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Campaign Chairman: Trump To Announce VP Pick Friday; Clinton Calls Trump "Dangerous... Divisive"; Police: Serial Killer Linked To 7 Deaths; Boston Protest Against Police Shootings; Alton Sterling's Son Shares Memories; New Study Shows Bias In Use Of Force, Not Shootings; Castile's Family Releases Carry Permit Documentation; Slain Dallas Officers Mourned At Funerals. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired July 13, 2016 - 21:00   ET



[21:00:39] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, good evening. Thanks for joining us. We begin this hour with breaking news straight from the top man of the Trump campaign. Donald Trump will name his running mate on Friday. We got new details in the family's role in the decision. It sounds a little bit like they've staged almost kind of an intervention.

Also tonight, Hillary Clinton then talks or calls Trump dangerous to the country. That's far, far from all she said. CNN's Jeff Zeleny had the Clinton's story. CNN's Sunlen Serfaty is working her sources on the Trump veepstakes and we begin with her.

So reportedly Sunlen, he's going to announce the pick on Friday. How soon does Trump actually think he'll make the decision?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, it definitely sounds like it will be made over the course of the next 24 hours. Trump left here in Indianapolis a few hours ago in Denver to California while he'll have a fundraising doing, but his frenzied meeting today here in Indianapolis really underscore that he is still actively deliberating this decision.


SERFATY: Donald Trump is nearing a final decision and possibly one of the most important of his campaign. His choice of a running mate.

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I'm narrowing it down. I mean, I'm at three, potentially four, but in my own mind I probably am thinking about two.

SERFATY: The presumptive Republican nominee and his family having a private breakfast with Indiana Governor Mike Pence at the governor's mansion in Indianapolis.

GOV. MIKE PENCE, (R) INDIANA: It was just very warm and just one family meeting with another. We were really honored to have not only Mr. Trump, but a number of his children. SERFATY: A Trump campaign source tells CNN that Trump and Pence and their families are getting along fabulously during the Indiana trip. Trump's Hoosier state visiting included a rally Tuesday night with Pence getting the chance to audition for the role.

PENCE: To paraphrase the director of the FBI, I think it would be extremely careless to elect Hillary Clinton as the next president of the United States.

SERFATY: But Trump is not tipping his hand.

TRUMP: I don't know whether he's going to be your governor or your vice president, who the hell knows.

SERFATY: With a final decision looming, Trump holding a flurry of meetings with other VP contenders today in Indianapolis. Including Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich who has support among some Trump family members.

NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: It's a little bit like "The Apprentice". You find out sooner or later who the last one standing is.

SERFATY: Trump also speaking by phone with Chris Christie who was in Washington to participate in transition meeting. The two also had a face-to-face meeting, Tuesday. Sources tell CNN that Christie remains the finalist with Trump looking for a fighter. A role of the New Jersey governor has shown he can play.

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) NEW JERSEY: The Democratic nominee for president put her own political convenience ahead of the safety and the security of the American people.

SERFATY: Trump also taking a medium with trusted advisor Jeff Sessions, the Alabama Senator flying from Washington, D.C. to Indiana this morning to help the billionaire through the decision process.


COOPER: You know, it's interesting Sunlen, who a -- essentially Wall Street Journal and yesterday, he wanted an attack dog. And then it seems like today, in another interview he said he sort of no longer leads looking for that. Do we know what exactly he's looking for in a vice presidential pick?

SERFATY: Well he for a long time, Anderson, has time and time again, so that he really wants someone with legislative experience, theoretically someone with executive experience who has contacts in Washington. But you're absolutely right that he has been in the last few days giving, quite frankly, conflicting requirements for what he wants his running mate to have. He for so long has said he wanted an attack dog, as recently as yesterday said he wants someone that can fight and get in there and serve in that traditional VP attack dog role.

But just tonight in another interview he said point blank that he wants someone solid, smart, and said, no, I don't want an attack dog. So, certainly he's sending a lot of mixed messages and you can read into that what you will.

He also we know is relying heavily on the input of his family behind the scenes. Not only are they holding these meetings with some of the short list, but they are letting their opinions know. Some are rooting for Newt Gingrich. Others are pushing for Indiana Governor Mike Pence. Anderson?

COOPER: All right. Sunlen thanks very much.

