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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Sources: Trump Orders Supporters To Keep Attacking Judge; Trump: Don't Like "Wasting My Time" Talking About Lawsuit; Trump Targets Lawsuit Law Firm; A Texas-Sized Case?; Sanders' Last Hurrah?; Did Texas Let Trump University Off Easy?; Finish Line Looms For Clinton, Sanders; Bernie Sanders' Last Stand?; Clinton, Sanders Fight For Final Dem Delegates; Democrats' Next Moves; What We Know About Gorilla Behavior. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired June 6, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:03:14] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Welcome to a day that began with Donald Trump under fire from Republicans over his ethnically based attacks on a federal judge ended with word of a conference call. And according to our sources, Trump telling surrogates not to back down, telling them instead to keep it up that our sources say to keep going after the judge.
And now, that's the breaking news. It's our lead this hour. There's also this, when asked about the controversy by Fox News' Bill O'Reilly tonight, Trump instead suggested he was through talking about the case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: At least by talking about it, people understand it's a civil lawsuit that should have been dismissed a long time ago. But the judge is treating me very unfairly.
BILL O'REILLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: All right.
TRUMP: The questions were asked. And, you know, frankly, I don't even like wasting my time talking about this lawsuit. I'm going to win this lawsuit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Donald Trump tonight after quite a day. More from CNN's Sara Murray who joins us now with the latest. This conference call, explain what we know about it.
SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, Anderson, you know, we know this was a conference call with supporters and surrogates for Donald Trump. And then, it sounds like it sort of began as a way for Trump to explain what was going on with his court case, explain why he has been taking this fight with the judge so that his supporters could better understand it, of course, in the face of all of this backlash he's been receiving.
But it seemed to, according to sources on the call, morph into Trump essentially trying to get them to help him create this echo chamber to continue criticizing this judge, to continue taking on members of the media who are also being critical of this judge and sort of stand by Donald Trump at a time when many Republicans are trying to distance themselves from him.
COOPER: And just to be clear, there was a memo sent out yesterday from the campaign instructing surrogates not to talk about or respond to questions about the Trump University lawsuit, is that correct?
MURRAY: That's right. And I think part of what sparked sort of the confusion and the firestorm over this call was surrogates had received a memo the night before essentially saying this was a legal matter, leave it alone. Don't deal with, you know, Trump University and the judge. And that was -- it was Jan -- with former Arizona governor Jan Brewer who brought up on the call, look, we got a memo yesterday that said the exact opposite.
[21:05:07] And Trump was very dismissive of the memo, very dismissive of, you know, the chatter that people should stop talking about this lawsuit. And instead, that's when he sort of encouraged people to back him up, to continue, sort of hammering this judge, hammering this case home. Now, the Trump campaign's official line on this, from their spokeswoman is that it was a very positive call, that it was a way for him to thank supporters on. But, obviously, we're getting a lot of different, sort of storylines coming out of this today, Anderson.
COOPER: And we've heard from two people on the call in our last hour, we will again this hour. Sara, thanks very much.
In addition to citing judges, Judge Curiel's ethnicity, Trump and Trump forces have been focusing heavily on what they consider another source of bias. This one ties the judge to Bill and Hillary Clinton, and you've probably heard it by now, as well as, the counter argument.
Tonight, though, and whenever something like this comes up we're going to try to get beyond all the rhetoric and search as best we can for the facts. More now on that angle from CNN's Sunlen Serfaty.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: A law firm in this San Diego office building being pulled into a political firestorm. At issue, the Trump campaign is claiming that the law firm appointed by Judge Curiel had paid big money to both Hillary and Bill Clinton for speeches, contributing to the campaign's opinion that Trump cannot be given a fair trial.
The Clintons did receive payment from the law firm, according to the Clintons' Financial disclosure forms, $675,000 over a five-year period. Former President Bill Clinton giving two speeches September 2009 and September of 2013 and Hillary Clinton spoke in September of 2014 before she was a presidential candidate. Each of the three speeches amounting to $225,000 a pop.
But the law firm was not hand-picked by the judge, according to court documents way back in September of 2012. It was the first plaintiff who filed a motion to have the law firm considered as counsel, and that was before a different judge not Judge Curiel.
It wasn't until February of 2014 when Judge Curiel approved the motion and signed this order formally appointing the law firm. Judge Curiel said then that the court is satisfied that the plaintiff's counsel met the criteria. That approval made more than a year before Donald Trump even declared his candidacy for president and not without merit. Legal expert tells CNN the choice make sense.
DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: This is a firm that has experienced handling class action law suits. It's a very narrow area of the law.
SERFATY: And that it is not unusual for big law firms to fork over sizable sums to hear from politicians.
