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Trump & Clinton Hold Rallies; Trump Attacks Clintons Using Unproven Allegations; Pro-Clinton Ad Using Trump's Words About Women; Nastiness Of Election 2016; Trump And The Future Of The GOP; How Much Uglier Can It Get? Aired 9-10p ET

Aired May 24, 2016 - 21:00   ET


[21:00:12] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Stay tuned for that. Also covers the Washington primary later this evening.

"CNN TONIGHT" with Don Lemon starts now.

DON LEMON, CNNHOST: We are going to begin with Breaking News tonight. Dueling rallies, Donald Trump set to address supporters in Albuquerque, New Mexico, Hillary Clinton to speak to her supporters in Riverside, California, dueling rallies.

This is "CNN TONIGHT", I'm Don Lemon.

No matter where you get your news, you know, the mud is flying between Trump and Clinton. It is harsh, it is nasty and some say it's adding up to be the ugliest presidential campaign in recent history.

Here's CNN's chief political corespondent Dana Bash.


DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It is political guerrilla warfare.

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hillary Clinton's husband abused women more than any other man that we know of in the history of politics, right?

BASH: A source familiar with Donald Trump's campaign strategy tells CNN that Trump dredging up toggery unproven allegations about Bill Clinton's past is not based on data or focus groups from his new pollster or his new partner, the Republican National Committee.

TRUMP: She's married to a man who hurt many women.

BASH: Instead, CNN is told, this is vintage Trump going with his gut and shooting from the hip seething after seeing attacks about his own past statements about woman like this ad from pro-Clinton Super PAC.

TRUMP: Does she have a good body, no. Does she have a fat ass, absolutely.

MICHAEL COHEN, SPECIAL COUNSEL TO DONALD TRUMP: She attacked Mr. Trump as being as sexist, misogynist, and that's inaccurate. Donald Trump's not any of those things.

BASH: A challenge for Trump in attacking Bill Clinton as anti-women and tagging Hillary as an enabler his own past statements of support like in 1998 in the midst of Bill Clinton's scandal with Monica Lewinsky.

TRUMP: Can you imagine how controversial I'd be? You think about him with the women, how about me with the women.

BASH: Even 10 years later in 2008.

TRUMP: Look at the trouble Bill Clinton got into with something that was totally unimportant and they tried to impeach him which was nonsense.

BASH: Here's how a long time Trump confidant explained his 180.


COHEN: He was a private citizen who was friendly with the Clintons and he was trying to protect a friend, all right? Now it's a different game.

BASH: And then, there are conspiracy theories like the false charge that Bill Clinton's White House Council Vince Foster was murdered despite multiple investigations ruling it a suicide. Trump told the "Washington Post", Foster's death was, "Very fishy".

But said, I will say there are people who continue to bring it up because they think it was absolutely a murder. I don't do that because I don't think it's fair. Even that feeds the 2016 campaign conversation which Bill Clinton himself clearly saw coming saying this just last week.

BILL CLINTON, FMR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You think your stuff I said about her is bad, they accused me of murder. I mean, our memories are short. It's what they do.

BASH: As for Hillary Clinton so far she's letting others do the responding which the first female House speaker told CNN is the way to go.

UNIDENTIFIED: Hillary saying exactly thing don't stoop to that level, really. Just keep it up here.

BASH: Some sources close to Clinton are urging her not to take what they call Trump's bait.

HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I know that that's exactly what he is fishing for and, you know, I'm not going to be responding.


BASH: And a veteran Clinton backer told me today, Don, that if Clinton engages, she will simply be agreeing to turn the campaign into an insultfest, something that she simply doesn't want to do and her campaign doesn't want to do, at least not yet.

LEMON: And what about other Democrats? You talked to the former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, but do all Democrats agree that Hillary Clinton shouldn't take the bait?

BASH: No. I'll look, I mean, all Democrats don't agree for sure even those who all support Hillary Clinton. There are lots of different opinions. But for now, based on my conversations with people who are familiar with her strategy, they're determined at Clinton headquarters for her to go after Donald Trump on issues like you saw today on his past business practices, excuse me a lot just loosing my voice -- on the housing crisis, things like that.

But, you know, at this point, Don, it is unclear whether or not she is going to be able to kind of hold it together if he continues to go on and on and on about it. They say at Clinton headquarters that she is thick skinned. She's used to this and she can just try to ignore it and move on.

LEMON: Well, Dana, I have more questions for you. But I'll let you get a drink of water. And we thank you very much. I'll take those questions out with the panel. Thank you Dana Bash, I appreciate that.

BASH: Thanks Don.

LEMON: Take care of your voice, your throat there.

My political dream team is standing by. Trump supporter Kayleigh McEnany is here and Matt Lewis, the senior contributor to The Daily Caller. Nina Turner, former Ohio State senator who is supporting Bernie Sanders.

