be an illusion but it is the brand that he's created. And so, I feel like at this point, it's just very hard to erode 30 some years worth of brand dealing (ph). I think if they're able to do, I think if Democrats can actually prove that Donald Trump is not the winner he says he is, that he's not as rich as he says he is, it would be devastating. But I think it's going to be a very hard case for him to make, tax returns or no, because he's got 30 some years of brand equity and not one issue.

And that's part of why people would say, I may not like him but he makes good deal. I may not like him, but he's a winner and that's why he's able to be competitive on the road.

CARDINA: But you know what.

LEMON: Hang on Maria, but what about the statement he made back in 2011 listen to this?


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have a great company. I've done a great job, which if I run you'll see what a great job because I have to -- full disclosure from finances.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Including tax returns?

TRUMP: We'll look at that. Maybe I'm going to do the tax returns when Obama does his birth certificate.


LEMON: Maria?

CARDONA: You know, Kristen is right, that he does have a brand, so I think if Democrats can then make the connection. Look, we all know he's rich, and maybe it doesn't matter if its $1 billion or $10 billion, really, that's not even a number that any of us can really understand, right. He's rich, but then what if the American people find out like they did in '78 and '79 that he pays absolutely zero in taxes when you have teachers and firefighters and single moms that are paying taxes out of their measly income. I think this is something that will matter.


LEMON: But would actually do it if because he said if the president release his birth certificate and the president did release his own birth certificate. So, should Donald Trump release his taxes?

LEWIS: Well, look, Donald Trump is guilty of rank (ph) hypocrisy. The fact, you know, (inaudible). Donald Trump, yeah, so point well made, but here's the problem Maria. That trump will just say of course I didn't pay any taxes, you know, I have smart people who figured out how, you know, but that's because the system is rigged and that's why you need to elect me president so that other people can't rig the system. It doesn't matter. I think everyone is still thinking about the way

CARDONA: You see, I disagree.

LEWIS: ...this is the way politics used to be played. It doesn't work -- it's either doesn't work anymore or it doesn't work for Trump.

LEMON: All right, stand by everyone. Hold on. We'll be right back and we'll continue the conversation. Don't go anywhere.


LEMON: California's primary just days away. For the Democrats, this is a big one. Back now is Kristen Soltis Anderson, Matt Lewis, Maria Cardona and Joseph Borelli on a Monday evening. Joseph, you say there are two more bad weeks for Hillary Clinton, why do you say that?

BORELLI: Look, Bernie Sanders isn't going away anytime soon and if Hillary Clinton doesn't win the nomination with the required number of delegates being pledged delegates, I think it might actually be longer than two rough weeks ahead to Hillary Clinton because he's not going to go anywhere. He's going to continue to cause her this inconvenience up until the convention if not, straight through. We see her behind in the polls this week. We see her trending down and this is going to continue over the next two weeks if not beyond.

LEMON: Well Bernie Sanders, Kristen, says he's not going anywhere until the last vote is counted for the primaries at least until the convention. If Secretary Clinton now wins California do you think Sanders will bow out then?

ANDERSON: It seems to me he's ready for a fight and his goal I think at this point is to go all the way to the convention, if not, to actually be the nominee, but to wield a lot of influence over things like the platform (ph), to wield a lot of influence over the agenda of the Democrats, adopting the message that they've carried forward through November. So, if I'm Bernie Sanders, I don't go down without a fight. I don't simply pack up my toys and go home. I think Bernie Sanders, he's got a lot of momentum -- he has the case at this point to make it he's the more electable of the two in this race. So, it's hard for me to see a reason why he just decides, well, you know what, it's time to unify, I'll step down.

LEMON: Go ahead Maria.

[23:30:00] CARDONA: Well, at some point I think he's going to have to come to that conclusion unless he wants to see Donald Trump in the White House, but I take him at his word. I take Jeff Weaver at his word, his campaign manager, who says that, you know, if Hillary Clinton becomes the nominee Bernie Sanders will come out and endorse her and she will be the nominee. There is no way that she won't be the nominee. The question is how

long will it take for him to do that. And I agree, this right now is hurting Hillary Clinton that's why see her poll numbers are not as robust as they could be, had the Democratic Party united at this point. But I am fully confident the way that it happened in 2008 and you have percentages of Bernie Sanders -- more percentages of Bernie Sanders supporters who say that they will support Hillary Clinton than what you had Hillary Clinton supporters say that they would support Barack Obama in 2008, and that turned out to be a fantastic election for the Democratic Party. We were unified and this is exactly what I believe is going to happen this time around.

