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DR. DREW
Madonna Trashed Her Tribute To Prince At The Billboard Music Awards On ABC; Critical New Information About The Hours Before Prince Died And His Trip To The Minneapolis Hospital For IV Fluids; Two Virginia Tech Engineering Students Under Arrest, Charged In Connection With The Death Of 13-Year-Old Nicole Lovell; Nicole`s Father Had To Leave The Courtroom When He Heard About His Daughter And What Had Happened To Her; A Child Comes Home From Sleepaway Camp With Rope Burns On Her Neck
Aired May 23, 2016 - 19:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:15] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MADONNA, RECORDING ARTIST (singing): I went to the doctor, guess what he told me.
UNKNOWN GROUP OF BACK-UP SINGERS: Guess what he told me.
MADONNA: He said, "Girl you better try to have fun, no matter what you do."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Was Madonna`s tribute to Prince at the Billboard Music Awards moving or, quote, "flat"?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Star Tribune here talked to a source who had heard from a paramedic who was on the ground here the day Prince died
on April 21st, and he said that Prince`s body had likely been lying there slumped in that elevator for at least six hours.
The day before he died, he was in a hospital. He was given intravenous fluids, according to sources, and that he was becoming more agitated over
the day after his plane made that emergency landing. He was treated for what may have been an overdose.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM: Madonna trashed her tribute to Prince at the Billboard Music Awards on ABC? More on that
later. But, first, critical new information about the hours before Prince died and his trip to the Minneapolis Hospital for IV fluids.
Joining me, Leo Terrell, Criminal Defense Attorney; Dr. Joye Carter, Medical Chief Examiner, Marion County, Indiana and Sara Sidner, CNN
Correspondent, live from Prince`s estate. Sara, there is new and more precise information about the timing of Prince`s death. Tell me about
that.
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Dr. Drew, we are learning sort of what led up even to the hours before he died. Learning from the Star
Tribune, a source telling them that they heard from a paramedic who was here responding to the scene, one of the first responders who had said that
when his body was found, he was likely dead for at least six hours before someone discovered him slumped in his elevator.
Also another interesting detail, that the day before he died that he was actually in the hospital getting intravenous fluids. We do not know what
it is for. We have not been told exactly why, because obviously there are rules governing that. But, it is an interesting tidbit that he actually
was in a hospital the day before he actually, you know, left this earth.
So, a lot of people wondering, "Why did not he stay there? What was going on that led him to have to get those fluids?" And, then that he was a bit
agitated over the days. You remember when his plane made an emergency landing? Actually, after he abruptly left the hospital and came back home,
some of the people around him telling the Star Tribune that he was feeling more and more and more agitated.
And, that is what prompted someone in his team to call someone in New York who had been working with Prince and say, "Hey, we need some help here."
So, very interesting few details. It gives a little bit better of a picture of what was going on up until the day he died.
PINSKY: Thanks, Sara. Let me put to a finer point on this. To say that - - you know, the fact that he got I.V. fluids when he went to the hospital means exactly nothing. Because if you go in to an emergency room, most of
the time they are going to want access to your system and they are going to do that by setting up an I.V.
So, just a person who looks ill shows up at the ER, they are going to get an I.V. So, it is not as though that implies anything specific. And, I
will tell you, though, the increasing agitation, though, does imply escalating drug withdrawal. It makes me wonder, Sara, if he got some
prescriptions at the hospital. That is what we should be looking at, what he received from that hospital visit.
SIDNER: Yes, and look, we have talked to his publicist in the days before who said, "Hey, he was suffering from flu." He could have been going there
to get hydrated.
PINSKY: No. No. No.
SIDNER: We know that he had visited the hospital before with dehydration issues.
PINSKY: Yes. No, no. Stop it, Sara.
SIDNER: We do not know --
PINSKY: Here is the deal. Sarah, hold on.
SINDER: I think we need to be clear. We really do not know.
PINSKY: But, Sara, here is what I know. Any time a publicist says dehydration, do not listen to him. Because, adult -- otherwise, healthy
young males do not get dehydration, number one. And, number two, he did not have the flu. Flue does not come and go.
But, drug withdrawal feels like the flu. So, I am saying this is all likely to be drug withdrawal. Let me go to Dr. Carter. Dr. Carter, let us
discuss why the paramedic -- a paramedic shows up and says, "This guy has been down at least six hours." To me I hear, "This body was in rigor
mortis."
DR. JOYE CARTER, CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: The body could have been in rigor mortis or they could have detailed livor mortis, where the blood has pooled
being in one position for over six hours. So, it could be both of those and the body temperature.
PINSKY: Explain to people what those two things are.
DR. CARTER: Rigor mortis is the body stiffening due to lactic acid buildup. That occurs usually between six to 12 hours. It begins to form
in the head to tail direction. Livor mortis is pooling of the blood from gravity. If the body is in one position for at least six hours.
