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Brexit And The Race For The White House; Campaign Adviser: Trump Dropping Call For Muslim Ban; Clinton And Warren Blast Trump; Extremists Energized By Trump?; Trump: "I Am The Least Racist Person"
Aired June 27, 2016 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: They say it's a vote about freedom, about jobs, about borders, about taking back your country. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
That's what they said in the U.K. about the Brexit vote and that's what Donald Trump is saying here. But a lot of those promises about Brexit may not be true after all. Will the fallout be a stumbling block for the Trump campaign?
Plus, chaos in California as white supremacists and counter protesters do battle. Is extremism on the rise? And are hate groups gravitating to Trump's campaign? Let's begin, though, tonight, with CNN's Sunlen Serfaty and she is the latest on the Donald Trump campaign.
Hello, Sunlen. We are learning more information tonight about what Donald Trump is saying about his Immigration Plan and the temporary ban on Muslims. What do you know?
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Don, this is big potential shift coming from the Donald Trump campaign. The ban, a complete and total ban on all Muslims coming into the U.S. That was such a central part of his primary campaign. He announced it with great fanfare back in December when he was competing against his Republican primary opponents. But sources now telling CNN that there is going to be a reworking, a retooling of that policy.
A campaign memo is being drawn up at this moment. We do know that Trump will now back away from that complete ban on Muslims coming into the U.S. And now it will just be a ban on immigrants coming from countries that have some link to known terrorism including equipping and training potential terrorist.
And we do not know what country this potentially applies to. The Trump campaign has not been specific in terms of a list of countries this will involve potentially. They say that there will be more details coming in the coming days, Don.
LEMON: So let's turn now to the Clinton Campaign. She and Elizabeth Warren held an event together in Ohio. Interesting location for their first appearance. Could this be a Clinton/Warren ticket, you think? SERFATY: That photo op today really fueled a lot of extra scrutiny and extra speculation whether these two would team up for the vice presidential ticket. It really did seem that Clinton and Warren really milked that photo op at some points staying on stage for two minutes during that campaign event.
We do know from sources we should not rule out Elizabeth Warren being potentially chosen as Clinton's vice presidential pick. We saw Clinton have effusive praise for her up on stage, calling her terrific, you know, noting all that she's accomplished since she's come into the senate.
And it was interesting to see Elizabeth Warren not back down from her role she's been playing for quite some time now, attacking Donald Trump directly. She really had a no holds barred attack on Donald Trump today. And really was successful in baiting him in. He wasted no time responding to Elizabeth Warren. He called her Pocahontas, his typical nickname for her, a fraud, a sellout.
In large part this is one of the roles that I think Clinton sees her potentially becoming if she is chosen as the vice presidential candidate. You could see Clinton say, praise Elizabeth Warren saying she really knows how to get under Donald Trump's skin and Clinton adding that she likes that.
LEMON: Sunlen Serfaty, thank you very much.
I want to bring in now KABC talk radio host, John Phillips, a Trump supporter. He is back. Patti Solis Doyle is back too, a former Hillary Clinton Campaign manager and CNN Political Commentator Bob Beckel. They're back. Hopefully you watched the last hour as well.
So thank you guys for joining us. You know, as John, our new poll CNN Poll of Polls. It shows that Hillary Clinton leading by seven points. Are you worried he won't be able to bounce back from this at all?
JOHN PHILLIPS, KABC TALK RADIO HOST: Well, he's had three truly awful weeks. So I'm frankly surprised the numbers aren't lower. It's like if you, you go on a cruise ship and you come back and you get your cholesterol taken. And it's really high. You shouldn't be upset, you should be happy that you're not dead.
He needs to ...
BOB BECKEL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Or you step on a scale after a cruise, right?
PHILLIPS: Yeah. He needs to stop the unforced errors. Don't talk about the Mexican Judge. Don't talk about the sprinkler system at the golf course. Get back on the issues.
[23:05:02] Get back on the subjects. Have those numbers rebound. The numbers still are looking fairly good. In the swing states, he's still within the margin of error in many of those in the most recent polls. So get back on track and stop getting in your own way. That's my advice. LEMON: You know, John brings up a very good point, Patti, that, you know, saying seven points down. There's still months to go until the election and Donald Trump is a person, you know, a person that -- a candidate that many people thought would never get this far. He's going to be out here and then he kept going. Does it concern the Clinton Campaign that he is only seven points behind? We should be saying that?
PATTI SOLIS DOYLE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, first of all, it's still very early and, you know, John is right. And at some polls ...