LEMON: Bernie Sanders does poll better than Hillary Clinton up against Donald Trump.

LEWIS: Yeah he does although...

CARDONA: Those polls mean nothing right now, you guys know that, come on.

LEWIS: Of course they don't.

LEMON: Of course they don't.

CARDONA: Ask President Romney, ask President McCain if those polls mean anything.

LEWIS: They mean something but not that much and Hillary yesterday, you know, said "Well, but Bernie hasn't had any attack ads." He's had some but not much. Bernie has basically been unscathed and a lot of people like him but how would he hold up during, sort of a withering general election campaign, maybe not as well as he has so far.

CARDONA: That's exactly right.

LEMON: So, earlier today and -- go ahead Kristen.

ANDERSON: I'll say this in Hillary Clinton's defense, when you look at the polls of Democratic voters, the reason why Bernie Sanders does so well isn't because Democratic voters really dislike Hillary Clinton, it's because they really like Bernie Sanders. And so I think the prospects for unity are there. I think there are certainly a handful of vocal (ph) Bernie Sanders supporters who say they're never Hillary, they're making a big fuss, but I do think that we're likely to see the Democratic Party unify. I think once that happens, this general election polls will become a little...

LEMON: The councilman says two more weeks of bad news for Hillary Clinton, but my question is this, earlier today on CNN David Gergen said that having huge crowds at a movement behind him has to gone to Sanders head. Maria, what do you think of that? Do you agree?

CARDONA: You know, I think there is something to that. It has got to be intoxicating to go up on a stage and see tens of thousands of people screaming your name and that's not going to be something that you're easily give up if you've never really had that in your life so, I understand that. I get it.

But I also think that when it comes down to it, Bernie Sanders really does believe in this movement as do his supporters and when they have a choice to make between having Donald Trump in the White House where you will have completely your progressive values absolutely 150 percent eviscerated by this man who will be nothing but a free loader- in-chief to America's working class and middle class families versus Hillary Clinton who has so much more in common with...

LEMON: Free loader-in -chief? What does that mean? What does that mean? What does that mean Maria? What is a free loader-in chief?

LEWIS: In some ways Trump and Sanders...

CARDONA: I'll tell you -- I'll tell you -- I'll tell you. So, today for example, we saw and we've actually heard this before that Donald Trump pocketed money from the 9/11 fund that was supposed to go to help small businesses revitalize after the tragedy of 9/11. We also have seen him various times now having a quote that said he was giddy about the ongoing or the upcoming housing crisis in 2007 because he could make money off of it.

BORELLI: By the way, Hillary Clinton supported the fund (inaudible) so just be careful what you say.

CARDONA: And by the way, he paid zero -- he paid zero in taxes in '78 and '79 and probably doesn't pay any taxes now which is why he doesn't want us to see his tax returns. That is free loading. Free loader-in- chief is what this guy is running for.

LEMON: Joseph first and then Matt. Go ahead Joseph.

BORELLI: I don't even know what a free loader means. Let's paint a picture.

CARDONA: Look it up.


BORELLI: Let's make a metaphor for our viewers. Right now, the Republican Party is coming together like a battleship and it's training their sights on the Democrats and as you can see, the Democrats are in row boats and they can't even figure out how to row in the same direction. So, I hope this continues. I'm enjoying the show and I look forward to the next two weeks.

LEMON: Matt?

LEWIS: It's amazing that Donald Trump wrapped up his primary weeks or months before Hillary could.

LEMON: We thought it would be the opposite.

LEWIS: That and in of itself is a huge deal and like I said before, if most Americans right now are unhappy with the direction of the country, Hillary Clinton represents the establishment, the status quo. Donald Trump represents a change, you know, a change agent and a disrupter. That alone makes this race very competitive.

CARDONA: But Matt...

LEMON: Kristen, last word. I had to let Kristen get in. Last word to you.