CEVALLOS: Big law firms spend a lot of money on professional development and that includes hiring speakers. So it's not outside the realm of possibility that they would hire politicians and other notable figures to come speak to them and pay some exorbitant fees.
SERFATY: The Trump's campaign and its surrogates continue to hold this up as another layer in their argument that the judge is biased against Trump.
KATRINA PIERSON, TRUMP CAMPAIGN SPOKESWOMAN: This judge came in and appointed two law firms, two high-profile law firms, one a Hillary Clinton supporter had given hundreds of thousands of dollars to Clinton and her husband.
SERFATY: Former attorney general, Alberto Gonzalez, today is saying there are legitimate questions raised by the judge's selection of the firm.
ALBERTO GONZALEZ, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: These are the kinds of questions that should be asked in connection with -- and a connections with any case. That is whether or not does the judge have the kind of relationships or are there circumstances that exist that would call in to question the impartiality of the judge.
SERFATY: Sunlen Serfaty, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: But the law firm Robbins Geller Rudman & Dowd did not respond to CNN for comment on the story nor would they provide a full accounting of other political figures they paid to give similar speeches in the past. Obviously, that's one of the things we'd like to know.
I want to go back to the panel. Joining us, the CNN senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin. So, first of all Jeff, since you're just joining us, the things that Trump has been, kind of, thrown out there about this case, does that make sense to you?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I think it's important to separate two things. One is these alleged conflicts of interest that the judge has, which as far as I can tell are completely nonexistent. But the important point about those is that Trump himself has never talked about them. All he has talked about is the fact that the judge is Mexican. Once he was corrected about that, is it the judge is of Mexican ancestry. That's the only reason he said the judge was biased.
So, the fact that these other issues have been brought up after the fact to try to, you know, and offer some support is just -- it's ridiculous because Donald Trump is the one who's running for president and the only issue he's raised is that the judge is Mexican.
COOPER: So, what about the idea of, I mean, some people will hear, well, why is this big law firm paying the Clintons all this money? Is that standard for them to pay politicians to comment a speech?
TOOBIN: It is fairly unusual to have a law firm pay that much money to a -- any sort of public figure. And the Robbins Firm is known as one that has been sympathetic to Democratic politicians in the past as have most plaintiff side lawyers.
[21:10:02] Remember, this -- the judge was appointing a plaintiff's side lawyer in this case, so it's mostly Democrats. It's a very experienced firm, it was a very common thing for this judge -- for this law firm to be appointed. And the most important thing is that both Judge Curiel and the other judge were making this selection before Donald Trump was even a presidential candidate. So, how could this be an example of bias against him?
COOPER: So Jeffrey Lord joining us as well, Trump supporter. The fact that the plaintiff was the one or one of the first plaintiffs was the one to first file a motion to consider this law firm for counsel, not Judge Curiel. And in fact, it was a motion done in front of a different judge completely. Does that change the whole argument if this judge was politically motivated?
JEFFREY LORD, TRUMP SUPPORTER: The judge -- did Judge Curiel signed off on this, is that what you were not just saying a few minutes ago?
COOPER: Yes, he did sign off on it after the other judge had ruled on it as well.
LORD: Yeah, right, right. Well, right, exactly. Well, to the point, and I might add the head of the law firm gave something like $2,700, according to FTC reports to Hillary Clinton in May of last year just a few weeks before Donald Trump announced his candidacy when the whole world knew he was about to run for president.
COOPER: And Donald Trump has given to Hillary Clinton, though. I mean...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
CARL BERNSTEIN, JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR: Did Trump's lawyers oppose the appointment?
TOOBIN: Yeah. Can I just...
COOPER: Go ahead Jeff.
TOOBIN: ...make -- I'm just going to make one point about this is that, you know, if this judge is as bad as Donald Trump has said. He said he's a hater. He says he's biased. Why haven't his lawyers made a simple motion to recuse him? Lawyers do that all the time. If I may offer a hypothesis ...
TOOBIN: ... is that the lawyers, like most lawyers, have to follow the law. And there is no law that suggests this guy, this judge is biased in any way. So I mean, I think it's worth pointing out that they have not moved to get rid of that.
COOPER: John, does that get reported? Does that concern you?
JOHN JAY LAVALLE, TRUPM SUPPORTER: $675,000, yeah, that concerns me. That absolutely concerns me and it's true. Yes, it is unusual that those fees are paid to politicians by law firms. The selection is concerning without question. There are a lot of concerns ...
COOPER: Even though it was the plaintiff who asked for the law firm. You don't buy the whole idea that it's a limited pool of law firms.
LAVALLE: There's no limited pool. You come to New York City, let's walk down the street. There's hundreds, but not thousands birds.
