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Latest on Orlando Shooter Investigation; Anniversary of Charleston Church Shooting Marked; War on Terror in US; Interview with Deepak Chopra. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired June 17, 2016 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN: -- the deadliest mass murder in U.S. history.
This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.
Omar Mateen putting his finances in order before launching this attack added his wife's name to his life insurance policy and making sure she had access to his bank accounts.
The FBI scrutinizing surveillance video showing the shooting rampage inside Pulse Nightclub. And today, agents visiting the mosque where Mateen prayed looking to speak to anyone who knew him.
I want to begin though with CNN's Drew Griffin who has been investigating this story for us all week long. Drew, what's the latest, what are we learning about the preparations that Omar Mateen made before the shooting?
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: These were in the weeks before, Don, and he was getting the finances in order, if you will. Police now believe that was for he knew what was going to happen during this attack, that he would die.
He had bought his wife some expensive jewelry. He had made sure that she, her name was on several bank accounts apparently, and also that her name was on his life insurance policy. We also know that in April, he had deeded it over for just $10 his portion of a home that was owned I guess jointly by him and his sister. He deeded it over to his sister and brother-in-law for just $10.
Police and law enforcement sources telling us it seems that that was a clear sign that he was not only just planning for the attack, but planning that he would die in the attack, Don.
LEMON: Andrew, you can look back at his schooling, there were warning signs, correct?
GRIFFIN: Yes, I mean, all of the way back from the third grade on, there were behavioral issues, but we just learned tonight very specifically in 2007 at a law enforcement academy in which he was attending, we know -- we knew that he was excelled from that school, and at the same time lost his job with the Department of Correction.
Now it believes that we have gotten records that show that he was actually talking to someone about the potential of bringing a gun to the class. This was in April of 2007, shortly after the Virginia Tech massacre.
Obvious, the students felt very uncomfortable with that kind of talk, it got him expelled from the school, it didn't trigger any, you know, red flags enough so he wouldn't be able to buy a gun or go on the become a security guard, but it did get him kicked out of law enforcement academy.
LEMON: Well, did he do normal things before the shooting, I mean, did he go to his job as a security guard the weekend before the shooting?
GRIFFIN: Yes. He was, his job he was a security guard at a gate, at a guarded community, a gated community, and we know from the company that he showed up for work on Saturday, work his regular shift, they said that shift would have ended mid-afternoon.
And then I know from talking to his father that he came and visited his father just around three o'clock in the afternoon, and his father called it a regular visit, a regular son dropping by to just to say hi. So, he was working. And he was visiting his father. On that day before the night of this terrible tragedy.
LEMON: So, Drew, I understand that you have learned about another person who Mateen spoke to on his cell phone during the attack, and what do you know?
GRIFFIN: Well, yes, Don. This is the last person that we, in the press have been unaccounted for, we know he called 911, we know he called a producer at a local television station, and we know he was posting on Facebook.
Apparently, during the rampage while he was posting on Facebook, a friend noticed that and reached out to him. This friend is in the medical profession we are told, lives or was in Washington, D.C., at the time, and reached out to him.
Making contact of a phone call ensued, and during this entire rampage, sometime between 2 and 4 in the morning, there was a conversation, we're told by the law enforcement sources that conversation centered around the uses of medication, that's all that we could get from our sources other than they investigated this friend.
He has been interviewed, they do not believe he was in any way involved in the attack or the planning of the attack or knew about the attack, he came forward to the police with this information, Don.
LEMON: Drew has been doing an incredible job at reporting this story and investigating all week long. Drew, thank you very much, I appreciate it.
It is one year ago today that another mass shooting shocked this nation. Nine people inside of the Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, South Carolina, shot and killed while studying the bible. Well, tonight, CNN's Brooke Baldwin takes us inside that bible study
room and speaks with survivors, officials, and church leaders. Here's her report.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: On June 17th, 2015, like many other Wednesday nights, a group of people gathered for bible study at Charleston's Mother Emanuel AME Church, one of the largest, oldest black congregations in the south.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLLY SHEPPARD, Charleston SHOOTING SURVIVOR: I stayed that night because my friend was leading the bible study, Myra Thompson, and she asked me to stay originally. I said that I wasn't going to stay.