LEMON: Should it be concerning to them, I should say?
DOYLE: The national polls really don't matter at all. I mean the polls that matter are the statewide polls, the battleground state polls. That what I think should be very concerning to the Trump campaign is if you dig deep into the numbers and look at the, you know, constituencies and, you know, 2/3 of likely voters don't think that Donald Trump is qualified to be president. That's a really steep hurdle to overcome.
Hillary is beating Donald Trump with women by extremely wide margins, with Hispanics by extremely wide margins. With African-Americans by extremely wide margins. And the people that Donald Trump should be doing well with, white men, he's doing -- he's beating her but he's below what Mitt Romney was at this point in the campaign back in 2012. So I, you know, I would be very concerned if I run the Trump Campaign right now.
LEMON: OK. Bob, here is the senate majority leader Mitch McConnell Dodging a question about Donald Trump. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, "THIS WEEK" HOST: You believe he's qualified? And how do you convince all those voters to think he isn't?
SEN. MITCHELL MCCONNELL (R-KY), SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: Well, look, I think there's no question that he's made a number of mistakes over the last few weeks. I rink they're beginning to right the ship. It's a long time until November. And the burden obviously will be on him to convince people that he can handle this job.
STEPHANOPOULOS: I didn't hear you say whether you thought he was qualified.
MCCONNELL: Look, I'll leave that up to the American people to decide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I felt for George in that moment. Because, Bob, you know how I hate it when people don't answer my questions directly.
BECKEL: Yes. LEMON: I mean for both Democrats and Republicans. It doesn't matter which campaign you're with. If you don't answer my questions directly, I'm going to go after you. I'm going to ask you the question again.
So I felt for George. He did a good job in following up there. But I mean it's three weeks until the convention. How damaging is it, Bob, that a top Republican won't answer questions an Trump's qualifications?
BECKEL: Well, I mean, it's terribly damaging. Look what happened last week when Hillary -- when Sanders -- she finally got past Sanders, you had Barack Obama coming out. You had Elizabeth Warren coming out. All of them. And Hillary Clinton, herself, taking on Trump.
They know the perception problems for Trump and they are deep. It's the reason they're running an advertising early in the battleground states because they want to solidify the negative Feelings about Trump that are out there, before he has a chance to bounce back. You know, it's an old adage in politics, when you're digging a hole, give me, the campaign manager to shovel.
But in Trump's case, he doesn't want to seem to give it up. Having said all that, in the end, I'm not sure Trump is going to be the Republican nominee.
BECKEL: You just heard it. You just heard it. 45/55.
LEMON: You don't think he's going to be the Republican nominee?
BECKEL: On his own volition. That's right.
LEMON: How so?
BECKEL: Well, I think for a couple of reasons. One, I don't think he ever thought he was going to get this far. I think the idea of being President of the United States, although it's a wonderful idea, it cramps his style. I think that his family doesn't like it at all, particularly his daughter who's got a lot of influence over him.
And you could see her influence coming out in the last few days. I just thought and I don't think he wants to be seeing his brand getting crucified in November and taking the senate down with it.
Ask yourself a hard question. I mean, he's got an easy out. Nobody wants to help him. So take it. But I don't -- I'm telling you, just keep your eye out.
LEMON: You think he'll quit?
BECKEL: I think he will find a way to not be the Republican nominee.
LEMON: I'm surprised that you said it. But I've heard a number of people say the same thing, anecdotally. That he doesn't like to ...
BECKEL: Like that's not true. They had to be talking to me before they'll say that.
LEMON: John, do you think that -- I mean, you think that's possible?
PHILLIPS: Well, look, if that happens that will be the most interesting thing that's ever happened in Cleveland, taking the parade with Lebron, leading the NBA championship.
But He's got the delegates. He's got the votes. If he leaves, that will do -- it would certainly be a political earthquake. But there's no reason to believe that he's going anywhere anytime soon.
DOYLE: Look, I'm not going to go out there and predict it. But look, right now Donald Trump is facing a humiliating loss and the thing he thinks is the worst thing in the world is to be a loser and right now he's facing being one of the biggest losers in electoral politics.
LEMON: Yeah. I, you know, I was on a radio show at last week and someone said that he doesn't hate -- he doesn't like to lose. And right now, if it's looking like he's going to lose then he might back up.
[23:10:02] Bob, you might be on to something. I don't know.
BECKEL: Well, remember Lyndon Johnson announced he wasn't going to run for re-election. You probably doubt. You're probably gleaming in your daddy's eye at that point.