ANDERSON: Yeah, everybody needs to buckle up because in an election where people dislike both candidates so much, this is going to be a really volatile campaign. Imagine what these general election debates might look like between either Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders. This is going to be one for the history books. I think right now, any of the polls you're looking at, they're instructive about how people think about the candidates now, but they're predictive of what November is...

[23:35:] LEMON: I don't know if it makes my job harder or easier when I have to sit here and go you next, you next. Stop. She always wants the last word.

CARDONA: The kind of pain (ph) that Donald Trump is representing is not something that a general electorate is going to go for.

LEMON: Thank you Maria.

CARDONA: Thank you Don.

LEMON: Maria likes to get the last word, but she stayed up late so we will allow her. Thank you. I appreciate it.

LEMON: When we come right back, the latest on the investigation of EgyptAir Flight 804, why some investigators believe it may not be terrorism after all.


[23:40:00] LEMON: The search intensifying for the fuselage and the black box from EgyptAir Flight 804. But officials are at odds over what they found and haven't found so far. Let's discuss. David Soucie is here, CNN safety analyst and author of "Malaysia Airlines Flight 370," Mary Schiavo a former inspector general of the Department of Transportation, now an attorney for victims of transportation accidents, Michael Weiss, the co-author of "ISIS, Inside the Army of Terror" and oceanographer David Gallo. I watched all of you this weekend, all weekend long. Great information this weekend.

Mary, let's talk about the new stuff. The officials are at odds now about this evening, about what happened during the final moments of EgyptAir flight 804. Egyptian officials say the plane did not swerve or loose altitude before it disappeared from radar. Greece's defense minister stands by the report that the plane swerved dramatically and fell to 10,000 feet. What's going on here? Why these discrepancies?

MARY SCHIAVO, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION FORMER INSPECTOR GENERAL: Well, I think several was talked about over the weekend and that there's earlier reports cannot often be wrong or conflicting because it's hard to tell what you're seeing on those radar tracings and if you're actually reading them correctly.

So, I think a lot of the re-thinking of what was said early is based on the fact that really -- the only hard data we have is the ACARS messages, the messages that the plane send back to the maintenance phase to help it get repaired when it gets home, but that's really the only hard data we have right now. Plus, the fact that it missed it's reporting to report over with the air traffic control change. So, that's probably causing a lot of people to rethink the initial thoughts of terrorism.

LEMON: We also have this, David, we're hearing this chilling new audio which is from the plane's pilot making one of his last calls.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you so much, good day. Good night.


LEMON: Pretty routine. I mean the audio appears to be routine. No indication of any problem at all. It's standard. It doesn't bring -- does this bring any clues or anything, David?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Not that audio. I mean its routine. It's what would have been said there, there's nothing you could glean (ph) out of it from what I hear.

LEMON: And Saturday, French Aviation officials confirmed that the flight data indicated smoke alerts occurred near the cockpit minutes before the crash. Would this indicate that a bomb might not have been the cause of this of this crash, Mary?

SCHIAVO: Well, it certainly could and a bunch of us hit the books over the weekend and there have been similar situations or warnings with other Airbus aircraft and of course by getting some ACARS messages, you've got the warnings from the windows on the right hand side in the cockpit, the co-pilot seat we often call it, and we had those warnings first before other warnings came on the ACARS message, and what you didn't see was a warning that there had been a depressurization. The cabin had lost its pressurization which one would expect if a bomb had blown a hole in the side of the plane.

LEMON: So, what would be the cause of smoke alert and how common is that?

SCHIAVO: Well, it's pretty common if you look at the Australian, ATSB -- the Australian Transport Safety Board, which is like our NTSB -- had actually investigated this and they had found 19 instances on various Airbus planes where that right window assembly had shorted out, had caused fires, had difficulty with the wiring, the wiring harness and the insulation in the window.

And curiously, it often happened at 27 or excuse me, 37 to 39,000 feet. It happened at cruising altitude often so, a short in the wiring, a problem with the wiring, insulation, overheating, problems in the flight controller modules, or in the electronics bay. You have a lot of different mechanical things that could cause it.

LEMON: Okay. Let's get to my guest in the studio now, David Gallo. First, although some of the items had been found -- personal belongings, aircraft chairs, even body parts -- the bulk of the plane has not been located yet. How far could this wreckage be from these items that they have foiund?