[22:05:03] BALDWIN: Polly Sheppard was one of 12 members and part of this devout group who welcomed a stranger into their worship. A young white man who had never attended before. Nearly an hour later, as they closed the eyes in prayer, the man unloaded his gun.
BALDWIN: Evil walks into the side door of your church?
SHEPPARD: I have faith that's why I'm still here. I prayed underneath that table and he left me here.
BALDWIN: The gunman told Polly Sheppard that he would let her live, she was one of the five people to survive the massacre one year ago.
CNN was given rare access inside that bible study room, and I spoke exclusively to those left behind. This was the room, this is where he came?
NORVEL GOFF, PASTOR: This is the room. Yes, yes.
BALDWIN: Around the table.
GOFF: Around the table.
BALDWIN: Holding bible study?
GOFF: Yes. And he was invited to the join them.
BALDWIN: Reverend Norvel Goff presides over 30 churches in the district; he left Mother Emanuel just before the gunman entered the church through the side door.
GOFF: I left to go to another meeting and that was about 20 minutes I leave. My understanding the gunman was already in the parking lot.
BALDWIN: A dispatch log details the initial 911 calls from the survivors that night, these chilling words show their pleas for help. Shot pastor. Female is hiding under the table. Male is reloading. The number of shots fired, so many.
Were you sitting around the table or are you in the back?
SHEPPARD: I was around the table, the last table in the back.
BALDWIN: When you prayed under that table, were you asking for something?
SHEPPARD: I was asking that he wouldn't kill all of us. Yes.
BALDWIN: First responders rushed to the scene in mere minutes. That's when Charleston police chief Gregory Mullen got the call.
GREGORY MULLEN, Charleston POLICE CHIEF: I was in my home with my wife preparing to go to bed actually. And when I received the phone call, very quickly I realized something was bad because my deputy chief told me that we had a shooting in the church downtown, and then I'm on the phone talking with the mayor.
JOSEPH RILEY, FORMER Charleston MAYOR: When the police chief called it was about 9.30, and I have to hang up and I went to my closet, and put on a coat and tie, a suit.
RILEY: Because I knew that everything that I said and did had to be perfect. I knew that I had to have complete respect for this church.
ESTHER LANCE, ETHEL LANCE'S DAUGHTER: When you see it coming across the TV, and I was like, oh, that's my mama church.
BALDWIN: Esther Lance was among other family members and friends gathered around the block in a hotel waiting to hear the fate of their loved ones.
When you knew something was wrong at the church, did your know your mom was there at that bible study?
LANCE: I said, listen, tell me the truth, does my mama in that church.
BALDWIN: So, what did you say to those family members behind closed doors?
MULLEN: We explained to them that we had a situation in the church as they were aware of, and at this point, that there were nine people that were deceased.
LANCE: All I could see was the body bag. Because I knew that my mama was gone. My heart was telling me this.
BALDWIN: You knew?
GOFF: We were now in the throes of planning nine funerals, home going celebrations.
RILEY: And so, they deducted that I was there by the sister, father, cousin, and friend and all the ranges of weeping, crying, wailing, moaning, sobbing.
MULLEN: It is a gasp that I will never forget when we -- when we told them that. And at that point Reverend Goff broke out into a song, and everybody was singing together.
BALDWIN: Holding hands and praying.
MULLEN: Holding hands and praying.
BALDWIN: After an intense 14-hour manhunt, police apprehended their suspect, we later learned that the 21-year-old gunman hoped to start a race war.
GOFF: This act of terrorism, racism, and bigotry was the act of the one individual who wanted to create a race riot, and what they found out is that our faith was greater than fear. And that love will always will take hate and we pull together to make sure that how we responded to evil was not with evil.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:10:00] After the break, we're going to talk more about the shooting at Mother Emanuel, and how Charleston has changed in the year since, and we'll hear from the brother of one of the victims.
LEMON: We're going to talk more about the deadly shooting at Mother Emanuel in Charleston with CNN contributor Bakari Sellers, a former member of South Carolina House of Representatives, Douglas Brinkley, CNN presidential historian who is the author "Rightful Heritage and Franklin D. Roosevelt the Land of America," and J.A. Moore who lost his sister Myra Thompson in the shooting.