PINSKY: And, you will see that in the skin and soft tissue, correct.
DR. CARTER: Correct, you will see a purplish coloration.
[19:05:00] PINSKY: So, if somebody, we can keep hearing about himself slumped in the shower. So, we are talking about down in the lower part of
his buttock or hip area, some accumulation of fluids and the rigor mortis, which is stiffness. Leo, I see you out there, nodding repeatedly. Do you
want to get in on this?
LEO TERRELL, ATTORNEY: Well, I love everything you just said as far as the medical analysis. But, again, I go back to when we had this conversation
last week with Sara. That bodyguard is lawyered up. And, I am going to tell you right now, drug withdrawal? I agree. Look, I want to look at the
legal evidence, the legal evidence, but I will tell you right now, there is a drug issue here.
The bodyguard who came on last week with Sara last week claimed no drugs existed around Prince. He is lawyered up. And, he has been told not to
say another word. It sounds just what I said last week.
PINSKY: Sara is shaking her head no. Sara, go ahead, talk to Leo.
SIDNER: You have to stop making those accusations, because unless you talk to him, unless you talk to the attorney, you have to -- let me speak. Let
me speak. You have to stop making those accusations.
TERRELL: I am not going to.
SIDNER: The person came out. He is not his only bodyguard. The other person who was with him who found him dead, he was not here when prince
died.
TERRELL: Answer me one question.
(CROSSTALK)
SIDNER: So, the question, who was with him --
TERRELL: Did that bodyguard -- answer me one question.
SIDNER: Let me finish.
TERRELL: Did that bodyguard get lawyered up? Did he get lawyered up?
SIDNER: Let me finish.
TERRELL: Answer that question. OK.
SIDNER: No, he does not have an attorney. That is the answer for you. But I want to say this. We now know who was here. There was another
person here beyond the son of the doctor in California, Andrew Kornfeld, he was here. We know that Kurt Johnson, a longtime friend and drummer, and
the estate manager, he was here.
We know that Meron Bekure, who is Prince`s assistant. That was the person that the Star Tribune spoke to. She was here. She is a younger woman,
near 20s, a former model. She was also here. We did not know that extra detail. So, we do know that Kurt Johnson does have an attorney.
His attorney is a criminal attorney who has made a statement saying, right now Kurt Johnson is very sad. He is not saying anything. He has been
represented. So, we know that there is at least a few people who do have attorneys, but the bodyguard that I spoke with, no attorneys.
PINSKY: OK. I got to --
SIDNER: So, he has nothing to hide.
PINSKY: I got to jump between you, guys.
SIDNER: And he does not need one.
PINSKY: I got to jump between you guys and go back to Dr. Carter. Dr. Carter, a lot of people asking why so long on this autopsy and why so long
for the toxicology report. Explain to people why these things take four to eight weeks.
DR. CARTER: Well, I think we have become very used to these instant answers on T.V., but this is real life, and it takes time for a drug
screen. You not only have to screen for the drug, you have to analyze the amount that is in the body. That may take several weeks.
It generally takes two months to have a complete autopsy report back. It is just not instant. They have to consider the drugs, consider what might
be in his system as far as the organs, as far as any cultures being done. The average autopsy of turnaround of a report is two to three months.
PINSKY: Yes. So, there again, people wonder why they cannot speed it up, why cannot you put Prince ahead of the line. This is real life, it takes
time. And, by the way, these people are doing other autopsies at the same time, other drug analyses alongside of this. Now, switching gears again,
Madonna`s tribute at the Billboard Music Awards on ABC came under fire. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MADONNA (singing): Because nothing compares. Nothing compares to you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Madonna panned on Twitter. One user tweeted, quote, "Let me be the first to say she sounds awful." Another user calls her rendition,
"Horrific and flat." On the phone, I had Keltie Knight, correspondent for "The Insider." Keltie, what is at the core of this criticism?
KELTIE KNIGHT, "THE INSIDER" CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, Dr. Drew, you cannot please everyone. Madonna really never stood a chance. She had
been ridiculed about this tribute since it was announced as you saw there. She came out, she sang "Nothing Compares To You," then at the end, she
brought Stevie Wonder out. They sang "Purple Rain."
After the performance, B.T. tweeted a promo for their Prince tribute that said, "Yes, we saw that. Do not worry, we got you." And, that really lit
up the internet, assuming they think she did a terrible job. Well, then drummer and producer, Questlove, who actually introduced her got on Twitter
and he said, "Now, let us not get ugly with playing the Prince would not approve game."
And, then Madonna had to take to her social media. She wrote on Instagram and said, "Anyone who wants to do a tribute to Prince is welcome to
whatever your age, gender or skin color." A lot of people felt like Madonna was not the right person to do a tribute to Prince, but she is one
of many that have already done a tribute.
