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Ex-wife of Orlando Gunman Speaks Out; Killer Told Wife of Interest in a Terror Attack; Hillary Clinton Wins Final Primary in DC; GOP Leaders Distance Themselves from Trump's Muslim Ban Again On Being Gay and Muslim. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired June 14, 2016 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:10] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN "Breaking News."
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news.
What exactly did the wife of the Orlando nightclub gunman know?
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon in Orlando.
Law enforcement zeroing in on her. Sources are telling CNN that Omar Mateen's wife noticed violent changes in his behavior. That he told her of his interest in carrying out Jihad, that she tried to talk him out of it. But the key question, did she know about Mateen's plans to massacre patrons at Pulse nightclub? And could she face charges?
I want to begin tonight, this hour with CNN's Brian Todd and Jessica Schneider who are at in Fort Pierce, Florida.
Brian, to you first. A lot of new information tonight about Omar Mateen leading up to the shooting. Bring us up to date on what you know.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, what we've just been told by two law enforcement officials talking to CNN that Omar Mateen, according to them, visited gay chat rooms online. It's not clear exactly why he did this.
According to these officials, they're not sure if he did it for surveillance purposes or for personal reasons.
Also, earlier tonight, Don, we're told by law enforcement officials that he visited the Disney Springs Complex. That's a shopping and dining complex in the entire, you know, within the entire Disney complex.
He visited that a couple of times at least between June 1st and June 6th. That coincides with the gay celebrations there during that week.
So we know that he did go to the Disney complex. He went to Pulse, the nightclub, a few times at least in the days and months leading up to the attacks. But we're told by law enforcement officials that he did visit the Disney Springs complex during the week of June 1st to June 6th, just a few days before the attacks.
What's interesting about all of this in his activities in the gay community is so far there do not appear to be any reports of any gay men saying that he had sexual contact with them.
So the big question tonight is when he was involved in these activities in the gay community, was he doing it for surveillance purposes or was he doing it for personal reasons?
Some of that may come out in the days and weeks ahead, Don.
LEMON: Jessica Schneider, the other big news today is on Mateen's wife. She is now the target of the investigation.
What more do you know?
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Don. Her name is Noor Salman. And she was married to the gunman in 2011. They have a 3- year-old son. And she's being investigated and interviewed by the FBI.
She actually left her apartment complex here in the middle of the night, and now we know that she's telling the FBI that she noticed a violent change in her husband. And also the fact that he expressed his desire to wage Jihadist attacks.
But she's telling the FBI she tried to dissuade him and also that she didn't know the specifics of these attacks.
However, it's important to note that she is telling them that she went with her husband, the gunman, to the Pulse nightclub. She also went to the Disney Springs Resort which Brian talked about. But she said she didn't know any of the specifics. She didn't know that he wanted to wage attacks.
So right now the FBI is trying to sort through what she is saying. The fact that she said she didn't know specific details and trying to decide exactly what to do next.
LEMON: So the question is will the FBI charge her? If so, with what, Jessica?
SCHNEIDER: Yes, Don, it's quite possible. And if they do charge her because she knew of the specific acts he was planning and didn't say anything, the exact charge would be misprision of a felony. That's deliberately concealing the fact that you know that someone is going to commit a crime.
It does carry a somewhat weighty sentence. In one case, in fact, the Charleston gun shooter, his friend was charged with the same thing, misprision of a felony and it was a maximum of three years in prison. So this is a very lofty offense if it's proven. That she knew about this. She knew about the specific actions he planned to take and didn't do anything about it, didn't tell law enforcement. She could in fact be charged with that. But that all was remain to be seen at this int.
LEMON: Jessica, Brian, thank you very much.
Joining me now in an exclusive live interview is Sitora Yusufiy, the ex-wife of the nightclub gunman Omar Mateen.
Thank you so much for joining us.
How are you doing?
SITORA YUSUFIY, OMAR MATEEN'S EX-WIFE: Thank you.
I'm good. How are you?