But nonetheless, it shocked the political world when he said that. In the end of March, in the presidential year in 1968. So I just -- I happen to think that Trump rises and falls on his brands.
BECKEL: And his brand is going to be tarnished as it is. And as Patti pointed out, a devastating defeat will only make it worse. Who's going to run a ...
PHILLIPS: I'll say this. If Bob's right, I'm taking him to Vegas with me.
BECKEL: There you go. All right?
LEMON: Trust me. You don't want to go to Vegas with Bob. He's -- he snores. So, listen --
BECKEL: How do you know?
LEMON: I don't know. Don't ask me that. Bob, listen, I was alive but I, you know, I don't remember the Johnson thing but I was alive. Just so you know. Both candidates had high u unfavorability ratings. So this is one of the NBC news "Wall Street" Journal Poll shows. More voters see Trump in a negative light. Would it help if he was finally embraced by the Republican Party, John? Or you, Patti, would -- do you think that would help him?
DOYLE: If he was embraced by the Republican Party?
DOYLE: It would be better than it is now, that's for sure.
Let's take a look at today. And Hillary Clinton was with Elizabeth Warren. She monopolized the coverage today. And she's going to have more days like that with Barack Obama, with Joe Biden, with Tim Kaine.
We -- in POLITICO today, there are people -- people don't want to speak of the convention if Donald Trump is going to be the nominee. They don't want to show up, much less be his running mate. So I think, you know, that would be helpful if he would have some sort of support within his own party.
LEMON: John, last final word quickly if you can. That's a very good point. I mean, you saw Mitch McConnell didn't want to answer a direct question about him. And then I think Patti makes a good point.
PHILLIPS: Yeah. Part of the reasons he's dipped in the polls is because Republicans are upset. Republicans are going for Gary Johnson or thing about staying home or maybe even voting for the democrat, Hillary Clinton. However, in the ABC news poll which was worse for Trump, 57 percent of the respondents said they'd like the next president to take the country in a different direction than the direction President Obama has taken us in. So there's still opportunity for Donald Trump to grow.
LEMON: All right, everybody, stay with me.
When we come back, Elizabeth Warren's fiery attacks on Donald Trump, is she just what the Clinton Campaign needs?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: What kind of man roots for people to lose their jobs, to lose their homes, to lose their life savings? I'll tell you what kind of a man. A small, insecure money grubber who fights for no one but himself. What kind of a man? A nasty man who will never become president of the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Hillary Clinton hit the campaign trail in Ohio today side by side with Senator Elizabeth Warren amid fevered speculation that Warren might join Clinton's ticket. The Senator went after Donald Trump with both barrels.
Back with me now, John Phillips, Patti Solis Doyle, and Bob Beckel. By the way, bob, is that a suit?
BECKEL: Yes, it is. You know, you've actually influenced me in so many ways. I want to grow up to be just like you so I thought I'd start with a suit.
LEMON: So many places to go with that. But let's get back to business.
BECKEL: I know. I know there are. I just realized I delivered you a soft ball right down the middle of the plate on that.
LEMON: It did. Elizabeth Warren wasn't shy about attacking Trump over and over again. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WARREN: Donald Trump says he'll make America great again. It's right there. No. It's stamped on the front of his goofy hat. You want to see goofy? Look at him in that hat. When Donald Trump says great, I ask, great for who exactly? When Donald Trump says he'll make America great, he means make it even greater for rich guys just like Donald Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Wow. So why do you say that she's the best attack dog against Trump?
BECKEL: Well, listen to her. I mean, it's first of all, she's a woman who -- we know that Trump doesn't deal well with women and she is not afraid to back down from him. And I think she'll go out and do that kind of thing every day. It's going to drive him absolutely crazy.
And the other thing is, every day that Brexit goes on. You know, people said all this is helpful to Trump. Give me a break it's going to be chaos every day for the next three months. People are going to say, wait a minute, that kind of shift, imagine what happens if Donald Trump gets elected president.
LEMON: What do you say about that, John?
PHILLIPS: I think Bob Beckel is right that Elizabeth Warren will be working the lounge but not the showroom. She's not going to be the vice presidential nominee. The whole Clinton Campaign is going to be based on making this referendum on Donald Trump.
And if you're going to make his personality and his candidacy the referendum, then the last thing you want is another strong personality on the ticket. You want someone vanilla, you want someone who's in offensive, you want someone who's milk toast. And I think if that's the type of person that you're looking for, someone you're comfortable with. Then Tim Kaine probably has the inside track here. You don't need Elizabeth Warren to be a distraction. You can send her out at the ...
