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Italian Prime Minister Renzi on European Challenges; Chaos Consumes U.K.'s Labour Party; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired June 28, 2016 - 14:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: the gloves are coming off after Brexit as David Cameron arrives in Brussels. European
leaders line up to give him a message: the U.K. cannot cherry-pick a new relationship with Europe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATTEO RENZI, ITALIAN PRIME MINISTER: In my view, it's impossible to belong to community only with the good things and not with the bad things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And also ahead, how will the history books tell a story that has shaken the Western world order?
Author and historian Timothy Garton Ash joins me.
AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
Britain voted on Thursday to leave the E.U. and today the E.U. is saying Britain should leave as soon as possible. The Belgian prime minister says
that he is urging the British prime minister, David Cameron, to make a quick exit as Cameron faces the music with his 27 fellow E.U. leaders in
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID CAMERON, PRIME MINISTER, GREAT BRITAIN: I'll be explaining that Britain will be leaving the European Union but I want that process to be as
constructive as possible and I very much hope we'll seek the closest possible relationship in terms of trade and cooperation and security
because that is good for us and that is good for them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: But the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, delivered this quick warning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGELA MERKEL, CHANCELLOR OF GERMANY (through translator): We will make sure that negotiations are not carried out according to principle of
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Emotions are running sky-high.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): These pictures, worth a thousand words, when E.U. Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker aggressively whispering into the
UKIP leader's ear and a major Leave campaigner, Nigel Farage.
The tension erupted onto the floor of the European Parliament, when Farage decided to slow-clap while Juncker was talking.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEAN-CLAUDE JUNCKER, PRESIDENT, EUROPEAN COMMISSION: That's the last time you are applauding here.
JUNCKER: And, to some extent, I'm really surprised that you are here. You were fighting for the exit; the British people voted in favor of the exit.
Why are you here?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Testy and tense, because all the European leaders are worried. Many face populist calls for referenda in their own countries, like the
Italian prime minister, Matteo Renzi, who joined me from Brussels to talk about U.K. Brexit negotiations and why Europe needs to use this opportunity
to better respond to people's needs.
AMANPOUR: Prime Minister, welcome to the program.
RENZI: Good morning. Thank you so much for invitation.
AMANPOUR: Let me first ask you, from a personal perspective and from the perspective of a European leader, how do you feel?
What is your reaction to the British vote to get out of the E.U.?
RENZI: The first reaction obviously is the shock because, in the history, Europe was the place of peace and a place of a big family who grew up in
For the first time, we reduce (ph) the number but I think we must respect the vote of citizens. So this is a time to react.
The British people decide, they vote. We respect this vote and now is the moment to turn the page and to look at the future because Europe is a great
country, it's a great country and it's a great family. But Europe is also place for the new generation. So I think the shock is correct. But this
is a time of new hope, not of the shock, only the --
AMANPOUR: So let me -- let me separate those for a moment.
First and foremost, what kind of a reaction do you think Prime Minister Cameron will get?
I mean, this is possibly his last face-to-face in terms of real sort of nitty-gritty talks with European leaders.
What are you going to say to him?
How do you expect him to address you?
And will there be any actual substantive talks about the way forward at this time right now?
RENZI: I am close friend of David and I respect the decision to call the referendum. But when the referendum was organized, now we haven't
alternatives to open the procedure of Article 50, who means that the exit of British --
RENZI: -- from U.E. (sic). This is the only way. Obviously, we respect the discussions inside a Conservative Party in U.K. and also in the Labour
Party and so I think this procedure we will open after the decision of congress of party in September.
But if we can wait for some weeks to decisions of a English party we don't wait for a lot of times because institutions, financial markets and,
particularly, citizens don't -- cannot -- it's impossible for them continue with the lack of uncertain times.
So we respect the decision. We wait for opening, formal opening of procedure. But then we must discuss not about rules and procedures; we
must discuss about the future of Europe. We respect David. We wait for the decision. But it's not possible to continue to lose time.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, you must be watching with some bemusement the reaction here in the U.K. since the vote. There is a lot of division about
what the whole vote means and, indeed, some key members of the Leave campaign are, let's say, changing the goalposts, moving the goalposts about
what they want.
They want access to the single market, the principals are saying. They may be willing to walk back some of their immigration talk (INAUDIBLE)
according to the E.U. to allow Britain to remain part of the single market and give Britain more ability to restrict the free movement of European
people and labor.