LEMON: I know it's -- I know it's -- well, I wish we could have met under better circumstances.
I know this is a very difficult time for you. And we greatly appreciate your insight here. So you were married to him. But your entire relationship only lasted for about four months.
You met him on MySpace. You were married pretty soon after.
How does a girl from New Jersey meet a guy from Florida online, and then decide to get married so quickly? Was there any courtship?
YUSUFIY: There was, you know. I mean, he came to visit me a few times before he brought his parents over to ask for my hand. But when we first met on MySpace, since then we have been talking a lot. Because, you know, like I said, before, before our actual marriage, he was a charming, funny guy.
[23:05:15] LEMON: When you moved to Florida to live with him, what was he like?
YUSUFIY: After our marriage, shortly after, about a month, until a month it was fine. It was a normal relationship. It was going OK. But then I started noticing his emotional outbursts, and his instability and his anger and his violence and the way he would shake when he would get angry. And it evolved to abuse and about a month and a half to two months.
LEMON: And you said that your family actually had to come and save you?
YUSUFIY: Right. Because, you know, I knew that his dream was to become a police officer. And even though I was really feeling tortured and trapped and needing to get out, I didn't have it in me to press charges on him because I thought that even if we would not work, I would still want him to follow his dream and to live his life in peace. But the abuse only evolved, then it got worse. And I was really miserable. And my parents only found out about it by themselves. So that's when they scheduled to come and take me away.
They didn't schedule to come and take me away. They just scheduled to come and visit me. But when they came to visit me, they saw that I was miserable and they saw finally that he kept me hostage on the last day of their stay there. So that's when they came and intervened.
LEMON: OK. So let me ask you this. You said that you felt tortured.
Was there physical violence? Did he -- explain to us.
YUSUFIY: Yes, definitely torture. Definitely physical violence.
For instance, one of the first times I believe, if I remember correctly, was in a supermarket when we would go in and he would go into a certain aisle to look for something and I would go into a different aisle to look for something else, and all of a sudden I would hear my name being yelled out. And he would be calling my name throughout the supermarket. And I came to him saying I'm right here.
He grabbed my wrist and he dug his finger nails in between my veins and made me surrender, and told me to not go far from him ever again.
LEMON: And you said he...
YUSUFIY: That was one of the first instances.
LEMON: ...kept you hostage?
YUSUFIY: You know, every time I would try to call my family, he would actually abuse me while I would be on the phone with them. And I would try my best to talk to them so I could hear their voice. But, you know, try to mask it, because I didn't want them to worry either.
I remember one time when I was speaking to my mother and she was asking me if I'm OK because she heard and she felt that I wasn't. And that's when he slapped me and the phone fell off my hand and it broke.
LEMON: You know, I asked his father about some of the comments that you had made to the press. And here's what he said.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, his ex-wife said that he had mental issues and that he was obsessive and she -- and her family had to rescue her after four months of marriage.
SEDDIQUE MIR MATEEN, ORLANDO GUNMAN'S FATHER: They were married for some time. And if she had a problem, why she didn't come to me?
LEMON: She never told you about a problem?
MATEEN: Yes. No. Now he's dead and she gets some reputation or something personal grudge if she had. So if she has a problem, why as a father of Omar, why didn't she come to me and say, hey, this is a problem that you want to talk to your son? So why?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So you didn't tell your own family.
Did you tell him about your problems with Omar?
YUSUFIY: Well, of course not. I'm not going to go to a man and tell him that his son is a monster that is beating me if I couldn't tell my own parents so that they wouldn't worry.
However, his mother and his sister had seen him try to attack me, and his sister was the one that protected me. So, you know, he can't really say that he didn't know because his wife knew and so did his daughter.
[23:10:17] LEMON: So the FBI is looking into reports today that Omar may have reached out to men who attended the Pulse nightclub on the gay dating site or some gay dating sites.
There's been a great deal of discussion on CNN and other places about Omar's real motivation and what that was.
What do you think it was?
