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CNN LIVE EVENT/SPECIAL
Black, White and Blue: America 2016 - Hour Two. Aired 11p-12a
Aired July 13, 2016 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN MODERATOR: Welcome back, everyone, to our live CNN town hall event. It's "Black, White, & Blue: America 2016". I'm Don Lemon.
Tonight in the studio, we have brought together police, we have brought together community members, mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, black, white, and, of course, blue. Everybody here to talk honestly about police, civilians, and civilians alike in the line of fire.
I want to start off with -- I said before the break that we're going to talk about Black Lives Matter. So, right here with me now is Darnell Moore. He's a senior editor at "Mic", an organizer of Black Lives Matter.
What's -- first of all, welcome. What's your question?
DARNELL MOORE, ORGANIZER OF BLACK LIVES MATTER: Thank you for having the conversation.
So, Rudy Giuliani recently made the assertion that Black Lives Matter movement, a movement that is grounded on notions of respect, dignity, justice, and sanctity of life, sanctity of black life, he noted that this was inherently racist. I'm interested on your thoughts in that.
LEMON: Garry McCarthy, you. What do you think of Black Lives Matter? Do you agree with the former mayor of New York City, Rudy Giuliani?
GARRY MCCARTHY, FORMER SUPERINTENDENT, CHICAGO POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, I can tell you this -- I think if there was a movement called "white lives matter," it would be considered racist. So, I think that all lives matter.
I spent 35 years -- as a matter of fact, today is my 35th anniversary as a police officer, starting here in New York City. And for 35 years, I've been trying to reduce crime and stop murders, and it didn't matter if they were black, white, green, or purple.
So, I'm a believer that we've got to get by the differences, we've got to have an honest conversation, which I hope this is going to open up to be. And at the end of the day, we have to have exposure to each other, and we have to sit down and really rip at this thing and get after it. LEMON: Just applause, people who believe that Black Lives Matter is
racist and offensive. If you believe there is a white lives matter, would it be considered racist? Applause. Do you think it would be considered racist?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no reason -- they don't need a white lives matter, because it's already, it's already understood that white lives matter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excuse me, hold on, hold on one second.
I'm going to use a simple analogy. If you and I went to the store, both ordered hamburgers and they gave you yours and I didn't get mine. Is it discrimination? Is it racist because I say, where is my burger? Then you say all burgers matter, I'm glad you have yours, but what about mine?
LEMON: Go ahead, Garry.
MCCARTHY: I'm sorry, Don, but the data you showed up the police shot more white people this year than they have black folks.
Now, by the way, I'm not dismissing the issue in no way, shape, or form am I doing it. I'm merely presenting an alternative thought.
LEMON: Listen, hang on, everybody. He thinks that you are dismissing his issue by saying that. Are you listening? Do you hear him?
MCCARTHY: Absolutely I'm listening. Absolutely I'm listening.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to comment on what the former mayor said though about Black Lives Matter.
LEMON: Hold on. Hang on, hang on.
RORY LANCMAN, NYC COUNCILMAN: Sure, I'm Rory Lancman, New York City counselor. I chair the committee of courts and legal services. Of course, all lives matter.
But as a white guy, I've never felt that my life didn't matter. I've never been pulled over before driving while white. I've never been subject to a stop and frisk, and I don't understand why it's so hard for white people to not appreciate the fact that people of color have a different experience with law enforcement in this country.
And so when folks say, that Black Lives Matter, they're not saying that white lives don't, what they're saying is they want their lives to matter as much as mine does.
LEMON: Yes. So, listen --
LEMON: -- I want to play this. Cedric, I'm coming to you, but before I come to you, I want to play this. This was the current speaker of the House last night in this very studio when he was asked about Black Lives Matter and questioner I thought put it very succinctly to him. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: You're saying Black Lives Matter because people, people feel like they're being discriminated against and they're not safe because of the color of their skin. So, that's profound. And because people believe that we have to listen to that and we have to hear about it, we have to understand it. And then, instead of just talking, let's go try solving it.
HEATHER TARRANT, REPUBLICAN VOTER: Well, we appreciate you listening. So when you hear Black Lives Matter, it' a reminder. Just keep listening to the message.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Originally, he said he thought it was divisive, and he didn't think that that term should be used. Cedric, what do you say?
CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, let me start by saying this, this construct in this country is wrong, period. That's part of the problem. Historically, it has a context to it, but like you heard Charles said earlier, when you think about it in the present, there are just so many things wrong.
So, Rudy Giuliani was irresponsible to state that Black Lives Matter is a terrorist group. Those are young, American men and women who had for their reason in their space, in their time, had a reason to respond to what they saw was a social injustice --
LEMON: He said it's racist.