LEMON: Are you saying she stole Hillary Clinton's thunder today, you think?
PHILLIPS: I think so. And I think -- but above all else, she just has a strong personality. And if she and Donald Trump are trading insults and trading barbs and trading jabs, then I think that that puts the spotlight and that puts the focus on her personality which is not what Hillary Clinton wants to do in the general.
LEMON: OK. So Patti, I mean you -- I have to say when I saw them together today besides their clothes that looked -- they said that Hillary Clinton was actually wearing purple and it looked blue on television. But they'll -- they were matching, right? They were matchy-matchy (ph). And I do think about this that is this what a woman ticket would look like? Do you think that that is the ultimate dream team for democrats, those two?
DOYLE: Look, I think an all-women ticket would be fantastic thing for the country. I think we've had all men tickets for a long time. Maybe it's time for an all-women ticket.
But look, I think Elizabeth Warren did a great thing today.
[23:20:04] She got under Donald Trump's skin. And when someone gets under Donald Trump's skin, he says crazy, outlandish, you know, bombastic things and he makes mistakes. So for democrats, that's a good thing. I'm all in favor of Elizabeth Warren going out on the campaign trail and lambasting Donald Trump day after day after day.
LEMON: Yeah. Because Trump immediately hit back calling her, you know, goofy Elizabeth Warren. She -- so he -- I mean, are you worried she's getting under Trump's skin, you think, John, because he always, you know, he saw he always has to respond to her. He's always going to put at with her on twitter.
PHILLIPS: Well, we've seen this before. He got under Marco Rubio's skin so Marco Rubio decided that during the debates he would try to take on Donald Trump and Donald Trump's sand box. We saw that with Jeb Bush. It didn't work out for either one of them.
These politicians are comfortable playing in that realm. I don't necessarily think you want to get involved in this kind of fight with someone who's existed in the New York tabloids for decades. Donald Trump knows how to handle himself.
LEMON: Can I ask you guys this, because I've been thinking about this. I've always been thinking about everyone calls Donald Trump Mr. Trump or Donald Trump and everyone is like, Hillary. Is that because they're familiar with her or is that because, you know, why the difference? It's just that when people would just say, Obama or Barack. Some people would get upset by. Does it bother anyone that people just call Hillary Clinton Hillary or instead of Secretary Clinton or Mrs. Clinton rather than -- does it bother you? DOYLE: No.
BECKEL: And I tell you, you shouldn't stay up at night worrying about that one.
LEMON: I was just wondering, you know. That this one ...
BECKEL: No, I think that -- look, Hillary is over, that's just a brand. You're talking about a brand that's a brand.
BECKEL: Trump, you know, you call him Donald Trump. You call him a lot of other things.
LEMON: Yeah. So my other question is when, you know, he says goofy Elizabeth Warren or crooked Hillary, I wonder if someone, you know, had an interesting conversation with Donald Rumsfeld just by happenstance. And I was wondering if someone said, you know, called him on the campaign trail or like Daffy Donald.
I mean it's -- do people deserve, especially people who hold public office even when you're running against him. Do they deserve a certain degree of respect that you don't really call them out of their names? Does that seem kind of petty and childish to do that? Anybody?
BECKEL: Well ...
DOYLE: Well, it's sophomoric to say the least and it's certainly not the fitting of a, you know, presidential candidate. Having said that. It worked for Donald Trump in the primary. He went after all of those men that he was running against. Ironically or interestingly, at least, when he went after Carly Fiorina, a woman, it backfired on him big time when he went after her personally.
LEMON: What do you say to that, John?
PHILLIPS: I think it's effective. Because he defines them. He defined Jeb Bush very early on as low energy. That stuck and Jeb Bush could never shake it. So I guess the issue would be if you've been defined by Donald Trump then you have to prove to voters that it's not true. Jeb Bush wasn't able to do that. Ted Cruz wasn't able to do that. Marco Rubio wasn't able to do that.
BECKEL: Yeah, but that was among Republican primary caucus goers. This is -- we're talking about the whole electorate here. I've never heard -- I've been around politics a long time. It's probably very apparent. But this is starting to sound like a third-world election. I've never heard the kinds of things that are said back and forth between candidates and between their surrogates. This is getting ramped up.
I mean, Mitchell McConnell whose job, his only job he's always love for all his whole life, to be majority Leader is on the line because of Donald Trump and he still won't say he's qualified, that will tell you pages.
