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"The Greatest" Dead At 74; Reactions To Ali's Death Flood Social Media; Trump Interview. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired June 4, 2016 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: -- in 2005, a legacy to Muhammad Ali and all he stood for, all he worked for. People have been coming -- it has been a down pour here over the last few minutes so you can't see people behind me right now, but a few minutes ago, this was a full.

You can see the flowers here, balloons. People writing notes. Inside there are all kinds of people. I met a man from San Diego who is in Cincinnati and when he heard the news that Muhammad Ali, he drove an hour and a half to be here this morning. Got here an hour ago. He just felt like he had to be here for this.

It means so much to so many people here, the world truly mourning the loss of Muhammad Ali who died overnight at the age of 74 from Parkinson's disease. He was hospitalized on Thursday with a respiratory issue and passed away last night.

His hometown here in Louisville feeling it hard. The mayor lowered the flags to half-staff for the man simply known as the greatest here. This morning, the mayor spoke honoring the hometown hero's achievement both as a fighter and a humanitarian.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR GREG FISCHER, LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY: Muhammad Ali lived a life so big and bold, it is hard to believe that any one man could do everything he did, to do all the things he became in the course of just one lifetime.

This man, this champion, this Louisvillian, ended his 74 years yesterday as a United Nations messenger of peace, a humanitarian and champion athlete who earned Amnesty International's Lifetime Achievement Award, the presidential Medal of Freedom, "Sports Illustrated" Sportsman of the Century.

He was co-founder with his beloved wife, Lonnie, of the Muhammad Ali Center, which promotes respect, hope, and understanding here in his hometown of Louisville and around the world.

Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr., born January 17th, 1942 to Cassius Senior and Odessa Grady Clay. Imagine that day, that little boy, eyes wide open looking around the room at the old Louisville General Hospital, not knowing the life that awaited him, the life he would make.

The world he would shake up and the people he would inspire. Like you, I'm absolutely one of those people. Muhammad Ali belongs to the world, but he only has one hometown.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Muhammad Ali belongs to the world. This morning, an outpouring of emotion from all over the world. President Obama put out this statement this morning, saying, "Muhammad Ali shook up the world and the world is better for it. We are all better for it."

I have to say you can tell the president wrote this himself. A very long, very heartfelt message. Similar thought pouring in from all around the world.

U.S. Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon tweeted this morning, "Muhammad Ali was a world champion of equality and peace #messengerofpeace."

And just a few minutes ago, we got a statement from former president, George W. Bush. He said, I gave Ali, the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2005 and wondered how he stayed so pretty through so many fights. It probably had to do with his beautiful soul.

That's what President George W. Bush wrote. So many people weighing in this morning because Muhammad Ali touched them all so personally.

I want to talk more about this with a man who wrote about Muhammad Ali. Joining us by phone is Thomas Hauser, author of the book "Muhammad Ali, His Life and Times."

Thomas, thanks so much for being with us. I have to say inside the Muhammad Ali Center, I just saw your book prominently displayed. You worked so hard describing everything he did in his life.

The motto of the center that I'm standing at is, be great, do great things. How does that sum up the life of Muhammad Ali?

THOMAS HAUSER, AUTHOR, "MUHAMMAD ALI: HIS LIFE AND TIMES" (via telephone): That sums Ali's life up very nicely although I have to say the Ali Center is a wonderful endeavor. But Ali's greatest legacy can't really be captured in bricks and mortar.

Ali was a spirit and he moved very deeply into hearts and souls, not just in the United States but throughout the world have. All of us carry some of Muhammad Ali in us.

BERMAN: So many of the things he said represent different things to different people all over the world. Again, I was just inside there. There is a whole display about respect. I will not be what you want me to be. I will be what I want to be, he said. I'm mostly paraphrasing there. That is what he did. He was what he wanted to be for 74 years and sometimes that was controversial.

HAUSER: Sure. There was a point in time when Ali was not only one of the most loved people in America, but also one of the most hated.

[12:05:10]Young people know that Muhammad Ali stood up for his principles, but they don't really understand what those principles were. It was an extraordinary journey. He moved from adhering to a religion that taught that white people were devils created by an evil scientist with a big head to an embrace of orthodox of Islam, and the idea that hearts and minds and souls know no color.