RENZI: In my view, it's impossible to belong to community only with the good things and not with the bad things. In every family, if you belong to
family, you must accept the good things and the bad things. It's impossible to speak only about single market and not accept politics about
It's impossible to be very communitarian about the economy and not about values. This is the problem, in my view, about this campaign. And I'm
really touched personally by the reactions of young people in U.K.
I propose, yes, certainly, to Angela Merkel and to Francois Hollande to give a possibility, a opportunity to young students by U.K.. The people
will visit, who study in the European universities, in my view, must have the possibility to have the European citizenship and the European passport.
So I'm ready to create some initiatives for the people who come from U.K. but it's impossible to accept the idea for U.K. is possible to bring only
the good thing from European ideals and not the problem.
I'm Italian. I know the reaction about migration. We discussed just some months ago, Christiane, about the risks for migration. You discussed about
the risk of Mediterranean become a cemetery.
Now it's time to have a solidity of Europe and also common values, not only a common market. We are more than financial values. We are ideal values.
This is my priority and the priority for Europe --
AMANPOUR: Well, Matteo Renzi, prime minister, you seem to be under threat in your own country, Italy, because Italy, France, Denmark and many other
countries have nationalist movements and protest movements that also want to get out of Europe. They're calling for referenda everywhere we look, in
Netherlands, et cetera.
Is this a serious worry?
And people fear that if one is called in Italy, it might win.
How worried are you about the contagion?
RENZI: I don't know if it's possible to give the same value to different populists just to make an example. In Italy, five-star (ph) movement is
very close to Farage movement and they sit in the same places in the European parliaments.
But in France the Marine Le Pen party is very near, very close to Lega Nord in my country. So there are differences between populists. My opinion is
that this moment is a moment of change, very strong change. The difference are not the traditional differences between Right and Left but the fear and
But world based and focused on the rules --
RENZI: -- as some leaders also in European Union are proposed and the world focused on the square, on the opening, on the dialogue. I think my
country is a great country because believe in the future, focused on the square and not on the world's.
AMANPOUR: Prime Minister, is that what you mean about this could be a new opportunity for Europe?
And I ask you because, as you know, today, many of the East European nations inside the E.U., the former Baltic nations as well, are mounting
sort of a challenge to the E.U. leadership and saying that they haven't performed well and that really it's a time for massive change. So there's
a real division amongst you all as well.
RENZI: Yes, there is (INAUDIBLE) -- division is clear. I know. I see this risk. But exactly for that my proposal is -- and not all am I -- is
invest in idea about the future. Sixty years ago in Rome, the great man, the founding fathers of Europe, citing the first ideas about not only steel
and energy but about common values.
They used steel and energy to create a family, who gave us 60 years of peace for the first time in the history. But in this case, they used the
think more important and not only the problem of division. This is the same time. We must invest in a different approach about Europe.
And this is important also for the Baltic and for the other countries. Every year, my country gave 20 billion of euro to European budget to give
support to these country. And we come back, we give back only 12 billion. So we lost a lot of money to give an future to the new countries in Europe.
It's time to use this money not only for economic approach but also for the value approach, for the young students, for the people who believe in these
values. It's not time of division. This is a time of a vision, a vision for the future of Europe.
And as a member of a new generation because, at 41 year old, I think this is the real priority for the new generation, not the divisions between
politicians but the vision for a new generation of leaders. This is our priority. It's our challenge now.
AMANPOUR: On that note, Italian prime minister, Matteo Renzi, thank you for joining me from Brussels this morning.
RENZI: Thank you, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: So that was before the meetings with Cameron and they will be having that dinner with the prime minister later this evening.
Now when we come back, we'll have more on the Brexit meltdown here in the U.K.
But first we learned this week that the London Polish community center was defaced with racist graffiti after the Brexit vote on Thursday. Now it was
founded by Polish emigres who had fought with the British Royal Air Force in World War II. So it's perhaps timely to remember their story.
Sixteen squadrons of Polish airmen flew from British air bases during World War II over 80,000 sorties alongside their British comrades. At the end of
the war, a grateful nation erected the Polish War Memorial near the RAF base that was their HQ. And it stands today as a symbol of their
Now in these uncertain days, in Bristol, a florist is offering free roses to immigrants trying to help them still to consider this home, sweet home.