LEMON: Hey, let's talk about Donald Trump says he's going to give you a big -- give us a big economic policy speech tomorrow. How should he convince Americans that he can run the economy better than Hillary Clinton? Who wants to take that? No one?
DOYLE: I'll take it. I'll take it.
He's got to come up with some details. I mean the, you know, these no plans is not going to work when it comes to people's jobs. I mean the American people haven't gotten a raise in 20 years. So he needs to give a detailed plan on how he's gong to raise the minimum wage, how he's going to create jobs and how he's going to make the middle class' life better in this country.
BECKEL: There's got to be -- he's got -- there's a backdrop, he's got four failed casinos in New Jersey. Who can lose money on casinos? I mean, if you -- if nothing else, sell it to the Mafia, you could make some money. But you go under water? I mean, come on.
LEMON: Thanks Bob.
BECKEL: You're welcome.
LEMON: Hey, john, you still want to go to Vegas with him? I mean he's talking about the mob and casinos. I'm not -- I told you he's not the guy to go to Vegas with.
PHILLIPS: If he knows the mob and those people, then we'll be sitting in the front row.
BECKEL: That's right. We will. We'll get front-row tickets and everything, John. We'll be fine.
LEMON: Up next. Thank you, guys.
Up next, the ugliest campaign in years. Is it opening the door to fringe groups and hate speech? We'll be right back.
LEMON: A violent clash in California over the weekend. And some are blaming politics for that and other recent violence. The story tonight from CNN National Correspondent, Deborah Feyerick.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is what happens when white supremacists arrive at California's capitol building for a permit-approved demonstration. They encounter protesters seemingly looking for a fight.
PROTESTERS: Off our streets.
FEYERICK: About 10 people injured. Some of them stabbed as police on horses moved in. Organizations which monitor hate crimes say white supremacists and extremist groups are energized for Republican candidate Donald Trump who's spoken out aggressively against immigrants and Muslims.
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want surveillance of certain mosques, OK?
FEYERICK: And who some say was slow to denounce praise earlier this year by form Ku Klux Klan grand wizard, David Duke.
JONATHAN GREENBLATT, ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE: I'm not saying that Donald Trump is a racist or anti-Semite but the racist and anti- Semites have come out of the woodwork during this political season to support him.
FEYERICK: Jonathan Greenblatt is with the Anti-defamation League.
Is this typical? Is this normal of a presidential election to see this uptick?
[23:30:00] GREENBLATT: This is not normal so we have to go back to the 1960s when George Wallace ran for president to have a similar example of racism being inserted into the public conversation in a presidential election.
FEYERICK: The ADL reporting last week the number of anti-Semitic hate crimes in America up 3 percent over last year, 941 incidents. Violent assault rose by 50 percent from this time last year. The trend is reflected in the United Kingdom where a police-funded website says reports of hate crimes just in the last months were up 57 percent.
This is rhetoric heated up over the country's referendum of whether to pull out of the European Union. Much of that debate focused on the E.U.'s open borders allowing hundreds of thousands of immigrants to enter the country. Elsewhere in Europe, far right extremism has been growing steadily.
In the last year and a half, far-right governments have been elected in Hungary and Poland and their popularity has surged in Austria and France. The rally in Sacramento organized by traditionalist Workers Party chair and white supremacist Matthew Heimbach, a self-described Trump supporter who was accused of earlier this year of assaulting a black woman at a Trump rally in Louisville, Kentucky.
FEYERICK: Now, the number of hate groups has remained steady, this spike has occurred in the intensity of the rhetoric, the hate speech, especially on social media. It is unclear whether all of these people actually identifies as Trump supporters or whether, in fact, they're simply using his candidacy as a way to promote their agenda.
LEMON: That's a good distinction. I mean, but can you directly tie it, because, you know, we saw the gentleman there. He said I've never seen so many racists and anti-Semites come out but you can't really directly tie it. Is there direct evidence that ties it to the trump campaign?
FEYERICK: What it appears is that the campaign of Donald Trump has made hate speech OK.
FEYERICK: That they can say these things because they're not saying anything different than what he, himself, is promoting, banning Muslims, going after judges because of their heritage. So it's things like that and especially we saw with David Duke who came out and essentially praised Donald Trump in his policies. Donald Trump didn't back away from him and that resonated with some of these groups, in fact, giving them the green light to go out and speak the way they were speaking so it's very -- it's tricky.
LEMON: Yeah. When you have a platform like that, one must be careful of --
FEYERICK: Very careful.
LEMON: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Deborah Feyerick, fascinating piece. Appreciate that.
