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NATO Summit to Begin in Warsaw; Videos Capture Killings by Police; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 7, 2016 - 14:00   ET




CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: high stakes for European security, confronting an aggressive Russia. NATO's secretary

general, Jens Stoltenberg, calls their upcoming summit in Warsaw a defining moment.


JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: I will just convey a very clear message, that NATO is united, NATO is there and NATO is actually more

united and stronger than we have been for a very long time.


AMANPOUR: Plus, anger and outrage after police officers shoot and kill two black Americans in two days. One of the victim's family calls it a sign of

war against their community. I speak to author and journalist, Jelani Cobb, who's investigated this in his new documentary, "Policing the



AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

NATO leaders prepare for what they're calling a landmark summit in Warsaw as the future of European security has never been more delicately in the

balance. The alliance will announce major new troop deployments to the Baltics and Poland, as Eastern members face an increasingly muscular

Russian military machine and an unpredictable Kremlin.

And not a moment too soon, as the former NATO Supreme Allied Commander, General Philip Breedlove, told me.


GEN. PHILIP BREEDLOVE, SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER, NATO: We need to increase the overall readiness and responsiveness of the entire NATO force.

Increased readiness and responsiveness is a strong signal of deterrence. We are not positioned correctly right now with our forces.


AMANPOUR: But what are Moscow's real intentions?

And how should NATO respond?

First and foremost, with a united front, says Germany's Angela Merkel.


ANGELA MERKEL, CHANCELLOR OF GERMANY (through translator): That solidarity has to and will continue to be visible in the future. It will add elements

of deterrence and defense abilities of the alliance.


AMANPOUR: So as he awaits NATO presidents and prime ministers from the United States, Europe and Turkey, Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg told

me what's taking shape on the ground.


AMANPOUR: Secretary General, welcome to the program.


AMANPOUR: Recently retired Commander General Breedlove has said that NATO is not properly positioned to successfully deter a Russian aggression.

Do you agree with that?

STOLTENBERG: I agree that we have to adapt NATO to a new security environment and not least based on excellent advice from General Breedlove.

We are in the midst of the process of adapting NATO to new challenges, including increasing the readiness of our forces and increasing our

presence in the eastern part of the alliance with more troops there and also with prepositioning of equipment.

So we are in the midst of the biggest reinforcement of our collective defense system of the Cold War because we see that it is a more challenging

security environment facing us.

AMANPOUR: How many more forces?

Is it hundreds, is it tens of thousands, is it thousands?

And will they be positioned permanently on your eastern flank?

STOLTENBERG: What we are doing is that we are going to have four battalions, one battalion in each of the three Baltic countries and one in

Poland. And they will be there the whole time on a rotational basis.

But that's only one part of our response because we have, for instance, tripled the size of the NATO response force to 40,000 troops. And the lead

elements of this new high readiness force is able to move within a matter of days.

So it's partly a question of having more troops in the eastern part of the alliance but also very much a question of having more troops which are able

to reinforce, to be deployed on very short notice if needed.

And combined with more equipment, more surprise, prepositioned, more exercises and also more headquarters for more planning and decision-making

on short notice, we are able to defend and protect our allies, even with a more assertive Russia to our east.

AMANPOUR: Is it fair to say that NATO is being sort of retrained --


AMANPOUR: -- if you will, to fight in their own backyard, after all these years post-9/11 of being deployed much further, fighting

counterinsurgencies around the world?

STOLTENBERG: NATO has to focus more on collective defense in Europe because we see a Russia which has implemented substantial military buildup

over many years. And the Russia which has used military force against independent sovereign nations in Europe, Ukraine.

And therefore we have started to change our military posture to be able to continue to provide strong defense, strong deterrence.

And the reason to have strong deterrence and defense is not to provoke a conflict but it is to prevent the conflict, sending a military message that

an attack on any NATO ally will trigger the response from the whole alliance.

AMANPOUR: General Breedlove told me that the only way to be successful in doing all that you're talking about is to start from a position of

strength, that Russian president Vladimir Putin only understands strength.

From your perspective as a former prime minister, do you find that -- is that a credible description of President Putin?

STOLTENBERG: We need strong defense and strong deterrence to prevent conflict. But, at the same time, I strongly believe that we also need

political dialogue with Russia because Russia is our biggest neighbor. Russia is there to stay. And we hope to avoid a new Cold War and we hope

to avoid a new arms race. And I don't see any contradiction between strong defense and political dialogue.

