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E.U. Seeks Migrant Deals with Africa, Middle East; Gloria Steinem on the Candidacy of Hillary Clinton; Tom Brokaw on a Lifetime of Reporting; Imagine a World. Aired 11-11:30p ET

Aired June 9, 2016 - 23:00   ET




CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: just two weeks ahead of a British referendum that could change the face of Europe, the E.U.

Commission vice president admits the bloc must work harder for people's support.


FRANS TIMMERMANS, EUROPEAN COMMISSION VICE PRESIDENT: We need to acknowledge that, over many, many years, we have been overpromising and

underdelivering and let's try and turn that around. Let's be more modest in terms of what we promise. And let's surprise people in terms of what we



AMANPOUR (voice-over): Plus in the American elections, President Obama endorses Hillary Clinton, calling her perhaps the most qualified for the

presidential office in history.

And two giants of the American zeitgeist speak to me about the state of their union, First feminist icon, Gloria Steinem, on Hillary Clinton.


GLORIA STEINEM, FEMINIST ICON: I did not think I would live to see this. And I do feel very, very moved and celebratory because it is not a woman;

it is the right woman who actually represents the majority needs of women and men in this country.


AMANPOUR: And I speak with a titan of broadcast journalism, Tom Brokaw.


AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

Two weeks to go before Britain takes part in a historic referendum. And today an increasingly close and divisive race got a little testier with the

campaign's first defection.

A senior Conservative MP has switched to the Remain camp, blasting what she called Brexit lies about the national health service and E.U. dues.

The Leave side fired back. As a leading business man, Lord Bamford told his 6,000 employees there's, quote, "very little to fear from getting out

of the E.U."

But immigration remains the most contentious issue, with Brexiters suddenly raising the specter now of Turkey joining the union and Remainers saying,

no way.

But whether in Britain, America or across Europe, this is the season of xenophobia. And I talked to the E.U. Commission's vice president Frans

Timmermans about this as he unveiled plans to slow migration with the aid of trade deals to be had with Africa and the Middle East.


AMANPOUR: Mr. Timmermans, welcome to our program.

TIMMERMANS: Thank you very much for having me.

AMANPOUR: Now the European Commission and you have laid out a new additional policy on refugees and new deals with countries such as Lebanon

and others.

But does it also sort of smack of desperation?

The E.U.'s record on refugees, whether sharing the burden in the refugee community or in dealing with legitimate economic migration, has not been

very edifying.

TIMMERMANS: Well, I think what we need to do is to be comprehensive. We will not have compacts with those countries that will be supported by our

member states if we do not a better job at protecting our external borders.

We will not be able to provide refuge for real refugees if we do not do a better job at returning people who don't deserve to stay.

We will not have a sustainable support in the European population for a humanitarian approach and refugee policy if we don't prove to the European

population that we do provide shelter for people who need it but we don't let everybody in from the rest of the world.

AMANPOUR: I mean, clearly, obviously --


AMANPOUR: -- you're putting your finger on a very emotive button right now. Immigration is a huge hot topic with political consequences all over

the E.U.

Before I get to Britain, I want to ask you about Turkey, because obviously the E.U. has done a deal with Turkey to try to stem the flow of refugees.

And it has come up against a lot of criticism because of some of the issues in Turkey.

I mean, one MEP, for instance, says that the E.U. is sacrificing its principles and reputation over this deal.

How do you respond to that?

TIMMERMANS: Well, I would like that MEP to give me a better idea. Had we not entered into an agreement with Turkey and with the Balkan borders being

closed, we would have condemned Greece to become one huge refugee center for hundreds of thousands of people crossing the Aegean Sea, many of whom

would die crossing the sea, others who would live in terrible conditions in Greece.

And Greece that would be suffering in a terrible way to cope with all of this. So we went from 3,000 people crossing daily into Greece to now

approximately perhaps 50 a day and almost no one drowning in the Aegean.

And whatever criticism you may have about the deal or about Turkey, I think every life saved is worth this deal.

AMANPOUR: The question is, though, at what cost because Turkey has been criticized by a very senior member of the E.U. for its human rights issues,

for its freedom of the press issues, for its very wide-ranging and therefore liberal applicant of anti-terror laws.

TIMMERMANS: Look, we've had this attitude from the European Union and Turkey for years simply standing back-to-back, not talking to each other,

just blaming each other.

What does that do for human rights in Turkey?

What did that do for the freedom of the press in Turkey?

Nothing whatsoever.

So if Turkey has the ambition to come closer to Europe, they need to prove it by protecting journalists, by not putting them in jail, by making sure

there's due process of law, by protecting human rights. And we need to have a discussion about that with Turkey. We need to engage with Turkey.

AMANPOUR: Can we get to Britain?

Because Britain has as its real sort of emotional touchstone the idea of immigration.