YUSUFIY: You know, a lot of the questions that I had back when I was with him, when we were together, and I was getting abused not able to understand why he was treating me this way and why he was behaving this way. They are somewhat being answered by everything that's being uncovered so far.
Because, to me, personally, with everything that I went through and everything that I saw and experienced daily, it makes sense because he did have a different side of him that he could not open up to his father about, the fact that he liked to go to night clubs, the side that he love to drink.
These were not things that were welcome in his family's structure at all. And especially any indication of homosexuality.
LEMON: So do you think that he had gay tendencies?
YUSUFIY: You know, I -- I'm not going to lie. I definitely questioned it in my own head when I was with him and wondered if he is because he would do a lot of things -- little things, you know, but that would definitely make any woman question if he was or not.
YUSUFIY: You know, it was -- I can't really explain it, because it was the way that he would behave that, you know, normal straight men wouldn't.
And he was very -- he loved to look at himself. He loved to take pictures of himself which some straight men do, too, but to a certain extent.
LEMON: Did he -- when you said he liked to go out to clubs, did that include gay clubs?
YUSUFIY: He had confessed to me that he had a past that involved a lot of, you know, night life and dancing and drinking. And he did not, as from what I remember, use the words gay nightclub, but, you know, I don't know.
LEMON: What do you mean? Are you hedging there? You don't know? There is something you're not saying.
YUSUFIY: No. He never -- I don't ever remember him saying that I used to go to night clubs. But he definitely used to have a night life. He definitely was very much in that club scene. And using -- you know, drinking, using steroids and all that stuff that, you know, a lot of American, nice, young people go through. So I didn't make much of it at that time or thought it was gay clubs.
LEMON: There have -- I read a report that his father according to you or someone, maybe it's your current husband, said that his father would make comments about his sexuality around you?
LEMON: What did he say?
YUSUFIY: He -- I remember one occasion when we were in the living room and I wasn't really listening too much. I know him and his father were talking. But I definitely heard his father say and call him a cooney, which in Farsi means gay.
And I didn't really pay attention to it at that time because I don't know, maybe he was joking. But Omar laughed about it. So that was that one incident.
LEMON: Did his father or the family have a strong sense or did they exhibit any homophobic behavior in your estimation? Did they say things that were homophobic?
YUSUFIY: Well, they didn't have to because, you know, everything in their family structure was about perfection.
[23:15:00] It's about, you know, in the Islam religion, homosexuality is not that tolerated. And especially when somebody is a political figure as prominent as his father was, it is especially. It would really looked down upon and disgraced and could change the entire family just knowing that one person in your family is homosexual.
So it is definitely not welcome. And, you know, they definitely express their intolerance and disagreed with it with that way of life.
LEMON: We talked -- we've been speaking a lot on this show about homophobia and the Muslim community.
What are your thoughts on that?
YUSUFIY: You know, I will not lie and say that there's no intolerance because there is. And there is very low tolerance to homosexuality in the Islam religion. And I think that with this happening, it's time to reflect and to change some things and to change perception of things.
And it's not just in Islam, it's in many other religions also. But it is definitely a deep issue that has been in Islam, the intolerance of homosexuality.
LEMON: And when you hear word that he pledged allegiance in the 911 call to ISIS, and that he may have become radicalized, is that -- what do you think of that?
Did you ever witness anything like that?
YUSUFIY: You know, from knowing him -- no.
I never -- from being with him, I never heard any praise to any organization, any radicalism. However, I would notice when he would get in his violent behavior that he would say things, anything that he could find that would hurt the most and would have the most negative influence.
LEMON: You hadn't spoken to him in a while, correct?
LEMON: Did you know his current wife and child?
YUSUFIY: I had no idea until this incident happened that he was remarried and had a child.
LEMON: What do you want people -- you said a lot about him.
Is there anything that you want to say to the world who is watching now about him?
YUSUFIY: You know, I just wish that we can all look into our own soul for the truth and not resort to judgement without truly understanding the motive and this person.
Because from knowing him from seven years ago, I knew how unstable he was. And it doesn't surprise me that he might be gay. And it doesn't surprise me that he was leading two totally different lives and was in such deep conflict within himself.
