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CNN'S AMANPOUR

While "Remainers" Intervene in Hyde Park, Europe Begs Britain Not to Go; Considering Collective Responsibility on World Refugee Day; Interview with David Miliband; Migration Both Ways. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 20, 2016 - 14:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:00]

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Tonight as remainers intervene in London's Hyde Park, Europe begs Britain not to go. We get the view from two figures

with continental clout, the former head of NATO and Poland's former foreign minister.

Also ahead, the human problem that's going away. This World Refugee Day, we ask, what is our collective responsibility? The president of the

International Rescue Committee David Miliband weights in on that, and Brexits' ugly turn.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID MILIBAND, INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE PRESIDENT: When democratically elected politicians resort to that kind of innuendo and that

kind of fear mongering, it does a grave disservice to the democratic process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC)

AMANPOUR: Good evening everyone and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. It is three days until Britain decides its

fate, and opinion has been seesawing. This week starts with a blow to the out campaign, after a leading supporter decided to leave. Baroness Warsi

says that she is turned off by the "Xenophobia and hate spread by the out camp."

She says this inflammatory campaign ad was her personal breaking point, anti-immigrant Nigel Farage using Syrian refugees at Slovenia's border,

nowhere Britain to dial up the fear. Meantime, at Westminster today, politicians wearing white Yorkshire roses and colorful scarves paid tribute

to the murdered M.P. Jo Cox, a key remain campaigner.

Roses pointedly placed on her own empty seat in parliament. The man changed with Jo Cox's murder made another appearance in a London court,

days after declaring, "My name is death to trainers, freedom for Britain."

Now in this heightened atmosphere, Prime Minister David Cameron fighting to keep the nation inside the E.U. made this appeal last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: The leave campaign say, let's not listen to experts. But if we're about to get into a car and drive our

children in a motor and the mechanic says, the breaks don't work, the petrol gauge is faulty, the steering isn't working, we wouldn't get in the

car.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Nobody is more worried about all of these than Europe itself. So, let's talk to the experts there. Now 70 percent of European say the

U.K. leaving would be bad for the E.U., that's from the Pew Research Center, for European perspective on trade and economy, on rising

nationalism and security.

I am joined by two European heavyweight. From Copenhagen Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the former NATO Secretary General, and he was former Prime

Minister of Denmark. And from Berlin, Radek Sikorski who has been both foreign and defense minister in his native Poland. Gentlemen, welcome to

the program.

Let me turn to you Radek Sikorski first, because the former Polish Prime Minister who's now president of the European commission, Donald Tusk,

European council has said, "I fear that Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the E.U. but also of western political

civilization in its entirety." Is that apocalyptic or is that a fair concern?

RADEK SIKORSKI, FORMER MARSHAL OF SEJM: It's certainly a reflection of the fears on the continent. We cannot exclude the possibility of a psychology

of a bank run. And so there's an extra responsibility on everyone who is voting in Britain to think not only of Britain but also of the consequences

might be for the entire continent.

AMANPOUR: By bank run -- by the end of western civilization, does he mean sort of the whole European continent breaking up, in other words, other

countries spinning off?

SIKORSKI: Well let's remember that we had an attempt to make the E.U. more democratic and more transparent in the form of an E.U. constitution and

that was -- that project was brought down by referenda in France and Holland.

[14:05:05] And so, referenda have that history in Europe, and once an important country like Britain leaves that will certainly encourage forces

of nationalism, forces of that inimical to western values. We've just had a very close run election in Austria, Maureen Lafena (ph) I'm sure will be

delighted if the British decide to leave. There are other politicians that would be delighted. President Putin, I'm sure will open a bottle of

champagne.

But, responsible western leaders, president of United States, all of the common world leaders that I can think of, all recommending, respectfully,

that Britain should stay in.

AMANPOUR: Let me turn to you Mr. Rasmussen, because Radek Sikorski mentioned among others Vladimir Putin. He has been sort of waived around

as the talisman of all that would be wrong for Britain if it left the E.U. You were head of NATO at the time that Putin basically, you know, annexed

Crimea, invaded eastern Ukraine. From your perspective, not just as a former prime minister but as the head of the NATO alliance, how worried

should NATO be if Britain is not in the E.U.?

ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN, FORMER NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: I think we should be very worried. We want the U.K. to lead not to leave. If the U.K. were to

leave, the E.U. would miss a voice in favor of a strong stance against the Russian aggression. I fully agree with Radek Sikorski that President Putin

would open a bottle of champagne, and the risk of a breakup of the U.K., Scottish referendum of some saying would also undermine the whole security

in Europe.