Thank you so much for joining us. Riaz Patel is a television producer as well, and gay Muslim activist who is in Orlando during this weekend's rampage.
Bakari, we were saying this is the anniversary, this us when you and I met a year ago covering the shooting. And it's an anniversary that we celebrate, but we do mark it and we are, you know, thinking about the victims and people like Myra and her family.
So, J.A., let me start with you. At this exact time one year ago, we didn't know many details, but we did know where the shooting was. Myra Thompson is your sister, and she was killed that night. How are you doing?
J.A. MOORE, COMMUNITY AND RELATIONSHIP DEVELOPER: Yes. It's been rally challenging. But, you know, we have a really, really strong supportive family, a really strong and supportive community. So, although every day is really challenging and tough, I'm doing OK. I'm doing OK.
[22:15:05] LEMON: When a shooting happens like happened in Orlando, when that happens, you know, I spoke to a number of victims over the years, a family members of the victims and they say that they relive it all over again, did that happen with Orlando with you?
MOORE: You know, it was, for me, the day that the shooting in Orlando happened, I was at the Francis Marion Hotel which is less than a mile away from Mother Emanuel speaking to the National Federation of Democratic Women and we were talking about gun control.
And five hours later, the devastating events happened at Orlando, and so for me, it is like, it was so hard and so painful that another senseless act of violence happened here in America. It was -- I mean, it was hard. It was -- it was tough.
LEMON: Yes, I'm sure. I'm sure. Bakari, how is the City of Charleston doing tonight?
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I mean, Charleston is doing great. I was in Charleston earlier today, and you know, I have to say, the city came together. But there is still so much pain. J.A. is a good friend of mine, we visit the bars on King Street often together, but we both understand that what happened that night has challenged us to do at lot more.
I come on the show often and I talk about Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders and that's pretty easy. But the challenge, the real difficult part is having to reach down in your heart and understand that, you know, that faith that overcomes fear, and that love overcomes hate, and that's the difficult part.
And that's what J.A. and I and the rest of the community in Charleston, the mayors and the Jerome Hayward's and all of our friends and family, that's the difficult challenge that we are facing today.
LEMON: The shooting did make a change, because the Confederate Flag came down off of the statehouse in Columbia, just a few weeks later after the shooting. Have you either of you noticed a difference in people's attitude and opinions in South Carolina?
MOORE: Well, I believe that what we have done with the flag coming down, and after this horrendous tragedy, it's now where we're able to talk about racism in an authentic real way. We are talking about it publicly.
I just left Starbucks, and we were having an open conversation about racism, and for me, that's change, but we, like Bakari was saying earlier, I echo that what he was saying earlier, because we have so much work to do, so much work to do.
LEMON: And Douglas, if you are look back, you know, in history when you have these sorts of situations, it's hard for people, J.A. he was saying he has having. You know, a sensible conversation.
Why is it so hard to have, historically, to have sensible conversations about guns without it becoming political, the first answer when you ask a question about it, it's like, well, the democrats or then you do ask question, well, the republicans. It's like -- why is that -- why can't you have a conversation and then sort of leave the politics out of it? DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, because the
National Rifle Association so, you know, dominates the Republican Party, and they give so much money into the system that it's very challenging for republican to take on the NRA. I think that's really the big problem, and also, you know, we are a frontier society.
People are constantly moving west, and the guns -- having guns was part of American culture. If you go to states like Alaska or Kentucky and try having a county that has to have a regulated, you know, gun laws and you will get an uproar from people.
So, in many ways we are different nation we're urban and rural and in urban areas, people want, you know, gun control reform, and in a lot of the rural areas, they're saying no way, I don't trust the federal government, and I'm going to self-protect.
LEMON: Let's talk about the terror part of it, Riaz. You say hate groups grow and ISIS is able to recruit where there are cracks and risks in society, explain that.
RIAZ PATEL, TV PRODUCER & GAY MUSLIM ACTIVIST: I think is that what ISIS plays is really well in is in division, and I think when people are lost or confused or don't have an identity or feel less than, that when ISIS goes and says we can make you best, we can make you better than.
And I think it really becomes a thing that people who are oppressed or feel bad or feel terrible themselves, want to lash out. And it's funny that we're talking about the Confederate Flag which is a symbol of a nation divided.