LAVALLE: It's California, no matter what city this is a class-action lawsuit about Trump University. There's thousands of law firms that handle these types of (inaudible). It's not a limited pool. This is a very political law firm. There are a lot of suspect issues surrounding this election.
COOPER: But this all occurred before Donald Trump was running for president.
LAVALLE: ... the way he's being treated.
LAVALLE: During the course of this case, we saw a remarkable blunder this week that got very little play, that the judge releases confidential information and then unreleased ... COOPER: We talked about that.
LAVALLE: Well yeah, but that's either counts.
MARGARET HOOVER, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT: You know what, all of this is distracting from the actual question here which is, can somebody of a certain ethnicity rule impartially in a case that deals also with plaintiffs of their ethnicity? Is that possible? And does Donald Trump believe that that's possible?
And that is a fundamental question that we should know about any president. We know what he thinks. Many of us think that is a racist. Many of us think it draws the line. We think this is not what the nominee of the Republican Party should be. But all of us -- and we'll see just how many those are, Jeffrey Lord.
LAVALLE: The possibility of a potential bias.
COOPER: Right, I hear you.
LAVALLE: There's nothing wrong with that.
HOOVER: Right, but what you're doing and what he's doing is in the court of public opinion trying to stoke this notion that somehow there is this injustice because of this racial thing.
SUSAN DEL PERCIO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: We're answering the facts.
HOOVER: No, you're not answering you text (ph). Donald Trump started all of this. Donald Trump believes this.
COOPER: Well I mean Donald Trump must believe he gets something out of it, that there are enough people out of there -- out there to agree with him ...
HOOVER: Maybe he gets a new judge.
COOPER: ... or what do you think?
DEL PERCIO: Well I think he's using this as a ploy to basically get the judge to recuse himself because as Jeffrey mentioned, there is. He has not filed anything and as Margaret just said there is no legal pathway for him based on what he has said, that this judge is biased based on his heritage. What Donald Trump should really do is what he mentioned in that interview is, move on from this. Let his lawyers handle it. To have his surrogates being responsible for litigating a civil issue in the ...
BERNSTEIN: Can we go to another question here?
COOPER: Yeah Carl.
BERNSTEIN: And that is I believe in talking to Republicans again that this if this is the case that Donald Trump thought there was some electoral advantage to saying what he said and to raising this question. And he put it out there to help him win this election, and now it has backfired or it appears to have backfired. We are swimming around in a sea of red herring here.
ALEX BURNS, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, NEW YORK TIMES: You know, this is what drives -- this is what drives mainstream Republicans absolutely up the wall about Donald Trump and his campaign. That he has now turned the entire last week of the election, a period of time where Hillary Clinton has faced damaging disclosures about her e-mails at the state department.
[21:15:04] That the president and Hillary Clinton have faced a damaging sign of slow economic growth into a referendum on a civil case alleging fraud against him and his businesses and the question of whether he is attacking a judge in racist terms.
This is not the way any conventional candidate would handle this matter. And I think you're seeing what the benefits of being a slightly more conventional candidate might have been.
COOPER: We got to take ...
BERNSTEIN: He wanted to raise race. That's the underlying fact that we're talking about here. He raise it had purposely and the question of Muslims as well. That is his central underlying message.
COOPER: He didn't raise that. He was asked about that by (inaudible).
DEL PERCIO: He brought up the judge's name at a political rally for one purpose only and that is what Carl said to bring up the issue of race saying he is being treated poorly by a man of Mexican heritage.
COOPER: We got to take a quick break.
COOPER: There's more -- I'm sorry. Jeff, go ahead. I wanted -- you get the last word on here.
LORD: Carl, again, President Kennedy, race has no place in American life or law. I agree, Donald Trump agrees. Unfortunately, a lot of Republican establishment folks are into identity politics and that's not good.
COOPER: Again, I just don't quite get your argument. I mean, you're completely reversing -- I mean, its Donald Trump who has brought up ...
BERNSTEIN: ... racial politics with the emancipation, was he on the American left?
LORD: Look, this is the block of the thought process of the Republican Party is the constitution should be colorblind, Carl. And what we've had for decades now is politics from the left that wants to racialize everything. Everybody has to be split up by race, bean counted, et cetera, et cetera.
COOPER: OK, but again, but didn't your candidate bring up the ethnicity of this person? In fact, incorrectly so call him a fellow Mexican.
LORD: Yes, yes, and thank goodness because -- yeah, and thank goodness he did so we can sit here on CNN and have this conversation. This is ...
COOPER: You think that's what Donald Trump was trying to promote, a discussion about identity politics?
DEL PERCIO: Yeah.