When we come right back, will the rise of extremism cause trouble for the Trump campaign? We'll discuss.
[23:36:41] LEMON: The rhetoric of the election, this election season, fueling a rise of fringe groups and hate speech. Here to discuss, Carl Bernstein, CNN Political Commentator, author of "A WOMAN IN CHARGE: The Life Of Hillary Rodham Clinton" and Jason Osborne, a Donald Trump supporter who is a former Senior Communications Strategist for Dr. Carson's campaign. Good evening, gentlemen, thank you for coming on.
Jason, you first, I'm going to start with you. You just heard white supremacist and extremist groups are being energized by Donald Trump. Why do you think that l?
JASON OSBORNE, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Well, first off, let me just say, you know, the white supremacy groups should not be out there advocating for Donald Trump and his policies. I mean, they're abhorrent to begin with.
So, getting to your question about in terms of the rhetoric that's out there, I think what we're seeing is that, you know, this constant effort by folks that are used to traditional candidates wanting a candidate like Donald Trump to speak a certain way.
And so when Donald Trump sits there and says that, you know, America is under attack, that we need to close our borders, that we need to actually take a look at the visa program that is getting us into trouble with having extremist terrorists coming over. That is the kind of language that you hear at the kitchen table. That you hear at the barbecue on the weekends. And just because he doesn't coached in politically correct terms doesn't mean he's necessarily feeling ...
LEMON: But, Jason, we have very limited time together. My question was white supremacists and extremist groups are being energized by Donald Trump. Why do you think that is?
OSBORNE: I can't explain why those individual groups are identifying with Donald Trump except to say that they like many other Americans are concerned about the direction this country is headed and that we're taking, seem to be more concerned about people that are not from here, from America, whether it doesn't matter what ethnicity they are, but people are they are coming in from outside this country that are seeming to go after the roots of our democracy and causing a lot of problems both in, you know, everywhere. Orlando ...
LEMON: So what you're saying is that is an appealing message for racists and extremists. It sounds like you're condoning that. I mean, you're saying that they should be out there ...
OSBORNE: No, I'm not. And that's why I said at the beginning that I don't condone anything they say or do. I don't know -- I don't understand -- I don't know what motivates them. All I can say is what I'm hearing and I heard it with Dr. Carson's campaign and heard it from the 16 other candidates that were out there is that when we had people coming up to us in Iowa and New Hampshire that are concerned about putting food on the table, they're concerned about their health care system, they're concerned about ...
LEMON: I understand that. I understand that. With all due respect, I get -- don't do talking points with me. But the thing is that then, is there something racist and extremist about the message then?
OSBORNE: You know, I think that's a very good question. I can't answer that for you because I'm not a white supremacist. I'm not one of those organizations. All I can say is that, when you start talks about problems that are affecting our country right now, you're going to have groups that identify with one aspect of every campaign, I think you could say the same thing about the other side, where you have organizations out there.
[23:40:00] I mean, we have this problem in 2008 with Reverend Wright that was out there talking about, you know, the white culture and the white.
LEMON: But it wasn't Reverend -- that's an unfair comparison because Reverend Wright that was a snippet from a sermon that was brought into the campaign from Reverend Wright. You didn't have Reverend Wright out there campaigning for Barack Obama.
OSBORNE: Well, that was only -- that was because that was a choice by Obama.
LEMON: As a matter of fact, the Obama broke ties with him saying that that sort of message ... OSBORNE: Right. But there's nobody on the Trump side doing the same equivalent of what Reverend Wright has done. So I think we have to fair there.
LEMON: OK, all right. So, Carl, you called out Trump as neofascist (ph) before. I mean, what do you make what I just said with Jason?
CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think that Donald Trump is deliberately putting out a racist, bigoted, nativist appeal as well as a neofascist (ph) appeal but it applies and it appeals to more than just racists and bigots. He's also really on to something in terms of understanding the disaffection and dislocation of millions of Americans who have lost their jobs, who have seen their wages stagnant, who have been laid off and two things combined are what are propelling his candidacy, but yes, would it is without a message of bigotry, and racism, and nativism, and neofascism?
No. It would not have taken off like this. But at the same time, we have to give him credit for understanding how disaffected people are in a way that many democrats, including Hillary Clinton, seem to be unaware of.
LEMON: OK. Go ahead, Jason.