Along the way, he was a beacon of hope for oppressed people around the world when he refused induction into the army during the height of the war in Vietnam. He stood up to the principle that unless you have a very good reason for killing people. War is wrong.

But I think that his greatest contribution to humanity was that there was an aura of pure good will and love about him. By his example, he taught a lot of people how to love.

BERMAN: Is that how he wants to be remembered? Is that what he considered his greatest contribution, you know, three heavyweight titles, being a spokesman against the war in the '60s or did he want to be known as a messenger of love?

HAUSER: Well, Muhammad had quite an ego so I'm sure among other things, he would like to be remembered as the greatest fighter of all time. But certainly, in the end, it was more important to him that people love him and that he loved people.

And what he would like his lasting legacy to be, I'm sure, would be one of teaching people how to be to tolerant and understanding of others and teaching people to love and respect each other.

If we can all take this period of mourning and celebration and turn it into a time where we teach that lesson, then Muhammad Ali's life would have been particularly well-spent.

You know, you mentioned Barack Obama earlier in this telecast. I have to think that one of the reasons that the American people were willing to elect an African-American president with a strange-sounding name in 2008 was that along the way we learned how to embrace and love Muhammad Ali.

BERMAN: Thomas Hauser, author of "Muhammad Ali: His Life and Times." Thanks so much for helping us get a better sense of the man, the man who did so much and means so much to so many people around the world. Fred, back to you.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: All right, John, look, you know, despite the rain there, that is not keeping people away as folks file behind you there. We can see the placement of the flowers despite the rain in memory of Muhammad Ali. We'll check back with you, John. Thank you so much from Louisville.

Still ahead, Muhammad Ali's impact beyond the boxing ring. Particularly on civil rights.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MUHAMMAD ALI: I'm talking about me. All of you white boys are breaking your neck to get to Canada and run. I'm not going to help nobody get something the Negro's don't have. If someone were to die, I would die right now in fighting you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:11:59]

WHITFIELD: Welcome back. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. So Muhammad Ali shot to fame and fortune as a boxer. His legacy outside the ring will have a lasting impact for so many people around the world.

Ali's work as a civil rights activist, advocate for religious tolerance and humanitarian efforts is what makes him a hero to so many legions of fans. Joining me right to talk about this is Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed. Good to see you.

MAYOR KASIM REED, ATLANTA: Good to see you, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: This is a tough day particularly for those who were touched directly by Muhammad Ali. I can see you that are feeling that weight of sadness for the passing of Ali.

REED: Yes, I do. I mean, I think for my generation and so many other people, we didn't have a President Barack Obama. For my generation, in terms of exemplars, people of high achievement, high integrity, Muhammad Ali, beyond my dad, my brothers and my mom, were there for me.

And I think that when you go in the offices, you and I were just reflecting on that across the United States. In so many offices certainly in the offices of black men, somewhere there is a photo of Muhammad Ali because of the power of his example.

I guess about maybe six, eight weeks ago, I had the pleasure to be in Johannesburg, South Africa, at the Nelson Mandela Memorial where his private office was up until the time of his death.

And here's a person who certainly changed the world and among the most important objects in his office was a book with Muhammad Ali and a photograph of Muhammad Ali that literally sat right behind his chair.

So it just goes to show you the levels and layers of his influence and so today is a really hard day. I also think that in terms of our city, we were the city in 1970 that gave Muhammad Ali a license.

There was a senator named Leroy Johnson, a black senator, whose portrait hangs in the Georgia State capital who worked with the governor and the leaders at the capital to get him licensed after three and a half years that were taken from him because he refused to fight in the Vietnam War.

And then you come back full circle 20 years later when the leaders of our centennial Olympic games made what I thought was the best decision that could have possibly been made when he lit the centennial Olympic torch. WHITFIELD: That was a beautiful surprise. I was at that opening ceremony, and what a surprise to hear the audience erupt in excitement when they saw Muhammad Ali. There were little rumor that maybe. But then there were people said, that's not going to happen, but it did. That really was something that set the tone for those Olympic games too in Atlanta.

REED: I think it is one of the best secrets that Atlanta has ever kept. I actually got a ticket to the opening ceremony. It was breathtaking when he lit the torch.

