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CNN'S AMANPOUR

ISIS Calls for Ramadan Attacks; Stopping the Lone Wolves; Iraqi Army Fights for Control of Fallujah; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 14, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight on the program, the ISIS call for Ramadan attacks are heeded. A police commander and his partner in

France killed the day after the worst terror attack on U.S. soil since 9/11. I'm going to be speaking with a French senator and ask how it could

happen and she fears can be yet to come.

Also: while celebrating attacks abroad, ISIS being squeezed at home. Our own Ben Wedeman will have the latest for us from Iraq.

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HOLMES: And good evening, everyone, welcome to the program, I'm Michael Holmes sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.

Well, as Orlando reels from the worst mass shooting in American history, we hear a harrowing account from a survivor.

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ANGEL COLON, ORLANDO SHOOTING SURVIVOR: We just grabbed each other. We started running and, unfortunately, I was shot about three times in my leg.

So I had fallen down.

But, unfortunately, I hear him come back. And he is shooting everyone that's already dead on the floor and making sure they're dead. I was able

to peek over, and I can just see him shooting at everyone.

And I can hear the shotguns closer and I look over and he shoots the girl next to me and I'm just there laying down, I'm thinking, I'm next, I'm

dead.

So I don't know how, by the glory of God, he shoots towards my head but it hits my hand and then he shoots me again and it hits the side of my hip. I

had no reaction. I was prepared to just stay there laying down so he won't know that I'm alive.

HOLMES (voice-over): Forty-nine people were killed that night at the hands of one man, Omar Mateen.

It is this dangerous lone wolf scenario that is worrying and growing more across the globe. In France last night, another ISIS-inspired man.

Larossi Abballa, he fatally stabbed a commander before holding the man's companion and son hostage. During the standoff, the 25-year-old French-

born extremist killed the woman who worked as a civil servant.

Sickeningly, he broadcast part of it on Facebook and threatened to turn the Euro soccer tournament into a, quote, "cemetery."

With me now is French senator Joelle Garriaud-Maylam. She is joining us now from our Paris bureau.

And, Senator, thanks for doing so. This man responsible for this horrible attack on the police officer and his partner, he was under active

investigation by French authorities.

He had been sentenced to a three-year term for recruiting fighters for jihad.

Are you concerned that someone with that sort of history was even on the streets or not being more closely watched?

JOELLE GARRIAUD-MAYLAM, FRENCH SENATOR: Of course, it's extremely worrying. The point is of this (INAUDIBLE) investigation (INAUDIBLE)

didn't seem to present any risk.

But you know it says something extremely important. We need to invest more in (INAUDIBLE) techniques. We know these people practice what they call

the taxula (ph), the dissimulation, they try to act normal in order not to increase observation and suspicion. And so we need to look into it much

more carefully from here on.

HOLMES: And I suppose these non-directed, if you like, these self- organized attacks, perhaps even carried out by people who have had no communication with others, I mean, is it even possible to prevent?

In France, you have thousands of people suspected in various ways.

GARRIAUD-MAYLAM: That's exactly. Yes. We have 10,000 people on the list on (INAUDIBLE). It's almost impossible to very carefully (INAUDIBLE) the

behavior of everyone observed. (INAUDIBLE) much more police forces, many more people, much more intelligence.

But this is a very worrying effect. We are facing a totally different kind of foe. These people use the networks and they try to get into the brain

of some weak person (INAUDIBLE) to persuade them that they're going to have their three minutes of fame and these people, in a way, seem almost free --

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GARRIAUD-MAYLAM: -- to choose their target and to act the way they want to act, provided it's done under the name of jihad (INAUDIBLE).

And you know, it's so interesting to see how the caliphate is not working within its territory, having many difficulties and it's trying to use all

these social network and all the connections to grow, to try to commit murder. So more symbolic in any possible way, like this parliament.

For months, they want to attack the nations (INAUDIBLE) orders; they want to fight on the French population. But we won't be fighting. We know very

well what the end gap if we fight them, be the end.

HOLMES: This attack specifically and chillingly mentioned Euro 2016, the football tournament, said it would be a symmetry.

First of all, do you think those threats are specific or more general?

And how worried are you about the rest of the tournament?

GARRIAUD-MAYLAM: Well, it could happen everywhere. But my understanding of them -- and I have been studying them a long time and their behavior --

is that they are total cowards. They want to strike in the most harminous (sic) way as possible but they are also afraid. They always look, hoping

to escape.

And in this plan, I really don't feel this tournament, for which we have put extreme emphasis on security, is a trick. It's extremely well

protected. That's also part of the problem. I mean, all policemen are very tired of (INAUDIBLE) and being on the road and acting in a preventive

way for a long time. But (INAUDIBLE) they are extremely motivated and I'm absolutely sure nothing will happen to end the tournament. I (INAUDIBLE) I

think (INAUDIBLE).