So I just hope that people without making rash judgements on one another can truly understand that this is one insane person that did such a tragic thing.
LEMON: Yeah. Well, it's not an easy thing to do to come on and talk about this, live. Sitora Yusufiy, thank you so much for your candor. I appreciate it.
YUSUFIY: Thank you.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
[23:22:35] LEMON: Back in Orlando now.
Law enforcement sources telling CNN that Omar Mateen's wife told the FBI that he wanted to carry out a terrorist attack though she denies any knowledge of his plans.
I want to bring in now Dr. Stephen Seager, a psychiatrist who's co- producer of "Shattered Families: The Collapse of America's Mental Health System" and Deborah Day, a licensed psychologist and a forensic psychologist.
I'm so glad to have both of you here. There is so much to go over from the victims recounting their stories to the ex-wife talking about this killer.
DEBORAH DAY, LICENCED PSYCHOLOGIST, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Right.
LEMON: So as you heard, you know, the wife, she said I wouldn't be surprised if he's gay. He was so conflicted. Everything was so deep down inside that he stifled it down.
What do you make of that?
DAY: Well, I think a lot of times people are conflicted about their sexuality and they use anger to cover it up. They use other mechanisms. But it's so internalized that it comes out in really different ways that we're not expecting.
LEMON: Dr. Seager, were you able to listen? And what did you make of the confusion and the conflict that she spoke of?
DR. STEPHEN SEAGER, PSYCHIATRIST: I was. But what I wanted to point out, too, is I think there is something that no one mentioned before, and I've listened to her other interviews. She used the word bipolar and insane.
And I'm not saying he's bipolar. I've never met him. I'm just saying that there are a lot of people who are confused sexually and confused religiously.
I came from Utah and they kind of export that in Utah. But it's not a lot of people go over the edge. And I think he may have had some sort of mood element to his problem, which kind of takes the lid off those conflicts.
I think there is something -- there is another piece, there is another shoe to drop. And I think it's going to be some sort of serious narcissism and some sort of mood disorder that is buried in there that went untreated. That's just my guess.
DAY: I think we are guessing. We don't know.
LEMON: Because he's not your patient. You never saw him.
DAY: Right. We've never seen him. And we don't know if he has some unidentified mental health history yet.
LEMON: Why do you think he turned, Deborah, to the internet for support? And you know, how do -- you think that could have led to this?
DAY: Sure. I think that if you don't have support in your family or your community for your thoughts and your feelings --
LEMON: As the ex-wife spoke of.
DAY: Right, you turn to places that will listen to you and your validated.
So Dr. Seager, you said that he wasn't a psychopath or a sociopath?
DR. SEAGER: No. I don't think so.
If you look at the history, the history of sociopathy is repeated arrests and repeated violations. It's never one big unexpected explosion. And psychopaths are, you know, serial killers, repeat terrible things.
This is you have to explain. She says three or four years ago, he was moody, he was violent and he had these episodes of violence. Marked by periods where he was pretty normal. And that is sort of the course of a mood disorder.
[23:25:17] Once again, I think it's just something to keep in the back of your mind. I would never tarnish regular bipolar people. They're not more violent than anybody else.
But in this case if you have these deep-seated conflicts, a lot of times a mood disorder will kind of take the lid off or loosen the lid and allow some crazy thing like this out.
LEMON: But not many people, you know, get upset if you happen to wander down a different aisle than they do in the grocery store and dig their finger nails to her account.
LEMON: That's -- what type of behavior is that?
DAY: Well, that could be abusive behavior. It could be a learned trade in his family dynamics and he learned that violence and aggression is a way to solve problems. So we don't know if it's just a learned behavior.
LEMON: Yes. But that's also controlling, as well, right? He's trying to control her.
DAY: Yes. Like a domestic violence perpetrator. They control every aspect of their partner's life and they try to control their world.