AMANPOUR: But let me ask you about this bottle of champagne, I mean, there are E.U. sanctions on Russia right now because of what Putin did in Ukrain.

Surely the E.U. could continue with those sanctions, why is Britain in the E.U. so important and would make such a difference in this case? Mr.

Rasmussen?

RASMUSSEN: Because Britain is a voice for reform and because Britain has demonstrated a very clear stance in our policies, vis-a-vis Russia. And if

the U.K. were to leave the European Union, we would also miss that voice.

AMANPOUR: And can I ask you both because -- Radek Sikorski, you brought it up. I mean, let's face it, there are, you know, a lot of rising

nationalism and populism happening in Europe right now. How concerned are you that after a Brexit there might be, you know, a Frexit or an Nexit as

they in the Netherlands, is that a realistic proposal or not Radek Sikorski?

SIKORSKI: Well in Austria a nationalist candidate almost won and it's still being disputed, we also have a sort of wave of nativism in the United

States remember. It's a phenomenon that is sweeping the entire western world. And, nationalist I think about for the national interest, because

by sticking together we all gain. But a Brexit will certainly encourage the people who could bring to an end the longest area of peace and

prosperity in Europe.

One doesn't want to exaggerate but really, Britain is an important country and this would be an event whose consequences are completely unpredictable.

AMANPOUR: What about Europe's responsibility itself? I mean, let's face it, there is a log of anger at Europe, it has had a huge amount of

difficulty in the last decade dealing with the Euro prices, dealing with the Greek debt, obviously dealing with the refugees. The former polish

prime minister told me that Europe, you know, has over-promised and under- delivered. Do you not think, Mr. Rasmussen that this Euro skepticism here, you know, resonates? I mean, Europe has to get its act together too

doesn't it in the future?

RASMUSSEN: Yeah, absolutely, you're right. And doubt that the general Euro skepticism also plays an important role in the British campaign.

[14:10:04]Of course it's for British people to decide, but I think the British vote should also think about the future of the whole continent and

if the U.K. were to leave, I think there's a clear risk that we will unravel the whole European project, it might not in the first round the

countries leaving the European Union but you would definitely see a much, much more critical debate, you would see protectionist tendencies, and as I

mentioned, in the U.K. you might also see a breakoff if Scotland for instance organize a referendum or northern Ireland, I don't know. But all

in all that would weaken the whole western community.

AMANPOUR: And Radek Sikorski, you know, the leave campaigners, the Brexit leaders have been basically saying to their, you know, constituents that

don't worry, we can renegotiate all these deals, we'll be much more powerful economically because it doesn't matter whether we're in the -- in

the single market or not. And yet I hear from, you know, a lot of Europeans that actually, they are going to make it as difficult as possible

because they don't want to see a bank run, they don't want to see a contagion.

What can Europe -- what can Britain expect in terms of, you know, open arms at the negotiating table are if it votes Brexit?

SIKORSKI: I'll come to that but you mentioned migration, I just wanted to declare that I'm a former asylum seeker in Britain, a former migrant into

Britain. But look, I went back to Polland and gotten myself as a friend of Britain. And, look, estimate today, 800,000 of my compatriots in Britain,

this is a complement to the success of the British economy, and they might leave if, as most experts agree Britain has a recession after it leaves.

So, be careful what you wish for. Britain would have to reestablish a new relationship with the E.U., I don't think the Norwegian option is the -- a

probability because that doesn't give the levers what they want, which is control over the border -- over the movement of people from the E.U. So

Britain would have to leave the single market, that means reestablishing the customs border, that's not good for trade, Britain is the mother of

free trade, I don't see how that realizes British interest and how that would contribute to british prosperity.

And yes, I mean, for the continent, trade with Britain is about 10 percent of our trade. For Britain, her trade with us about is about 45 percent of

her trade. So, you can guess who would have the advantage in such a negotiation. And we have the procedure for leaving the E.U. actually set

out in the Treaty of Lisbon. And it would have to be Britain proposing within two years a deal and agreement that would be acceptable to everyone

of the remaining members. And Britain would have to persuade us that we want Canadian or a Swiss or a U.S. or WTO kind of relationship with

Britain.

It's not a good position to be in and certainly Britain would lose the veto in the voting part inside the E.U.

AMANPOUR: Well, sobering thoughts for everybody trying to make up their mind, thank you both for the European perspective, Radek Sikorski and

Anders Fogh Rasmussen. Thank you for joining me tonight.

And, as the death of the British M.P. Jo Cox rocks the referendum campaign, we take a moment to remember the person behind the rising political star.