No word on the running mate from Hillary Clinton, however, a plenty of words today about her opponent. CNN's Jeff Zeleny reports on that.


[21:05:06] JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Hillary Clinton excoriated Donald Trump today.

HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I believe Donald Trump is so dangerous. His campaign is as divisive as any we have seen in our lifetimes. It is built on stoking mistrust and pitting American against American.

ZELENY: In the same hall Abraham Lincoln delivered his house divided speech against slavery, Clinton said Trump is dividing America.

CLINTON: The challenges we face today do not approach those of Lincoln's time, but recent events have left people across America asking hard questions about whether we are still a house divided.

ZELENY: Facing tight polls in battleground states, Clinton is trying yet again to raise doubts about her rival.

CLINTON: This man is the nominee of the party of Lincoln. We are watching it become the party of Trump and that's not just a huge loss for our democracy, it is a threat to it.

ZELENY: She called for healing in the wake of deepening racial tension.

CLINTON: Let's put ourselves in the shoes of police officers kissing their kids and spouses goodbye every day and heading off to a dangerous job we need them to do.

ZELENY: And she asked white Americans to be more understanding of the real fear families experience in cities across the country.

CLINTON: Let's put ourselves in the shoes of African-Americans and Latinos and tries us best as we can to imagine what it would be like if we had to have the talk with our kids about how carefully they need to act.

TRUMP: Thank you.

ZELENY: Calling himself the law and order candidate, Trump is taking aim at the Black Lives Matter movement.

TRUMP: I think the term is very divisive. The first time I heard it I said, you have to be kidding.

ZELENY: When asked if the American justice system is biased against African-Americans, Trump replied.

TRUMP: Well I've been saying even against me the system is rigged. I can relate it really very much to myself.

ZELENY: And Clinton seized on the moment.

CLINTON: Even this, the killing of people is somehow all about him.

ZELENY: Her speech at the old state house in Springfield, Illinois, the same place Barack Obama announced his presidential bid nine years ago was also an effort to improve her own political standing.

CLINTON: I cannot stand here and claim that my words and actions haven't sometimes fueled the partisanship that often stands in the way of progress. So I recognize I have to do better, too.


COOPER: Jeff, has there been any update on who Hillary Clinton is close to picking for a vice president?

ZELENY: Anderson, she is narrowing her choices as well here. She is going to wait and see who Donald Trump picks because he has to go first because, of course, the Republican Convention is next week. She has an extra week here, but I am told she is narrowing her choices too about a handful or fewer.

On that list for certain is Tim Cane, the senator from Virginia who she will appear with tomorrow actually at a campaign stop in Northern Virginia. One of the few times, she's actually out auditioning in public. But Anderson, her process is so different than Donald Trump.

The Clinton campaign headquarters in Brooklyn was watching all of this unfold today with amazement. Their bosses could not be anymore different. They're decision making couldn't be anymore different. They're watching this in real time.

All of this selection for Hillary Clinton is happening behind closed doors. Only her, her lawyers and a few other people know what she's actually doing. Other names on the list, Sherrod Brown, the senator from Ohio, possibly Elizabeth Warren still, although most of her advisors believe she's no longer the running. Possibly Cory Booker, the senator from New Jersey, but Anderson, it is a very, very tight list here. There is nothing even unfolding even slightly to compare with what Donald Trump is doing as we've seen play out all day long.

COOPER: Yes. It's been fascinating. Jeff Zeleny. Jeff thanks.

The panel is back joining us his hour also a CNN Political Analyst and New York Times Political Correspondent Patrick Healey. Gloria, I mean, what do you think is going on in terms of the kids coming out there?


COOPER: It does seem to be kind of playing out certainly differently as Jeff said in the Clinton campaign.

BORGER: Well you called it an intervention earlier and we have some great new reporting from our Chief Political Correspondent, Dana Bash. And it sounds more like a reconnaissance mission.

To me in many ways, you know, Dana is reporting that, indeed, something did go wrong with Trump's plane last night. Maybe it popped a tire and the kids decided that they had to then fly to Indiana to meet with Trump before he left for California for a fundraising tour.

[21:10:14] COOPER: They thought they were going to be able to meet with him in New York?

BORGER: In New York, right.

COOPER: But because the plane couldn't (inaudible).