DR. SEAGER: Ye, she's right. I think also there's an element of narcissism in this. And if you listen to the ex-wife's interview carefully, she said he enjoyed taking pictures of himself. He was outgoing. And I think narcissistic insult goes a lot of way toward explaining some of this kind of behavior.
You know, he had a bunch of things piled on him. And I'm in no way excusing what he did. But narcissists don't handle this kind of thing well. They don't handle conflict well. And they react violently as well.
LEMON: Can I talk to you? I don't know if you saw the interview earlier with one of the survivors. Her name is Tiara.
I mean, just an amazing young lady that survived this. And, you know, she's going to have to get some sort of help. As everyone will.
LEMON: Because they saw some things that people don't see on the battlefield.
DAY: Oh, absolutely.
LEMON: Many times. And just, you know, a couple of hours here.
Do you think that she's still in shock?
DAY: Yes. There is that shock, then there is the moving through those processes towards acceptance. But it's all of the things in between that she's never experienced or any of the victims had experienced.
So they're at high risk for developing psychological disorders like post-traumatic stress disorder. So they need interventions now. They need the support of their families and their communities now.
LEMON: Doctors, I appreciate both of you coming on. Thank you so much. We'll have you back again. We appreciate it.
DAY: Thank you.
DR. SEAGER: You're very welcome. Thank you.
LEMON: Up next -- yes, of course. Up next, a visibly angry President Obama slams Donald Trump for what he calls Trump's dangerous mindset and loose talk.
[23:31:45] LEMON: The primary season is now over. Hillary Clinton won Washington, D.C., the Washington D.C. primary, the final contest beating Bernie Sanders.
The two candidates met tonight. The meeting is described as very positive by both of them, but they were not alone. Aides of both Clinton and Sanders were in the room. So again, they are both released statements tonight saying, "It's very positive, nothing happen."
So let's talk about this now with the Radio Host John Phillips, top radio host at KABC who is a Trump Supporter. CNN Political Contributor Van Jones, a former Obama administration official and CNN Political Commentator Carl Bernstein. He's the author of " A Woman in Charge: The Life of Hillary Rodham Clinton."
So, we got that meeting behind, nothing really happened. So you saw the president today, Carl. President Obama and Hillary Clinton, they went straight at Donald Trump with blistering attacks. Look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What Donald Trump is saying is shameful. It is disrespectful to the people who were killed and wounded and their families. And it is yet more evidence that he is temperamentally unfit and totally unqualified to be commander-in- chief.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATE: We now have proposals from the presumptive Republican nominee for president of the United States to ban all Muslims from immigrating to America. We hear language that singles out immigrants and suggest entire religious communities are complicit in violence. Where does this stop?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Carl, did it work? Do they define Trump as a threat?
CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Not only a threat, as you know, I said on this broadcast many, many months ago that Donald Trump is a neo-fascist particularly, with purely (ph) American kind of neo- fascist demagogue. And what he did in his Orlando response speech is the gravest evidence we've seen of it yet and Hillary Clinton and the president answered it yesterday.
But I think we're now at the point in this election where there is one overriding issue and that is, are the American people prepared to elect a neo-fascist demagogue as the Republican nominee and make him the president of the United States?
We've never has a president who espouses (ph) what he does. It's a total break in our Democratic traditions and it's really the coming -- the only issue in this election, I believe.
LEMON: And Van Jones, Donald Trump responded today in a rally down in North Carolina. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And I watched President Obama today and he was more angry at me than he was at the shooter. And many people said that.
One of the folks on television said, "Boy is Trump got under his skin?" But he was more angry and a lot of people have said this, the level of anger, that's the kind of anger he should have for the shooter and these killers that shouldn't be here.
People going to be afraid to go out, they already are. I mean, if you think you feel safer now than you did eight years ago, I think there is probably not anybody in this room that feels that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[23:35:11] LEMON: So, Van Jones, when an attack like Orlando happened, many Americans still unsafe and some believe that we're failing at our attempt to defeat ISIS. Given that, is Hillary Clinton and her record as secretary of state vulnerable?