Her grieved husband shared this photo showing Cox being a mom out camping with her two sons. And he says, he took his two little children camping

this weekend to remind them of something they love to do with her.

Coming up, some of the people Jo Cox fought most fiercely for on World Refugee Day a horrifying record broken, 1 in every 113 around the world now

is displaced. The head of the international rescue committee David Miliband, next.

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[14:15:00]

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program, it is World Refugee Day and a staggering new statistic is being released, at the end of last year more

than 65 million men, women and children had been forced from their home by war and persecution. A stark reminder that the refugee crisis is not going

away anytime soon and much more needs to be done to address it.

Jo Cox dedicated her time and her passionate voice to raise awareness in the house of commerce earlier this year, the same house that paid tribute

to her today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JO COX, BRITISH MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: Our refugees, given the escalation and the violence in Aleppo and the lack of the medical care available there

now, what further can the U.K. do to get the most vulnerable people out of harms way? And surely, given what we know about the horror that many of

the refugee children in Europe have fled, isn't it time to end the government's shameful refusal to give 3,000 unaccompanied children

sanctuary here in the U.K.?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Of course that's the Syria war which is still raging into its 6th year. And a short while ago, I spoke to the president of the

international rescue committee and the former British foreign secretary David Miliband about the refugees and about the failure of the political

class to deal with this crucial issue.

David Miliband, welcome back to our program, I want to ask you on this International Refugee Day, what to you and to the cause is the last of Jo

Cox, who is so passionate about refugees, about immigration in general?

MILIBAND: I think those vulnerable people, refugees in particular have lost an extraordinary ally, a great friend, a passionate campaigner who

sort of humans tied (ph) of the staggering statistics that have come out today of 65 million displaced people around the world, 20 million refugees.

Jo Cox found the human scale both to the diagnosis of the problem and to seeking to resolve it. And her murder, a calculated political murder by

this -- in this event last Thursday, it has obviously thrown the whole Britain into shook but frankly there's going to be a memorial service here

in New York as well. I think that she touched people in a very profound way.

AMANPOUR: And she was also a strong backer of the remain campaign in this heightened political atmosphere here in Great Britain, remain in the E.U. I

mean. What does her murder say about the power (ph) of this campaign, most particularly I ask you because the day she was murdered, assassinated,

Nigel Farage of the anti-immigrant, U.K. Independence Party unveils a poster, a campaign poster showing, basically Syrian and Middle Eastern

refugees no where near Britain but at the Slovenian border, and calling it breaking point.

And I have to say it is pretty vial because it shows an exact almost comparison between images that came out of the forced to march of Jews

during 1941 in Romania at the height of the Nazi atrocities.

MILIBAND: I think that we should learn the lesson of Jo Cox's life, which is that it's possible to be passionate without resorting to invective. The

Nigel Farage poster was disgraceful and Nigel Farage is frankly beyond the pail, the use of Syrian refugees queuing to get into Europe as a reason to

attack the notion of Britain being part of the European Union is a complete abdication of responsibility.

But frankly the Farage poster is other piece with other campaigning, there are leaflets showing a big picture of Turkey, the map of Europe, a big red

arrow across the English Channel, and the point --- the allegation or the insinuation, the suggestion that 73 million Turks following the red arrow

are on their way to Britain. That leaflet has been put out by the official campaign.

[14:20:03] And it's being lead by senior conservative and -- members of the cabinet Michael Gove and Boris Johnson should frankly be ashamed of

themselves, for putting out material which is designed to make people fearful and which is based on an absolute issue (ph) of untruth, and I

think it's very, very important that we learn the lesson of tone that Jo Cox set but also of substance, and when democratic elected politicians

resort to that kind of innuendo and that kind of fear mongering, it does a great deservice to the democratic process.

AMANPOUR: So what -- as CEO of the IRC, would you say that governments have to do about refugees, because, you mentioned the 65 million plus that

the UNHCR says, refugees around also, you know, that means about 1 in every 113 people on earth is either an asylum seeker, internally displaced or a

refugee. And given what's happening in Fallujah for instance, 84,000 people have fled Fallujah as the government tries to retake it from ISIS.

This issue is going to be around for a long time, and so far Europe has not dealt with it in the way that it probably could have done better.

MILIBAND: I that's right. But the human scale of this is that there are 24 more people displaced every minute, that's the reality. And the only

conceivable strategy has two elements, one, is to recognize that international peacemaking and peacekeeping needs to be taken to a whole new

level of effectiveness. The long-term wars in Somalia, prospectable (ph) long war in Syria, while that flow of refugees from conflict goes on, the

humanitarian sector is bound to be in under grave strain.