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
Now chaos has consumed Britain's main opposition party, the Labour Party, as MPs turn on their leader, Jeremy Corbyn. Today they overwhelmingly
voted against him in a motion of no confidence. That was 172-40.
Labour MP Ben Bradshaw is one of the many calling for Corbyn to resign and he joins me now from just outside Parliament.
AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, Mr. Bradshaw. Those are staggering numbers. There's a definite lack of confidence from you MPs. But Jeremy
Corbyn has so far vowed that he will stay, come what may.
BEN BRADSHAW, LABOUR MP: Yes, and I think that's regrettable, Christiane, because I think if Jeremy really cares about the interests of the Labour
Party but also of Britain's national interests, he would step down. It's not possible for an opposition leader to continue with so little confidence
of his parliamentary party.
He won't even be able to form a front bench in Parliament here to hold the government to account and at this moment of real peril for Britain in the
aftermath of the referendum, we need a strong and effective and a competent opposition and we still hope that he'll smell the coffee and step down.
AMANPOUR: So what happens?
Because the people who support him, including one of the major trade unions, say that he has so much support amongst activists, Labour activists
around the country.
And we've heard anecdotally -- and maybe you can confirm this to us -- that Jeremy Corbyn and his right-hand man, the shadow chancellor, plan to be the
whole shadow cabinet themselves and switch jobs on the front bench.
Is that even possible under the rules?
BRADSHAW: It doesn't sound practical to me, even if it's possible. But I sense that the support that he undoubtedly had eight months ago, 10 months
ago, in country among members is ebbing away.
Labour Party members and voters here are very pro--European and they're deeply disappointed by the lack of leadership that Jeremy Corbyn showed in
the referendum campaign. And they're also looking at the prospect of an early election in the autumn.
I just don't think he has the leadership skills to take us into the election and win that election and take us through the turbulent times
we're facing now.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Bradshaw, will you demand an election?
Because from what we gather, it's a leadership contest amongst the Tory Party to replace the resigning prime minister, David Cameron.
Does there have to be an election at this time?
Or can he just take over and be prime minister until the end of this Parliament?
BRADSHAW: Constitutionally, there doesn't have to be an election but I think it would be politically impossible for whoever takes over from David
Cameron to carry on governing this country without a mandate.
You may remember Gordon Brown, our former prime minister. He did that; he became prime minister. He didn't hold an election when many of us were
recommending him to do so. And I think he lost the trust of the people because of that.
And we've got this massive uncertainty, this really important renegotiation of our relationship with Europe and the world.
And whoever is prime minister is going to want to seek a national mandate for that.
AMANPOUR: Again, Mr. Bradshaw, a lot of Labour activists are saying -- or Labour Party members are saying they may not vote for the party in the next
general election. And a lot of them went to UKIP in this campaign. You say that he didn't do a good enough job, the leadership, in the Remain
Are you concerned that Labour is losing and UKIP will rise?
Are you concerned that Farage will become a kingmaker?
BRADSHAW: I'm not really concerned about Nigel Farage because I think now that we've had this referendum, he's a busted flush. But I am concerned
about Labour support ebbing away.
There was an opinion poll out this week that showed that currently three out of 10 voters who voted for Labour last year in our general election,
our second worst result in modern history, wouldn't vote for us in an election now under Jeremy Corbyn.
And that is why it is absolutely paramount for the interests of my party but also for British democracy that Labour has a competent leader who can
take us through these troubling times into an early election in the autumn.
AMANPOUR: And just very quickly, because everybody keeps talking about it, do you think there's any hope at all that this referendum can be defeated
in Parliament, either by the majority of parliamentaries who didn't want to leave the E.U. or by somehow a second referendum?
BRADSHAW: Christiane, I think it's impossible to predict what's happening in Britain in the next seconds or minutes, let alone in the next weeks or
months. But you're right, there's a parliamentary majority here for us to stay in the European Union and it depends what deal, whoever is our prime
minister gets from Europe. Whatever it is, they'll either --
BRADSHAW: -- have to put it, in my view, to another referendum or to a general election. So nothing is certain in British politics at the moment.
Everything is in the mix. And I think the only people who can predict certainty in the future are either mad or drunk.
AMANPOUR: On that note, Labour MP Ben Bradshaw, thanks for joining us from Parliament this evening.