Actually my experience from Norwegian politics, being a neighbor of Russia in the north, is that, as long as we are strong, as long as we are united

in the alliance, we can also engage in a political dialogue with Russia, not least to prevent incidents, accidents like, for instance, the downing

of the Russian plane over Turkey.

We have to prevent that kind of incidents. And if they happen, make sure that they don't spiral out of control and create really dangerous


There has been a lot of tension but you have just announced that the NATO- Russia Council will be meeting next week.

Is that a result of this change of posture?

Who decided that, Russia or the Western alliance?

STOLTENBERG: We decided that together with Russia. And we believe it is important to keep channels for political dialogue open. And we believe

it's important to be as transparent and as predictable as possible, especially now.

When tensions are high, it's even more important that we talk, that we communicate and that we try to avoid miscalculations and misunderstandings.

AMANPOUR: Well, precisely to that issue, there are several NATO experts, intelligence and military experts, who basically say that NATO is very bad

at analyzing and, therefore, predicting Russian intent, mentioning that NATO failed to predict Russia's invasion of Georgia, Ukraine and its

military operations in Syria.

Do you even know what Russia's intent is?

STOLTENBERG: Russia is more unpredictable now than some years ago. And increased unpredictability adds to the uncertainty. And that's one of the

reasons why we are adapting, why we are increasing the readiness and the preparedness of our forces so they are able to move, to react very quickly.

So uncertainty is part of the new reality. It's hard to predict exactly what is going to happen but we have to be prepared to react quickly and to

manage an uncertain future and unforeseen events. And that's exactly what we are preparing for.

AMANPOUR: And you talk about this unpredictability. There are obviously some NATO members which are more worried, the Eastern NATO members who know

the Soviet aggression in their own countries. You've got the German foreign minister, who called the current war games that have been going on,

for instance, in the Baltics for many months now, involving thousands of troops, a disastrous piece of saber-rattling, a war cry.

You know, there are divisions in NATO, aren't there?

People are not quite sure how best to tackle Russia.

STOLTENBERG: NATO is an alliance of 28 democracies. And in democratic societies, there will always be different views, different opinions and

open discussions. And I don't think that's a weakness. I think actually that's a strength, as long as we're able to reach conclusions, make

decisions and then implement them.

And that's exactly what we have done. We have reached conclusions, made decisions to reinforce our military presence in the eastern part of the

alliance. Germany is part of that but we are also been able to agree that we should continue the political dialogue with Russia to prevent a --


STOLTENBERG: -- new Cold War, to prevent a new arms race and this message of defense and dialogue is a message which the whole alliance is behind.

And I'm certain that the NATO summit in Warsaw will also strongly reconfirm that message.

AMANPOUR: Interesting times. Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, thank you for joining us from Warsaw tonight.



AMANPOUR: So a resolute message from the NATO summit.

Coming up, we go to the United States and another piercing cry for justice after two more fatal shootings of black men by police in just two days. I

speak to "The New Yorker's" Jelani Cobb for a unique perspective on a deadly crisis that looks very much like it's spinning out of control.




AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

And what we have next is a very ugly story indeed, a crisis in the United States. And the latest outrages really have to be seen to be believed.

Last night a policeman shoots dead a black man in Minnesota and the victim's partner livestreams and narrates the entire graphic incident on



DIAMOND REYNOLDS, PHILANDO CASTILE'S FIANCEE: Stay with me. We got pulled over for a busted taillight in the back. And the (INAUDIBLE) -- he's

covered. He ain't kill my (INAUDIBLE). He's licensed, he's carry -- he's licensed to carry.

He was trying to get out his ID and his wallet out his pocket and he let the officer know that he was -- he had a firearm and he was reaching for

his wallet. And the officer just shot him in his arm. We're waiting for - -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep your hands where they are.

REYNOLDS: I will, sir. No worries. I (INAUDIBLE).

He just shot his arm off. We got pulled over on Larpenteur --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I told him not to reach for it. I told him to get his hand open.

REYNOLDS: He had -- you told him to get his ID, sir, his driver's license.

Oh, my God. Please don't tell me he's dead.


Please don't tell me my boyfriend just went like that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep your hands where they are, please.

REYNOLDS: Yes, I will, sir. I'll keep my hands where they are.

Please don't tell me this, Lord, please, Jesus, don't tell me that he's gone. Please don't tell me that he's gone. Please, officer, don't tell me

that you just did this to him.