LORD: I absolutely think that. I think we backed into it sideways, but yeah, I absolutely think that's a very good outcome here. Yes.
COOPER: So by bringing this up he was actually suddenly commenting on a tradition of the left talking about identity politics, that's what you're actually saying?
LORD: Yeah. Anderson, there's no question that I think he backed into this with the Trump University situation, but in doing so it does bring this up. It does bring this up exactly.
LORD: This has been going on for years.
COOPER: Let's take a quick break.
LORD: This is an important discussion to have in a presidential campaign and thank goodness he did it.
COOPER: Yeah, I certainly think it is an important discussion to know where candidates stand on issues like this.
More to talk about including the State of Texas which also was looking at Trump University. Trump down plays it, a lawsuit never happen. However, the facts of the case, why it was dropped, are raising new questions which we investigate later.
A rock star sized rally for Bernie Sanders in San Francisco with the delegate numbers favoring Hillary Clinton. Are we looking at his last hurrah? More details ahead.
[21:21:33] COOPER: In addition to attacking the judge in two lawsuits against Trump University slamming New York's attorney general is bringing a separate case. Donald Trump has been saying that other attorneys general have investigated his operation and found nothing amiss.
However, details of the case in Texas do suggest otherwise. Tonight we investigate. Drew Griffin reports.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: It was a serious enough investigation that the state of Texas attorney general's office was seeking $5.4 million from Donald Trump and Trump University to avoid a lawsuit. The money to pay back the 456 Texans, investigators say the school defrauded which makes this comment from Donald Trump in an interview with Jake Tapper last week. It seem at the very least completely misleading.
TRUMP: And you know this case was turned down by almost every attorney general from Texas to Florida to many of these states?
GRIFFIN: In Texas, Trump University was subject of a full-scale investigation by the attorney general's Department of Consumer Affairs. It alleged Trump University violated five different Texas commercial codes and accused the school and Trump himself of false, misleading and deceptive acts and practices that were unlawful.
In fact, these documents obtained by CNN show, Texas state investigators actually went undercover inside Trump real estate seminars here in Texas. And they found the same patterns and practices that has Trump defending his university in lawsuits in California and New York.
TRUMP: Success. It's going to happen to you.
GRIFFIN: Trump University can turn anyone into a successful real estate investor. The reality, Trump University was all about bait and switch. According to the Texas attorney general, the free seminars were really infomercials for the three day, $1,495 course. And that three day, $1,495 course had a primary goal, to use more high pressure sales tactics to get students to buy the gold elite package with $35,000.
Dozens of students told the Texas attorney general's office they didn't learn anything except how to prey upon homeowners in financial turmoil and to target for closure properties. And there is this, acknowledgment from Donald Trump's attorney that Trump personally reviewed and approved the course materials. Texas state officials felt they had solid evidence filled case. But just before the settlement meeting, Trump U lawyers told Texas they would completely pull out of the lone star state, never to return. And the state's lawsuit was dropped leaving those Texans who felt defrauded force d to pursue refunds on their own.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And Drew joins us now from Austin, Texas. Why did the Texas attorney general drop the case? Why not try to get back some of the money Texans lost?
GRIFFIN: Well, the Texas attorney general then is the Texas governor today, and Governor Greg Abbott's a Republican. So there has been a lot of allegations that this was dropped because of the Republican connection. Well, the governor today said that's just a bunch of bunk. He said six years ago he had no say in the decision to drop the Trump case, and the person who was involved in saying we're going to drop this case at the attorney general's office said they did it for one reason.
They had successfully driven Trump University out of Texas. No one else, according to them, was going to be scammed by Trump University, and they had done their job so they dropped the case.
[21:25:07] COOPER: All right. Drew Griffin. Drew, I appreciate the reporting.
Just ahead the final Super Tuesday of 2016 now just hours away. The question is, will it be Bernie Sanders' last stand? Hillary Clinton just 26 delegates from clinching the nomination, Sanders speaking at a packed concert tonight in San Francisco. We'll hear what the supporters are saying, ahead.
COOPER: Well the primary season unlike any other is nearing the finish line, the final Super Tuesday of 2016 now just hours away. Six states vote tomorrow. California, the biggest prize, 475 Democratic delegates at stake.
Hillary Clinton, the front-runner is now just 26 delegates short of sewing up the nomination. Democratic sources say President Obama could endorse her by the end of this week.
Bernie Sanders, though, has still not signaled he's ready to bow out, not by a long shot. Over a weekend, he, again, raised the prospect of a contested convention. Sanders concert is underway right now in San Francisco.
Gary Tuchman got there early to talk to supporters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: These are true Bernie believers.