BRADSHAW: My pleasure.
AMANPOUR: So the vast majority of London voters chose to stay in the E.U. but that feeling isn't shared across this country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): You can see just how much of England voted to leave, colored in red on this map that we're showing you there. Among the
most determined to get out: people in the city of Hull on the east coast. And CNN's Phil Black shows us why so many there are so fed up with the club
PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Europe is that way, across the North Sea. Every morning, ferries disembark their cargo from the
Netherlands and Belgium here on the banks of the River Humber in Northern England.
This long, loud trade convoy then disperses across the United Kingdom and every evening trucks loaded with British products make the return journey
to the continent.
It's why this city, Hull, is often called the gateway to Europe.
But that's a glamorous title for a long neglected city. Life in Hull is hard for many. Parts of this community are among the poorest and most
deprived in the whole United Kingdom. And they showed recently they're among the most fed up with the European Union.
BLACK: Did you vote?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did so, yes.
BLACK: How did you vote?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I voted Out.
BLACK (voice-over): By a ratio of more than 2:1, the people of Hull voted for Britain to exit the E.U.
BLACK: Why did you vote Leave?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just fed up with being told what we can do and what we can't do.
BLACK (voice-over): It's something you hear a lot. They backed Brexit because they feel they have nothing to lose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not to (INAUDIBLE), are we? I don't think so.
BLACK: Why do you feel that way?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we're not going nowhere anyway.
No, it's -- you -- because (INAUDIBLE) isn't there. You'll never get there when your two weeks' went (INAUDIBLE) your doctor's.
BLACK (voice-over): Another common view: the local result was punishment for the policies of British politicians, especially the ruling Conservative
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've been let down by (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're sick and tired of not hearing their voice being said.
BLACK (voice-over): For many there is also the sense things have changed here too quickly and for the worse because of immigration.
BLACK: A lot of people in Hull voted to leave.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, yes.
BLACK: Big number.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Big, big numbers.
BLACK: Why do you think that happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Same reasons, I'm thinking. Just like it doesn't seem to be safe anymore. (INAUDIBLE) it was always like a really close-knit
community. But now too many gangs of (INAUDIBLE).
BLACK: Were you surprised by the result in Hull?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I was.
BLACK (voice-over): Angus Young covers politics for Hull's local newspaper. He says recent European immigration has energized parts of the
economy, with shops opening on formally abandoned streets. But there are social strains, too.
ANGUS YOUNG, "HULL DAILY MAIL": There has been a big influx and it's caused a lot of tension and it's displaced a lot of people, people feeling
uneasy, put a lot of pressure on services.
BLACK (voice-over): There is money coming into Hull, private, public and from the E.U. This is a huge project, more than 300 million pounds
invested by the German company, Siemens, and Associated British Port to build a plant for making the blades for offshore wind turbines.
Some here are predicting jobs and growth. But too many believe they've been left behind in the wake of economic change. In angry protest, they
demand the E.U. flag and much of what it stands for must now be removed from this gateway to Europe -- Phil Black, CNN, in Hull, Northern England.
AMANPOUR: And after a break, we imagine another English exit but this is one nobody voted for. We're talking Iceland booting England out of the
UEFA championships last night. They think it's all over, well, it is for England -- after this.
AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine an enchanted world, where tiny Iceland beats overwhelming odds with its volcanic roar.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): So that was the unlikely scene at the Euro 2016 football tournament last night, as Iceland blazed to a 2-1 victory over
England, which is now reeling from its second E.U. exit in less than a week.
Iceland overcame staggering odds, though. It had never played a major tournament before and only around 100 people actually play professional
football in the whole country.
Basically if you're a man between ages 20 and 40, your chance of playing in the national team is one in 2,000 but this David is a nation of 330,000,
facing off against a Goliath, the 65-million strong Britain.
While the English players are among the highest paid in the world, Iceland's team have day jobs. The goalie, for instance, is a part-time
film director and the coach is a part-time dentist.
The love of football seems to have affected the presidential elections as well, as turnout was lower than usual because a 10th of Iceland's
population -- that's about 30,000 soccer fans -- were in France for the tournament instead of back home voting.
That's it for our program tonight. Remember, you can listen to our podcast at any time, see us online at amanpour.com and follow me on Facebook and
Twitter. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.