There will be a hundred more tributes throughout the year, throughout award season. I have to say, I was at the Billboard Awards. I was backstage.
The fans were loud. They all had these light-up purple bracelets on. The entire arena was like a giant "Purple Rain." I actually watch the
performance backstage.
PINSKY: You like it.
KNIGHT: Celine Dion -- I thought it was actually quite respectful.
[19:10:00] PINSKY: OK.
KNIGHT: Madonna is not known for her big, beautiful, perfect voice, but she came out, I thought she did a respectful job. This was her friend.
They had, had this very interesting relationship over the years. She wanted to do a tribute. She did it her way. Love it or hate it, she is
Madonna. I thought it was nice.
Celine Dion, I watched the performance with was backstage crying. She loved it and she is a massive Prince fan. And, she just thought, "Oh, my
Gosh. It was so beautiful, and so moving for everyone that has lost people this year." She was really touched and I say, "Queen Celine, if you are
touched, I am touched."
PINSKY: Thank you, Keltie, I appreciate that.
Next up, a sociopath in training, so-called. That is what a suspect in a grisly murder of a teenager apparently told the police. And, there is even
more to that story.
And, still to come, a child comes home from sleepaway camp with rope burns on her neck. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Two Virginia Tech engineering students under arrest, charged in connection with the death of 13-year-old Nicole Lovell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Allegedly by a killer she met online.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:15:00] DAVID LOVELL, FATHER OF NICOLE LOVELL: These two individuals took my daughter from this planet and I want to know why.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: An 18-year-old David Eisenhauer is charged with Lovell`s abduction and murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: According to the investigation, he got help from 19-year-old Natalie Keepers, a former NASA intern.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIEUTENANT MIKE ALBERT, BLACKSBURG POLICE DEPARTMENT: Keepers helped Eisenhauer dispose of Nicole`s body.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The prosecution says she is in the planning up to her neck. They even got down to the weapon that would be
used and the technique that would be used, slitting her throat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Law enforcement official say, Eisenhauer and Lovell had an inappropriate relationship, one that she was planning to
expose.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, police exposed chilling text messages allegedly sent between the two students, and detectives reveal shocking confessions, apparently
from one of the accused. Back with Leo. Joining us, Loni Coombs, Attorney, former LA prosecutor; Jason Mattera, Correspondent of "Crime
Watch Daily." Jason, tell me about these new developments.
JASON MATTERA, "CRIME WATCH DAILY" CORRESPONDENT: Yes, out of the court hearing on Friday, what came out, I find it pretty shocking, is that you
have Eisenhauer and Keepers, they were basically plotting different ways how they were going to kill 13-year-old Nicole, and they were doing it in a
way as though they were going to pick what movie they are going to go see.
They were thinking, "Oh, maybe we should strangle her. Maybe we should fake suicide. Maybe we should drug her." And, even Eisenhauer says,
"Well, I prefer to knock her out, leave her on the road and let the elements kill her." Instead he settled on slitting her throat.
PINSKY: Oh my God. Now, after they disposed of the body, the two then exchanged with series of text. They were texts read aloud in court. Here
are some of them in this reenactment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NATALIE KEEPERS, FORMER NASA INTERN CHARGED WITH LOVELL`S ABDUCTION AND MURDER: I smell of cleaning supplies. I do not want to smell like that.
I want to take a shower.
DAVID E. EISENHAUER, VIRGINIA TECH ENGINEERING STUDENT CHARGED WITH LOVELL`S ABDUCTION AND MURDER: Same.
KEEPERS: I am so tired from this week. Like holy (EXPLETIVE WORD).
EISENHAUER: I guess we figured out how people commit mass murder now.
KEEPERS: Also high as 36. This smell will be masked longer.
EISENHAUER: As long as they do not find the body for a week, it will never be found. We definitely did overkill. Always do overkill when your life
is on the line.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: According to our affiliate, WSLS, the detective testified that Natalie referred to David, the male in this pairing as a sociopath. She
called herself a sociopath in training.
Joining me by phone, I have Case Jordan, CNN Contributor, Criminologist, host of Investigation Discovery`s Wives "With Knives." Casey, both of
these guys are sociopath to some degree, no?
CASEY JORDAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, CRIMINOLOGIST (via phone): To a large degree. But, you know, we always talk about this on your show, Dr. Drew,
the difference between the sociopath and the psychopath.
PINSKY: Yes.
JORDAN: And, in this particular situation, I would argue that she definitely has a lot of sociopathic tendencies that he may had absolutely
cross the line into psychopath. It is because his discussion of overkill. He called it a mass murder even when it is not. He really feels nothing
and his whole approach to this seems more innate than developed over time.
PINSKY: Right. So, psychopathy is almost a biological process. It is a process for these people who do not have feelings. They do not appreciate
that other people have feelings. And, when they have had even modest amounts of trauma themselves in their childhood, they get off on killing.