[12:15:03]So I believe that the city in our own small way will always have a relationship and a link to the memory of this extraordinary man.

WHITFIELD: Even President Barack Obama, you know, reminded us, when you talk about pictures and mementos, something about Muhammad Ali in so many offices, the gloves of Muhammad Ali hanging there in the White House. The president spoke about that in his statement today and the impact, worldwide of Muhammad Ali.

So everyone has a different idea as to why Muhammad Ali resonated. What's your personal thought on why he touched you so personally and why his image is just bigger than life?

REED: Fredricka, the power of example is so important. As you know from being in a very competitive field, seeing someone who accomplishes amazing things, seeing someone who says something and then backs it up really is the power of example. You can apply it in a wide array of fields.

So that's what he represented to me. When I was thinking about him this morning, there is a quote that I love. It says, if any man had wings and could fly, it would be you. I think about Muhammad Ali when I think about that quote.

But I also think about a black man during the time that he lived making bold pronouncements, living his convictions, paying a high price financially.

WHITFIELD: He put everything on the line knowing he was putting it all on the line.

REED: Three and a half years out of the ring, the highest paid athlete in the world at the time. But for some intervention, the Supreme Court probably would have allowed him to go to jail.

Senator Oren Hatch talks about the importance of Muhammad Ali. He really did cross the political and the racial spectrum. I think it was because of his excellence. There is part a part of all of us that wants to be special.

I think that's why everybody is attracted a part of his personality and why there is so much grief that you're seeing today. He also showed to be great, you don't have to be perfect. So much of life is about direction. And you look at the trajectory of his life, it really is quite amazing. Muhammad Ali said, if you are the same person at age 50, that you were at age 20, then you have wasted 30 years. I could go on and on about why he meant so much to me.

I have been sharing stories with people across the country about their own moment and what he meant to them. In Atlanta, at the St. Regis Hotel, an event for Emory was where I actually got to meet him and talk to him.

We were just talking about it. I walked up to him. He said, you are the mayor of Atlanta. I said, yes, sir. He said, young. I said, yes, sir. He said, that's good.

WHITFIELD: What a moment.

REED: I'll remember it for the rest of my life.

WHITFIELD: A day of profound sadness at the same time, with stories and anecdotes like this, it also helps people really celebrate an incredibly rich life that Muhammad Ali left. Thanks so much, Mayor Kasim Reed.

REED: Fredricka, thank you for the honor of letting me acknowledge his memory and his good work.

WHITFIELD: Thank you so much. Of course, our condolences are going out to the family as they continue to be flooded with sentiment as beautifully put as yours and from really all over the world. Thanks so much.

All right, still ahead, more on Ali's impact on race in this country. The Reverend Jesse Jackson will be joining us right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:23:12]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAILA ALI, FORMER WORLD CHAMPION BOXER: He is such a great man. He has been through so much in his life. People have gone through it. They have so much love for him, who he is as a person, no matter how great he was in the athlete. There will always be another great athlete. There will never be another Muhammad Ali, who he was as a man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: That was Muhammad Ali's daughter, Laila, from a CNN interview back in 2012. She posted on Facebook just hours before her father's death, writing, "I love this photo of my father and my daughter, Sydney, when she was baby. Thanks for all the love and well-wishes. I feel your love and appreciate it." That from Laila Ali. We also got this reaction from Ali's daughter, Hanna Ali, tweeting that her father was a, quote, "humble mountain." And now he has gone home to God, God bless you, Daddy. You are the love of my life.

Muhammad Ali's official Twitter page posted simply, "Muhammad Ali, 1942-2016."

Our Jessica Schneider is in New York with more reaction. So Jessica, he was loved by so many, not just family but countless celebrities and global figures and ordinary folks and the like. What are they saying?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: All around, Fredricka, people around the world noting that Muhammad Ali, he transcended sports. He was known not just for his athleticism but also for his cultural impact, outspokenness, and his kindness.

The actor, Michael J. Fox, teamed up with Ali after Fox revealed that he too suffered from Parkinson's disease. He wrote this today, "Ali, the greatest of all time, a giant in inspiration, a man of peace, a warrior for the cure. Thank you."