[21:05:06] Plus CNN's political commentators Errol Louis, Patti Solis Doyle who is supporting Hillary Clinton and Charles Blow, New York Times Op-Ed columnist. Thank you all for joining us.

OK, is Donald Trump being this aggressive this early on because he is trying to stop Hillary Clinton from launching an even stronger attack against him you think? I'll turn it to Errol Louis.

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think of him as really kind of ending the primary phase of this campaign where you try to sort of rile up your partisans by attacking the other party and showing that you're going to be the most ferocious, the most outrageous. The heart is battler.

I think also he's trying to sort of inoculate himself with a portion of his base.

LEMON: Right.

LOUIS: With some people who don't want to hear that -- those kind of comments. It's a very tough commercial that has him in his own words saying all kinds of unkind things about women. This is his way I think of instinctively trying to push back. Whether it works or not we'll see. LEMON: Patti, if we've gotten to Vince Foster already and, you know, and other women where else is there to go? How much lower can this go?

PATTI SOLIS DOYLE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, and knowing Donald Trump it probably can go lower but, you know, I worked in the Clinton White House in the 1990s very closely with Hillary Clinton and I knew Vince Foster and I worked with Vince Foster and Vince Foster was a lovely man with a lovely wife and a lovely family and he tragically committed suicide and for Donald Trump to be dredging this up I think is wrong and it's an insult to Vince Foster's family and it's going to backfire on him. I just don't think voters are ready to see this kind of battle.

LEMON: Charles Blow?

CHARLES BLOW, NEW YORK TIMES OP-ED COLUMNIST: Well, I mean, I disagree slightly in the sense that I'm always the opinion bring it on. And if you're going to unload your gun early in the battle that's actually bad for you because no one can sustain outrage for six months, right? And by coming with your worst digging up your largest scoops of dirt this early while we're still before the conventions even, you have to understand how quickly people tired of this when it was actually happening, right?

And now you're asking people to dig back 25 years and to sustain outrage for six months over things that you are conflating, you're exactly telling the truth about whether or not these are proven facts or rather these were accusations that were never proven. In some cases there were no charges ever brought. I think she's overplaying it but I say I'm always for saying put it all out there because then you can say this is what you've said, some of it's true and some of it's not.

Now let's look at you because you brought this to the table and I think that when you stack those two things up against each other he has to be convinced that he will stand up better and I think that Hillary Clinton is doing the right thing and saying that I'm going (inaudible) to politics because that is my strong suit. And he knows that's not his so he'll go with to dirt and she's going to stay on what she has and I think that is a smart move.

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: But it was a Hillary Clinton Super PAC that first went back 25 years ago to find Donald Trump's statements and Donald Trump is simply retorting with, if you want to talk about women you're such an advocate for women ...

LEMON: Is that the ad of him in his own words?


LEMON: That's not 25 years.


MCENANY: Half of those statements were from 25 years ago. So stay and went back 25 years basically finding his statements. The worst they could find so if they're going to go back 25 years by all means we're going to go back 25 years. And here is the thing Hillary Clinton made this an issue when she said on college campuses, on her website tweeted out that victims of sexual assault deserve to be heard believe in and supported. Well, let's start with those who have accused her husband.


LEMON: Hang on, hang on, hang on. Kayleigh you listen to Dana's back it was basically a fact check on Vince Foster and all the women who are accuse. And basically, in fact, they are saying that there is no -- there has been no proof for any of this. Most of it has been innuendo and I don't know how old you are but those of us understand this -- those of us who lived through the 90s we went through this at nosey (ph) in the 90s.

MCENANY: Well I approved you ...

LEMON: It's been litigated and reported. Not saying that it's off limits but I think the American people have most people have seen this already litigated.

MCENANY: So, well, the beef you have then is with the "Washington Post" who brought up Vince Foster if you go through ...

DOYLE: No, Donald Trump brought up to ...


MCENANY: When we asked him about Vince Foster so its the "Washington Post" a high class tabloid is what I consider the "Washington Post". Who was going back and you (inaudible) and with regard innocent insult, I think to sit here and say that Juanita Broaddrick and Kathleen Willey do not have viable claims. These women have very detailed accounts of thing things that happened to them. They deserve to be heard and if these accusations were made towards George W. Bush ...

LEMON: I agree with you. I heard you say that earlier. Let me say this to you.

MCENANY: ... he would all be sitting here, and talking about this right now.

LEMON: I think you're right, all victims of sexual abuse or at least accusers so we'll have -- you should have a voice. But these one had their voice in the '90s. As I said, I remember sitting there when I was old enough with my parents and my family going, how much longer do we have to listen to this? We've heard from these women. We feel awful for them they should have their day, but they have had their day, have they not, Matt?