Let is call it what it is, Casey.
JORDAN: It would appear of that. I mean, he really goes on about how you have to do overkill, it is really the whole point of it. And, when they
discuss all of the options for killing this poor child -- and they are doing it, by the way, apparently because she might expose the inappropriate
relationship.
She, of course, is calling David Eisenhauer her boyfriend even though he is 18 and she is 13, and he does not want her parents or any other adults to
find out about it. And, that is how the plan was hatched. But, they talk about things that they have probably seen in movies.
You know, this whole idea of hitting her in the head from the backseat. That reminds me of the case from 20 years ago with Diane Zamora and David
Graham. It is like they researched it but notice how David Eisenhauer goes for the most heinous, horrible method of killing, slicing her throat, and
he does it by himself.
PINSKY: Our affiliate, WMAR, spoke to David last year because he was a star on his school track team back then. Here he is. This is this guy
that Casey and I have been talking about. Here is what he looked like last year.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EISENHAUER: I make my personal goals achievable, like -- or just out of reach of achievable. That way I am always constantly striving to better
myself. I just have this internal thing saying I want to be the best.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Leo, what is going to happen to these two?
TERRELL: They are dead on arrival. They are two dead people walking. And, the motivation is clear. You do not have to prove motive. The
motivation of trying to get rid of this 13-year-old girl because of inappropriate sexual conduct is pretty evident along with text messages.
They have given a blueprint of admission. They are going to be fried.
PINSKY: Loni, I see you gently nodding there. My question, though, would be is there any opportunity for someone representing David to say that she
was the mastermind?
[19:20:00] LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, yes, that is always a possibility, Dr. Drew. We talk about this whenever there is more than one
defendant being charged. Look, she is the one that during her interview with the police, first she started denying the whole thing, and by the end
of the interview, she is laying the whole thing out and saying, "We planned this whole thing out" and saying, "We planned this whole thing together."
She gives them enough detail and takes them to the location where she says the killing actually occurred. She gives them some of the victim`s items
that she took back to her dorm room with her after they killed her.
PINSKY: You know, these both are disgust -- she is almost more disgusting and he is evil, right? Is that what we are dealing with here?
COOMBS: Yes. Exactly. And, that might be something that his attorney says, "Look, she lays this whole thing out, but the one thing she does do
she says, "When it comes to the killing, I was not there. He did it all by himself. I was involved before, I was involved after, but I was not
involved in the actual killing."
PINSKY: And, when the detective asked her why she got involved, she said she wanted to be, quote, "Part of a secret club, the best club ever,"
because he understood her. So, Jason, that is her being manipulated by him?
MATTERA: No, absolutely not. She seemed like a very willing accomplice. In fact, she said she was glad to help out with the investigation. From
the notes and reports we are seeing, it does not seem like she has any remorse or even for suggesting that she was manipulated by David
Eisenhauer. She was proud to go -- she said she is a part of the best club in the world. In this case being a club of sociopaths.
PINSKY: Well, let us be clear. Sociopaths could be just entertaining people that do not treat you very nicely. These are evil psychopaths. I
mean, this is -- at least this is shaping up to be that, based on what we are hearing.
Next up, Nicole`s father had to leave the courtroom when he heard about his daughter and what had happened to her.
Still to come, how did a 12-year-old get this rope burn on her neck? The school says from a swing. Her mother says, "Swing? No way." Back after
this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY WILSON, BLACKSBURG PD CHIEF: We have located the remains of 13- year-old nicole madison lovell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Police say she went missing from her home and was stabbed to death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: David Eisenhauer is charged with Lovell`s abduction and murder. Now, police say he has an accomplice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: 19-year-old Natalie Marie Keepers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I think there might be more to this young lady.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: When two or more people get together, they will do things that individually they would never do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: "I was excited to be a part of something secretive and special."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Two Virginia Tech students charged in the gruesome murder of a 13- year-old girl. The male suspect is described as a loner. The female told detectives that said she was, quote, "A sociopath in training." So, could
anything in their histories have signaled trouble, violent tendencies?
Back with Loni, Leo, Jason and Casey. Here is what Natalie told a judge about her mental health history. That she had previously been suicidal.
She was a cutter. She had anxiety, had been on an antidepressant, and bullying in middle school. But, Casey Jordan, none of that adds up in any
kind of specific way to what we are seeing here.
JORDAN: It does not, but if you want to put all of that kind of in Layman`s term, it means that she has some kind of void in her life that`s
he desperately sell. And, so the depression and anxiety, these things are really symptoms of a much bigger issue in her life. When she meets David
Eisenhauer, she feels that void completely filled.
That is why she feels this bond, this fixation. She is now in a club. She feels like a person for the first time in her life, and that is why she is
loyal to him and says, "Do not worry, I can clean up after this. I will help you." She buys cleaning supplies.