Members of the Beatles met with Ali for the first time when they were in Miami for their first American tour back in 1964. Today Sir Paul McCartney writing, "Dear Muhammad Ali, I loved that man. He was great from the first day we met him in Miami and on the numerous occasions when I ran into him over the years.

[12:25:10]Besides being the greatest boxer, he was a beautiful, gentle man with a great sense of humor, who would often pull a pack of cards out of his pocket, no matter how posh the occasion, and do a card trick for you. The world has lost a truly great man, love Paul.

A long Facebook post from basketball great, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, including a photo right here and the line, Muhammad willingly sacrificed the best years of his career to stand tall and fight for what he believed was right.

In doing so, he made all Americans, black and white. Stand taller. I may have 7'2" but I never felt taller than when standing in his shadow."

And then there were these words from Oprah, "The world has lost a legend and real champion, #ripmuhammadali." And Fredricka, that is just a sampling of the outpouring all over the world and online.

WHITFIELD: Gosh, he touched so many. All right, Jessica Schneider, thank you so much.

All right, up next, Muhammad Ali's legacy and his stinging jabs, both inside and outside the ring.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MUHAMMAD ALI: My intention is to box, to win a clean fight. In war, the attention is to kill, kill, kill, and continue killing innocent people. (END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:30:58] FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello again and thank you so much for joining me in this special program. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm John Berman outside the Muhammad Ali Center in Louisville, Kentucky. Fred, I wish you could see what I've seen here. Yes, there's the memorial behind me with flowers and notes here. But the people who've been coming here all morning, you can't see them now because it's been pouring rain. I've never seen a group of people so diverse, from kids, babies, to people who must be in their 80s. You know, white, black, all races here. You know, sometimes we say -- we use the term diversity as a cliche. But this has been extraordinary to see the people coming out to mourn the loss of Muhammad Ali. He meant so much to so many people and in different ways, I think as well. He passed away last night at the age of 74 after a long battle with Parkinson's disease.

In Ali's hometown here in Louisville, you can see people coming here, the memorial behind me with the flowers and notes. The Muhammad Ali center was built in 2005 to honor his legacy and everything he stands for. "Be great and do great things," it says.

The city honored Muhammad Ali known simply as the greatest by lowering a flag at metro hall to half-staff in a short ceremony this morning. Muhammad Ali's life and career captured in so many iconic photos. We have one here to show you, one he predicted would take five rounds to knock out British boxer, Henry Cooper, in 1963. Guess what? It came out to be true and the fight was stopped in the fifth round there in 1963. This photo is Muhammad Ali with his daughters, Leila and Hanna, that's in London in December of 1979. Hanna tweeted, a humble mountain, she considered her father.

Some of the other thoughts on Tweeter from the family, his daughter, Rashidah Ali said, "The greatest man that ever lived, daddy, my best friend and hero. You are no longer suffering. You are now in a better place." Our Wolf Blitzer has a look at Muhammad Ali's life and remarkable boxing career.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MUHAMMAD ALI, LEGENDARY BOXER: I took out the world. I took out the world.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Shook it up like no athlete before or since. Born Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr. in 1942, Muhammad Ali first put on a pair of boxing gloves at age 12. And six years later burst on the scene as the brash but incredibly talented champion at the 1960 Olympics. He star and voice rising as he turned pro, Ali stepped up against Sonny Liston for the heavyweight title four years later.

ALI: It's going to be hard. It's going to take a dead man to whoop me. You look at me, I'm loaded with confidence. I can't be beat. I've had 180 amateur fights, 22 professional fights, and I'm pretty as a girl.

BLITZER: When Liston could not answer the bell for round 7, Cassius Clay had arrived.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come here. Come here, come here, champ.

ALI: I'm the greatest fighter that ever lived.

BLITZER: But almost as quickly as he arrived, Cassius Clay was gone. After joining the nation of Islam in 1964, Clay changed his name to Muhammad Ali. He criticized U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War and refused induction into the army as a Muslim and as a conscious objector. The year was 1967, Ali was sentenced to five years in prison, which he never served and was stripped of his heavyweight championship and suspended from boxing for three years.