BORGER: So they all decided to get in a plane, fly to Indiana and meet with him. The question is why.

COOPER: Right, that's supposed going to happen.

BORGER: Right. The question is why. Well, some of them like Pence and you could sort of have this feeling of Trump trying to get to Pence, although Pence is not in his gutt and some of them like Newt, right? So that's why Newt Gingrich gets on an airplane.

COOPER: But Sean Hannity probably ...

BORGER: Sean Hannity -- let's not even go there.

COOPER: ... got.

BORGER: OK. Sean Hannity gets him on a plane or his plane and flies out to have a long two and a half hour meeting with Donald Trump and suddenly we see Jeff Sessions now going out there. He's talking to Chris Christie.

So you see the sense of his children are running in and they're not kids. They're his adult advisors. His closest advisors in this campaign to kind of say, OK, don't make a decision yet until we all can powwow together.

And I think it gives us a real view of how Donald Trump would govern. These are his closest advisors.

COOPER: Patrick, I mean, from your reporting, how is this differ than past elections on the past? PATRICK HEALY, POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: No. It's incredible. I mean, usually of this the skull duggery. I remember staking out John Kerry outside of Pittsburgh at his wife's estate, you know, watching the long driveway to see who would come up. There are people getting in the back of vans usually.

I mean now they're all just sort of like tripping over each other to get to Indiana, the center of the political universe to make impressions. One of the things that I reported out was from a couple Trump advisors was that, it wasn't just sort of the kids lobbying Trump. It's that Trump who knows that it sounds like Jared and Ivanka, particularly ...


HEALY: ... are leaning toward Trump -- leaning toward Newt. They wanted -- Trump wanted them to have some face time with Pence too and some more time because it does sound like, like Gloria was saying we're sort of seeing how Trump would lead. He wants sort of a buy-in. I think of a lot of the people ...

COOPER: Interesting.

HEALY: ... who historically have reinforced his own impulses, shall we say and sort of decision making.

BORGER: He usually trusts though.

HEALY: Absolutely. No.

BORGER: People that he trusts that have his best interests ...

COOPER: And Jeffrey, I mean that circle is pretty small.


COOPER: I mean, it's -- the Trump organization itself seems like a pretty tight, small organization and people have been with him for a long time.

LORD: I think it is. I mean, candidly, like a lot of these people who get to this point in their lives, they have a handful of people around him who with them in the beginning and who better in his case than his kids. I talked to him about his kids a couple of years ago.

I thought, you know, in terms of how incredible they had become and he made it clear that if he ran for president that they would have a role in running his business, all this sort of thing. They're clearly very key advisors. It reminds me, no kidding, I know my Democratic friends will have pain here, but it reminds me of the Kennedy family.


LORD: And the relationships between JFK and Brother Bobby and Brother Teddy and dad and all of this sort of thing. RICHARD SOCARIDES, FORMER CLINTON SENIOR WHITE HOUSE ADVISOR: Of course, Robert Kennedy had a very distinguished political and legal career. But when he became attorney general, I mean, this kids, I mean, these are the kids, I mean ...


SOCARIDES: Jeffrey, just listen to what you're saying. Are these kids going to be the people going to run the country? I mean, are you going to put them in the cabinet? As they going to -- call on them when he decides how to get Mexico to build the wall? I mean, is he going to send somebody down ...


SOCARIDES: ... one of these kids down to Mexico to negotiate the wall?

LORD: Richard ...

SOCARIDES: I mean, come on, Jeff, that's ridiculous.

LORD: When I was throwing up in Massachusetts in 1962, JFK's 30-year- old brother Ted was zero political experience was made the United States senator.

SOCARIDES: He was a great driver.

COOPER: John, do you think it's going to boil down to -- I mean, do you think it boils down to Trump just going to go with his gutt?

JOHN JAY LAVALLE, TRUMP SURROGATE: He's going to go with his gutt, but his children are his top advisors.

COOPER: Right.

LAVALLE: He trusts them implicitly and, you know, that's a good thing. Donald Trump is a family man. We're really seeing the true Donald Trump and how he makes decisions and he's a very thoughtful individual. I think he's getting a kick out of the fact that everyone is hanging on every word he has to say. That is Hillary's totally in secret mode just like she hides from the press of whether it's her e- mail scandal and everything else, the foundation. Donald Trump is out front. He is in America's face saying, this is me. This is Donald Trump. He has a family.