You shot four bullets into him, sir. He was just getting his license and registration, sir.


AMANPOUR: And her 4-year-old daughter witnessed the whole thing in the back seat of the car.

Minnesota's governor is pledging to see justice served. But this shooting came right after another black man was killed, this time in Louisiana.

That was also caught on tape.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Within just a couple of seconds, the confrontation escalates: 37-year-old Alton Sterling, a black man, is

pinned down by two white police officers outside the Triple S food mart in North Baton Rouge.

Someone yells "Gun."

Then --


Oh, my goodness.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Video of Tuesday morning's shooting, recorded by witnesses inside a nearby car, was posted on social media --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): -- and sparked protests in the neighborhood.

Sterling died of multiple gunshot wounds to the chest and back. His son, Cameron Sterling, and the young man's mother made a powerful appearance

before reporters.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The individuals involved in his murder took away a man with children, who depended upon their daddy on a daily basis. My son

is not the youngest. He is the oldest of his siblings. He is 15 years old. He had to watch this, as this was put all over the outlets.


AMANPOUR: Now that investigation is in the hands of the U.S. Justice Department. More details are likely to emerge. But both killings fit a

deeply troubling and deadly pattern in America.

Joining me now is "The New Yorker" staff writer, Jelani Cobb, who has just made a documentary on this issue, called "Policing the Police."

Mr. Cobb, thank you for joining me. Welcome from New York.

What was your reaction when you saw that tape, particularly of the girlfriend of the man -- of the gentleman in Minnesota?

There she was livestreaming and narrating and calling the policeman "sir."

JELANI COBB, "THE NEW YORKER": She referred to the police officer as sir, I think, five times that I counted.

It was grotesque, just the entire -- the entire spectacle. I think it's difficult for anybody to watch that and not be horrified.

And all the more, I think what struck me was that her calm demeanor and the way that she maintained her composure was in sharp contrast to the

emotionality of the officer who was pointing the weapon.

And it occurred to me that she was being composed in an effort to save her life and her daughter's life, her 4-year-old daughter's life, and to not do

anything that might kind of provoke the officer to fire again and, at the same time, wanted to make sure that the public knew.

I took that gesture of kind of livestreaming what was happening as a means of reaching out for witnesses that could see what was happening, what was

going on there, so that, in the event that there was more gunfire, at least people would know what became of them. It's just a kind of horrific view.

AMANPOUR: Let me just play for you what she said about why she livestreamed it because she talked today to people. Let me play you what

she said.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did it so that the world knows that these police are not here to protect and serve us. They are here to assassinate us.

They are here to kill us because we are black.

I have not been able to do anything besides hold my daughter, tell her I thank her, how much of a superhero she is because she is an angel. She

knew that he was gone before I knew.

And she said, "Mom, the police are bad guys. They killed him and he's never coming back."


AMANPOUR: Jelani, you have been investigating in Newark, New Jersey. You've been watching the police, you've been talking to them. You've been

talking to people around there.

What is going on in your communities?

And do you believe the Minnesota officials, who say justice will be served?

COBB: Well, I mean, it's really -- it's -- the kind of paradox here is that we went to Newark to do this documentary because this was a city that

was in the midst of doing reform, that they were trying to change their police department to make sure that something like what we saw in Baton

Rouge and in Minnesota wouldn't happen there.

And we were kind of going along with the process to see what goes into attempting to do that. And that's what we were observing there and then to

see in two other places exactly what happens when you are not proactive about these things. And it makes it very difficult to say.

If we looked at the recent results in terms of what happened in Staten Island with Eric Garner's death and what happened in Ohio with Tamir Rice's

death and, really, too many other instances to recount all of them, Sandra Bland and Rekia Boyd, it doesn't lend itself to the suspicion that there

will be justice in the offing, at least not the way that people understand justice in many of these communities, the people who saw this and thinks

that there needs to be accountability.

It -- who knows what will happen in this particular case?

But the general trend is for that not to happen.

AMANPOUR: Well, you know, "The Washington Post" reports that Philando Castile in Minnesota was the 123rd person to be shot by police in 2016,

black Americans.


AMANPOUR: Pete Rosenberg, who's a radio host in the United States and has taken on this issue quite a lot, was livid. He had a policeman calling

into his show. Listen to this exchange.


PETE ROSENBERG, RADIO HOST: Well, how about y'all lead the movement instead?