The U.S. Supreme court reversed his conviction in 1971. Ali's undefeated record as a professional came to an end in '71 when he lost to Joe Frazier in 15 rounds. It was the first of three fights with Smokin' Joe culminating the famous Thrilla in Manila which Ali won by a technical knockout after the 14th round.

After two decades of redefining the heavyweight devision, Ali retired with a ring record of 56 victories and just five defeats. In1984, he was diagnosed with suffering from Parkinsons syndrome. But will over time, Ali's voice was quieted. His spirit was not.

[12:35:01] He provided one of the emotional high points of the 1996 Summer Olympic Games in Atlanta. When, with trembling hands he lit the Olympic cauldron.

In 2005, Ali joined the distinguished company of people like former President Jimmy Carter and Pope John II as a winner of the Presidential Medal of Freedom, country's highest civilian award. Muhammad Ali, one of the most charismatic figures in sports history and he knew it.

ALI: I am the greatest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: One of the most charismatic figures in history period, I think it is safe to say. Certainly, 20th, 21st century history at this point, had such an impact all around the world, particularly in the world of sports. Muhammad Ali paved the way for generation, multiple generations of African-American athletes. I just came from the NBA finals. I was in Oakland, the home of the Golden State Warriors where he was watching the NBA finals there. I had a chance to speak with former NBA all star Steve Smith to talk about what Muhammad Ali meant to him in his generation of athletes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: John Berman here alongside Steve Smith on the floor at Oracle Arena, side of the NBA finals, you know, we're here covering the finals. But the whole sports world, the whole world in fact this weekend thinking about Muhammad Ali.

And Steve, you had a chance to meet him on several occasions. That first time, what was that like?

STEVE SMITH, CNN SPORT: John, I was speechless because he was Muhammad Ali, the greatest boxer of all time. But more than that, the social activist. And you talk about getting a chance to be in his presence. I couldn't get words out. I had so much I want to ask him. And for him just to take the time to talk to me. I was in college. I mean I felt like a little kid. I mean I was obviously a youngster.

But Muhammad Ali was one of those guys I looked up and read about. To get a chance to see all the work he had done off the field, as far as the athletic field and obviously a big fan. The greatest athlete of all time in my opinion. So, Muhammad Ali is one of those guys that had me speechless and still has me speechless.

BERMAN: You know, you throw around superlatives. It's force in life. You know, we throw around superlatives a lot. But when you're talking about Muhammad Ali, you get the sense they are not excessive, because he meant so much inside the ring and outside the ring. You know, if there is one thing, one lesson he taught you, what would it be?

SMITH: Well, I think for me is just the way he went about life and the way he cared about others. I mean, obviously, he was a showman. But I think for me is Ali cared about others and obviously the way he went about it. And he stood he had much passion for it. So that's one thing I'll take for him.

BERMAN: As an African-American athlete, what's the significance to you?

SMITH: I think what significance for me is that he stood up for the race and obviously and put his career in jeopardy to stand up for the race.

BERMAN: All right, Steve Smith, thanks so much.

SMITH: Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Steve Smith almost could not imagine a world without Muhammad Ali. He really got very quiet, almost choked up talking about him. Really interesting to hear those words. Our special coverage on the greatest, the passing of Muhammad Ali continues after this. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ED BRADLEY, FORMER CBS JOURNALIST: He's not putting on when he's doing this?

LONNIE ALI, MUHAMMAD ALI'S WIFE: No. This actually happens. And the doctor told us not to really try to wake him if that does happen because he might end up with a heart attack because it might frighten him. So I don't. I just get up and move. That's the hard part. You have to sort of...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:42:50] WHITFIELD: Welcome back. In politics now, Donald Trump taking his attacks on the federal judge hearing the lawsuit against Trump University to new levels. CNN Jake Tapper sat down with the presumptive Republican nominee and pressed him on the issue of temperament.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Hillary Clinton was giving a speech. She had some very tough things to say about you. One of the things she said ...

DONALD TRUMP, PRESUMPTIVE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE: She wasn't giving. She was reading a speech that was written by other people, OK, but go ahead.

TAPPER: OK.

TRUMP: Sound bytes.

TAPPER: One of the things she said was, this is not someone who should have the nuclear codes. It's not hard to imagine Donald Trump leading us into war because someone got under his very thin skin. What's your response to that?