[21:10:09] MATT LEWIS, TOO DUMB TO FAIL AUTHOR: Well, it's relevant again because Hillary Clinton's running for president. A lot of people don't really -- actually not everybody does remember the '90s. (CROSSTALK)

LEWIS: And the accusation is that it's hypocrisy for Hillary to attack Donald Trump for what he said about women when she was. According to Donald Trump enabling Bill Clinton and going after an engaging in character assassination against the victims.

DOYLE: Can I just say, I was there in the '90s with Hillary Clinton. She was the one who has lied to. She was one who is betrayed to say, to imply that she enabled her husband's behavior. It's just wrong. Flat and simple, wrong.

LEMON: This is the first time I think that I've heard of an, in any situation and correct me if I'm wrong, where the woman who was cheated on is now the one being accused of doing something wrong. Usually women stand behind the women who was cheated on rather than saying well, she enabled him. If someone cheated on me I'm not going say nice things about the person that cheating on me.


DOYLE: Exactly.

TURNER: I mean that shouldn't happen. I mean, you know, I'm supporting Senator Bernie Sanders, no doubt about it, but to blame Secretary Clinton for that is wrong. But this is a part of what's going to happen if Secretary Clinton is the nominee and Mr. Trump is already the nominee.

LEMON: It's the reality.

TURNER: Drama, drama, drama and you know who's going to left out to everyday American people because we got to watch who can sling more mud at the other person and make it stick.

LEMON: The strategy is she started it first, is that what it is that's happening?

LEWIS: Yeah. He only talks about being a great counter puncher, but look I think this is what Donald Trump does. He is driving the media narrative everyday and no, it's not going to be even foster tomorrow. It's going to be something else tomorrow. And so, don't worry about him like for ...


LEMON: And Paula Jones or something else's.


LEMON: All right. All right. Everybody -- hang on, hang on. Hold that thought. I'll let you get to the other side of the break. Everyone stay with me.

Straight ahead much more on our coverage for the race for the White House right after this. Don't go anywhere. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:15:38] LEMON: Neither Donald Trump nor Hillary Clinton is their party's official nominee and yet the mud is flying between the two sides.

Back with me now is my political dream team, Kayleigh McEnany, Matt Lewis, Nina Turner, Errol Louis, Patti Solis Doyle, and Charles Blow.

OK. So this morning Chris Cuomo spoke with Trump's associate Michael Cohen about the nasty turn this campaign is taking. Here it is.


COHEN: Donald Trump is this uber billionaire real estate developer, possibly the greatest negotiator in the history of this planet. He'll never come out with his first offer, right, in real estate right off the bat. Meaning if she thinks that this is bad, right? This is nothing. He's not coming out with his strong, right, from day number one.


LEMON: So that sort of refused. What you were saying Charles Blow, you're saying, you know, oh this is as bad as it gets and now I know who you are. He says there's more where this came from.

BLOW: Yeah, but you're right. So, I don't know how much to put into what he's saying, right? So, he's an associate, you know, probably on the payroll. I don't know whatever the deal is with this. So you have to that sort of thing with the grants up.

But, one thing that I found very fascinating about that interview that was not played in that clip was he said when he was confronted with the clips of Trump defending Clinton in the moment when things were actually happening. He said well he was a friend of his and so you would expect him to defend his friends. And then in the same breath he's saying, the woman who was married to him should not have defended him, even though she was -- her relationship was even stronger to the man who was doing wrong. So, I think that we in the media at some point have to pull back and say there's some truth here.

LEWIS: No, you're using logic.

BLOW: But right, right.


BLOW: We shall be forcing logic onto not only onto Trump, but onto everyone who speaks for him and say and every time you say something you don't get a chance to say five things and just because time runs out we only fact check one. If he says five things that are false, we need to fact check five things on the air and that's it, even if that's the only thing we get to cover (inaudible).

And I think that we're doing is that we're complicit in this boom goggle that he is conducting on all of us by tweeting in the middle of the night, so he can take over the morning shows. And he can wake up in the morning and Google and call in and probably giving his coffee while he's talking with people on the phone which I have never seen before. And we're not fact checking on the fly and saying no, you can't say that, you can't say that.

You can't explicitly say he rape. You can say he was accused of rape. You can say there are women who accuse him of doing things, but you cannot say that he did it until somebody in the court of law says it happened.


MCENANY: But instead of fact checking Donald Trump, we should fact check the claims of some of these victims and that's the thing. I don't think it's about Donald Trump. I don't think it's about whether he said this is my friend then and what he's saying now. I think it's about this -- the women who are accusing this man of sexual assault. And I think we owe it to these women to vet their claims, to fact check their claims and not the fact that Donald Trump.


BLOW: I'm sorry. If you make a claim this is what the court of law is built for, right? You make a claim and you have evidence to prove your claim then you should file a charge, go to the court and say this is -- one second.

MCENANY: When we're talking about rape, it's not ...