But the second part is that we must with the symptoms better. These refugees are in urban areas not in camps, they're displaced for a long time

so they need employment and education for their kids, and we need fundamental reform of the way that the international humanitarian sector

works, and I think that should be top of the agenda for the new U.N. secretary general.

We've got auditions or interviews taking place within the next month for the candidates, they should be asked very clearly, what are your answers,

what are your proposals to reform the international humanitarian system, to make it more effective, to live up to the ideals of those who inaugurated

the U.N. Convention on Refugees in 1951, which we are after all marketing today on world refugee day.

AMANPOUR: David Miliband, you're a former British foreign secretary, you may have probably noted of us that 50 of the state departments, middle

level officials there have written a letter to an established channel of descend criticizing the Obama administration for failing to stop and using

any kind of means to stop Syria war, which is responsible for the majority of the refugee crisis that we're seeing right now. You talked about what

governments have to do, not just in terms of humanitarian preparedness but in terms of stopping these wars. That at the heart of it is the big issue,

right? Allowing these wars, particularly Syria to continue.

MILIBAND: Well Syria is certainly the largest refugee crisis today, 5 million of the 21 million refugees are from Syria. And I think that the

call from the state department officials is a profound one, I've got 2,000 staff working for the IRC in Syria so I am determined to be extremely

careful about what I say, the most important thing to say is truthful. First of all, yes, the situation on the battlefield does affect the changes

of political progress, that's something that the state department officials are making as a central point.

Secondly, the details of military really matter for the humanitarian consequences, you mentioned Fallujah, there's also discussion about Mosul,

there is a tinderbox there it's very, very important that those planning military endeavors are taken to account the conceivable and possible

humanitarian consequences of what they do. The spirit in the state department that says we are still a country and a group of diplomats that

believe the U.S. can solve international problems seems to be very important and a very laudable one at a time of an enormous amount of soul

searching, about the effectiveness of international diplomacy.

AMANPOUR: David Miliband, thank you very much for being with us tonight.

MILIBAND: Thank you very much Christiane.

AMANPOUR: And on a lighter note, Europeans are trying to steal an invote (ph) with a kiss.

After our break, imagine a world of Brits seduced by Europe.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:25:00]

AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, remember, migration works both ways, as our Atika Shubert found amongst Britain living in Munich.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC)

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: ... accordion music, what could be more German that this? The perfect venue talking with engineer

Robert Harrison and language teachers Emma Smith and her husband William. All have lived in Germany for more than a decade, all of Brits worried

about Brexit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's an attitude I think in Britain that, you're either British or European, well I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

I mean I feel proud to be British, I'm very proud of many of the things that Britain has done in the world. But I'm also proud to be European.

SHUBERT: So worried they are applying for German citizenship so they can maintain their rights to live and work not only in Germany but across the

European Union if Britain really does leave the E.U.

EMMA SMITH, BRIT LIVING IN GERMANY: But I wanted to get 33 points, that's why I'm so disappointed.

SHUBERT: Emma score 32 out of 33 questions on his citizenship test, something her husband hopes to beat.

WILLIAM SMITH, BRIT LIVING IN GERMANY: In talking to a few people about Jew nationality, it is amazing some of the arguments you get, well, which

soccer team do you support for example.

E. SMITH: I'm not changing that ...

SHUBERT: Divide his loyalty.

E. SMITH: I've already said Germany is never going to be my football team.

SHUBERT: But William says it doesn't mean the E.U. is perfect, E.U. migration to Britain is an issue he says but it also allows British

citizens like himself to pick up and move across Europe to find work, in Germany or a nice sunny place to retire as many do in Spain. And yes, E.U.

bureaucracy can feel suffocating from member states he acknowledges.

W. SMITH: What you did you do is you fit in, and as a Brit I want my British representative to get in there and fight for us.

SHUBERT: How often ...

(OFF-MIC)

W. SMITH: 50-50. I think that rationally if you will start to realize the European Union is good for the United Kingdom, I certainly hope is.

E. SMITH: I think quite a few of the undecided people at the moment will vote to stay.

W. SMITH: If you'd asked me two weeks ago I would have been very optimistic, I am rather pessimistic. And I think the economic argument is

being beaten down by the migration argument.

SHUBERT: Which is exactly why all three Brits are opting of the belt and suspenders approach of German citizenship, leader (ph) not require but beer

certainly recommended.

Atika Shubert, CNN, Munich.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And that is it for our program tonight. Thank you for watching and good night from London.

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