TRUMP: Well, first of all, I don't have thin skin. I have very strong, very thick skin. And when somebody is right about me, I always, you know, if you do a report and it's not necessarily positive but you are right, I never complain. I do complain when it's a lie or when it's wrong.

But I have a strong temperament and it's a very good temperament, and it's a very incontrol temperament or I wouldn't have built this unbelievable company, I wouldn't have built all of the things that I've been able to do in life. I've been number one best sellers, one of the best selling books of all time, tremendous television success.

TAPPER: I don't think ...

TRUMP: I've been success -- well, wait a minute, Jake. I've been successful in every business I've been in, if you think, real estate, one of the most successful, television, "The Apprentice" which is -- forget it. I mean NBC came to me. They wanted to renew so badly, you have no idea.

TAPPER: What does that have to do with temperament? You've very successful.

TRUMP: You can't have that success without good temperament. And I will say this, I was thinking about the word temperament. And we need a strong temperament in this country. We have been led by weak people, weak ineffective people. Countries have taken advantage of us, whether it's militarily or otherwise. We have been taken advantage of by everybody. We have people with weak temperaments. I have a very strong temperament. But I have a temperament that's totally under control.

And, you know, she mentions that I'll bring us into war. She is the one that wanted to go into Iraq. I mean she raised her hand. She know what the hell she was doing. She raised her hand. I said, I don't want to go into Iraq. Iraq is gong to destabilized the Middle East and I was 100 percent right.

TAPPER: I want to ask you about the comments you made about the judge in the Trump ...

TRUMP: Sure.

TAPPER: ... University case.

TRUMP: Sure.

TAPPER: You said that you thought it was a conflict of interest that he is the judge because he is of Mexican heritage even though he's from Indiana.

TRUMP: OK.

[12:45:07] TAPPER: Hillary Clinton said that is a racist attack on a federal judge.

TRUMP: She is so wonderful, you know what I mean? She's a woman that should be put in jail for what she did with her e-mails and she's commenting. Let me just tell you. Let me just tell you.

First of all, I have a case where thousands of people have take this course and thousands and thousands of people have said great reviews, great reviews. Fortunately, just about everything that took the courses have signed a review, an evaluation, they call it. And it has gotten tremendous marks. Thousands -- I don't mean like two people. I mean thousands.

TAPPER: Right.

TRUMP: I have a situation where the woman that brought the case, brought the case. She was the plaintiff. She was opposed. She was found to be a disaster for them as a witness, because she gave an evaluation that was like the best evaluation you've ever heard, wait just one second.

TAPPER: OK.

TRUMP: And she did a tape like from your camera saying that the school was fantastic. It was fantastic. They went to the judge and they said, your honor, we don't want her anyone to be our plaintiff. So we said, let's dismiss the case. That's OK. Let's dismiss the case. And he said, no, I won't dismiss the case and she doesn't have to be our plaintiff. TAPPER: What is has do to with heritage?

TRUMP: I'll tell you what is had to do.

I've had ruling after ruling after ruling that has been bad rulings, OK? I've been treated very unfairly. Before him, we have another judge. If that judge was still there, this case would have been over two years ago. Let me just tell you, I have had horrible rulings. I've been treated very unfairly by this judge. Now, this judge is Mexican heritage. I'm building a wall, OK? I'm building a wall. I am going to do very well with the Hispanics, the Mexicans.

TAPPER: No Mexican judge could be involved in a case that involves you?

TRUMP: Well, he's a member of a society where, you know, very pro Mexico and that's fine. It's all fine.

TAPPER: You are calling into his heritage, because he is Latino.

TRUMP: I think he should excuse himself.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Does he know the lawyer on the other side? I mean does he know the lawyer, you know.

TAPPER: I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about ...

TRUMP: That's another problem.

TAPPER: But you are invoking his race when talking about whether or not he can do his job.

TRUMP: Jake, I'm building a wall, OK? I'm building a wall. I'm trying to keep business out of Mexico. Mexico is fine. There's nothing ...

TAPPER: But he's an American.

TRUMP: He's a Mexican heritage and he is very proud of it as I am where I come from.