COOPER: Actually Maria let me ask you. John mentioned her hiding from the press. You know, he is and Hillary Clinton went after Donald Trump today and a tweet saying that he, you know, he makes enemies of the press and, you know, that's the way he's going to be as president. Is she really the person which may, you know, let's define, she clearly doesn't like any people in the press.

CARDONA: She doesn't and talked to press the way that he says.

COOPER: Literally corrals them, you know, with a rope -- in a rope line.


CARDONA: That was not her.

COOPER: But she has not had a press conference in -- I don't know how many hundreds of days, I mean.

[21:15:00] CARDONA: No, but she has made herself available to many reporters.

COOPER: Yes. More recently, listen, the last couple of months though.

CARDONA: But she has also had have press availabilities in these places where she's speaking. I do think that you're going to see her out more after the convention and I frankly think that this is something of course the press focuses on, but she has been -- in her speeches she has talked about what she's going to do. The speech that she gave today I think was iconic because you saw -- she hit ...

COOPER: She is tightly controlled though. I mean ...


HEALY: Go with her gutt. Let's aside. If they're going to go with her gutt and her instincts, Hillary Clinton would pick Tim Cane ...

CARDONA: Tim Cane.

HEALY: ... and Tom Paris. Probably Tim Cane.

CARDONA: And he probably would will be one of them too.

HEALY: If Trump went with this gutt?


HEALY: Let's be derived. I mean he probably would pick Newt Gingrinch, you know? I mean ...

CARDONA: Or Chris Christie.

HEALY: Or Chris Christie maybe.

CARDONA: You're right.

HEALY: Although, I think he sees Christie's ...


HEALY: ... unfavorables as sort of too great, but this a guy who winning, not just because of the depth, but he doubles down in Iowa, he doesn't just sort of criticize talks. You know, he cancels the debate and holds his own bet.


HEALY: He's sort of goes all in.

CARDONA: But here's ...

HEALY: So I think if you see him moderating with the Mike Pence.

CARDONA: There's no question about that. But here's the problem with that.

COOPER: We going to go, please.

CARDONA: That works for his Republican supporters and it works to win him the nomination. It does nothing to give people confidence that he is temperamentally fit to become (inaudible).

COOPER: And John?

LAVALLE: He is going to pick the person who he believes can help him govern. This is the difference of the candidates. She's looking at an electoral map. He's looking to put America back on track.

COOPER: But she says she's looking for a person who can step in and govern the presidency.

CARDONA: That's right.


COOPER: All right, coming up next, how an aggressive prosecutor sending a young man's father to prison could shape down from running mate decision. The prosecutor is saying Chris Christie, the young man's name Trump son-in-law Jared Kushner.

Later, new development in Minnesota police shooting that help touch off the base of protest that ended so horribly in Dallas.


COOPER: The breaking news tonight, Donald Trump will name his running mate on Friday. We learned here in New York. He's says he's no longer looking for an attack dog. So, is that a clue he's following some of his kids lead in choosing Mike Pence over Chris Christie. It's impossible to say.

[21:20:05] Well can be said whoever is that son-in-law and Governor Christie go way back and not to know warm and fuzzy kind of way. Our "360's" Randi Kaye explains.


RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Charles Kushner built a billion dollar real state empire. New Jersey based Kushner Company. But in 2004, he became the focus of a federal investigation charged in a bizarre attempt to silence a federal witness. It all start from an accusation that Kushner had been making campaign contributions using names of his employees so he could skirt the federal contribution limit.

What makes this so interesting is that the man prosecuting Kushner was then U.S. attorney for New Jersey, Chris Christie.

CHRISTIE: That investigation has surrounded potential charges of federal criminal tax violations and violations of the federal campaign contribution laws.

KAYE: But there is of course a difference in almost Shakespearean dynamic with Chris Christie and the Kushner family now. He is on the short list to be VP and he is Charles Kushner son Jared who is also married to Ivanka Trump.

Charles Kushner a Democrat often donated to Democratic candidates. And in 2002, his brother and his accountant filed lawsuits against Kushner alleging financial irregularities, accusing Kushner of evading federal limits on campaign contributions.