And, he by himself probably could not have done it without the reinforcement of her loyalty and her strength. But together, just like the
cop said, together they make a wicked attraction, and they bolster each other to actually carry out this insanely crazy murder that just does not
make any sense.
PINSKY: I am going to put a fine point on it. The officer said two people often will do things that one either alone will not. And, Casey called it
a folie a deux, which is two people in a folly.
But it is also people that follow cults and other behavioral manifestations that you would not expect from that individual under the sway of another,
really horrible things start happening. Loni, I see you nodding vigorously.
COOMBS: Yes. We also see like people who joined terrorist groups --
PINSKY: Yes.
COOMBS: People you think would never do things like that, but the point of the most basic needs of every human being is to feel special, to feel
needed, to feel recognized. And, when they do not get that from anyone that they think in their own lives, and then this one person that finally
shines some attention on them, it ends up being someone in a terrorist group or someone who has these tendencies, they will do whatever it takes
to keep getting that feeling, that need filled.
PINSKY: Detectives did not get much out of David. He told them to focus on finding the body, quote, "Rather than interrogate the last person to see
her alive. I am calling a lawyer. I am done." Jason? Lovely dude.
MATTERA: Yes, right. He said that he met up with Nicole, and once he figured out that she was not 16, in fact, she was much younger, he said he
did not pursue it any further. We know at that point that is when he freaked out, according to Natalie, and say, "Hey, listen, we are dealing
with someone who is much, much younger, and we believe that is the motive for hatching this horrible and horrific plot to have her killed." But,
yes, I mean it does not matter what this kid says. At this point, he is going to jail and hopefully much worse.
PINSKY: Leo, I see you kind of smirking out there. You already put these guys in prison, so I know what you feel. Go ahead.
TERRELL: I put them in prison already, but I got news for you. They are going to lawyer up and they are going to go after each other. And, I got
news for you, the young girl, 19-year-old girl is going to give up as much evidence for a lesser plea, but they are both going to jail, but they are
going to shoot each at trial. They will have separate trials, probably.
[19:30:05] PINSKY: Wait a minute. Do you mean to say that all of this verbiage and all the material that Natalie was giving was under her
lawyer`s instruction?
TERRELL: I will submit to you the following. The boy will fry. The girl will get a reduced sentence. That is what I can predict right now based on
what I have seen.
PINSKY: In another text exchange, David told Natalie that -- again, get the names straight here. Natalie was the accomplice, Nicole was the
victim. So David Eisenhauer told Natalie that Nicole was blackmailing another guy, too. Loni, is that where his defense is going to lie?
COOMBS: Well, yes, there is actually another witness involved here, another friend of David who said -- he has told the media that "Look, the
police already came and took my phone. And, on my phone I have texts from David where he tells me that he met this girl at a party, that she ended up
being underage. And, he was really worried about this and he asked him, `where can I dispose of a body?`"
PINSKY: Wow.
COOMBS: So, we have got all of this planning on David`s part.
PINSKY: Casey, let me ask you one last thing. What percentage of the population do we think has psychopathic or let us say psychopathic
tendencies, somebody that could kill and not really feel anything about it?
JORDAN: You know, I am not even going to venture a guess, because a psychopath is so manipulative, so adept at gaining people`s trust,
mimicking emotions and appearing normal to unsuspecting people. They have long-term relationships.
I do not even care about the number who had been diagnosed. I am infinitely more worried about that subterranean population of psychopaths
that currently have us fooled. And, I would argue David Eisenhauer might be a good candidate for that. Nobody from high school can stay a bad thing
about him, and now look what he has done.
PINSKY: Now, Nicole`s father, again, the victim`s father was at the hearing on Friday. Let us make sure what he posted on Facebook. Quote, "I
had to leave the courthouse. The details of my daughter`s murder was more than I could hear, little more than my heart could take. I thought I could
be strong and handle it, but I am a weak person, I guess. I am more broken now than ever."
Listen, what father, what feeling human being could -- listen, we are not the girl`s relatives, so we can barely listen to this. Our heart goes out
to the father. He may be broken, but he was broken by what these monsters did to your family, not because you have some impairment in your strength.
Next up, a girl goes to camp and comes back with -- well, take a look at this. What happened to a 12-year-old child. And still to come, an end to
a mystery 25 years in the making. A missing person`s case is officially a murder. The star witness in that case is here. Back after this.
[19:35:00] (MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: The sixth grade female student was on an overnight trip with her class in a ranch in Blanco County. The children
playing were on a swing with a rope tight to it, so they could pull each other. The young girl said she felt a rope around her neck and it jerked
her to the ground and she sustained these wounds.