OSBORNE: How can you have the same message apply to both extremes? I mean, Carl, I don't understand that concept of it. I mean, when you talk about neofascism, you're talking about somebody I understand you're saying this is a new type of fascism. But Donald Trump is not espousing the traditional fascism rule that you're saying, and by saying that he's appealing on one side to folks that have lost their jobs that are struggling to make ends meet. But at the same, he's appealing to the racist and bigot side, what language is he using that's doing that?
Just because he's not using the politically correct terminology that you want to be used, doesn't mean that he is espousing those types of beliefs.
BERNSTEIN: No, I think he's building a coalition, and the coalition includes an awful lot of bigots and nativist, and a lot of hateful people and at the same time, a lot of people who have been screwed in this economy and by both parties. And it's perfectly ...
OSBORNE: How is he building a coalition?
BERNSTEIN: Let me just finish. And it's perfectly reasonable to look at a new kind of neofascism, not about nazism, not about genocide, not about making the trains run on time in Mussolini's Italy. It's about a strong man who Donald Trump pretends to be who is contemptuous of government, who is contemptuous of everything but his own strength, who is contemptuous of democratic institutions and says, "Oh, believe in me, I'm going to change everything by decree and we are going to disallow people coming into this country of a certain orientation who happen to be Muslim.
LEMON: OK. BERNSTEIN: ... Mexicans, and on and on and on and on and on, so you
do get a neofascist message.
LEMON: Let him respond, Carl.
BERNSTEIN: ... a demagogic message, et cetera.
OSBORNE: You know, I have a distrust and I think Donald Trump does as well and so do millions of other Americans. Not of government, but of the people that are in the government. You've never heard Donald Trump say that a democracy doesn't work here and that his presidency would be an authoritarian state. What you're hearing is that people are frustrated with Washington.
You've been around for a long time, Carl, and you've seen kind of the different transitions that we've experienced here with Congress, with the presidency. And so what Donald Trump and to a certain extent all the other 16 candidates that ran for the Republican nomination were constantly talking about what is wrong with our country and it's our government.
Our government has run amok. We have a clear difference between the parties here. We have one party that says that the government is the answer to everything, whereas our party, the Republican Party says, you know what, government needs to step back ...
LEMON: What is that have to do with racists and extremists?
BERNSTEIN: Can I interject here? What's interesting ...
LEMON: Let him answer my question real quick, Carl. I promise you ...
BERNSTEIN: OK, go ahead.
LEMON: What does that have to do with racists and extremists?
OSBORNE: I mean, I apologize. He said the comment about the fascism and going -- the government and distrust of government. So, but I think what you have is the root of a lot of problems here is that people don't trust our government in terms of how they're approaching our problems. And so you have both sides of the aisle that are spewing rhetoric out there that is not helpful to moving this country in the right direction. I don't believe that Donald Trump is actually igniting and putting together a coalition.
[23:45:03] In order -- to make a comment like that that he's putting together a coalition would be saying that he is actually physically making calls to people and saying, "All right, I want you to be the white races for Donald Trump coalition leader." That's not what he's doing. What he is doing is he's talking to Americans about what their problems are.
LEMON: Go ahead, Carl. BERNSTEIN: Well one, he is made an appeal much like George Wallace did do a group of people to get them out in as great numbers as they can to vote with their prejudices.
In addition, he -- I think you're selling Donald Trump short, because he's not just to identified frustration with government, he is right about identifying frustration with the so-called elites with institutions all over America that are failing the people of the country and that's what this ferment and foment is about.
And it goes beyond Donald Trump, beyond government, but he is the beneficiary of it to this, so far, in this campaign. And unless the Democrats can find a way to harness a message that says, "Look, we understand what's going on in this country, and it includes the disaffection of these people when we have to bring them back into the tent." The Democrats can be in real trouble.
BERNSTEIN: And they are in trouble.
LEMON: All right. Stay with me, gentlemen. When we come right back, what Donald Trump said to me about this subject, about racism.
[23:50:14] LEMON: Back with a great conversation we're having with Carl Bernstein and Jason Osborne. So Carl, in one of my interviews with Donald Trump, I asked him if he was racist. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Are you racist?
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am the least racist person that you have ever met. I am the least racist person.
LEMON: Are you bigoted in any way?
TRUMP: I don't think so, no. I don't think so.
TRUMP: I am a person -- no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I think it was one of two or one of three times where we talked about racism in our interviews. Carl, he says he is not a racist. Should voters taken that his word?