Sanders' supporters lining up as far as the eye can see in San Francisco, hours before the candidate himself even arrives. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bernie or bust.
[21:30:05] TUCHMAN: But is that bust about to occur? Is this Bernie Sanders' last stand?
MEG BRITTAN, SANDERS SUPPORTER: If Bernie Sanders doesn't get the nominee, it would be really depressing. I don't think people will stop believing in him or stop trying to fight the good fight. But, that's going to be a really sad day if that's the case.
TUCHMAN: Sanders refuses to step aside for Hillary Clinton despite the fact she is on the verge of becoming the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee.
Are you prepared for her being named that?
RAYMOND CHICO, SANDERS SUPPORTER: I don't want to hear it but, yes, it looks like that could happen, very well happen.
TUCHMAN: How do you feel about that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. She's better than the alternative.
TUCHMAN: A conciliatory viewpoints like those seem to be the exception among these fervent supporters.
President Obama and Vice President Biden are likely very soon going to endorse Hillary Clinton. How does that make you feel? What would you say to them?
PATRICIA REYES, SANDERS SUPPORTER: They're friends. I didn't vote for Obama because I consider him part of the same Hillary's establishment.
TUCHMAN: Tori Jacobs is representative of many people waiting in this line. Hillary Clinton is named the presumptive nominee, what are you going to do or say about it?
TORI JACOBS, SANDERS SUPPORTER: She won't be. Straight up, dude, she won't. What if, what if.
TUCHMAN: She is angry and has no plans to compromise.
The fact is that it's very likely going to happen.
JACOBS: No, it really likely isn't. I'm sorry, that's your script. Like, you guys, that's your script, dude. Everybody on the internet, social media, look, there's all the polling out there and you guys are straight up just lying. It's a blackout.
TUCHMAN: A blackout which is short for Bernie blackout which many Sanders supporters allege has kept their man off the news. Many here say they have a message for Democratic Party leadership.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I say to them is their days are numbered, because they are obviously subverting the will of the people.
TUCHMAN: There is still a lot of time for this anger to possibly subside. Election Day is still five months away. Five months ago, the Iowa caucuses hadn't even happened yet and there have been a lot of tumultuous developments since then. Five months is a long time. But some here swear they will never get over it.
If you watch TV on Tuesday night and you see Hillary Clinton's name next to the term presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, tell me how that will make you feel.
EDWARD LARA, SANDERS SUPPORTER: Bad, like doom. I mean, I think Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump both represent doom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Gary, I mean, it seems like a number of the people you talked to, they really believe Bernie Sanders is still has a shot at winning the nomination.
TUCHMAN: At a common sentiment here, Anderson. A lot of people still believe that. For many it's just wishful thinking. They don't know how that exactly will work. But other people are very specific, they're saying that there will be a massive superdelegate switch and over the next few weeks the superdelegates will realize that Bernie Sanders is the man. And by the time the convention comes, they will cast their vote for Bernie Sanders. At least that's what they want to see happened.
By the way, that's Dave Matthews behind me, the Dave Matthews band, who'd leading off and Bernie Sanders, Anderson, will be taking the stage.
COOPER: All right, Gary, thanks very much. According to CNN's estimate Hillary Clinton needs 26 delegates still up the Democratic nomination. Her support among superdelegates has given her a huge edge over Sanders. John King is back at the wall to break it all down by the numbers.
So the Clinton campaign, I mean, they're 100 percent confident she's going to be the presumptive nominee tomorrow night. Any reason to doubt that?
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No. Absolutely no reason to doubt that, Anderson. Let me show you why. In the pledged delegate count, she is just shy of a 300 lead in pledged delegates right now. Although this is changing by the second -- by the second, look at this, 561 superdelegates in now to 47 for Senator Sanders. We have her in our CNN cut, Anderson, right here up kissing the line, shy by 10 delegates. But as I said, this is changing by the second.
And the Clinton campaign knows, number one, media counts are beginning to put them at or over the line. Number two, they know that in their private conversations with these remaining 106 superdelegates, dozens of them, I'm told, have already privately committed to Secretary Clinton. So they know in their math they're already over the line. But what they want to have happen is for the voters to do it. They want to be able to say that the voters of New Jersey put Hillary Clinton over the line. They expect to win in New Jersey tomorrow. They expect to win something like this, 55 to 45.
But even if Senator Sanders were to pull up enough in New Jersey and win 55 to 45 percent, Hillary Clinton is across the finish line. They are quite certain the first state we count votes in tomorrow night, if there is any doubt by 8:00 tomorrow night, 9:00 tomorrow night, there will be none when we start counting in New Jersey.
COOPER: And the young lady in Gary's piece, she said this is all a conspiracy by the media, that on the internet there was all these polls, this is a blackout by the mainstream media, is there a path for Sanders to come back tomorrow?