She said sys she got up and saw three white classmates standing nearby and asked them, "Why they did it?" And, they said, they had nothing to do with
it, that it was an accident. But the school did not call her mother and did not tell her upon their return the next day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: An African-American young girl returns from a school trip with that rope burn around her neck, all the way around. The school says
accident, her mother says racial attack. Back with loni, Leo, Jason and Spirit, Psychotherapist. His 12-year-old kid was one of two African-
American children on the trip. Do we think her fellow sixth graders targeted her Spirit because of race, or is this just a terrible accident?
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, you know, it is hard to say, Dr. Drew, because one of the things that we did not talk about in the package but
then I was able to ascertain later on is that mom is saying that there was some racially motivated bullying that had been happening for several
months. Now, my thing, though, is that if that is the case, then why on earth would you allow your child to even go on an activity like this?
PINSKY: Right. And, Jason, why did not they do something sooner?
MATTERA: Well, you are right. We were not there so we do not know if this was kids just horsing around and it was an accident or something was
racially motivated. But I tell you, Dr. Drew, what does not sit well with me is it appears that this is an anatomy of black mail blackmail.
I mean you have the mom and her lawyer saying to the school, "We are going to go public unless you pay us $2.7 million in order to put our child
through middle school, through high school, through college and even to get her medical degree.
I mean, my goodness, it just seems like a big stretch to eke from this incident that happened on the playground, to giving up coughing $2.7
million to pay for this girl all the way through medical school.
PINSKY: Leo, blackmail, money grab, what do you think?
TERRELL: I could find it offensive what I just heard. First of all, let me tell you right now. Settlement and confidential settlements occur all
the time to avoid litigation. Now, how many white kids have had a rope around their neck?
Are you going to sit here and make an assumption that this is just an incident? Let us be very clear. There is a history of black people being
roped with a noose around their neck. So, I want to know what type of being this called. What is the name of this game? For you to minimize
this is insulting to every African-American.
PINSKY: Loni, you agree?
COOMBS: No, I do not agree at all. Look, I understand you are passionate, Leo, but you cannot immediately go and say this was a lynching, because it
is --
TERRELL: I am not saying this is a lynching.
COOMBS: OK. Well, you are talking about the history of black people with the rope around their neck. I believe that is what you are referring to.
TERRELL: What is the name of the game they play? What is the game?
COOMBS: Listen.
TERRELL: I want to play this game. What is the name of the game?
COOMBS: You are an attorney, I am an attorney. There is such thing as negotiation between two parties when you are talking about what are we
going to try to do to settle this issue. There are also things called extortion. And, attorneys can cross the line into extortion if they are
threatening another party saying, "You have to do this. If you do not, I will do that.
[19:40:00] And, there is a letter from this attorney saying, "I want to settle this situation with this much money, and if not, I am going to have
to release all this stuff to the media on of the anniversary, the 100th anniversary of the lynching of Jesse Washington.
TERRELL: You can talk about the money --
PINSKY: One at a time.
TERRELL: Please, just answer this question. What is the name of the game because I want to play that game. What is the name of the game, where you
can get a rope around your neck? Name the game. You cannot tell me that.
COOMBS: There is a rope swing involved here Leo. Nobody has seen this rope swing. Nobody has gone out there and tried to reenact and say, is
this possible. Could this be an accident? We do not know.
PINSKY: Leo, I am going to tell you --
TERELL: I want to know the name of the game.
PINSKY: Well, I am interested in the same thing, but at first what I heard about this I thought, "Oh, come on. Come on, everybody, what are we
getting here?" But there was a piece that stood out for me and that is the image of this kid`s neck.
TERRELL: Yes.
PINSKY: It is circumferential. It is all the way around her neck.
TERRELL: Yes.
PINSKY: And, so, I thought, "Well, you know, they get their neck tied. But, it is always something they lassoed -- I hate to say this, but the
best thing this could be is they sort of lassoed her or something in some sort of game, but what is that game called? What is that game? It is a
little bit --
TERRELL: Look, this is a private school. These kids are very aware of history. I want to know the name of the game. Before - and For my
colleague to say this is just an incident, you are downplaying a significant major injury to this young girl with a rope burn around her
neck. I find that horrifically offensive.
PINSKY: Spirit, what do you say?
MATTERA: Leo is jumping --
TERRELL: No, you are jumping to conclusions. What is the name of the game?
PINSKY: Well, hold on. Spirit and Jason. Jason, you may answer, but Spirit first, and Jason.
MATTERA: You are automatically saying this is a racial incident. You have no evidence. We are saying, it could be or could not be. It could be kids
messing around or it could be racially motivated. We have no idea.
TERRELL: Name the game.
MATTERA: These are kids. They could be horsing around.
TERRELL: Name the game. Name the game.
MATTERA: Leo, you are 100 percent sure? You are making yourself look like a fool on national television.
TERRELL: Ou are going to call personal attach. Shame on you.
PINSKY: Shame on you, guys.