DAVID GALLO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think the idea that they found it so quickly after the tragedy means that it's got to be somewhere in that vicinity. Objects don't float that fast on the water surface so, already they've got a big jump ahead of things like MH370 or even Air France 447. So, somewhere in that area they need to draw a circle, a bulls eye and get in there and start listening and looking to see if they can find the body of that wreckage.

LEMON: It's 5,300 square miles that the area in the Mediterranean that they're searching, I mean, how difficult is that?

GALLO: That's big. That's a big area. They really are going to be able to hold (ph) that down a bit but that's about what we looked at with Air France 447, something like that. You're talking about months of survey when you're getting at...

LEMON: So, how much time are you thinking now when you have that?

GALLO: You would think you can get it done to 10 -- circle of 10-mile radius circle that you'll not be able to in a month.

LEMON: Michael let's talk about this because if, you know, now they're saying it's possibly mechanical and then we were saying before, meaning officials are saying it looked like terrorism, is there any chatter about this? No one is taking responsibility.

[23:45:00] MICHAEL WEISS, NEW YORK TIMES BEST-SELLING AUTHOR: No, it's bizarre, and you know Isis, there was this long awaited audio communicated they release at the weekend, Abu Muhammad al Adnani, the spokesman. Everyone thought this was going to be probably a message from Bagddadi himself saying yeah, we did this one and not a word. Mostly just pro forma (ph) denunciation (ph) of the United States, President Obama, not much chatter, which is -- look, there have been cases in the past where a terrorist operations carried out and sometimes days, weeks even months go by before, say, Al Qaeda takes credit for it.

But in this particular circumstance -- I mean look, you've got Isis looking to strike at Western and regional targets. An operation as sensitive as this, which would have required them to have an inside man, a technician on the ground in Charles de Gaulle, smuggling a bomb into the sensitive part, the nerve center of the plane which cannot be accessed from the cockpit. This is something Isis should have known about in advance and they would have been right out of the gate to claim credit for it. Now, that's not to rule out.

It could be some -- not that I wouldn't call it a lone wolf in this case, but it could be guys who are really trying to stick it to the Egyptian regime. It's not uncommon particularly in Egypt's government and security and military structures the jihadi sympathizers to basically flip and working outside.

LEMON: Is it possible though that when you say that this guy is reading my mind, that it's a, as you said it a lone wolf who may have Paris in the plane and then so far, but haven't found them, found his apartment or they haven't found the clues yet?

WEISS: Well look, I mean, and I defer here to the avionics specialists on the panel, if it was a lone wolf, a passenger who smuggled a bomb on board, nothing as far as I can tell...

LEMON: Is pointing to that.

WEISS: pointing to that because, you know, it would have blown a hole through the fuselage, there would have been cabin depressurization, and again the fire, you know, if there seem to be, the fire started in a part of the plane that you could not access from being inside, you know, the cabin or inside the passenger area.

LEMON: So Isis wouldn't take responsibility for it just to get people afraid even if they didn't do it.

WEISS: They have done in the past. I mean, they often claim credit to things they don't do. They used to claim credit for taking Serena (ph) in Syria, which actually was taken by other rebel groups, but again, in this case -- look, they're leaning very heavily on this foreign operation way. The (inaudible), the CIA of Isis, which is planning terror attacks throughout Europe, mostly in Europe I should say. Why the radio silence on this for so long? It's now what, day three, day four, and not a peep. And also the fellow travelers and the fan boys of Isis noo0n Twitter. Not a word from them.

LEMON: More to talk about. Stay with me everyone. When we come right back, the chilling message written on the plane two years ago.


LEMON: Back with me now David Soucie, Mary Schiavo, Michael Weiss and David Gallo. You have been speaking to your sources regarding if this is terrorism and whether someone is going to take responsibility, were you finding anything?

WEISS: Well, I have a source, he's defector from Isis' security service. I profiled him in the Daily Beast in November. This is a guy who told me he personally trained two French woman fighters who went back to France within weeks of -- weeks before I should say the Paris attacks. And he has informants inside the organization and I said was this Isis? And he said I have no idea. So, if it was them, they're playing this one very close to the chest and there are people on the ground in Aleppo working for their foreign intel service we don't know about it.

LEMON: Is that uncommon?