KING: Yes, but it's a very difficult path. Let me take the superdelegates off the board for a minute. If this happen tomorrow, Anderson, if Senator Sanders won them all, got to tap this here, hang on one second for me.
If Senator Sanders can win them all, and this is at 55-45 percent, and I'll show what it does to the pledged delegate count. I'm giving him all six there. The Clinton campaign thinks it will win New Jersey, they think it will maybe win New Mexico and they think they, maybe, will win California. That they could get at least two, maybe three. They think Sanders will get the Dakotas in Montana.
[21:35:07] If Sanders won them all, 55-45 percent, he would still be 220 or so down in the pledged delegate count, so he needs to win with 60 percent in some other states, 70 percent in some the states.
Is it possible? Maybe up here. Is it possible in New Mexico and California, and New Jersey? Probably not, but if he wins them all, Anderson, maybe the super delegates get a case of jitters. But this is unlike.
That I want to show you something to close this conversation because when you hear the Sanders' supporters say this, part of this is because of what they're being told by the senator's allies. If you look at this, if this is about democracy, heading into tomorrow she's won 29, he's won 21. She has this big healthy lead in pledge delegates. She has this big healthy lead in superdelegates.
For Senator Sanders to win, to create the environment for superdelegates to switch, Anderson, six tomorrow, the final contest in the District of Columbia. If he can get make this 29, 28, if he can get this down to within a 100 maybe there'll be a case of the jitters but most people think that's quite unlikely including the president of the United States who is prepared as early as Wednesday to came up for Secretary Clinton.
COOPER: All right, John King, John thanks.
Back with the panel, also joining the conversation, Jonathan Tasini, Bernie Sanders' surrogate who also ran against Hillary Clinton in the primary for her Senate seat in 2006, also Basil Smikle a Clinton supporter and executive director of the New York State Democratic Party. Jonathan ...
JONATHAN TASINI, BERNIE SANDERS SURROGATE: I'm not going to say. No.
TASINI: She is not clinching it tomorrow. Here's a statement from the Sanders' team. Can I read with the whole thing.
COOPER: Go ahead.
TASINI: It is unfortunate to the media in a rush to judgment are ignoring the Democratic National Committee's clear statement. I want to underscore that's the DNC's statement not the Sanders' campaign, that it is wrong, with all due respect to John King, who I admire, wrong to count the votes of superdelegates before they actually vote at the convention this summer.
Secretary Clinton does not have and will not have the requisite number of pledge delegates to secure the nomination. And I just can't fathom why the media's just rushing to call this thing over. That the first thing that's going to happen tomorrow ...
COOPER: But isn't President Obama rushing to call this over?
TASINI: I want to point out two things before I talk about the president. Tomorrow there will going to be people who want to vote in California. And if the media start has already started calling this that is going to discourage people from voting. That is not good for democracy. There is still a primary on December 14th for District of Columbia.
COOPER: Right. So again, President Obama coming forward ...
TASINI: Those people, those people will have chance to vote.
COOPER: ... Wednesday, is he silencing the votes of people?
TASINI: I think that the president should wait and I think honestly that the president should wait until the superdelegates to the delegates vote at the convention. I understand why he's doing that. But if you look actually at the facts about when the nomination is, clean it's not until the convention.
BASIL SMIKLE, CLINTON SUPPORTER: Well, I don't know why the president should wait because the superdelegates have actually made up their minds. And so but it's an incumbent upon the Sanders' campaign to that's in to change their minds. That's why I think it's support the you say as that that the language presumptive nominee but the fact of the matter is she's won 3 million more votes she's won more or a primary states. She has the majority of the delegates and the rules say you add these superdelegates which get you to that 2,383 number and, yes, you can go to the convention you can do whatever you'd like to do at the convention to try to sway some of those delegates, its one way or another. It's unlikely to happen and, frankly ...
SMIKLE: ... frankly I think it's important to start early a ground game that gets us to a place where we can go after a Donald Trump.
TASINI: First of all, we're all going to be onboard ...
COOPER: Go Jonathan, quickly.
TASINI: We're all going to be onboard on defeating Donald Trump. He -- Basil actually made a slight adjustment which I agree, tomorrow we can't use the word clinched. I understand if the media says it's a steep hill, et cetera.
COOPER: OK, all right.
TASINI: But that's not being clinched tomorrow.
BURNS: If I can stick up for the media here, you know, there's notion that the media saying that Hillary Clinton is overwhelmingly likely to be the Democratic nominee is going to discourage people from voting, we would have seen some evidence of that since the media began saying that correctly in April, right?
TASINI: No, but that's not true.