Kushner struck a deal agreeing to pay more than $500,000 and fines to the federal election commission. He admitted using names of employees for campaign contributions. Kushner also said he defrauded the IRS by claiming charitable contribution as business expenses.

In the course of that investigation Chris Christie's team discovered something else that Charles Kushner had attempted to black mail a federal witness using prostitute as bait.

CHRISTIE: When people under investigation decide to take the law into their own hands, to obstruct justice, to attempt to impede the rule of law it is our obligation to act swiftly and surely to end the obstruction.

KAYE: Christie charged Kushner with conspiring to obstruct the grand jury investigation. Turns out Kushner hired a prostitute to have sex with his brother-in-law since he was cooperating with investigators looking in to the campaign contribution.

Kushner had the sexual encounter videotaped and sent that tape to the man's wife, Kushner sister.

CHRISTIE: He under took this activity in order to gain leverage over the cooperating witnesses.

KAYE: Kushner pleaded guilty and was sentenced to two years in prison. He served one year behind bars before being sent to a halfway house. He was released in 2006. Years ago his son Jared, Ivanka Trump's husband since 2009, told New York magazine about his dad. His siblings stole every piece of paper from his office and they took it to the government. All he did was put the tape together and send it.

A sex tape at the center of a case that's likely not to going to go away if Chris Christie, the one-time prosecutor becomes his running mate.


COOPER: I mean, it's such a bizarre story. Has Charles Kushner ever spoken about what he did during his time in prison?

KAYE: He did actually, Anderson. He spoke to, the Real Deal, which is this New York Real Estate publication. And he basically said that he learned a lot about himself in prison. He took advantage of his time there. He read the Wall Street journal from cover to cover everyday. He also learned how to adapt. He learned to sleep in a bunk bed and as you know he kept kosher before prison. That food wasn't available to him so he lived on peanut butter and sardines.

But the key thing is here the reporter who interviewed him for the Real Deal asked him, but what your brother and sister, you know, where is that stand now? And they were of course very key in this case against him. And he said, well, God and my parents in heaven have for given me and will forgive me for what I did which he did admit was wrong. But he said that God and his parents will never forgive his brother and sister, and let me quote him here saying, "because they were cheerleaders for the government in putting their brother in jail because of jealousy, hatred and spite."

So, pretty strong words in Charles Kushner.

COOPER: Fascinating. Randi, thanks very much.

As we have says, some very late word, vice presidential news Donald Trump just now tweeting he'll make the announcement 11:00 a.m. Eastern time on Friday. That's (inaudible) we've just heard.

Up next, breaking news on a manhunt for a serial killer now link to seven deaths. A powerful message also from Alton Sterling's son in the wake of police shootings like the one that killed his dad.


[21:28:27] COOPER: For other breaking news, tonight, the manhunt underway in Phoenix, Arizona, for a serial killer. They've released a sketch of the suspect. Now, accused of eight attacks, double the number first thought and the death toll stands at seven. I want to get more now details from our Brian Todd.

So, we talk to the police, you know, in last hour, is there any sense if police are getting closer to apprehending who ever doing this?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, we get a sense that they are not closer to apprehending this man. If they have a name of the suspect, they're not releasing it. They're not clear on what the man's race is.

Some witnesses say that he's white, other have said that he is a Hispanic, they are not clear on whether he's got an accomplice. Some witnesses have placed another person with him in the car as he's approached these scenes and they have no motive. This man tonight, Anderson, appears to be a ghost and they don't seem to be any closer to catching him. COOPER: The FBI and the U.S. marshals are also joining the manhunt, right?

TODD: That's right the FBI and U.S. marshals are now in this thing, they've offered a $30,000 reward for information leading to this killer's capture. We were told by law enforcement experts who've been with the FBI and the U.S. marshals that you can expect a lot of help in this case. But again, you know, one thing to think about tonight, Anderson this man has not struck for about a month his last shootings and last killing was June 12th.

So a question that has to be asked, is he watching the media coverage? Is he laying low? Is he calculating his next move? If so it seems that this might be -- and even more difficult search in the weeks ahead.

COOPER: All right. Brian Todd, Brian, thanks for the update.

We've been following a protest down the streets of Boston tonight, the pictures are from a few moments ago, began at police headquarters. It's the latest in a string of demonstrations before, during and after the tragedy in Dallas.