TERRELL: Shame on you. First, to attack lady - he would not name the game, so now he goes personal on me. He attacks me personal.
MATTERA: Kids are playing with a rope and you automatically assume you have 12-year-olds trying to pretend they are lynching another student. By
the way, there was another black student and she did not even cooperate.
PINSKY: Gentlemen. One at a time, gentlemen. Spirit, Spirit, Spirit.
TERRELL: Personal attack. He personally attack me.
PINSKY: Shame, shame, shame. I need a shame bell. Shame bell. But, Spirit, let us get some -- we need a mental health moment here. Help us.
SPIRIT: Because it is so passionate, Dr. Drew, because this issue of racism, because lynching in this country, because all of those things that
you just saw played out right here, this is why we have to go slow and proceed with extreme caution.
Because if it is, in fact, exactly what we are afraid of, then it has to be prosecuted. It has to be brought to the forefront.
PINSKY: And, I will tell you what --
SPIRIT: But if it is not, then we have to be careful not to call it what it is not -- for this reason.
PINSKY: Even if it is not, it is echoes of our history coming down upon us now. This happens at a 100-year anniversary of an event called the Waco
horror. So, that echo plays out no matter what we are doing now as it pertains to the facts of this case, that echo reverberates. Loni, last
thought.
COOMBS: Right. Well, it is this the 100th anniversary of that lynching of Jesse Washington, which is what the attorney for this young girl played
upon when he was communicating with this school saying, "I am going to release all of this to the media on this day if we do not work this case
out ahead of time." The attorney himself was playing on this whole issue here.
PINSKY: All right. OK.
COOMBS: It is a very emotional issue.
PINSKY: It is very emotional issue. Leo is representing it well.
TERRELL: I demand an apology.
PINSKY: Leo, bullying to something race, what else this might be, we are going to ask the mother`s attorney. I am going to do it after the break.
We will get back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: The young girl and her mother, Sandy Rougely, say she has been bullying and that the bullying could be racially
motivated.
(END VIDEO CL IP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ATTORNEY: Her lawyers to use the media to publicly accuse and falsely accuse young children of racial prejudice, racial
violence and then somehow conspiring to cover it up is truly saddening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The rope burn around the neck of an African-American child was an accident, according to her school. Her mom says this was an attack. I am
back with Loni, Leo, Spirit, and Jason. And, on the phone, I have Levi McCathern, attorney for the mother and daughter, the young lady we just
saw. Levi, how is the young lady doing now?
LEVI G. MCCATHERN, II, ATTORNEY FOR MOM AND DAUGHTER: physically she is doing very well. Mentally she is not doing very well at all. We have got
her in counseling and trying to make a recovery.
PINSKY: What do we think this was? The school says you have made this a race issue. Do you think it is bullying?
MCCATHERN: Yes. Let me tell you. I think it is one of the worst cases of bullying I have ever seen. And, I think it was a complete non-response by
the school. And to me, the bigger issue is to get issue here, this is a defenseless child. Whether she is white, yellow, blue, pink, purple, the
school needed to do something to defend her and they did absolutely nothing.
PINSKY: Leo and Jason, you guys were going out in the last block. I want to give each of you a chance to an opportunity to ask this attorney a
question. Leo, you first.
TERRELL: Thank you. Has there been any investigation by the police, by the school that has done interviews to find out the nature of this
incident? Has there been any type of investigation from the police or from the school?
MCCATHERN: The police investigation is ongoing. There have been several police departments look at it. It has been a bit of an issue exactly,
which one should be doing it, because of where it happens.
The school did no investigation whatsoever until I got involved. And, they have made some statements since I have got involved about an investigation
that was done. But, I certainly do not know any of the results of the investigations.
PINSKY: Jason --
MCCARTHERN: Go ahead.
PINSKY: Jason, go ahead.
MATTERA: According to news reports, none of the students who were present at this camp gathering including another black student were able to
corroborate the events. Is that the case? Or were other students coming forward saying indeed was a racially motivated attack as opposed to kids
just horsing around?
[19:50:09] PINSKY: Or even something malicious, the bullying attack.
MCCARTHERN: Yes. I think you are getting very confused. It certainly looks malicious. And, the only people who were witness to it, to my
knowledge, were the children who were the perpetrators of the incident.
PINSKY: And, again, the great question That leo was asking, what game do you play that ends up with a rope burn all the way around your neck? Has
anybody come forward with a description of what game they were supposed to have been playing?
MCCATHERN: Absolutely not. And remember, my client literally ends up on the ground not even knowing how the rope got around her neck, which means
it had to have come from behind her and she removes the rope herself while she is lying on the ground without any assistance.
PINSKY: Loni?
COOMBS: Mr. McCarthern, I have a question for you. I know you are a very high profile attorney from Dallas, Texas. You represent the Dallas Cowboys
and you also represent Jerry Jones and his family. How in the world did you find out about this case in Waco, Texas, this essentially bullying
case?