I cannot remember time in my time when I felt this level of division. And it's so odd to think we're going to have an election, and about 160 million will be angry the day after.
[22:20:05] That is a very dangerous thing to have as a nation, and that is where ISIS comes to play, that the finger pointing goes both ways, and in the middle is where they are preying on people.
It's a two-part question, is why do you pick up the weapon, and how do you pick up the weapon. So, pointing at the gun controllers addressing the second part. To me, why are you picking up the weapon, what is it about your life that makes you feel less than?
And then we need to address how are you getting access to this weapon, because it is both, it's not either/or, it's gun control, it's not immigration policy it's not terrorist policy, it is both.
LEMON: Preach, Riaz. So, let's discuss. No, that's good. That was very good. Now we're getting down into the nitty-gritty here and not going, it's democrat, oh, it's republican.
LEMON: I'm so sick of it, it's such a tired old argument. Go on. PATEL: I mean, I tell you. Someone who literally belongs to no majority, I'm a gay Muslim from Pakistan, until they open up an amazing gay bar in downtown Islamabad, I will never walk into room around the majority. I never will.
As a result I go through my life scanning rooms for hates.
PATEL: I really do. I'm very quietly watching. And so, when I'm in Orlando with my family and with hijab wearing cousins after a family wedding in Orlando with eight-week-old daughter, I have to stop and watch what's going on, and I see fear. We're all afraid. I live in Manhattan in 9/11, fear is not a problem, it's what you do next that is a problem, and when you switch to anger...
LEMON: Go ahead, go ahead, finish your thought.
PATEL: Sorry. No, when you switch to anger it's not productive.
LEMON: So, that's the thing. So, if you -- people who are listening and they are so, I don't know in their corners and hell bent on making this political, this is how you have a conversation, you can agree but you don't necessarily rely and fall back on the same old tired talking points. It's time to evolve this conversation.
I have to ask you, when you were talking about a gay Muslim, you're a gay Muslim, I want -- what is it been like for you? Talk to me about homophobia among Muslims and Islam, talk to me about that. Because of this shooter, particular shooter, and his background and of course where he killed people?
PATEL: And that's why I'm here. It's a very strange thing to be accused of both being the attacker, and also be the victim as a gay man. So, I have a unique perspective and I feel like today I received texts from my hijab-wearing Ramadan fasting cousins in Jordan, saying they love me and support me.
And so, as far as I'm concerned and I am the Gay Muslim, not a big problem in my life. So, it's strange to me when people outside of my community particularly white Christians are turning to me and saying, gosh, it must be a real problem for you and Islam, and I'm saying not as far as I've noticed, but thanks for bringing it up constantly.
LEMON: We'll be right back. We'll continue this conversation.
[22:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Back with me, Bakari Sellers, Douglas Brinkley, J.A. Moore, and Riaz Patel. Everyone will get a chance to talk. But Riaz, I want to follow up with you, because, you know, speaking to an imam on the air, I ask him, you know, about homophobia and what does the Koran teach to that. And he said we don't believe in homosexuality that marriage is between a man and a woman. That it's man and a woman should be together, but yet, they don't judge, that's what he said. But surely you're not saying that being gay is not a problem among Muslims especially in countries where they throw people off buildings and they torture them and they burn them.
PATEL: Well, of course.
PATEL: Of course. But I feel like you also have that kind of oppression in certain Christian countries in Africa. So, I absolutely agree with you. Islam is, you know, 600 years younger as a religion, and it takes a while to evolve.
So, I absolutely do think there are places in the world where I would not want to be gay man. And, you know, I'm not trying to minimize it. I think to me, my perspective right now is I can't operate from a place of hate, I just can't.
PATEL: At this point, it can be more personal. So, there are places we can evolve. But I was not given the right to marry in the U.S. until very recently either. So, we're all evolving and I think at the end of the day, we want to have people we love protected.
And so I don't think it's necessarily a prompt having a gun. But if you're going to own something that has the right to snuffs out another human being's life, you have to submit a longer process to own it.
And I don't mean in a Wal-Mart for five minutes. I mean, I need to know who you are, what your values are and what your psychological issues are. You cannot walk around, and I feel so bad that this lovely man is talking one year after his sister has passed away. I have two sisters. And we are still here nothing has evolve? We have to. We have to get passed the anger. I am angry, I cannot be angry anymore.