HOLMES: Everyone hopes so. French senator Joelle Garriaud-Maylam, thank you so much, join us there from Paris. We appreciate your time.

Well, the French assailant said he was responding to a call for attacks during Ramadan from ISIS spokesman Abu Mohammad al-Adnani.

And President Barack Obama in the U.S. has just made it clear that the Orlando shooter was, indeed, a lone wolf.

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BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We currently do not have any information to indicate that a foreign terrorist group directed the attack

in Orlando.

It is increasingly clear, that, however, the killer took in extremist information and propaganda over the Internet. He appears to have been an

angry, disturbed, unstable young man who became radicalized.

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HOLMES: And that is a difficult enemy to fight.

So what can be done to stop them?

Joining me now from London, Michael Clarke, an advisor to the British Parliament Joint Committee on National Security and Strategy.

Thank you for being with us, sir.

As ISIS loses territory -- and the senator touched on this, too -- as they lose territory in their so-called caliphate, is this the new battlefield,

Western soft targets, civilians, the enemy not overseas but their own radicalized citizens?

MICHAEL CLARKE, SECURITY ADVISER TO BRITISH PARLIAMENT: Yes, to a degree. ISIS, rather like air in a balloon. If you push them in one place, they

will try to come out again in another. So they've got three or four other areas. They have got a presence in Libya, they're under pressure there; a

big presence in Sinai; some presence in Afghanistan.

But you are absolutely right: in calling for anybody who supports isis to do something in their home countries. I mean, Adnani that you mentioned in

your intro there, started making these claims in 2014. And he had a very graphic way of expressing it.

He says find a Westerner, he said, push them off a cliff. Run into them with your car. Stab them, do something.

And that's -- that call is out there now. It's a call that Al Qaeda made not quite so stridently back in 2007-2008, through their "Inspire"

magazine. But this call going out from ISIL now seems to have triggered something, certainly within Europe and the United States.

HOLMES: And worryingly, as we say, the attacker in France, the attacker in Orlando, both born in their respective countries and, again, you know, this

is true of someone not in direct contact with ISIS or some other group, even if that is someone known to authorities. You cannot surveil everyone.

There's no easy answer here.

But is there an answer at all?

CLARKE: No, the answer is structural. You are absolutely right. You can't put surveillance on everybody. To have one person under 24/7

surveillance takes 30 or 40 officers, for obvious reasons when you start to think about it. So the security services, however big they are, unless

you're talking about an East German --

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-- Stasi organization in a small country, then it simply can't be done. And so you have to deal with this in a more structural way, which is to try

to create an awareness among the communities, particularly the communities from where these people come, that anyone who is behaving in a slightly

strange way, at least that there is some concern about them, at least something is done to inform the authorities about this.

But the fact is also that this sort of call that Adnani has put out encourages, if you like, the mentally disturbed and the psychopaths.

People with psychopathic tendencies almost always want to be famous. And the way to be famous is either to kill somebody famous or to commit an act

of tremendous evil of some sort.

And one quick way at the moment to commit an act of evil is to shout "Allahu Akbar" before you do it and to pretend that you are a part of the

ISIL organization.

HOLMES: It's interesting that you mentioned al-Adnani, "strike them with a car, stab them, push them off a cliff."

It brings me to Orlando. It's not a problem Europe has at the moment and hopefully won't have. But gun availability in the U.S., again an issue

here. Even if a person is on a watch list, on a no-fly list, that person cannot be stopped from getting a weapon in the U.S.

And the pro-gun lobby protects that right.

Do you think -- how does that, A, help the terrorists -- and the answer is pretty obvious?

And, B, do you think it's likely to change?

CLARKE: I don't think it's likely to change in the United States but you know that better than me.

But it's interesting. We saw this phenomenon in Pakistan about 20 years ago. There were killings in Pakistan, religiously motivated killings,

usually with handguns or knives. And then AK-47s began to be freely available. And suddenly whole bus queues were being mown down in these

sorts of killings.

The point about automatic weapons, is that want a murderer can do with a handgun, somebody can create a mass killing with, in a short space of time.

And in the United Kingdom here, it's widely acknowledged that because automatic weapons are very hard to get hold of, weapons in general are not

very easy to get hold of, but automatic weapons particularly difficult to get hold of in the United Kingdom, has meant that we've had a different

sort of history over the last few years.

We've had killings. We've had attacks. But nothing quite as mass as this since 2005 with the London tube bombings.