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: She maybe. I think she can defend her own record. But one thing I think is really sad, if you actually just listen to the President's speech and don't get into the back and forth on the partisanship stuff. He actually announced things that both Trump and Hillary Clinton and the whole country should have been relieved to hear.
He said ISIS despite, you know, what happened with the shooter is on the run. He said 120 ISIS leaders have been killed. You can't take 120 leaders out of any organization without having a big impact. He said they're being economically strangled and they lost half of their territory.
Why isn't Trump pointing out -- oh, wait a minute. I was wrong. I said ISIS has the best of us. It turns out according to our military, our military is doing a good job. Instead, it's this back and forth, ignoring the reality that ISIS has been put on the defensive. That they're now just -- they have these videos that some (ph), let's go and listen to and do terrible things.
But this country is absolutely responding well. Can't we come together and celebrate that we're doing well and more together? Why does everything have to be divisive?
LEMON: Van, in case you didn't know, there is a presidential election going on right now. So -- and there's going to no Kumbayah's (ph) here for quite sometime.
John, a lot to impact here, you know, Van says that Trump announced that, you know, the military is actually doing a good job. And, you know, neo-fascist according to Carl Bernstein. What do you say?
JOHN PHILIPS, TALK RADIO HOST, KABC: Well look, we have an administration that is bent over backwards to give a lot of these people the benefit of the doubt. After Fort Hood, we were told that it was workplace violence. We didn't hear Islamic extremism until very recently.
After the San Bernardino shootings, we were told initially by the "L.A. Times" and others that it was workplace violence and the government waited before they weighed in on that.
There is going to be a backlash among the American people when they see this and they say, "Wait a minute, who am I going to believe, our elected leaders or lying eyes?" And I think Donald Trump is expressing that frustration and he's expressing that outrage with what he said in New Hampshire.
LEMON: All right stay with me, everyone. We'll continue our conversation. We need to get a break and we'll be right back.
[23:41:23] LEMON: And we're back with John Phillips and Van Jones and Carl Bernstein.
So, John, I want to show you this. This is a Bloomberg, a new poll that was released, a national poll tonight.
In a three way race between Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump and Libertarian Gary Johnson, Clinton comes out on top, 49 percent, Trump is 37 percent and Libertarian Gary Johnson at 9 percent. The poll also found that 55 percent of respondents would never vote for Trump and 43 percent said that the same about Hillary Clinton.
What's your reaction to this poll? And by the way, it was taken after those controversial comments about the judge and people think that he may have gotten a hit from that. But, what's your reaction to this poll?
PHILLIPS: Well, it's not surprising. Last week was the worst week of the campaign for Donald Trump. I'd be surprised if his Melania was still voting for him after that disaster.
But the fact of the matter is that these numbers are fluid and they will continue to be fluid because the American people do not feel safe.
I just did three hours on the radio at a gay bar in West Hollywood where just a couple a days after the gay pride festival and parade happened down Santa Monica Boulevard. And people are terrified right now.
People understand that we're making gains in the Middle East. We're making gains across the globe, but they don't feel safe here in the United States. And that is going to be a huge problem for Hillary Clinton and the general. LEMON: Yeah. Speaker Paul Ryan and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell were both asked about Donald Trump today. I want you guys to watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you stand by your support of Donald Trump, Speaker Ryan?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yesterday Donald Trump suggested that the President may have been sympathetic in some way to the terrorist and killer in Orlando. Do you think that was an appropriate thing for him to say?
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MAJORITY LEADER: You know I'm not going to be commenting on the presidential candidate today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So Mr. Bernstein, Speaker Ryan wouldn't answer. I see you chuckling there. But, he did say today, he is still, you know, against Trump's Muslim ban. And Majority Leader Mitch McConnell wouldn't even take questions on it.
BERNSTEIN: I think your Republican leader -- the Republican leaders have been really craving by endorsing Trump. They're going to have a lot to answer for. But also, there is a real weakness in the fact that the President, Hillary Clinton, the Democrats the left have not been willing to address the question and the reality of radical Islamic terrorism.