BLOW: But I'm sorry, but you're asking us in media to provide evidence that the women themselves have not to this point provided to a court of law. That is not the same as saying you said something out of your mouth Mr. Trump that you are now backtracking on in my face. I'm going to have to call you on that number one. Number two, you're saying something that's heavily false, provably false and you're saying of one, two, three, four, five in a row. And you're trying to say I'm so fast that will stand because I won't have time to correct you. That's how we are getting played.

TURNER: But this is it they'll do. I mean, this is it. This is what's happening right now is what is going to be play out through November if those are the two, they have to go head-to-head. And again the American people are going ...

LEMON: So that's your case for Bernie Sanders?

TURNER: ... to be left out. I mean, you know, never let the truth get in the way of a good story and hypocrisy in politics, imagine that.

LEMON: Yeah.

TURNER: You know, that's really what's happening. (CROSSTALK)

[21:20:02] LEMON: I want to get back to you. Hold on Patti.

MCENANY: I'm sorry.

LEMON: Just hold on, hold on. I want to get back to the original question that I asked you. Is he doing this because he knows that she -- they're friends, they were friends and he's like they were friends, that she knows so much more about him that there's so much more ammunition that he's trying to head that off at this point.

MCENANY: I don't think so. I mean, I think he is simply was attacked, it was hurtful, you know, be characterize and ...

LEMON: By a Super PAC.

MCENANY: And by Super PAC but it's the Clinton's Super PAC. I mean, we all say that the Super PAC there's inflation but they take their marching orders by what they see going on by the campaign.

So here's the thing, you know, we -- they attacked him, basically call him a misogynist, basically call him a sexist . Of course he is going to respond. He's not going to do what Mitt Romney did, he's not going to do with John McCain did and not attack, not go on the attack when you yourself are attacked. That is exactly what's happening and we need to fact check -- hey I would love to fact check like you said because we could start with Hillary Clinton and the Clinton Foundation in Benghazi. These things that we don't talk about the media.

LEMON: Right.

MCENANY: We could start there and we find a lot of with these facts here.


BLOW: Even that Super PAC thing as hurtful as it may have been to him and I don't know what hurts this man and what doesn't hurt him and I don't even care, but what they did was they used only his quotes, not a single accusation as to what he was -- what he meant by it, no names to call him, nothing. Just used his quotes and let other people say them. Don't alter them at all. And so -- and what he ...


LEMON: Charles, let's listen to it, let's listen to what you're talking about and then we'll -- you can finish.


TRUMP: You know you can see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her -- wherever. Does she have a good body, no. Does she have a fat ass, absolutely.

You're like her and the five foot one can come up to either where. If Ivanka weren't my daughter, perhaps I'd be dating her.


LEMON: So your question is, how can he take offense to his own words?


BLOW: How can you attack somebody who airs the words that he spoke?

MCENANY: Why don't we play -- why don't we go out and play the ad that he did in response which was claim the words of victims, how is that over the line state the word.

BLOW: You never heard, the first thing when he asked me the question first I said always I prefer get it all out. But once you say it, if you stand up the next day on election which is what you've been say and say he's the worst abuser man in the history of politics ...

LEMON: Woman.

BLOW: Women in the history of politics and basically called the man a rapist, you have to prove that part. That's not what this super ad is doing. It's just saying here's what the man has said over his lifetime. Make up your mind as to whether or not you want this person to be your president.

MCENANY: Some people would think being with a young girl in the Oval Office makes you an abuser of woman. Some people would think that that's over the line. Some people would not like that and think that this is over the line and that is abusive and all of these accusations, it's not one, it's not two, these aren't Republican woman by the way, these are Democrat women who have levied these accusations.

LEWIS: No. I would say if it wasn't for Donald Trump pushing this issue, I don't think the media would be talking about Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton and digging into the past and I think you have a very good point.

I mean, look, President Clinton, the one thing we do know for a fact is the Monica Lewinsky scandal. And this is an example. Who we're talking about work place harassment or people using positions of authority and power, it doesn't get much bigger than the President of the United States -- it doesn't get much more lower than an intern.

DOYLE: And Bill Clinton was impeached for that and he was wrong and I'm not defending his behavior. But he's not on the ballot. Hillary Clinton is on the ballot and she did nothing wrong.


DOYLE: OK. She said that to her best friend in private and then that best friend after her death her husband released the notes to a lot. It wasn't for public consumption. She was, you know, confiding in her best friend. MCENANY: Well, then I agree with you then ...

LEMON: Everybody stay with me. When we come back by and more in our coverage and we're going to continue our conversation. We'll be back.


[21:27:59] LEMON: Back with me now with my political dream team. I cut you off Kayleigh, you were making a point on the other side of the break which was, do you remember?

MCENANY: Oh, I was just going to say I agree with you Patti, that Hillary Clinton was the victim.

DOYLE: Yes, thank you.