MCCATHERN: The mother actually googled and looked through some awards that I had won and called the office and asked if I would represent her. And, I
felt it was a case that cried out for representation. She had a story that needed to be told.
PINSKY: Spirit, last thoughts? Let us do this.
SPIRIT: Yes, at the end of the day, Dr. Drew, I just hope that this kid`s well-being is at the forefront of all of this. Because if she did not even
realize that this was racially motivated and if mom did not do what she needed to do earlier in when they said that there were racial issues way
before this and she let her go to camp, there is a lot of other things that have to be parsed out here. And, I just hope that everybody goes slow and
keep their passions out of it and keep the child first.
PINSKY: And, a reminder to everyone, take a look at Jason`s report about a priest with an alleged double life. That is on Tuesday with "Crime Watch
Daily." "Crime Watch Daily," you can watch that on Tuesday. It is a story about suspected sex, money, bondage. Jason, what is this priest suspected
of having done?
MATTERA: Yes, you have a priest from the New York archdiocese, who is accused of embezzling over a million dollars to partially pay for hard core
S&M sessions with his male prostitute. It gets better. I mean, he was basically this male prostitute`s toilet slave.
I am not going to explain on T.V. what that is, but it is pretty gross. The whistleblower, the person who just blew this story wide open was the
male prostitute`s girlfriend, who was also a stripper and she is giving her first exclusive interview to "Crime Watch Daily" and that is airing
tomorrow.
PINSKY: Well, Jason, good times. Next up --
MATTERA: Thank you.
PINSKY: Thank you, panel. A mother knows what would happened to her little boy she reported missing. She has a 25-year-old secret finally been
revealed? Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A mystery unsolved in Middlesex County for more than two decades. Michelle Lodzinski guilty in the murder of her 5-
year-old son in 1991.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE LODZINSKI, CONVICTED FOR MURDER OF HER 5-YEAR-OLD SON IN 1991: After I paid for a soda, I turned around and he was gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: She later changed that story saying he was abducted. The search went on for months.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TROY SLATEN, ATTORNEY: Maybe her story is truthful.
SPIRIT: Then why is not she hysterical?
PAT LALAMA, EDITOR AT "CRIME WATCH DAILY": Let us go back to telling the authorities four different stories. Duh.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The prosecutor`s office had based its case primarily on this blanket found near Timmy`s body in 1992 in a marshy area.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SLATEN: 25-year-old cases are very hard to prove. Memories fade. I cannot even remember what I had for dinner last night, Dr. Drew.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: A jury has found Michelle Lodzinski guilty of murdering Timmy, 25 years after he had vanished. She will be sentenced this summer. She faces
up to life in prison. Joining me by phone, I had Dawn Matthew`s, Timmy`s former baby-sitter and a key witness in this case. She recognized the
important blanket. And, Dawn, you feel certain that this was enough to convict Michelle?
DAWN MATTHEWS, TIMMY`S BABYSITTER: Yes. Absolutely.
PINSKY: Tell me why. It is just a blanket. Why such certainty?
MATTHEWS: Because it was his blanket. And, I believe that he was not at that carnival. It was just a cover-up story all along. He was a shy,
timid little boy. There was no way he would have wandered off with strangers without making a fuss or walked off on his own.
There is just too many stories, too many different scenarios that she gave. And, to not testify herself, just right there and then told you that there
is something wrong with the whole picture.
PINSKY: Dawn, did you have suspicions right away about the mom?
MATTHEWS: Absolutely.
PINSKY: And in court, prosecutors painted Michelle, as a young mom, who saw Timmy as a burden. She did not want boys. She ended up having sons
and not telling them about Timmy, interestingly. Does that description seem right to you, that she really saw this little boy as a burden?
MATTHEWS: Yes. He was in her way. She was very young. She was a young mom. She went out often, very often. There were times when she never came
home. When I baby-sat, I was a teenager and he would spend the night at my parents` house with my mom having to take off the next day from work.
And, her sister wanted him to go live in Florida with her when she moved there and Michelle would not let him. And, probably, if she did let Timmy
go with her sister, he would probably still be alive today.
PINSKY: Thank you. Thank you, Dawn. Leo, a blanket enough to convict somebody?
TERRELL: No way. And, this woman -- You hear what she said? Oh, she did not testify. I believe, I believe. That woman was wrongfully convicted.
No DNA evidence. Bad decision.
PINSKY: They planned to appeal that case. So, we will keep an eye on it.
TERRELL: Thank you.
PINSKY: DVR us, so you can watch us any time. Panel, excellent job tonight. Thank you so much. Thank you all for watching. We do appreciate
it. Please tell a friend about the show. We feel like we are doing a pretty good job here. We would like you to be a part of it. Nancy Grace,
up next.
END