If Britain gets out, will it affect the number of E.U. migrants being able to come to Britain?

That's what I don't understand.

TIMMERMANS: It's something I cannot answer today because if the Brits were to vote to leave the European Union, then only we will start a process of

looking at the consequences of that. And I'm not going to speculate about that.

AMANPOUR: All the E.U. and European partners have said that this is not just a decision about Britain. It is a decision about Europe.

Can a European personage of your authority actually afford to stay silent?

TIMMERMANS: Well, I think -- I truly believe and profoundly believe that it's in the interest of the European Union that the United Kingdom will

remain on board. And I am as arrogant to say that I also believe it's in the interest of the United Kingdom to stay on board of the European Union.

But it's not my decision. It's for the British people to decide.

AMANPOUR: So the Brexiters say that the E.U. bureaucracy is so bloated and that sovereignty is entirely in the hands, even about British decisions of

Brussels. But I read that the total number of civil servants in the whole of the E.U. bureaucracy is something like 42,500; whereas the British

bureaucracy, the civil service, is 10 times greater.

So are you able to tell your story constructively and conclusively?

TIMMERMANS: Well, frankly, I think it's more about are we able to deliver on results as the European Union?

And I think we need to look at ourselves and we need to acknowledge that, over many, many years, we have been overpromising and underdelivering. And

let's try and turn that around. Let's be more modest in terms of what we promise and let's surprise people in terms of what we deliver.

And I think this is essential for the future of the European Union, with or without the United Kingdom. And I believe many people, especially small

and medium-sized enterprises across the European Union, are disenchanted with Europe because we haven't delivered the goods.

So we need to do a better job at concentrating on things that we need to fix with European citizens, things that we cannot fix as individual member


How do you believe we could fix climate change if we do this individually as member states?

How do you believe we can face challenges, such as Putin's Russia, individually as member states?

I think we're much stronger if we face these challenges as Europeans together in the European Union.

AMANPOUR: And just because you brought it up, what do you think you're not doing well enough?

What are you promising too much of and delivering too little of?

TIMMERMANS: Well, I think we've been doing for many, many years a lot of legislation that was nice to have without proving that we really needed to

have it. We have changed that.


TIMMERMANS: We have withdrawn almost 100 proposals. We're concentrating on the main issues now: migration, refugees, security; creating an

internal market that works, the digital single market; creating an energy union.

We're concentrating on real priorities for European citizens. And I hope we can deliver on them very quickly so that people see that what we're

doing now is listening to them and delivering the goods, fixing stuff that needs to be fixed.

AMANPOUR: Frans Timmermans, Vice President of the European Commission, thank you very much for joining me.

TIMMERMANS: It was my pleasure.


AMANPOUR: And it's not just Britain, a new study says, that French, Spaniards and other Europeans are showing an enthusiasm deficit for their

union. But we have an enthusiasm surplus coming up, as President Obama endorses Hillary Clinton.

The legendary feminist, Gloria Steinem, tells me about having the first woman one step closer to the White House.

And the veteran American broadcaster, Tom Brokaw, on Trump versus the media and his new book, "A Lucky Life Interrupted." All that is next.




AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Bernie Sanders went to the White House and met President Obama today. But Hillary Clinton has just picked up Obama's endorsement. It's her biggest



BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For more than a year now, across thousands of miles and all 50 states, tens of millions of Americans

have made their voices heard. Today, I just want to add mine.

I want to congratulate Hillary Clinton on making history as the presumptive Democratic nominee for President of the United States.

Look, I know how hard this job can be. That's why I know Hillary will be so good at it. In fact, I don't think there's ever been someone so

qualified to hold this office.


AMANPOUR: And in this historic week, we talked to two American cultural legends. In a moment, news anchor, Tom Brokaw.

But first America's most famous feminist, Gloria Steinem, who says that Clinton's nomination is a long overdue move toward democracy.


AMANPOUR: Gloria Steinem, welcome back to the program.

STEINEM: Thank you so much. Thank you.

AMANPOUR: So how happy are you?

Did you think you'd see this day?

STEINEM: Actually I didn't.


STEINEM: Through 2008 I didn't think so. But then we had Barack Obama and they were the same on the issues so it was not so crucial. Now it's super

crucial and a super celebration.

AMANPOUR: You're talking about politics.

What about the woman thing though?

STEINEM: Well, I think that what is getting missed a little bit in the headlines is that it's not so much a woman as which woman. I mean, if it

were Sarah Palin or even Margaret Thatcher, I would not be getting calls from Zambia --


STEINEM: -- and Kenya and Japan and England, saying congratulations and how much this means to women around the world.

She really stands for something.

AMANPOUR: What do they think that this means to them?

And, particularly. if she goes on to actually win, that it will mean to them around the world and not just in America?