MCENANY: There is no denying that. She was cheated on by her husband. Every woman in America can empathize with her on some level there. But there were other victims and I do think that they deserve to be listened to just as much.

LEWIS: But Bill Clinton is going to be part of this administration.


LEWIS: And remember, we're two for one. You get two for one. This is a -- they -- you cannot separate Bill from Hillary. I mean, I get that she is running but it's just really hard to separate the two. It's two for one.

LEMON: Help me understand this. Help me understand this. And, again, as I say as, you know, a victim of sexual abuse should always have their say.



TURNER: Yes, yes.

LEMON: But have they not had their say. I mean, how ...

TURNER: That it never ends. I mean, my god, you know, I have a sister that was raped. I mean, it never ends. And in terms of -- and I do agree with what Kayleigh is saying ...

LEMON: But these are unsubstantiated claims.

TURNER: Unsubstantiated, OK. Well -- but look at those women and especially if we look at Monica Lewinsky, she lost her life, like she had to go into hiding. She was a victim and she went into hiding. Now might that been a way ...

LEMON: No. Listen. I think everyone agrees with you and Monica Lewinsky. And she said that, Monica, everyone just said Monica Lewinsky, that's the real deal. TURNER: But she lost her life.

LEMON: She was in peace. But these other things that are being brought up.

TURNER: Look, I wish they would take a page out of my candidate's book, Senator Bernie Sanders, let's just stick to the gag (ph) go issues baby. I mean, this is what is going to happen. And, again, people are suffering in this country. People who need uplift and help are going to have to tease out who's telling the truth about whose scandal versus the other scandal.

And, you know, we gravitate to this kind of stuff even though people say, oh no, no, no, we want to uplift in campaign. The bottom line is there's psychology connected to when you go negative on somebody, when you put the scandal out there on them, you tend to win these elections. But ...


LEMON: Do they need -- I don't -- I'm sick of hearing about your damn e-mails moment. Do they need that?

TURNER: Yes, they do.

LOUIS: Going negative is really a form of voter suppression. You know, I mean, if you look at the numbers, if you look at the studies of it, what it does is so disgusts people that they say, apex in both their houses, I'm going to stay home. That's really kind of what lies behind it.

[21:30:11] So, if both of them are doing it, well, you know, that doesn't bold well for the democracy.

DOYLE: If Hillary is not Hillary is sticking to the issues or at least she is trying to.

LOUIS: All true they are trying but I mean ...

DOYLE: And no matter who the opponent begin that time

LEMON: Patti?


LEMON: Do you call this as sticking to the issue that businessman. Let's play it.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is an economy that can't find the bottom of bad news.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ten years of saving completely gone, vanished.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The biggest crash of household wealth that we've ever had in the United States.

TRUMP: I should hope that happens because then people like me would go in and buy. If there is a bubble burst as they call it, you know, you can make a lot of money.


LEMON: So, Errol clearly the Clinton campaign isn't waiting to roll out the opposition research on this and the bad businessman.

LOUIS: That at least has like the benefit of edging towards something that could be called substance. I mean with a lot of the rest of this stuff especially re-litigating the Clinton scandals from the '90s, it doesn't fix a school, it doesn't build a road, it doesn't get anybody's job back. It doesn't bring back a fact way from overseeing they do any of that stuff.

In this case she's making a case that is, you know, sort of worth thinking about, what happened in the crash. Who did what and what does that bode for the future and by the way a lot of people are still not back in their homes. A lot of people are still not back in jobs that were paying what they were paying before the crash and so that's the beginning I think of at least a real conversation and hopefully Donald Trump will engage and respond to that.


LEMON: He did respond to this and said, "I am a businessman and I have made a lot of money in down markets, in some cases as much as I've made when markets are good. Frankly, this is the kind of thinking our country needs, understanding how to get a good result out of a bad and sad situation. Politicians have no idea how to do this- they don't have a clue, I will create jobs, bring back companies and not make it easy for companies to leave. If they do, they will fully understand that there will be consequences or our job market will flourish."

Is that an adequate response?

LEWIS: That's a great political response.

BLOW: Right it's not necessarily -- it kind of skips the moral issue here right. I think its not answering towards a real issue with for campaign. It is an absolute issue for campaign.

DOYLE: I agree.

BLOW: Whether or not he paid taxes or what rate he paid taxes on his income tax is a real issue that Americans deserve to know if this is a person who is going to be kind of dealing with how the government ...

LEMON: Hillary Clinton ...


BLOW: This idea of whether or not you profit from other people's paying is a real issue.

LEWIS: It's a great issue and ...


LEMON: Hang on that, hang on that, hang on both of you. I want to play Hillary Clinton talking about taxes today and you can get in.


CLINTON: It may be that he hasn't paid ever any federal income tax. That's why we want to see his tax returns. Everybody else has had to turn over their tax returns who has been the nominee of a party running for president so we're going to keep asking.