LEMON: Douglas Brinkley, there is so much to talk about but do you want to weigh in on this or do you want me to move on?
BRINKLEY: Well, you know what, Don, I just, one thing is we have to be careful is to think always just to think our own times or more oppressive than other times in history. I mean, we were talking about a generation ago with 58,000 Americans killed in the Vietnam War.
And I know that there is anger and frustration right now, but what I've learned from Charleston, what I've learned from Orlando is the power of love and transcendent and healing and that hate is not going to win and the Dylan Roofs of the world aren't going to create a race war. We're not going to turn anti-gay en masse.
And I've been impressed with your show, Don, all week long of the heroes of Orlando, and people stepping forward and opening up their hearts and helping us process it all, and in that way, we are going to be moving forwards a country.
LEMON: And that's why it's so frustrating, and I have to watch myself, because it makes me angry, you know, some people are really upset. To me, it just makes me angry because, again, once you are there, and you see people, and you touch them, and you know, you talk to them, it's a different perspective than some people who come on.
A lot of the pundits who come on who sit in an air conditioned studio, and I have no idea what it's like for those people's lives or like, they're in a living hell and they don't want to talk about left versus right, they just want action. They want something to change.
So, Douglas, before I get back to other folks, you were in Charleston after the attack last year and you said that you could feel the darkness in the night and in the light in the morning, I was there, I completely agree with you. So talk about that with Orlando, do you think they're going to experience the same thing, the same sort of, you know, you go through the certain steps of grief?
[22:30:03] BRINKLEY: Yes. I think so. And I think they're getting there now, and, you know, we're going to be have a big gay pride, you know, New York parade coming up soon. There is movement to have Stone Wall in New York become a national monument.
Soon, there is going to be a new consciousness I think and love by a millions, tens of millions of Americans who have a new love for the LGBT community of America. So, I do think we've got to stay hopeful.
And I was amazed at the community leadership in Orlando in calming a lot of the fears and just being so honest, and heartfelt talking this week that it to me, there is hope at the end of this dark tunnel, and Charleston was that way.
When I landed there I went to Emanuel AME Church, I was, oh, my gosh, I'm in the worst scene around, and people start hugging you and candles are being lit and there's vigils.
LEMON: It's amazing.
BRINKLEY: And then church reopened.
BRINKLEY: And were starting to continue its ministry.
LEMON: Yes, and the people have not been so kind in a terrible circumstance that I can remember. People are always kind, but for some reason, Charleston, it was just a whole different level.
J.A., why do you think that the -- you said that shootings are a new reality, the mass shootings.
J.A. MOORE, COMMUNITY AND RELATIONSHIP DEVELOPER: What I believe is that -- do I believe it is a new reality? I think that -- yes. The answer I think, the answer to your question simply it is yes. And I think the only way we can negate this new reality is we have to do something about sensible gun control.
I still cannot understand, you know, why we can't have background checks that, you know, go to full process. You know, the three-day Charleston loophole is what's it is being called makes absolutely no sense to me.
It makes no sense absolutely no sense to me, and as, I mean, it's devastating lives. You talk about how Charleston was able to heal and how we will -- you know, we are very compassionate people. We have a passion to forgive.
However, we still want substantive actions to happen. We have to do something about gun control. You know, we can -- we can get all f the love from all over the country, and from politicians from everybody, but from all over, but if we don't do something about the issues that is at our hand, substantive issues, nothing is going to change.
We are going to have mass shootings that are going to continue to happen, and I for one I'm going to fight tirelessly to make sure that that doesn't happen. And I'm working right now with Senator Marlon Kimpson from South Carolina, he gave an eloquent speech today at the service, you know, talking about sensible gun control.
LEMON: Bakari, do you agree?
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I agree. I mean, I don't mean to rain on anyone's moment of unity or these Kumbaya moments, but that is what they have become. And we live in a country where we have compartmentalized this Kumbaya moments where we had Newtown where you had so many young people.
I'm talking about five, fifth and sixth graders. These young people who were slain who were shot down in their school, I mean, we did nothing. I mean, now we're talking about people, who again, they weren't killed by some radical Jihadist, they were actually killed by someone they were praying with for an hour. They welcomed him in their church in the bible study, and what's happened? Nothing.