How about instead of people writing, police officers get out in front of it themselves?

And you guys are the first ones on the front lines. That's what should happen. Instead of you struggling to say, well, I don't know, it could be,

they murdered that man. We just saw it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't agree with you.

ROSENBERG: What do you mean?

Are you watching it?


AMANPOUR: I see you smiling and all of us, none of us can believe what -- how that policeman responded.

I mean there just seems to be a gathering, you know, rounding up the wagons and each policeman defending each other and all of them saying that they

were under threat.

But we perfectly well heard the hyped-up, adrenalined reaction of the policeman in Minnesota.

I mean, again, what will it take for the black community to somehow insist on their rights?

COBB: Well, I mean I think that -- trust I'm not smiling out of amusement.

AMANPOUR: No, no, I know.

COBB: -- shock, horror, yes.

But I think that it's also clear, people have been demanding their rights since the inception of this country.

And I think the question is what will it take for people to actually adhere to that, for people to recognize the humanity of people who are victims?

And the other thing that's important to say about this -- and not that I should have to say it in order for nonblack Americans to care about the

issue -- but this is a country in which a lot of people are shot by police each year, the majority of whom are not black.

And so we have a big problem with police shootings. We have a big problem with violence in this country, period, writ large. But generally there are

lots of instances of police use of force that we should be looking at.

They disproportionately happen to people of color, certainly. But this is something that people need to be invested in, generally speaking, because

even if we didn't count the African Americans and the Latinos who are killed by police, we still have shootings that would number in the multiple

hundreds and would kind of horrify when we compare ourselves to other Western democracies.

AMANPOUR: Well, it's certainly and that's why we always, you know, try to talk about these issues when it happens here. And it is completely out of

line with all other Western democracies.

You know, you talked about the disproportionate number of deaths. Again, this is what the girlfriend of Philando Castile said about how she feels

and her community feels after this killing. Listen again.


REYNOLDS: They did not check for pulse on the scene of the crime. They did not make sure that he was breathing. They instantly rushed their

colleague off to the side, where they comforted him.

I was treated like a criminal. I was treated like I was the one who did this. They were very, very racist towards me. They treated me like this

was my fault.


AMANPOUR: Jelani, what can one say to that?

COBB: I have no idea, honestly. This is just horrible and it's something that we've seen time and time again. It's something that we've seen with a

very sickening commonality and frequency.

And so there has to be a proactive approach. This has to be something that people take seriously. There has to be some recognition that, even if you

are in a place where there is, you know, high crime or if you're tasked with keeping the public safe, that does not give carte blanche to treat the

entire community as if they are criminal suspects.

And if not this kind of thing, this is what culminates when that kind of thing happens.

AMANPOUR: Well, we thank you very much indeed for being here to talk us through this. Thank you very much.

COBB: Thank you.


AMANPOUR: And you can watch Jelani Cobb's documentary, "Policing the Police," online at

And after a break, we look to our sporting heroes for some relief from this week packed with anger and violence, as we've just seen. All the action

from Euro 2016, from Wimbledon and from Westminster because politics is a contact sport, too, isn't it?

That's next.





AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, in a week so fraught with discord and violence, we imagine a world with a whole load of good on the sidelines.

In the British tradition of the plucky little underdog, we've been inspired by sporting heroes making headlines on the back pages this week.

In the Euro 2016 semifinals last night, Wales finally bowed out, losing 2-0 to Portugal, Real Madrid teammates Gareth Bale and Cristiano Ronaldo facing

off for their national sides.

For Wales, though, even this loss was a triumphant end to the journey that brought them unfancied and unheralded to their first major tournament since

1958, outlasting the champion, Spain, and, to their delight, England, too.

Meantime, drama unfolding at Wimbledon and Westminster at the same time. While Tony Blair was apologizing to the court of public opinion for

mistakes made going to war in Iraq, on court, Roger Federer was proving himself to be the comeback kid.

The greatest champ of all time, older now, summoned every ounce of guile and talent to drag victory from the jaws of defeat and earn himself a place

in the semis after a two-set deficit to his much younger opponent, Marin Cilic.

And while we're at it, Brexit's toxic fallout and its multiple back stabbings has produced this: today we learned that the next British prime

minister will be a woman.

Which one?

Well, that's for the next round of vote counting.

And who says there are no silver linings?

Thats it for our program tonight. Remember, you can now also listen to our podcast, see us online at and follow me on Facebook and

Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.