STEINEM: That this is a woman who stands for the majority issues of women around the world. This is a woman who understands that violence against

females worldwide has become so severe, that now there are actually fewer females on spaceship Earth than there are males and also that violence

against females is the biggest indicator and normalizer of all other violence.

And she understood that as secretary of state and now can really put that into policy.

AMANPOUR: So everybody is obviously talking about this historic moment for the United States but also saying now the real race begins.

What do you think Hillary Clinton has to do to beat this opponent, Donald Trump?

There will be the battle of the sexes. He has said and he says this coming week he's going to go after her. He's going to lay out what he calls his

indictment of Hillary and the Clintons in general.

What does she have to do?

STEINEM: Just be herself, you know, I mean and just speak for the majority, which she does. She was elected by the race gap and the gender gap in this

country. The country is, you know, a very diverse country. Trump's vote is a very undiverse vote.

And she stands for the majority issues as they are expressed in public opinion polls. I think the hard part will be not to respond to him on his

level but just to go for the issues and go for the, you know, go for where the people are.

AMANPOUR: You said that this campaign is going to be hell but it will be worth it.

What do you expect?

STEINEM: Well, because there's nothing he won't say and nothing he won't do and because there's no lie he won't tell, I mean, first of all, he says

he's a successful business man and that's the major reason people vote for him.

They say, well, then he could run the country. But the truth of the matter is that if he had just invested the money he inherited, he would be richer

than now. I mean, he's gone bankrupt. He's a successful con man.

But because he is a television brand and because he speaks a kind of entertaining language and because television networks need numbers in order

to get sponsors, he has become ubiquitous. He's just all over the place. So he is the candidate of resentment and hatred.

AMANPOUR: Today, President Obama has met with Bernie Sanders and, presumably, trying to encourage him to throw his support behind Hillary now

that she's clinched the delegates and to unify the party to face Trump in November.

What do you think Sanders -- or, rather, how do you think Hillary can appeal to Sanders voters, can get over what has been a very divisive race

even within the Democratic Party and warm herself up to appeal to the young people as well?

STEINEM: Bernie Sanders has stood for issues and nationally has been a new face; whereas Hillary Clinton, who has been part of the democratic process

in a very public way for a very long time, stands for the fact that when you enter into the democratic process, by definition, you don't necessarily

don't probably come out with your ideal.

But that's the nature of democracy. So I think that once people see that he is the diagnostician and that's very valuable, saying what's wrong; but

she is the doctor, she knows how to go in there and actually fix it.

AMANPOUR: I feel there's a slogan coming up. But I want to ask you, you have fought all your life for women's rights and this is a huge, huge step

in shattering that glass ceiling. Hillary herself had you in the video before her big speech.

What do you feel personally?

How does it make you feel?

STEINEM: I did not think I would live to see this and I do feel very, very moved and celebratory because it is not a woman, it is the right woman, who

actually represents the majority needs of women and men in this country.

But I think we need to understand, having Hillary in the White House does not mean it cures us of sexism. It is very important but we have to

understand that it's our actions from the bottom up that are important.

AMANPOUR: Gloria Steinem, thank you for being with us. What a moment.

STEINEM: Thank you.


AMANPOUR: So you heard Steinem there lambaste Trump's use of the media.

How about Trump's treatment of the press?

Tom Brokaw is one of America's most famous and respected journalists.


AMANPOUR: He's been reporting on U.S. politics for decades and he's also faced his own personal battle after being diagnosed with cancer in 2013.

It's all there in his new book, "A Lucky Life Interrupted," and Tom Brokaw joins me now from New York.


AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, Tom. It's good to see you.

BROKAW: Thank you, Christiane. I was just watching you with Gloria Steinem and remembering that I first met her in 1968 at the Chicago

Convention, when we didn't think there could be another year as tumultuous as that one was.

It does stand apart in its own way. Briefly, we don't have 15,000 people dying in Vietnam right now or our national leaders being assassinated. But

that turmoil is reflective of what we're going through now. There's a kind of an upheaval in this country about what the people want and how they're

going to get it.

AMANPOUR: Well, you brought up the whole issue of turmoil and, today, not just the upheaval about what people want but the total eradication of any

lines of public discourse that we have been brought up to expect and, particularly, as I mentioned in Trump's case, the treatment of the press.

What do you make of how he has manipulated the press but, at the same time, how he has practically generated his rallies against the press?

BROKAW: Well, what has been so striking to me is that even when the press catches him in what turns out to be a flat lie, on "Meet the Press" on the

Sunday after he said that he had seen thousands of Muslims celebrating in New Jersey at the time of the collapse of the two twin Trade Towers, I said

on the air, "It's a flat lie. It never happened. I promise you it didn't happen."

And very shortly after that, I was excoriated, not by Donald Trump but as much by his followers, who said crawl back under your rock, you don't know

who he's dealing with.