And so, yes, and the way we celebrate it the Charleston one year anniversary of the Charleston massacre was that we're sitting here and talking about 49 other people, who were killed simply because of who they love.
I mean, we went from a year ago killing people because they were black and how they looked to a year later killing people because of who they love. So, our nation has learned nothing. And that's the travesty, and hopefully after Orlando, maybe we'll learn something.
LEMON: Riaz, as you said, to get rid of the hate, you need to the weapons will have go away or they will go away if you get rid of the hate, right?
RIAZ PATEL, TV PRODUCER & GAY MUSLIM ACTIVIST: I mean, I think at a certain point the hate comes from when you take Americanism and apply it to a sliding scale. That if I'm a Muslim I'm any less American, than someone else, if I'm gay I am 10 percent less than that, because I am not allowed to marry.
When you take American and make it a sliding scale, you are having a lot of people left out, and now I feel like 10 or 15 years ago when you were angry and disenfranchised you turned your rage inside with drugs and alcohol, and we have to intervene before you hunt yourself.
And now it's the new drug, its intervention 2.0 time. The talking and the Kumbaya is not effective but so is the anger.
And it's funny I'm looking at all of you and there is such a profound exhaustion because you have been talking about this for so long, and I'm the new one to the party, so I do honor that and feel that.
I think for this to be effective the clicking from anger to counter point is not working.
[22:35:04] LEMON: All right.
PATEL: We have to take a moment to figure how to make it work.
LEMON: I've got to you. Thank you. Fascinating conversation. I appreciate all of you.
SELLERS: Thank you.
LEMON: As we are look for answers in Orlando, the war on terror is not limited to any one U.S. city, in fact, it is a worldwide battle.
And I want to talk about this with former Congressman Mike Rogers, CNN National security commentator and host of "Declassified" he's the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.
Hello, Congressman. You know, the Orlando shooting is really causing everyone to look at our terror efforts overseas. Is there anything that could have been done against ISIS abroad that could to prevent what happened in Orlando?
MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIOAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR: Well, one thing you have to think about, Don, is that Mateen used ISIS as his permission slip to do what he did. There is a whole host of problems here that we're going to have to deal with. Some domestic, the mental health issues. He clearly had some issues there, getting our lists right, empowering our law enforcement to make sure that someone like that doesn't get access to a firearm.
[22:40:00] All of that needs to be look at. But at the same time we need to be fighting ISIS overseas, they are ones that are providing this inspiration, providing the permission for him to do what he did or at least in his mind what he did.
And so, we're going to have to come a more coordinated effort in their headquarters in Raqqah, that's where ISIS trains, it recruits it finances itself, and it uses propaganda from there to talk to people all over to the world. In the west, here.
Even the CIA director this week said that ISIS is very capable of doing operations in the west and the United States. Meaning they plan them, coordinate them, and infiltrate people here, and they are doing inspirational attacks like you saw in Florida, and in San Bernardino. It's a huge problem, and we are going to the have to deal with it one way or another.
LEMON: That brings us perfectly to John McCain and the President. I'm sure you heard John McCain's comments where he said that the president is directly responsible, he now says that he misspoke, and says the president's national security decisions, that's what he was talking about. What do you think?
ROGERS: Yes, you know, I known John McCain, I've known him for years. He is just not that kind of the guy to say he was personally responsible, I just, I do believe he misspoke, and when you are in the walking down the hall or wherever he was, I think that's probably exactly what happened.
He does believe that his policies have been a problem all going back to the unilateral pullout of Iraq, the release of Baghdadi and all of those folks pooled up, him and he is the leader of ISIS, pooled up in Eastern Syria then having no plan as they grew, and metastasized from Al Qaeda to ISIS.
I still think, you know, John McCain sees all of those efforts and through his frustration, and I do think that he meant, hey, all of those policies and decisions led to an ISIS that's able to inspire people to commit acts of violence here.
And so I think he is thinking that, listen, his foreign policy has been pretty close to a failure on dealing with ISIS, and all of the consequences of it. I think that's what he was talking about.
LEMON: But it's interesting that he praised President Bush when the troops were actually pulled out, and President Bush is the one who signed the status force -- the status enforcement agreement, so -- status in forces agreement, excuse me.