TAPPER: But he's an American. You keep talking about conflict of interest because of Mexico.

TRUMP: Jake, you ready? I have a case that should have been dismissed already. I have thousands of people saying Trump University is fantastic, OK? I have case that should have been dismissed. I have a judge that never, ever gives over -- now we lose the plaintiff. He lets the plaintiff of the case out. So why isn't he canceling the case? So we thought we won the case.

TAPPER: So you disagree with his rulings. I totally understand it.

TRUMP: I had lawyers come up to me and say, you are being treated so unfairly. It's unbelievable. Do you know the plaintiffs in the case have said wonderful things about the school? You know why they are suing? They want to get their money back.

TAPPER: I don't really want to litigate the case of Trump University.

TRUMP: You have to. If he was giving me fair rulings, I wouldn't say that.

TAPPER: My question is -- yes?

TRUMP: Jake, if you were giving me fair rulings, I wouldn't be talking to you this way. He's giving me horrible rulings.

TAPPER: But I don't care if you criticize him. That's fine. You can criticize every decision. What I'm saying is if you invoke his race as a reason why he can't do his job.

TRUMP: I think that's why he is doing it. I think that's why he is doing it.

TAPPER: When Hillary Clinton says it is a racist attack.

TRUMP: Hillary Clinton is a stiff. If Hillary Clinton become president ...

TAPPER: Paul Ryan today said he didn't care for the way you were attacking this judge.

TRUMP: Look, I'm just telling you, Paul Ryan doesn't know the case. Here's the story.

TAPPER: Isn't it ...

TRUMP: I should have won this case on summary judgment. This is a case I should have won on summary judgment. Do you know the law firm paid Hillary Clinton hundreds of thousands of dollars to make speeches? Do you know the law firm ...

TAPPER: I do. We have recorded it on my show.

TRUMP: I'm glad. You are the only one. Wait a minute. The law firm paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to Hillary Clinton to speeches.

TAPPER: Before either of you were running for president, they did. But here's the fundamental question.

TRUMP: Do you know that they have contributed tremendous amounts of money to her campaign?

TAPPER: Yes.

TRUMP: Do you know they have contributed a lot of money to Eric Schneiderman the New York Attorney General.

TAPPER: Here's my question.

TRUMP: No, no. Do you know that?

TAPPER: I did not know that.

TRUMP: Do you know that these people went to every attorney general practically in the country that they could and you know this case was turned down by almost every Attorney General from Texas to Florida to many of these states?

TAPPER: Is it not what Hillary Clinton says this is a racist attack and you reject that, if you are saying he can't do his job because of his race, is that not the definition of racism?

TRUMP: No, I don't think so at all.

TAPPER: No?

TRUMP: No. He is proud of his heritage. I respect him for that.

TAPPER: But you said he can't do his job because of it.

TRUMP: Look, he's proud of his heritage, OK? I am building a wall. Now, I think I'm going to do very well ...

TAPPER: He's a legal citizen ...

TRUMP: You know why I'm going to do well with the Hispanics because I'm going to bring back jobs and t hey going to get jobs right now. They're going to get jobs. I think I'm going to do very well with Hispanics. But, we'll building a wall. He's a Mexican. We'll building a wall between here and Mexico. The answer is, he is giving us very unfair rulings, rulings that people can't even believe. This case should have ended years ago on summary judgment.

[12:50:04] The best lawyers, I have spoken to so many lawyers, they said, this is a case. This is a case that should have ended. This judge is giving us unfair rulings. Now I say why. Well, I'm building a wall, OK? And it's a wall between Mexico not another country. Mexico.

TAPPER: He's not from Mexico. He's from Indiana.

TRUMP: In my opinion. He's a Mexican heritage. And he's very proud of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right. You want to catch the full interview between Jake Tapper and Donald Trump tomorrow morning 9:00 a.m. Eastern and also Jake (inaudible) and we'll be joined by Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. Don't miss State of the Union tomorrow only on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I have had horrible rulings. I've been treated very unfairly by this judge. Now, this judge is a Mexican heritage. I'm building a wall, OK? I'm building a wall.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:55:02] WHITFIELD: Donald Trump and his own words speaking to Jake Tapper exclusively about the American-born federal judge in the Trump University case. Let's talk more about this with CNN senior political analyst Ron Brownstein, CNN director for the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia, Larry Sabato. All right, good to see you both of you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi Fredricka.