LEWIS: You can't expose somebody who isn't hiding anything, you can't shame somebody who is shameless and that's the reason that's why this doesn't work on Donald Trump. He is not Mitt Romney. Donald Trump is of course I didn't pay taxes. I'm not stupid.


LEWIS: He basically he hangs to tangle later on your problem is the political maximum I mean Trump has mastered it. The Hillary Clinton is running I think a 20th century campaign and they're testing things out but I don't think they're there yet.

BLOW: Right.

LEWIS: It's not going to stick to Trump.

BLOW: But half of what you said is true, he is shameless.


BLOW: The second half on what you say it not true, the idea that he doesn't have anything to hide. I think he has a tremendous amount to hide. The idea that he has not released those tax returns and the reason that he gives is actually not legitimate. That is just a fact. You can release while you're under audit. That is just a fact. He can say that he may not want to do it.

LEWIS: Well maybe ...


LEWIS: It could possibly be any other want to hurt of, but not that.


BLOW: The idea that if you have not paid any income tax or if your rate of -- your affected tax rate is so incredibly low that it offends most Americans who are ...

LEWIS: He says of course I didn't pay taxes. I'm very smart at business. In fact I'm going to use my business acumen and put it the work for you the American people.

BLOW: Yeah but ...


LEMON: Hold on -- he's not doing that. So apparently somewhere someone along the way has made the calculation that what's in the income taxes is worse than actually putting them out.

LEWIS: No, no.


MCENANY: Because it -- there doesn't need to be anything. There is need to be anything bad.

BLOW: Yes it does.

TURNER: I mean she should release transcript.

BLOW: Yes she does.


[21:35:05] LEMON: So maybe what's in the transcripts is -- she's been in calculation is she's not worse than?

TURNER: What's in the transcript, because she's saying that, you know, by him not releasing his tax returns something is in there were was back.


LEMON: What if she ends up making more a year than he does or paying a higher tax rate than he does.

MCENANY: Here is a thing he has been audited so many times if there were something unlawfully or something so bad and agree this in their taxes it would have been exposed. But here's the thing ...

DOYLE: And why not release them?

MCENANY: There doesn't have to be anything ...


MCENANY: There's doesn't have to be anything bad in the tax returns. Because here is a thing, Barack Obama said Mitt Romney you must release your tax returns do it, do it, do it. He did it. Barack Obama put out ad thing. This is someone with sweep thinker ...

(CROSSTALK) LEMON: Donald Trump also said Mitt Romney you should release your tax returns as well.

MCENANY: Yes. And then look, he was lambasted for doing things that were entirely legal. Why would Donald Trump, I know he said his release it after the audit, I believe that I think that he would and I don't think he will get.


LEMON: But what -- reduce is not the gunnery. If he wants Mitt Romney to release his tax returns then shouldn't he in turn do the same thing?

MCENANY: No, because something it seems.

LEMON: You can't speak out of both sides of your mouth.

MCENANY: He encouraged him to be transparent and when he was transparent the mass media lambasted and helped Barack Obama essentially by painting Mitt Romney as Mr. 1 percent when he came and I don't pick them.


BLOW: Number one, we don't know how many times he's been audited. We all -- that's what he keep saying. We don't know -- IRS has not because they will never tell us how many times he's been audited. So you can say that he's been audited so many times but that you saying it that his campaign saying it. We have no proof of that at all.

LEMON: Let me take a break and we'll be back right after this.


[21:40:32] LEMON: And we are back, it's in Charles Blow is been on terror here I'm going to read a piece from yesterday Charles you said, whether or not Trump loses in November to "crooked Hillary" as he has dubbed her he may well be an important part of the future of this party. He has given his Republican supporters permission to vocalize their anti-otherness rage and that will not be easily undone. As a Louisiana boy experiencing a confounding sense of deja vu let me assure you there is no way to un-cook the gumbo.

Being a Louisiana boy I understand a little bit and explain that to everybody else.

BLOW: Well, I think that, you know, it's really hard to come back once -- you know if you put the genie back in the bottle -- it's use a better a analysis that more people would get right.

That once you kind of set the stage and give people a chance and normalize a certain kind of behavior, a certain kind of language, a certain kind of political morality that it does not easily just change that even if you lose, because people then have said to themselves I was able to for the first time in my life maybe say the things that I had on my heart, the pain that I was experiencing I was able to express it and this person gave me the right to do that.

And now they start to search for the next person who will not only give them the right to express it, but can -- and win the election, I think that's going to happen with Bernie I think that would Trump, I think that's going to happen with Bernie. I think there a lot of people on the Democratic side have said this has given me a right to vocalize.


LEWIS: Some is good and bad. Some is good and bad.

Trump has created a permission structure and expanded the over and window, I think some of these really good right. So there are things that are like taboo's and politically incorrect things that you couldn't say before that now you can, some of that's good but we're seeing the rise of what's called the alt-right white identity politics in some cases white nationalists.