So how does he reconcile than just blaming it on the Obama administration, isn't there enough blame to go around?
ROGERS: Well, not on the unilateral pullout, there were many voices. I happened to be the chairman at the time, and the intelligence that we had in our possession clearly show that this was going to be a huge problem.
And there were folks on his national security team just who did not want to hear it. They were hell bent to say they ended the war in Iraq, and the problem is, think about where we are. Now we have -- we should have had a residual force to continue training and to continue the integration in Iraq...
LEMON: So, I don't mean to interrupt you, but you are saying that could have been renegotiated by the Obama administration, and the status in forces agreement?
ROGERS: Absolutely. As a matter of fact, they really didn't make a very aggressive effort to do it, when Iraq said we don't want to do three -- you know, two, three, four, rather than saying that's not the way it's going to the work, they said, you know what, we're just out.
ROGERS: And I just really thought that was a serious mistake that has led to other problems and I think again that's when I think John McCain was focused on.
LEMON: OK. Understood, I get your point. Let's talk about -- let's continue with someone who wants to be the president. Do you think that we need to reassess our refugee policy as Donald Trump suggests, do you think he has the right idea?
ROGERS: I wouldn't do it, you know, I don't -- I never believed in racial profiles as an FBI agent, I thought that's just bad, it's bad law enforcement number one versus not alone, not to mention that I think that it's racist.
But when you make these broad statements I just don't think it's helpful and I think you know, saying we're going to stop all Muslims, even temporarily. That's not really what you're looking for. And what you're looking for and I do think there' places to fix immigration policy.
And that's why I think, you know, boisterous language on either side of this debate is not helpful, because there are some problems in our immigration systems, there are checks that can't be done, people are overwhelmed. If you can't quite figure out if somebody is on the brink of having extremist views and they're in the refugee pool.
Remember, the CIA director said this week that ISIS does use refugee streams to infiltrate operatives in countries. Well, you know, in the FBI, Don, we've been called that a clue. And so, this is a problem that we're going to have find a way around.
I don't think you say we're going to ban everybody, I think that what we have to do is sharpen our tools that we have in law enforcement, in intelligence so that you can get a better representative of the right kind of people coming in who are going to embrace America in what we stand for versus coming here to do us harm. There is some room in there to fix that system.
LEMON: And, Congressman, you're out with the new original series for CNN it's called "Declassified" which exposes the untold stories of the American spies, what can we expect to see on Sunday?
ROGERS: It's going to be a great one. If you love spy versus spy and you want to peek behind that curtain and see what real life heroes are doing in the shadows to work their entire careers to get, you know, steal a little bit of information or obtain a little bit of information to help keep America safe, you're going to love this.
[22:45:09] So, on Sunday night, it's the first woman CIA officer who was assigned in Moscow, a young lady to collect information from somebody that the CIA had recruited who was a Russian diplomat working in Moscow, who believed that their nuclear policy was dangerous, and wanted to help the United States. So, they sent this woman, first time, very young to work as a spy all
by herself on the streets of Moscow to try to the fool the KGB. All the intrigue of a great novel you're going to find it, except it's told through her story in the work that she did as a spy for the United States. Pretty compelling, lots of fun, and you'll get smarter for the cause.
LEMON: It sounds fascinating, I know you are excited about it, and I'm excited to see it. Thank you, Congressman, I appreciate it.
Be sure to catch the premier of "Declassified" untold stories of American spies this Sunday at 10 p.m. Eastern. We'll be right back.
LEMON: My next guest is known worldwide for his spirituality and leadership in the new age movement, but when it comes to Donald Trump, according to his own words, the worst in him comes out.
[22:49:59] I want to discuss this now with Deepak Chopra, founder of the Chopra Center and the author of "Super Genes." Welcome. It's good to see you.
DEEPAK CHOPRA, "SUPER GENES" AUTHOR: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: Pleased to have you here in the studio. How are you?
CHOPRA: I'm good.
LEMON: You're doing good. So, I just got back from Orlando.
CHOPRA: You, so.
LEMON: Can we talk about that for a moment?
LEMON: It's so painful for the family members even the survivors, there is so much there. What -- is there anything that we can to move forward and to come to terms and make some sense of this. What do we do?