BERNSTEIN: I think you have to look at what his message is, and I think it's very purposeful to appeal to racism. How he treats his next door neighbor, who might be black, is he a racist in that regard? I have no idea. What I do know is that the Trump organization, Donald Trump and his father were the subject of legal action for refusing to rent their apartments in Queens, New York to black people. I think it ended -- and I'm not totally sure of all the facts here, with some kind of agreement that let the case go eventually without prejudice. But certainly there were very credible allegations that they wouldn't rent to blacks. So I think you can say there is a history of flirting with racism with Donald Trump. If indeed it helps what he's after.
LEMON: All right, Jason?
OSBORNE: I don't know the facts of that case either, Carl, but I do know that -- I believe it was back in the 1970s or maybe even the '80s. And so over the course of a 40 -- it was a 70-year-old man, so let's assume a 55-year career, that's the only instance where you could say that he could possibly be racist. I think is pulling at straws.
LEMON: I don't think he's saying that's the only -- I think he's saying that one, all right. He's saying that's (inaudible).
OSBORNE: But that's the thing. It's like -- people keep bringing that up as an example and I just don't think that's ...
LEMON: That's fair. That's fair. Go ahead, Jason.
OSBORNE: I think the policies that Donald Trump are -- is pushing out there. Again, he's not using the language that traditional political consultants or reporters are used to hearing. So that bothers them and I get that. I understand that.
But the policies he's putting forward is less government, lower taxes, securing our boarders, and actually taking care of the problems that are facing us here in America, regardless of race religion, sexual orientation, et cetera.
LEMON: OK, so Jason, no matter what you say if you, you know, maybe -- I don't know, be politically correct there's a new racism. Whenever one says, "Oh, he's not being politically correct." Does that mean that he's just being racist and no one wants to admit it?
But for him to win in November, he's going to need Latinos, he needs African-Americans and he needs other minorities to come out and support him. So if they see that these, you know, racist groups are supporting Trump, I mean, won't that be a red flag for them?
OSBORNE: You know, I don't know how many times that we have to or Donald Trump has to condemn these groups and say they don't want their endorsement. You know, I went to high school in New Orleans, and I've been dealing with David Duke issues now for almost, you know, 30 years.
Every election cycle, there's somebody that comes out and David Duke endorses and you have to continually beat it down and beat it down. We're focusing on the problems that are facing our country and that's what Donald Trump is trying to do.
And these extremist groups do not represent the campaign. They don't talk to the campaign, and they certainly don't speak for Donald Trump.
LEMON: Yeah. And I have to go. I'm sorry, Carl, we're out of time. Thank you very much. We'll be right back, everyone.
BERNSTEIN: No, problem. Good to see you.
[23:57:32] LEMON: Hillary Clinton and Elizabeth Warren didn't just campaign together for the first time today, they had a veritable hug- a-thon, not to mention a clap along. CNN's Jeanne Moos reports on the political PDA.
JEANNE MOOS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Arms around each other and affectionate squeezed, Hillary Clinton and Elizabeth Warren were practically dancing together. They hugged off stage to say goodbye and they hugged on stage for the introduction.
We haven't seen a political public display of affection like this since -- OK, maybe Hillary and Elizabeth Warren didn't get that carried away. Sure, there were a few awkward moments as everyone watch to see if the two head V.P. chemistry that holding hands up raise in victory this is always hard to pull off, just ask Ted Cruz and Carly Fiorina. But Ted and Carly didn't get accused of coordinating their outfits.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you see them matching pantsuits? There they are.
MOOS: Its twins-day on the campaign trail read one tweet. But that way look that way on T.V. actually Hillary was wearing purple, Elizabeth blue.
LISA KENNEDY MONTGOMERY, FOX NEWS COMMENTATOR: They're Thelma and Louise. At the end of the movie, they will drive the country off a cliff.
MOOS: Or maybe Senator Warren will drive Donald Trump nuts after he called her goofy she went after his make America great again hat.
WARREN: Do you want to see goofy? Look at him in that hat.
MOOS: He was wearing it as he discussed his search for a V.P.
TRUMP: I will tell you one thing that I'm getting calls from a lot of people. And they want it.
MOOS: Elizabeth Warren was like a cheerleader on steroids.
Let's give these two a hand, for all the times they gave each other a hand. WARREN: I'm with her. Yes, her.
MOOS: Like the energizer bunny just when you thought she was winding down, she sped up. Is it possible to clap your way to the vice presidency?
Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
LEMON: That's it for us tonight. That's why I'm clapping. I got to go home now. Thanks for watching. I'll see you right back here tomorrow night. Our live coverage continues now with Max Foster in London and Amara Walker in Los Angeles. Good night.
MAX FOSTER, CNN LONDON CORRESPONDENT: Hello and welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world.