I'm saying things -- it's totally anecdotal but things on Twitter being said about Jewish people, about African-Americans from the alt- right and I would not confuse them with mainstream conservatives that is incredibly disturbing and it's coming about because of Donald Trump's candidacy. You can't blame him.


LEWIS: Well and be careful but it's a correlation.

TURNER: Yeah, I don't think you should be -- I am as a leader he's responsible for how he amps that kind of stuff up but my big fear is this kind of late in boom if it's real and so this is what America. We don't want to confess our sins that racism is still very much a part of the DNA of America and because Mr. Trump has exposed that it's easy ...

LEWIS: I don't think he's exposing though that ...

TURNER: But it's easy to just put point a finger at him instead of the -- this people are expressing what is already naturally in them.

LEMON: Go ahead Kayleigh.

MCENANY: I mean I think you're absolutely right there's no denying that racism exists absolutely but I just don't think that Donald Trump is responsible for the rise of this and I think that there are crazy people out there awful people whose voices are not welcome into society, but I don't think ...


LEWIS: This isn't just exposing some, you know, red neck white supremacist somewhere in the south. There is an alt-right movement and it's a young almost a hipster thing, there's a hair do they have call like the fichier (ph) or something it's like a fasciatus thing. I mean -- he is like sort of a normalizing let me say Trump is but they are normalizing this behavior.


LEMON: Go on. Keep talking.

LEWIS: Well I think it's really concerning and the danger ...

LEMON: I'm surprised that the number of young people who are seen as not really progressive left but young people who are sort of going into this.

LEWIS: The dangers is not there mainstreaming it, they're basically saying hey we should be victims too if there's you know if there is a Negro college fund or African-American groups, we could -- what's wrong with having a white pride group and they're using technology and means and videos and they're actually even co-opting like Taylor Swift as this perfect area and image. It's really scary and I would get it's anecdotal a lot of it is on Twitter. Maybe its ...


LEMON: With someone who is like that and he will say I have black and Hispanic friends, I have gay and lesbian friends, I have transgender friends but I still feel this way and they don't understand some of their comments and their thinking and their beliefs are still racist homophobic, Islamaphobic and not to mention ...


[21:45:07] LEWIS: Jodie Ayafti (ph) who wrote that piece was for GQ or Esquire or whatever and she was in evaded from -- by anti-Semitic attacks online and its stuff with -- this is always sort have been around.

LEMON: Yeah.

LEWIS: But, you -- something new is ...

LEMON: Is it fair to blame on, is it fair to blame on Donald Trump?

LOUIS: Yeah. Some -- look, some of it does need to be blamed upon him, frankly.

You know, when the head of the Ku Klux Klan says, I like Donald Trump and he plays this ridiculous comedy saying, well, I didn't hear the question, my ear piece was broken. It was foolishness, right.

So, we know that there's a problem there. And then, the next clan leader, and then the next clan leader and they're all sort of, you know, indicating that they want this guy to win, that something that has to be sort of taken very seriously.

Now, do you blame him for that? No. But, I mean, I think when it comes to this question of normalization, the beauty of this, the thing that we all have to remember is you can sort of set it back depending on what happens in the context of the rest of us between now and November 8th.

Not just the vote, but the way the media portrays this the way we have the discussion with our neighbors, the way we sort of, you know, make this whole thing work. The way it works is to rely on your institutions. And everybody has to do their jobs.


LEWIS: That's it for the larger conversation of conservative, because this is part of the danger that main stream conservatives could be conflated with this all dry sort of image.

BLOW: Exactly. But -- and you have to remember this about all strong men, all people who have kind of lead movements that turned out to be really horrible face.

Your primary motivating factor does not have to be malice, but if you give space under your umbrella to people who are motivated by malice and you do not make a stand and say, you will not be welcomed here. I know that you have a vote and there are only two parties. But you are not welcome here. I don't care if you stay home, but we are going to have you here.


LEMON: I said this to Kayleigh and I don't know if you respond to this, Kayleigh. I've said this to Kayleigh before. You cannot, you know, you can't determine who supports you. That's fine, that's your business.

But you can control your response. If you are that way, if you engage in that sort of behavior, if you are racist or homophobic or any of these things, I do not want your support. They're not the kind of person I want to support in the bank. Go ahead.

He did not denounce. It was not a strong denouncement of the KKK.

MCENANY: Many times their effort denouncing none of us is here. None of us ...

LEMON: He's denouncing what. So I denounce, I denounce. OK. So, I denounce. So, in that moment it says a lot about who you are. Go ahead.

DOYLE: But what about I do blame him not for all of that, but for much of it. I mean, he came out and said that Mexicans -- I'm a Mexican, a rapists and drug dealers and criminals.

He came out and said Muslims are not welcome in this country. I mean, of course he's responsible for much of this.