When he banned Muslims, said he would ban Muslims from this country, I went to Arlington Cemetery and pointed to the grave of a young Muslim who

enlisted in the Army because he didn't want everyone to think that Islam was a collection of fanatics -- and he was killed.

And I said, "You cannot ban this man from this country. He has a permanent home here."

Again, there was this vitriolic reaction to everything I said.

So whatever the press does at this point with Donald Trump, he has so ignited his followers that they're not willing to accept anything. And I

think to some degree he's using us successfully as part of the establishment. There they are, in their coats and ties, they're living in

Washington and they're a part of the problem. And people are responding to that.

AMANPOUR: So, OK, we have watched this primary season and we all know and knew much better than many that that is a particular portion of each party,

the base of each party.

How do you think this is going to unfold, now that it's a general election?

BROKAW: Well, Christiane, I'm going to share with you what my colleagues at NBC are tired of hearing me say. I always say I'm governed by the UFO

theory. The unforeseen will occur.

And it's very hard to envision that. Donald Trump was a perfect example of the UFO theory. No one saw him getting as far as he did.

My line has been recently there were pundits all over Washington who look like they're in the American embassy as the Iranians were taking over.

They're taking their columns from a year ago and stuffing them in a burn furnace because they were so dismissive of him.

But here he is, about to be the nominee and a lot of establishment Republicans just last week said, well, he's our nominee and I'm going to

endorse him and then they find that he takes after a federal judge in what can only be described as racist terms, despite his denial that that was the


So there's always something new going on, breaking out almost every week that will have an impact not just on the nomination process but on the

general election. My best advice is that we will get through these two conventions. We'll see how tumultuous they are.

But the big, big play will come in the fall when we have the first debates. I think that we'll probably have larger audiences for those debates than

for the Super Bowl. It's going to be a really epic event, not just here but around the world. And that will help determine where it is likely to


AMANPOUR: Epic, indeed.

And you yourself have had an epic career and an epic struggle with cancer. You have written now in your latest book, "A Lucky Life Interrupted," about

your life but about this disease that just sort of knocked you for a loop three years ago.

How -- I mean, how did you get through it?

Are you in remission?

BROKAW: Well, I, you know, as we now know, you and I know, that there are two ways of looking at cancer. If you don't have it, you can be

sympathetic. You cannot be really empathetic until it enters your body or your family. And I was obviously stunned by the diagnosis. I tried to be

cool and journalistic about what I was expected to go through.

But most important --


BROKAW: -- I had a family that was so supportive around me and almost every day we would learn something new, either about treatment or the

emotional impact that it can have on your family.

And so in my book, what I've tried to convey is the idea that if somebody in the family gets cancer, then all members of the family have to be at the

bedside, in a matter of speaking.

I happened to have an extraordinarily gifted emergency room physician daughter, who is my oldest. She knew the questions to ask. She would be

honest about my condition.

I would say in terms of pain, I'd say oh, I'm a 3 on a scale of 10. She'd stand behind me and say, "He's a 7."

She knew that I was going through more than I was willing to admit at that point.

And then you have to learn how to communicate with doctors. You have to be very tough, journalistic, if you will, say, wait a minute. Back up. I

don't understand that.

When you get diagnosed with cancer, your mind reels in several different directions. You're not hearing everything that they say. They turn

around, leave the room and go back to the laboratory to work on your case.

And you're left wondering, is this going to be fatal?

Am I going to be able to deal with this with drugs only?

Am I going to have to go through stem cell?

There are lots of questions. So what's been so encouraging to me as a result of this book, a lot of hospitals are handing it out to their senior

residents and saying to them, "We can learn to communicate better."

AMANPOUR: Well, you know, Tom Brokaw, you are always communicating better than most. So thank you very much indeed for joining us tonight and good


BROKAW: Thank you so much, Christiane. It's always a pleasure to be with you.

AMANPOUR: You, too.


AMANPOUR: And after a break, we turn to a leader playing in a different ring, imagining a world without The Greatest. Muslim prayers for a

quintessential American hero, Muhammad Ali.




AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, the U.S. presidential election has been notable for the angry and divisive, even racist rhetoric about Hispanics

and Muslims.

But imagine an America whose greatest sporting heroes embraced Islam: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and, of course, Muhammad Ali, who died six days ago.

Two days of funeral services are underway in accordance with the champ's personal wishes. Fans and mourners joined in an Islamic prayer ceremony on

Thursday for Ali at Freedom Hall, the very site of his last hometown fight in 1961.

And he went on to fight for civil rights at home and around the world. At his funeral tomorrow, world leaders, such as President Clinton and Jordan's

King Abdullah will mix with stars and athletes to lay the Louisville Lip to rest and to eulogize the man, who was born Cassius Clay, became Muhammad

Ali and ended up simply The Greatest.

That's it for our program tonight. Good night from London.