[21:30:05] Demonstrations in the wake of a pair police shootings and we're hearing tonight from the young son of the man killed by police and one of those shootings in Baton Rouge.

Now, you may remember we first saw Cameron Sterling last week breaking down in tears, hours after his father was fatally shot at point-blank range while being restrained by two officers. This morning, the 15- year-old talked about that moment and offered a message to protesters.

Stephanie Elam tonight reports.


STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Cameron Sterling explained to CBS his emotions the day his mother faced the cameras.

CAMERON STERLING, ALTON STERLING'S SON: It's like somebody else's hand touched me, like I had another hand laying on top of my hand. And when I looked over, there was nobody else touching me. Nobody else was touching me. And it was like at that moment, I knew, my daddy here, he right on side us. We're standing here as a family together once again.

ELAM: His father, Alton Sterling, was killed by Baton Rouge police on July 5th. Video of the confrontation immediately went viral. Just a week later, Cameron is speaking out about his dad.

STERLING: I truly feel that my father was a good man and he will always be a good man.

ELAM: And about the protests across the country and response to his father's death and that of Philando Castile in Minnesota, both at the hands of police. STERLING: I truly just want everyone to protest the right way, protesting in peace, not in violence. Not beating the police, not police beating the people. That makes no sense. They make things worse. You have to make things better by making peace.

ELAM: Cameron also extended his message of peace to law enforcement, especially, to the five officers gunned down by a man whose heinous action was partially in response to Sterling and Castile's deaths.

STERLING: Police in general. Our police aren't bad. They all aren't bad. There are some that are bad, but all aren't bad. How I feel? I feel all police have shouldn't be punished for other police's crimes. The police in Dallas, Texas, they didn't deserve that because we didn't -- nobody knew if they had kids to go home to. Those kids need their parents.

ELAM: Cameron and his mother will head to Washington, D.C. on Thursday for President Obama's town hall on race. We are told that Cameron is expected to ask the President a question.

Stephanie Elam, CNN.


COOPER: Well, just ahead, surprising findings in a new study on police shootings in race.

And at the top of the hour, CNN's town hall and tensions between police and minority groups. Don Lemon hosting "Black, White and Blue America 2016".


[21:36:47] COOPER: At yesterday's memorial service in Dallas for the five murdered police officers, President Obama said that Americans are not are not as divided racially as we seem. But at just release New York Times/CBS News poll tells a different story. It found that 69 percent of Americans say race relations are generally bad. That's a record high in the Obama presidency.

A level of racial discontent is highest after the riots following the equital of the officers charge in the beating Rodney King. And the poll we should know was conducted after the Dallas officers were killed.

There's also a new study about police shootings by a Harvard economist that has a lot of people talking. We have more on that starting from "360's" Randi Kaye.


KAYE: It's an all too familiar scene. A black man killed at the hands of police. Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, shot and killed after an altercation with police. Walter Scott in South Carolina, stopped for a broken taillight, then shot eight times in the back while fleeing police. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is that? That hit?

KAYE: Samuel Duebos in Cincinnati, shot and killed after being stopped for driving without a front license plate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come and take your seat belt.

KAYE: But it turns out at least according to a new Harvard study that scenes like these are not the norm. The study looked at more than 1,000 shootings in 10 major police departments in Texas, Florida and California. Plus stopping press policing (inaudible) in New York City.

When it comes to more extreme force, office involved shootings, the study found no racial difference at all. In fact officers who were more likely to fire their weapons without having first been attacked, if the suspects were white, weakening the argument for racial bias in the use of lethal force.

19 year old Zachary Hammond who was white was shot to death by police in South Carolina as he drove away from a drug sting. John Deere, who was also white, was gunned down by police standing in the doorway of his Virginia home.

In Houston the study found that in cases where lethal force might be justified, officers were about 24percent less likely to shoot a black suspect. Justified or not, we've seen cases of non-lethal force around the country. Sandra Bland was nearly yanked out of her car for failing to signal but never shot.

SANDRA BLAND, VICTIM: Don't touch me!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car!

BLAND: Don't touch me, I'm not under arrest (inaudible).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are under arrest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground! I told you to stay.