LEMON: Kayleigh, Kayleigh, Kayleigh, I give you the first word on the outside, I'm sorry. I have to take a break, I'm really sorry. We'll be right back. Don't go anywhere. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:51:48] LEMON: Back now to give Kayleigh a proper chance to respond. Kayleigh, you said, you know, it's not fair to blame Donald Trump for at least exposing some of these things. But to be fair, don't you think if he was, you know, a little bit more diligent in his denouncement in some of the things that he many actually win more people over instead of alienated people?

MCENANY: I think he's going surprise you. I think he's going to win a greater proportion of the African-American vote than Mitt Romney did. And I think that the media has done, you know, a disservice by painting a caricature of Trump. Some pundits, who simplify his policies, try to call him a racist, a misogynist, a homophobe, he's none of those things and that's what he works it by African-American people. He was one of the first employers to high women in his industry. This is not one who was any of those things. And he represents the viable point of view 11 million people, more than that, have turned out and voted for him. They are not racist, they are not misogynists, they are supporters who support him for what he stands for, he does not stand for any of those things.

LEMON: Do you think he would have been stronger in some of his denouncements like the KKK thing. I mean, let's be honest, it did seemed flimsy. Like he could have been a little bit more forth coming.

MCENANY: He came out many times thereafter and denounced David Duke. I don't know what happened into here I think that if irresponsible for any of us to assume, I had three earpiece malfunctions in the course of a month after that. It happens. And I think for any of us to presume that something did not happen and he is just a racist, I think it's unfair.


LEWIS: I think part of the thing ...

MCENANY: No, you haven't.

LEWIS: I think part of the thing that some of these folks see in Trump, that they like in him, it's not his policies or even things he says about, you know, Mexicans or whatever, it's that he appears to be an authoritarian strong man. And they like that. The demagoguery, the sort of the populist pandering that he does resonates with authoritarians.

BLOW: Right. I think you can say that. Kayleigh, I do not think you can say, however, I mean as a person who makes his living with writing words, I don't know how else you define nativism or misogyny or racism. If you are saying that none of the things that we have collected over 30 years of Donald Trump saying out of his own mouth qualify as any of those things. If you're saying that none of what he has said qualifies him as a bona fide misogynist, then you do not understand the definition of misogyny. I'm sorry. If you're saying that some that some of the things that he has said, including about all people, black people included, saying, I don't want black people counting my money. Right? You never heard of that? I will send you that one to you.

MCENANY: Charles, I have said something ...

BLOW: If you're telling me that does not qualify as racism, you don't understand the definition of racism.

MCENANY: I have said he needs to apologize for some of the things he's said in the 1990s with regard to women. I have said that. But I think it's a very heavy charge to call someone that. I think that is one of the worst labels someone could ever have and one of the heaviest accusation.

BLOW: If you don't want to be called ...


LEMON: Let her respond Charles.

MCENANY: Charles, he has hired many black people. I've seen personal videos, they're out online, of people who have worked for him and say, he's nothing but kind to me, he's been nothing but a grateful boss and nice person to work for. These are African-American people he employed. And I think it's a heavy accusation to call him that it's one of the worst words.


[21:55:01] LEMON: Let me say something, hang on, hang on, let me say something. Fine, everybody needs a job, right? I'm not denying that. But then to say, you know, to say what he said about the guys in central park, and to say about the president and needing to release his birth certificate, painting the president as other. Many people of color see that as racist. He did not do that with anyone else.

He said that anyone releases his birth certificate ..


MCENANY: He did. Ted Cruz, a white guy, he accused him of ...

LEMON: If he releases his birth certificate, then I release my tax returns.

MCENANY: That's a perfect example. The birther movement. He levied the same accusations against Ted Cruz. I don't think either of them are viable, but to say that's he's racist for having us ...

LEWIS: He's an equal opportunity offender.

MCENANY: But and that can't be used as evidence of racism. He is a good person and I think he represents the viable point of view in the ... LEWIS: Not evidence of a good person, either though, but he is basically attacks everybody.

BLOW: I'm from the south. A whole lot of people down there hired black people. And that had nothing to do with what they felt about black people. Right? This idea of using his employment history as to whether or not he hired somebody of a different race as disqualifying of the idea that you could hold an antagonistic view of that person or people who look like that in general is just a false equivalent ...

LEMON: We will be right back.

MCENANY: It's their account.


LEMON: Trust me, everyone, we're not beating up on Kayleigh. She is strong, she can take it, she's used to it. We really like Kayleigh. So stop it, Kayleigh is good everyone. Thanks, that's it for tonight.

[22:00:03] Thank you so much for watching, I'll see you right back here tomorrow night.

Right now I want to turn things over to my colleagues, Wolf Blitzer and Jake Tapper in "AMERICA'S CHOICE 2016", an election special. Take it away guys.