And until they do, they have not only a political problem, but also a problem with the truth, because what we are seeing is radical Islamic terrorism. It is about a part of Islam.
Barney Frank yesterday finally said the former gay congressman from Massachusetts said there is an Islamic element here.
LEMON: Who is a Democrat.
BERNSTEIN: Right. Yes, the overwhelming majority of Muslims don't do this, but there is clearly sadly an element and the interpretation of Islam that has some currency, some interpretation in the Middle East that can encourages killing people in the name of Islam.
And we've got to face that in the President ought to be saying it and I think he is playing to Donald Trump by not doing it and top of which if Americans Muslims themselves who oppose and hate terrorism don't start getting into the streets and expressing their feelings about this. Donald Trump could lead to a kind of anti-Muslim pogrom in this country. There is an incumbency on the Muslims in this ...
LEMON: Carl, what do you think as we hear moderate Muslims all the time after these that they denounce ... (CROSSTALK)
BERNSTEIN: Yes, we here.
LEMON: ... they want them to have a rally and it is come out in the street?
BERNSTEIN: Yes. I think there's got to be a lot more than just after an incident hearing from Islamic leaders.
[23:45:06] I think Barney Frank also addressed it yesterday. It doesn't mean ...
LEMON: Van, hold on, Van.
BERNSTEIN: Go ahead, but with all due respect ...
LEMON: No, no, I want Van to hold on. I want you to finish.
BERNSTEIN: I think that it is incumbent as it would be on Christian if the Ku Klux Klan was still running around and hanging people in the name of Christianity and hanging black people and saying that they are Christians. I would expect Christians to come out into the streets and say, "The hell with this."
LEMON: OK, stop. All right, stop. So are you saying that President should say radical Islamic terrorism? Is that what you ...
BERNSTEIN: I think they ought to address it for what it is. It is a scourge within ...
LEMON: OK, hold a thought.
BERNSTEIN: ... a certain faith. It's not most Muslims, but I think it's about reality.
LEMON: OK. So, Van, I heard David Gergen tonight saying that even he was in a Reagan administration, Reagan wanted to call Russia (ph) the Evil Empire, Soviet Union Evil Empire. He said no. One of his colleagues told the President that he should do it.
Looking back, David Gergen says now he was wrong, his colleague was right. Reagan did it. We need to know, the American people, what we're up against in calling it the right thing is the right thing to do.
JONES: OK. That -- if there are so many things they already said now that they are just factually wrong, that it's really hard to go back and correct all of it that's why I was trying to get in earlier.
First of all, this is going to be very clear. Moderate Muslims have been screaming about this incessantly, not just when there's an incident. There's a whole organized effort within modern Islam. It never gets any tension. And then people say that you're not doing it.
Also today, one of the main leaders who came out and did that, a main Muslim, was then attacked on the internet and was -- his life was threatened.
BERNSTEIN: I read that.
JONES: So please let's stop the fiction.
BERNSTEIN: It's not a fiction.
LEMON: Your point taken, Van. Point is taken. And your other point -- Van, your point is taken about moderate Muslims and I -- we agree. They do speak out about this. And what's your next point?
JONES: Yeah, that's good. But the other point is this fiction that if only the President would just say radical Islam, radical Islam three times in a row, they're be some magical solution. It's completely false.
This President has been very, very specific and clear going after the part of these extremists that are already threat. But you don't compliment your enemy and insult your friends by calling these thugs Muslims. What they desperately want is to be legitimated as Muslims.
So many of the people it turns out who are going to join ISIS don't know anything about Islam at all. They order a book called "Islam for Dummies." They are just adventurous and thugs and you should not elevate them.
BERNSTEIN: I think the last part is true.
LEMON: All right. That's got to be the last word. Thank you, John. Of course, I'll see you soon. Sorry, you didn't a chance to weigh in on this.
Coming up, we know the gunman visited Pulse several times before the attack, but what was the motive behind those visits? More live from Orlando, that's next.