HOLMES: You've written about how China uses fear of terrorism to justify increased state power. I'm wondering as you observe what's happening in

the U.S., do you see a risk of that as you see this presidential campaign unfolding, using tragedies, crimes like Orlando as a tool to further

political or other agendas?

What are the risks involved from your studies?

CLARKE: There are always risks because, one, insofar as there is a philosophy of terrorism, many terrorists don't have a philosophy. They're

just in love with the violence.

But insofar as there is a philosophy, it's a very clear one, which is that to create terrorist acts, create a violent backlash so that the state

overreacts; use the overreaction to create a sense of victimization among certain communities and then use that to then move on to some sort of

conquest, some sort of victory.

And so the terrorist relies on the fact that the state will overreact. And of course in the wake of a terror attack like Orlando or like the London

bombings or the bombings, the attack in India, of course, people are very, very angry. Of course they're angry. Of course they want to see action.

But it's very important because this is when liberal societies are tested, this is when they're tested most severely.

Can they react in a calm, clear way?

Can they react in terms of the long term and not give way to the understandable short-term anger?

In that respect, the Andres Breivik in Norway, man who committed terrible acts of murder and massacre, the Norwegians were an object lesson to the

rest of us in dealing with him in a very civilized way, which has done them a lot of good.

HOLMES: I'm curious; I put to you the other problems that obviously exist in the United States that in many ways favor the terrorists.

What is the U.K. doing right?

CLARKE: Well, I think we have a different sort of problem. So our problem of terrorism doesn't have the same element of violence. We have a large

contest strategy, which has a prevent strand to it, which is trying to get all the communities on side and that's, you know, not that easy and it's

taking some time.

Our own Muslim community, to begin with, took a long time to admit that they had a problem. It wasn't until really 2005-2006 that they admitted

that there was a problem at all.

But it's a long-term process. And it's very important to us that we don't regard this as a war on terror. We say the terrorists are criminals. So

we criminalize them. We don't want to give them the victory of or the respect of being warriors or being somehow soldiers in a bigger battle.

We say, no, no, you're criminals. And we're going to treat you like criminals, which means that we're not going to get too exercised about

reactions. We're going to react to you as if are you are violent criminals, which, indeed, many of them actually are.

HOLMES: Right, murderers, not martyrs, and that being the rule.

I wanted to ask you one other thing and that was this case in Paris, one of the most chilling things about it was this use of Facebook --

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HOLMES: -- live. You had this guy going live from the murder scene with a child in the background.

How do you see the evolution of social media, I mean, the strength or the weaknesses of the Internet when it comes to ability to connect everywhere?

CLARKE: Yes. That's what this aballa, this man, aballa, did. And it is one of the modern phenomena of terrorism, that they use social media as

part of their strategy.

Remember, the philosophy is kill one, frighten a thousand. Also, psychopaths want to be famous. So they want to put it on social media. We

had the same here when gunner Lee Rigby was beheaded in the street, the second successful terrorist attack in Britain in the last 20 years.

Adebowale and Adebolajo, the two assassins, again, they did the same sort of thing. They wanted everybody to see, they wanted to broadcast it.

It was as if they had scored a goal in a football match. There is an element of psychopathic behavior here, which the professionals of the

terrorist organizations and the professionals of ISIL know how to use.

And it's very important that the authorities in all of our countries get on top of this and actually are able to counteract these dreadful images on

social media, because they appeal to the deeper side of others, who -- I mean the nastier sides of others, who actually want to see these things.

HOLMES: Michael Clarke, adviser to the British Parliament on matters of security, fascinating. Thanks so much for your thoughts there.

Well, as we try to come to grips with the increasing threat of the so- called lone wolf attacks, around the world, thousands of people coming together to pay their respects to the victims of the Orlando massacre,

including the London Gay Men's Chorus, with this incredible tribute.

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HOLMES: Extraordinary.

Up next, we're going to hear from our own correspondent, who has been with the Iraqi army near Fallujah, meeting with them and some of the many

civilians who have fled for their lives. We'll be right back.

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HOLMES: Welcome back to the program, everyone.

The battle for Fallujah in Iraq is forcing a growing number of people to flee the city -- or at least those who are able flee. The International

Organization for Migration says more than 43,000 people have been displaced from Fallujah so far.

But Iraqi forces say they have detained about 1,000 of those people that they suspect could be members or sympathizers of ISIS.

CNN senior international correspondent Ben Wedeman has been with the Iraqi army near Fallujah, joins us from Baghdad.

And, Ben, I know you have been talking to some of those who fled. Let's start with that humanitarian issue. You saw civilians who fled Fallujah.

What did they tell you?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, they're talking how hard it was to live under ISIS. One woman said her

children hadn't eaten bread in three months. Another young girl, only 10 years old, was telling me that she wanted to go back to school. She hasn't

been to school in 2.5 years, that the only education --

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WEDEMAN: -- they got from ISIS was how to be good Muslims.