CHOPRA: Two things come to mind, one is that they should all know that the world is grieving with them, they're not alone. Everybody in this country the majority of the people are grieving. Some are using of course, the whole incident for political gain.
But having said that, I think it should be commonsense that an assault weapon should not be easier to get than to buy a puppy or to get a driver's license. We are collectively insane when we are allow assault weapons to be bought by anyone so easily and even people who are on terror watch who can't get on the plane can still buy an assault weapon, what kind of -- what kind of laws are those?
And we resort to this Second Amendment which was made at a time when guns were needed to get the British off of here, and for other reasons, and so, yes, things change, everybody was...
LEMON: Insanity, you say.
CHOPRA: Collective psychosis, yes.
LEMON: Let's talk about the politics in all of this, right? Because there's been so much politics surrounding this and there's been -- we are in a political season right now.
And this is the quote that I read from the latest column which in the San Francisco Chronicle, but I want to -- this quote is about GOP candidate Donald Trump, and when you said that when it comes to him, the worst comes out in you.
Well, here's what a part of what you wrote, you said, "But the larger issue isn't Trump's viability as a candidate as troubling as that is, but the rise of the movement he represents. Every term of condemnation applied to him, bigoted, racist, sexist, xenophobic, authoritarian, mentally unbalanced fuels the approval of his supporters."
"A hopelessly divided house of electorate has become a diseased electorate. That's the thing that should us the most because disease, diseased conditions need a cure or else they continue to fester."
So, where do we go as a country to address these issues that we face as American, then...
CHOPRA: Some of it is the cure, some of it is happening spontaneously. Mr. Trump very successfully ambushed hijacked and destroyed the Republican Party. So, now there is a republican revolt. He is essentially who is not even a republican, we don't know what he is.
He makes a statement in the morning, the exact opposite said in the afternoon and then denies both of them in the evening. I was a co- signer with him on an ad that appeared in The New York Times supporting President Obama's efforts for climate change.
And now he has taken the exact opposite stance. So, you know, when people look for a leader, they are looking for four things essentially, hope, trust, stability and compassion. OK.
So, on what front is he offering us hope? Build a wall across the Mexican border and have the Mexicans pay for that. What kind of hope is that? Trust? How can you trust somebody who changes their mind every hour? Stability, you can see for yourself how much stability he has. Just watch his videos and compare what he said this morning with this afternoon.
And compassion, where is it. I ask everybody, this is a time for self- reflex. If anything, he has brought out our fears, our aggression and in me, at least, he has made me look at me deep inside and say, am I one of those things that you just mentioned? LEMON: And that's why I've -- every time I ask you for advice, and
even if I am, you know, if there is something I'm feeling down you always have a positive side, you're always so positive, but on this, this is a departure of what I normally hear from you, what brings that out -- what does he do to you that brings that out?
CHOPRA: Watching his body language, and seeing him aggravate fear and insecurity made me angry. And I reacted, but I'm not going to be like that the again. I think that we should all look at ourselves and say, am I sexist? I'm homophobic? Am I ethnocentric? Am I bigoted? Do I have even a little bit of that, if I have that, then I should honestly face it myself and I can bring some light to this darkness.
And you write about the responsibility of the Republican Party to their failure, you say, to deal with him. What should they have done? What could they do in your estimation?
[22:55:09] CHOPRA: They should have had a stronger candidate. I mean, in hindsight, even George W. Bush looks like a rose, and Mitt Romney looks like a hero, they should have had better candidates.
LEMON: So then why, why are so many people supporting him?
CHOPRA: In times of crisis, people react in a violent way. It's called the fight or flight response. Remember, Mussolini was elected. Remember, Hitler was elected by people in fear at times of chaos, and feeling angry at the chaos that was there now.
Right now, people are worried about jobs, they are worried about education for their children, they are worried about insecurity in their communities. I think any viable candidate and I would love to see Hillary and Elizabeth Warren on a common ticket to make double history and give an example to the world.
LEMON: We know who you are supporting, you're not -- you are a never- Trumper, but you support Hillary Clinton. So, thank you. I appreciate.
CHOPRA: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you for coming in.
That is it for us tonight. Stay with CNN for continuing coverage of the Orlando massacre. I'm Don Lemon.
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