[23:51:50] LEMON: We're back with our breaking news tonight. The FBI investigating whether Orlando gunman Omar Mateen was actively using gay dating apps before his murderous shooting spree.
Joining me now is Imam Daayiee Abdullah. He is Executive Director of MECCA at the MECCA Institute and Nemat Sadat is an Afghan-American Gay Rights Activist.
Gentlemen, I'm so happy to have this conversation with you. So, let's do it. Imam, you first. Explain what it's like to be openly gay and openly gay Muslim?
IMAM DAAYIEE ABDULLAH, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MECCA INSTITUTE: Well, I can't give you the definitive thing for everybody, but being a Muslim and identifying with being a religious Muslim then being gay is supposed to be against unethical to the faith.
And so what happens quite often is that when one is in a congregation situation, you could feel very sequestered. If your sexuality is not identified, you're still (inaudible) and you never really express yourself fully.
However, if you are identifiable in terms of maybe more feminine in your look and things of this nature, then there are other forms of sequestering and shaming that may take place as well.
LEMON: Nemat, you were the first person to come out publicly in Afghanistan, the first person in Afghanistan. You were -- and you were forced to leave the country because they deemed you to be a national security threat. Tell me about that.
NEMAT SADAT, AFGHAN-AMERICAN GAY RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Yes. So actually I was born in Afghanistan in 1979, but I returned after 32 years in exile in 2012 to be a professor of Political Science at the American University of Afghanistan.
And what happened was I started, you know, facing persecution. People started spreading rumors, passing petitions telling the government that I'm gay and that basically I'm mobilizing a gay movement and that I should be, you know, I should be forced out of the country or if I continue to stay that I should be criminalized, even though I'm a U.S. citizen.
They wanted to try me as an Afghan national and I could have possibly, you know, been received the life sentence or death penalty. Even concerning the fact that Afghanistan is under U.S. occupation it has to abide by international norms, but it's still, the constitution is defined by divine law and the country is under the Sharia law.
99 percent of the population favors Sharia law according to 2013 Pew Research Study. That was the same year that I came out in August of 2013.
So when I came out, you can just imagine, this is the most hostile homophobic country on the planet, because under Sharia law, it means gays must be killed. There's no room for discussion.
In the United States, we have this discussion through interfaith dialogue. LGBT Americans were able to mobilize and win the hearts and minds of people through, you know, teaching them that this is -- teaching them about the science of gay that we are like this. We cannot change within the context of a secular constitution and international human rights conventions.
And -- but in Afghanistan and across the Muslim world, that does not exist. How can you have an interfaith dialogue when the dominant state religion beheads you, hangs you or throws you off of buildings?
[23:55:12] LEMON: So let me ask you this then, because it's not like that gay people don't exist in Afghanistan and the Muslim world. And there are actually that we read about sort of secret gay rituals that people don't talk about even though -- so it's sort of hypocritical what happens. They kill people who maybe openly guy. But then there is sort of secret gay society.
SADAT: Absolutely. Would you -- there is a chaotic underground happening in Afghanistan where because it's unacceptable and that the government hasn't come out and said, because this current government, you know, has stopped murdering gays at the state level, very publicly.
Under the Taliban, yes, those were happening as this execution like we see in Iran and in Saudi Arabia against LGBT community is not happening. But I do have -- I'm in contact with thousand of LGBT Afghans and they tell me that the LGBT community there is being imprisoned, raped, fined, incarcerated, left to languish and the National Director of Security ...
LEMON: Nemat, I have to go.
SADAT: ... calls out and just --yes, and kills people that anybody who tries to promote an LGBT rights movement.
This is what motivated Omar Mateen. He was not able to come out. He was not able to reconcile his sexuality with his face -- faith.
ABDULLAH: Don ...
LEMON: Thank you, Nemat and thank you. I have to go. You know I'll have you back on Imam. You've been on before. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
That's it for us tonight. Thank you so much for watching. Make sure you stay with CNN for our late breaking news on the Orlando massacre. Good night.