And she told me, quite honestly, she said, "What kind of Muslims are they going around, cutting people's throats?"

But what we've also heard is tales of abuse by Iraqi forces of some of those people leaving. Now we do know that , just like the Americans did

when they were here, that when they go into a hostile village, they will separate the men and the teenage boys from the rest of the population for

what's called security screening.

But we talked to one man, who very clearly had marks from where his hands were cuffed and the cuffs went right into his skin. He's got great big

scars around his wrists.

Other men showing me, for instance, one man had lost part of his ear, he said, that was taken off by with pliers by not the Iraqi army but the so-

called popular mobilization units that are the militias that have been backing up the Iraqi forces.

But you do have, as you said, 43,000 people who have fled Fallujah. Many of them are living in these isolated camps in just the wilderness. There

is no other way to describe it. It is hot. It is dusty. They're short of water and supplies. But, as many people said, it's better to be there than

in Fallujah.

HOLMES: And, Ben, what do you see as the military strategy when it comes to Fallujah?

It's been fairly slow going on the ground. You've still got civilians inside, ISIS entrenched with all that entails in terms of booby traps and

the like.

What do you see as the plan?

This is the strategy, to go slow?

WEDEMAN: Well, what we saw initially when this offensive began on the 22nd, 23rd of May was there was a mass of forces that cleared all the

villages and towns around Fallujah.

Now the approach is the city is completely cut off. It is isolated. And what we saw today was huge columns of smoke, black smoke rising from

Fallujah. There were occasionally helicopters flying overhead. I think they're just going to grind ISIS down with steady bombardment, hoping that

more civilians will be able to leave the city and eventually push in.

But my impression is, they're not in a great big hurry. They just want to wear ISIS down. They're hoping that, for instance, we're already hearing

stories of some members of ISIS themselves simply throwing down their weapons, trying to mix in with the civilian population, giving up the fight

because it does appear that, at this point, it's really only a matter of time.

But how much time, nobody really knows before ISIS is crushed in Fallujah.

HOLMES: Right. And, you know, you witnessed an armored convoy, a large one, heading north towards Mosul.

Did that surprise you?

What did you make of that?

One would have thought perhaps that would dilute resources.

What do you think?

WEDEMAN: Well, we asked the Iraqi officials, including the Iraqi defense minister, why they were doing this with the Fallujah battles still ongoing.

And he said, we want to show that we can fight on more than one front simultaneously.

Certainly, when you go to Fallujah, you do see quite a lot of armor, quite a lot of men around the city. What we saw, this was more than 300

vehicles, tanks, Humvees, armored personnel carriers, headed north.

Now there's still -- focus at the moment is really Fallujah. But I think the military, the Iraqi government sees this as an opportunity. Now that

we've seen, we're seeing ISIS losing ground in Syria and Libya, to really press this, perhaps a psychological offensive more than a military

offensive at the moment.

And what they told us is that this force heading north is not intended to go to Mosul to try to retake Mosul. The point is to sort of recreate the

same strategy that we saw in Fallujah: surround the city, take over the towns and villages around it and then prepare for the much more difficult

battle.

And it will be a very difficult battle to retake Mosul itself.

HOLMES: And a lot of hearts and minds, a lot more hearts and minds to win in a place like Mosul.

Ben Wedeman, great reporting as always there in Baghdad for us.

All right. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, a much needed moment of international camaraderie. The Euro 2016 tournament has

been marred by hooligan violence as you may have seen. But some fans are fighting back -- with song. That's when we come back.

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HOLMES: And finally tonight, imagine a world where sing-alongs can drown out hooligans.

With a little help from Abba, these scenes on the streets of Paris are restoring our faith in the beautiful game -- or at least in fans of the

game because instead of throwing chairs and smashing beer bottles, these Swedish and Irish football fans united in song ahead of their teams' battle

on the pitch.

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HOLMES (voice-over): Having the time of their lives, belting out Abba's "Dancing Queen." Perhaps Russian and English fans can take a page out of

their songbook.

The Swedes and the Irish doing it much better, weren't they, seen clashing with each other there on the terraces, especially Russia has been told they

will be kicked out of Euro 2016 if their fans don't behave.

So go on, be a "Super Trooper, "Take a Chance" on each other and maybe "The Winner" will take it all if there is "Something in the Air That Night."

Well, I can hear the distant drums of "Fernando." So that'll have to do it for our program tonight. And remember, you can listen to our podcast, see

us online at amanpour.com follow me on Twitter @HolmesCNN. Thanks for watching and goodbye from Atlanta.

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