BURNS: Jonathan, Jonathan, Jonathan, come on, come on, come on, Senator Sanders, Senator Sanders ...
COOPER: Let him respond. You get, you've talked twice. Let him speak once.
BURNS: Senator Sanders a couple of weeks ago was raising the hue and cry that the media ought to be pressuring superdelegates to vote the will of their states. Now we're supposed to be backing off and letting superdelegates vote any which way they please regardless of what happens in their states.
So, I respect that your aggressive surrogate for your candidate. I respect that Senator Sanders have wants a path forward in this race but let's not pretend that the press is doing anything other than doing the math and reporting the results.
COOPER: Jonathan, your respond, and we're going to ...
TASINI: Very quickly. All I'm saying is, they should not use the word clinch because it's not factual. That's what the DNC's position is.
COOPER: All right, we're going to take a quick break.
And more from our panels, Hillary Clinton just wrapped up a rally in Long Beach. Just ahead we'll talk more about what might happen after the votes are all in tomorrow if Secretary Clinton does hit the magic number of delegates. What will Bernie Sanders' next move.
We'll be right back.
[21:43:45] COOPER: The Sanders concert and rally on the left, Bill Clinton speaking on the right as the eve of the final Super Tuesday of 2016, we're talking about what happens after it tomorrow.
Back with the panel. I mean, what has history showed just in terms of when we saw Clinton against then candidate Obama coming together at the convention? How likely we're going to see a repeat of that at this convention?
BURNS: Well, I think that that would be sort of the model for a respectful and graceful winding down of this primary. I think it's probably more than the Clinton campaign would like to give Senator Sanders and its last than Senator Sanders wants to get from them.
You had this sort of, you know, show unfold in the couple weeks after the nomination was wound up and then going into the convention where Hillary Clinton wanted to give her delegates the chance to vote for her and she wanted to have her moment in the sun.
But there was really no question that it was over, right. You didn't have surrogates for Hillary Clinton saying this is, you know, here's a major service for Hillary Clinton saying, this thing could still go any way. Who knows what could happen to Barack Obama between now and then.
I think the real question, the thing that makes Democrats very nervous and the thing that makes Trump supporters a little bit excited is that Senator Sanders is just not a man of the Democratic Party. He's not a guy who has lived inhabited ...
COOPER: John, do you believe your candidate Trump can actually really still pick up Sanders supporters?
LAVALLE: Absolutely, every poll shows it. And I think there's an assumption that, oh, if Bernie Sanders endorses Hillary Clinton, everybody comes. That's not happening.
[21:45:06] LAVALLE: A third of those voters I bet aren't going to come. A lot of those voters are going to stay home. And you can't say she's the presumptive nominee. She didn't clinch anything. A lot can happen between now and the convention. The Democratic rules are pretty clear. She could be indicted between now and then more information could come out about the e-mail scandal you could have issues about her foundation. There are so many things.
COOPER: Carl, is that what is sort of this subtext of some of the Sanders campaign?
BERNSTEIN: Yes, and I've talked to enough Sanders people they know that it is, that they think there's a chance with some king of news come will come out of the FBI investigation or leaks or whatever. Not necessarily an indictment that will make the superdelegates think twice.
Meanwhile you have President Obama who wants Hillary Clinton to be the nominee, thinks she is the better candidate. He's going to come out for her and he's the one person that can really help her in this election. His got some real credibility he can pull the party together.
Sanders in this convention is going to also move to Hillary if he's the nominee. And I mean his going to help -- I cannot imagine that he wants to be put in the role of electing Donald Trump, I know no one who knows Bernie Sanders who doesn't thinks he is go out there campaign with everything he's got to beat Donald Trump.
SMIKLE: While I respect so many of you on this panel, I think it's a little disingenuous to hold this concept this issue of indictment over her head like a sort ...
BERNSTEIN: I think it's unlikely. I don't think there will be an indictment.
SMIKLE: I know, but the fact we keep talking about it ...
COOPER: Let him respond.
SMIKLE: It keep racing it seems to me all it does is it fuel the folks on the right that have basically only promoted this issue as a means to disqualify her instead of talking about her on the substance instead of talking about the real ...
COOPER: Your point John.
BERNSTEIN: It's about reporting and journalism. It's not about favoring a candidate. There is a real investigation that's going on. We don't know the results of we know there are a lot of people in that investigation who might leak things that are in inimical to Hillary Clinton's interest whether those leaks are fair or not it's something else you get it's part of the dynamic. That's why we're racing it. TASINI: I want to go off the indictment thing. Because that's all speculation I actually support what Basil says. I know my friends perhaps some Bernie supporters will be outraged by this, but there's a bigger thing which is all the polls show Bernie does much better against Donald Trump and for the following reasons he appeals to independents. There is a sense that the economics don't work for most people. It's one of the reasons that I've argued that Donald Trump will do well in some industrial battleground states over trade which Bernie Sanders has been very solid on and Hillary Clinton is not.