WEISS: Again, this is an evolving organization, right, the people who are running this side of the operations are, had to be Europeans and they want better signals, intelligence or I should say, better communication of security.

LEMON: One more question, we're talking about this "New York Times" they reported this weekend with this chilling message, "We will bring this plane down" was written on the underside of this plane two years ago by aviation workers in Cairo. What do you make of this?

WEISS: Again, you know, in Egypt it is not uncommon for people who are working for a government or you know, palace state institutions like an international airport to be sympathetic with the cause (ph) of international jihadist. I mean there've been cases of soldiers from the Egyptian military who essentially flipped to the other side and start blowing things up. So, in that part of the world, unfortunately, it's not all that out of sorts.

Now, if you had told me, you know, and Air France plane had that written on it, I'd be much more worried and that plane would be in line with what I'm hearing about, you know, these attempts to infiltrate European transport hubs an international airports.

LEMON: David Soucie, we've been talking a lot about terrorist and Mary talked about it in the beginning and remember, it seemed to be the leading theory at first is that very little physical evidence, as Michael pointed out at this point and this is all of our guest have pointed out at this point. Is any theory still possible right now or could it have been a mechanical failure?

SOUCIE: You know Don, we talked for years, the last couple of years since MH370 about, gee, wouldn't it be fantastic if we had live streaming data from the aircraft. Well, in this case we finally do. We have the aircraft communications loading and reporting system telling us exactly what happened. We have the first thing that happened was the anti-ice system failed on the windshield, which we have a history of, and then Mary went through that history as well.

The second thing that happened was another window that failed that overheated. The next thing that happened was some smoke in the lavatory. Then we had another window failed and we had smoke in the avionics bay and then other things started to fail from that point forward, to me it's simply laid out for us here. The only evidence we have points to a mechanical failure, as Michael pointed out, if there was a bomb involved here it would have had to be smuggled not only through the airport -- not only into the airplane but into the cockpit.

So, if I was going to take an airplane down, I wouldn't select the 3- inch thick windshield in the front of the airplane to do it.

LEMON: Let's say, when you said, we have that (inaudible) so, it's a mystery at this point and here we are talking about it, you know, after 370 that we discussed so much. When you said, you know, about streaming data, right? We were talking about that during the break. There are so many things that we can do, that can be done when it comes to aviation that aren't being done, David Gallo.

GALLO: Yeah, when you think about the number of people that flying and people that are at risk, that we need to find out what happened to this plane crash for their benefit no only -- and the humanitarian effort as well. And the thing is that the answers are there, Don, at the bottom of the Mediterranean. In the recorders and then the plane itself to do a forensics study of the plane.

LEMON: Someone in the studio asked Bob Flow (ph), one the floor directors said, why not have floating, you know, the black boxes and something that will float to the surface?

GALLO: Right. I mean it's all sorts of solutions that you can bring forward in this modern age that they would make it a lot easier to find with the impact.

LEMON: Mary Schiavo?

[23:55:00] SCHIAVO: Well, the easiest of -- yeah, -- the easiest of all would be to modify the black boxes which are 50-year-old technology. So, to have the continuous streaming, and I almost hate to say this because people just go crazy when you do, you could also have streaming video, you could have many ways to get data from the plane without searching for a small box in the bottom of the ocean which we have done now so many times over the last two years. The technology is there and it could stream almost continuously.

LEMON: David, what did you say, did you say is that what the military does, did you say that? David Soucie?

SOUCIE: Well, the military has a ejecting emergency locator transmitters that float so, when you're at emergency situations or it hits then they eject. The ELT senses the drop and ejects it and sits on -- it floats on top of the water and gives us an ELT tracking at 406 MHz which is exactly the same thing that you would have in the life raft. After an accident, you get out on a life raft so, it's the same technology. It's something that's available. It's something that should be on these airplanes.

LEMON: Yet, we're still hoping their search in the Mediterranean, hoping that they find a ping from the battery that is losing power and it cost -- they costs a lot money to put this.

GALLO: You're mounting such a full-op ocean expedition.

LEMON: Thank you all. I appreciate it. Have a great bight. That's it for us tonight. I see you right back here tomorrow night. Fareed Zakaria, CNN Special, "WHY THEY HATE US", starts in just a moment.