WITHFIELD: OK, where we begin on this when -- wow that some interview because ...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.

WHITFIELD: ... you know, Donald Trump was, you know, digging in his heels talking about the unfairness of the judge, at the same time talking about because he is building a wall. You know, that there are some bias because of, you know, the Mexican heritage of this judge.

So, Ron, how is this -- how does Donald Trump and his campaign continue to see this kind of jargon as beneficial?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, first of all, this is not normal political discourse. I mean this is I think you have to say is unprecedented, it is indefensible and he's dangerous. I mean it reveals a kind of racially ruded (ph) tribal view of life, of our society that I think fundamentally antithetical to American values.

By the logic of this, you know, any Mexican-American who he calls a Mexican, any Mexican-American judge is inherently biassed against him because of his policy views. His unfavorable ratings among African- Americans in national polls are as high as they are among Hispanics. So any African-American judge inherently unfavorable to him because they view him as racist because of his efforts on the (inaudible) controversy for years or for that matter unfavorable ratings aren't nearly as high among college educated, professional white women who may view him as sexist.

So, are they unfit to hear a case around him? This is kind of a indication I think what many Republican leaders have been most concerned about with Donald Trump is that you simply don't know where he is going to go from day to day and you find Republicans all over the country today are thinking, how am I going to justify and explain these comment.

WHTIFIELD: In fact, you know, Ron, you wrote an (inaudible) you say that the style of jargon that Donald Trump has been using is a not ...

BROWNSTEIN: Yeah.

WHITFIELD: ... so subtle way of hearkening to a time in America where things, you know ... BROWNSTEIN: Right.

WHITFIELD: ... worked better for the "Overwhelmingly white, heavily blew collar coalition." And now drawn to him and you even interviewed with somebody who said, you know, "It's almost cultural nostalgic, blacks and Hispanics," hear that, his language, you know, and think it's great for some but at the expense of others."

BROWNSTEIN: Right. Well, look, I think the key word in the Donald Trump lexicon is this campaign is again, I mean that is the kind of the explanation point on many of his signature declarations, we're going win again, we're going to make America great again. It kind of hearkens back to this idea that there was an idealized earlier time in American life that worked better.

I don't -- if you look at the groups that have long been marginalized in American life, whether it's minorities, or gays, or -- to some extent professional women. There is no idealized past they are trying to return to. They, you know, America may be today less than optimal in terms of providing them opportunity. But I think there are very few African-Americans or Hispanics who said, well, they go back to 1960 or 1965, we would be better off. And I think the Trump language will flex this idea that he was trying to build a coalition of restoration.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWNSTEIN: With the changes that we're living through.

WHITFIELD: Right. When he says things like again or back.

So, Larry, let's talk about the GOP leadership. You've got Paul Ryan who came out and endorsed him finally after, you know, pondering and thinking it over. And then very next day had to kind of double back and say, well, I don't necessarily, you know, condone everything that Donald Trump has just said. So talk to us about the real difficult situation that the Republican leadership is in when this is the presumptive nominee. They feel like they have to coalesce and support him but at the same time begrudgingly. So, what does this say about the GOP leadership that, you know, it feels like it has to back him even though it may not like him?

LARRY SABATO, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR POLITICS, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Well, he's the nominee of the party. First, let me just say, I endorse everything that Ron just said. In a nutshell, this is what the Republican leadership is going to have to deal with for the five full long months of this campaign remaining

No one ever told Donald Trump, you have to pick your battles. He refuses to pick and choose the ones that would actually help him in the campaign. And No one can reel him in. Apparently, no one in this campaign office, no one in the Republican leadership, probably no one in his family.

Fred, look at your own air. What have we seen on CNN the past few days? Even the people who are either paid to come on air or come on voluntarily to defend Donald Trump can't defend his attack on this judge. And there's a reason for that. It's indefensible.

WHITFIELD: Larry Sabato, Ron Brownstein, we're going to leave it right there. Thank you so much. We'll talk again. The next hour of the CNN Newsroom starts right now.