And I think just based on the issues the pitch I would make, and I think Bernie would make to the super delegates, has nothing to the e- mails his actually doesn't want to focus on that. But about the issues, about why he's stronger and why he willl bring a better America for the people.
COOPER: We got to take another quick break. I want to thank everybody on the panel.
Coming up this evening, the prosecutor investigating the case of a 3- year-old boy who got in that gorilla enclosure at a zoo has made a decision about whether boy's mom will face any charges. What he said today and why, next.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh my gosh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody back up.
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[21:52:05] COOPER: The persecutor investigating the incident that left a 450-pound gorilla dead and a 3-year-old family very shaken up says a little voice mother will not face any charges. The boy fell into gorilla exhibits Cincinnati Zoo was drag by Harambe, the gorilla. Today the prosecutor says by all accounts, the mom didn't act in any way to presented harmful to the child. He said if anyone thinks a 3- year-old can operate quickly, they don't have kids.
A zoo official shot and killed Harambe with other new expert say was the right decision in this case. Gorilla behavior obviously can be unpredictable.
Randi Kaye spoke with an expert on gorillas at the Philadelphia Zoo to learn more.
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RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is how most gorillas spend their days, sitting quietly, snacking on leaves and berries. At the Philadelphia Zoo, there are five gorillas, including three silverbacks. Matuba is 31 and weighs more than 400 pounds.
ANDY BAKER, CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER, PHILADEPHIA ZOO: He's a relatively mellow, adult male gorilla. You know, gorillas have personalities just like people do. And, you know, some of them more excitable some that are less excitable.
KAYE: Andy Baker, the Zoo's Chief Operating Officer has studied climatology with him is our guide we we're given an up close look and how gorillas interact and behave.
BAKER: It's really the male who is responsible for managing the social order of the group, managing their day-to-day activities.
KAYE: Activities that include playtime.
BAKER: Tumbling across the grass, tackling, wrestling all of the things that you would expect to see in adolescence humans.
KAYE: Andy often refers the gorilla is as quiet giants. They don't make much noise though do they do have as many as 30 different vocalization, including roars if threatened and rumbles if satisfied compared to other primates, they are quiet but at times can be hostile.
BAKER: They've got a fairly dramatic display. That whole chest- pumping thing although, you know, it's actually not this, it's with an open hand. And they can charge across and usually not make contact with the object of their display.
KAYE: Such a colorful display, Andy says is most often provoke by something or someone else.
Andy says, while gorillas in general may not be aggressive, certain things can set them off. For example, humans communicate using direct eye contact but for a gorilla, a direct stare can be perceived as a threat and they may lash out.
Still, at the Philadelphia Zoo, staring is all visitors can do. These gorillas are a huge attraction. Here, visitors get to see the gorillas and their trainers interact.
The gorilla keeper uses hand signals and vegetables as rewards to entice gorillas to come close and get medical treatment. This way, trainers can administer vaccinations or even anesthesia through the mesh bins, where the gorilla is chest pressed to the mesh, he can even get an electrocardiogram.
Workers can inspect his hand and feet too in case of injury. Trainers even didn't ultrasound through the mesh on honey. A pregnant gorilla she's learned to press her belly to the fence. This is the picture of the baby gorilla inside her.
[21:55:06] No question gorillas are smart and they like to learn but Andy reminds as they are unpredictable.
BAKER: Predicting what gorillas as any wild animal is going to do is really are not something you can do with a high degree of reliability.
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COOPER: Randi joins me now. Did the zoo say anything about the behavior of the gorilla in the Cincinnati Zoo incident?
KAYE: They didn't really want to talk about that case specifically, Anderson. But Andy Baker, our expert did tell us that that sort of dragging behavior like we saw that the gorilla dragging the boy in Cincinnati, is part of a gorilla's dramatic display. And usually goes along with the chest-thumping, he said.
He also said the gorilla's do tend to drag branches or whatever they can corporate into their display when they're responding to something in their environment.
Now, he also pointed out that it's typical to see a male gorilla and a young gorilla wrestling around, maybe tumbling or playing, just like a human dad might do with his son for fun.
So, this is all typical gorilla behavior, though, their behavior, he admits, can be unpredictable, Anderson.
COOPER: Yeah. That's incredible strength. Randi, thanks very much. We'll right back.
[22:00:01] COOPER: That does it for us. Thanks for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" with Don Lemon starts right now.