KAYE: Another case of non-lethal force, this 14-year-old girl forced to the ground in Texas after police broke up a pool party.


KAYE: The officer kneeling on her back later resigned. In New York City where researchers looked at stop and frisk they found African- Americans stopped by police were 24 percent more likely to have a gun pointed at them and 18 percent more likely to be pushed to the ground. Even when black suspects were compliant they were still 17 percent more likely to be pushed into a wall.

While the study's author says more data is needed, critics point out the sample size is only about 4 percent of the population. Also, that researchers relied on police reports only from departments willing to share them. [21:40:08] And finally, that non-lethal force is far more common than lethal force. And that is where the study did find racial differences.

Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.


COOPER: Well the study's findings surprised a lot of people, this sparks a lot of controversy, there were an odds with a database. The police shootings maintain by the "Washington Post" would show as the last year African-Americans were fatally shot by police at three times the rates for whites.

Joining us now, is CNN political commentator and New York Times Op-Ed columnist, Charles Blow. I saw your tweet about this the other day. You're skeptical about the idea that there's not bias in terms of shootings.

CHARLES BLOW, NEW YORK TIMES OP-ED COLUMNIST: Well, I mean, first of all I love all data. I started my career as data guy, but it's important to understand what these statistics show and what they don't show and that researchers are very up front about that. First of all, they are very clear this is not a national sample.

COOPER: Right. It's hard to actually get this data.

BLOW: Right. So the post has been trying to do a real -- a national sample but they've been kind of -- I think also going through kind of media reports. This study is isolated to -- mostly to 10 municipalities, right? So the -- that three in the ...

COOPER: Houston.

BLOW: ... Texas and then like six or seven in Florida and then in L.A. That's an interesting sample but you have to understand that's what's its showing you.

COOPER: Right.

BLOW: It's not showing you the national picture and it's also -- what's really important to understand is that it is also not really showing you the areas of the country where we have the biggest flash points about police use of force.

Almost all of those places that they studied are southern. We haven't had this issue as much in the south, right? So we have Alton now in Baton Rouge but before that the only place but of course you could really count to and let's say the Sandra Bland which is a separate issue because it wasn't at police shooting. She died in custody.

So, and that's one thing, another thing that needs to be factored into and whether or not this has any impact on the data is that many if not most of those police departments in those municipalities has minority police chiefs. That has an impact, I believe, on how police departments operate. They make a big case study out of Houston. Houston has a black police chief. I think that speaks to kind of how people behave. And, I think if you wanted to test it you would then move and say take a sample sizes outside of the south and where the police chiefs or majority of them were not ...

COOPER: But I mean, just -- by every other metric laying hands on a person, handcuffing a person, pushing them against the wall, there is a big disparity for African-Americans are treated in this places where the study was done.

BLOW: There is that. In addition to that even and when they in this kind of limited areas where they thought forgot their data. They were quick to say, they are not making adjustment as to whether or not any of the shootings that have happened.

The data did not have racial bias involving them and they were explicit about that. And I think that's important. In addition to that, all of that highest profile cases there has not been a single case in which a police officer has been convicted of crime. And I think that has actually inflamed a lot of the kind of protests around this. And it's important -- that is important because -- the process were not simply about the shootings.

I think the people got what they considered to be justice after the shootings happened that, it would kind of quell in a bit. The idea that for 2 1/2 years, every time that we've been presented with a new video, either they're not charged at all, they go home to their families or if they are charged, they get off. I think that adds a lot of fuel to the fire.

COOPER: I want to ask you about this I think report out of The New York Times, poll out of The New York Times saying 69 percent of Americans say race relations are generally bad. Racial discontenting the highest since Obama became president. Same level as during the L.A. riot. How do you reconcile those?

BLOW: Well, I mean, I think whenever there is racial conflict people have that reaction, so I think that after the racial riots after Rodney King, there was racial conflict. People have the reaction. People feel that.

Discomfort to me is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes you have to be made uncomfortable in order to move forward. I think there is a danger and people getting too comfortable with the notion that just because people are not making noise that they are happy.

COOPER: Interesting. Charles Blow is good to have you on. I wish I had more of this.

Up next, a different account of what happened during and after the shooting death of Philando Castile during the traffic stop at Minnesota. There are new details coming from a police chief. I spoke with him. That's coming up.