ALEXANDER: -- that goes back -- no, they're not racist. That goes back to Trayvon Martin, to Brown, and up to this day.
And what has happened, if you look back over this country, there have been other groups that as a result of social questions, particularly around communities of color, have developed a number of different groups that have come along, i.e., Black Panther Party, whether you like them or not. I mean, a host of other groups. SNCC, SCLC, you name them.
But we still live in a country that is divided by race, and we don't want to acknowledge it. But here's what we do have to acknowledge, is that there's so many things that are so convoluted, so complicated, and now we're at this place in American history that involves policing in community, which has been bumping heads for years, but we've seen great progress, though, Don.
But to Garry's point -- and I understand what Garry's saying as a police chief. I understand what he's saying when you're asking me to come into some of the most challenged communities in America, whether it's in New York City or DeKalb County, Georgia, you ask me to come in to those communities, get the crime out, we go in, and there's nothing wrong with stop and frisk.
The problem is, is exactly what Charles was saying. It is that Terry stop is not wrong, it's the utilization of it and how we do it, because if you don't do it professionally, you don't do it in the way in which the Supreme Court sanctioned that it, then there's a problem, but many times, oftentimes, in many communities that are challenged by crime, we have police officers, black and white, by the way, that will go into these communities and take it upon themselves to enforce laws that have gone way out of bound. And then we're stuck with it and we're stuck in this place we are.
LEMON: I want to get back to it, thank you very much.
I want to get back to our audience questions now. This is Karcena Dozier. She's a director of community relations in New York City, Department of Homeless Services.
What's your question, Karcena?
KARCENA DOZIER, NYC DEPARTMENT OF HOMELESS SERVICES: Great, thank you.
So I want to preface this question by saying that I'm asking it as a proud public servant of a very vulnerable population, as a loving sister and daughter of law enforcement officers, and also as a concerned citizen in this country who has witnessed up close and personal, members of my race being mistreated and humiliated via racial profiling.
And so my question for you all is, how can we say that the margins of police officers in this country are not racist or have an implicit bias against African-Americans when every African American in this country has either experienced racial profiling or know someone who has experienced racial profiling? So, how can we then say there's only a small segment of police officers that are engaging in this practice?
LEMON: OK. I want that -- Tom Jackson is here.
And Tom Jackson, first, let me introduce you, you may find him familiar. The former police chief of Ferguson, Missouri. He was there during the whole Michael Brown/Officer Darren Wilson. A federal Justice Department investigation found that your police department routinely stereotyped and discriminated against African American residents, not just your department.
According to CNN and Kaiser Family Foundation poll, one in five black Americans to her point felt they had been treated unfairly by police in just the last month. OK? One in 30 white Americans, one in 30 as opposed to one in five white Americans felt that they had been mistreated by police in the last month.
So, is this a few bad cops or is this a systemic problem?
TOM JACKSON, FORMER POLICE CHIEF, FERGUSON, MISSOURI: Well, first of all, I know what it's like to be called a racist because that's -- that's the narrative that came of me after 35-year career of proud law enforcement. But the fact is that I heard about the talk during the Ferguson thing, and it was the first time I'd heard that, and when it was brought to my attention during a town hall in Ferguson, I was saddened by that. I couldn't imagine they have to talk to my kids and tell them that.
But also, I could tell you that police officers do not go out and routinely say, I want to have a confrontation with anybody. They go out to do a job to serve and protect, and the ones that I have worked with for the past 35, 36 years are proud of what they do, they believe in what they do, and they do it for the right reasons. And I think --
LEMON: But is this something that's -- and I don't think people -- consciously, I think people, you know, agree with you consciously that police officers are doing this, but is this something that's engrained in society? Is it engrained in the training? It is -- those perceptions, do they come from the police academy or just being on the force?
JACKSON: I don't think it's engrained at all. What I think we have -- it was brought to the floor a little while ago and it's what Chief Brown from Dallas said, is that too much is being put on police officers. Too much of society's ails.
One of the big problems we have -- we had in Ferguson is concentrated poverty, which I think is at the root of the problem. We're taking poor people and concentrating them in small areas with HUD programs that are well-intentioned, and well-meaning, but are unregulated.
So we have -- the responsibility goes to the police. So we have elevated crime, broken down families, lack of education, lack of jobs, lack of hope.
LEMON: So you're saying police, it's more than just keeping the peace now. As the chief in Dallas said, it's a number of -- too many -- police have to wear too many hats and it's not fair.
LEMON: But the issue though, the issue though is one of abuse and brutality and excessive force. And that's where the specifics are. I know that police have a lot of hats, but part of that is just being a police officer.
JACKSON: Right, right. Well, no officer should use excessive force and when they do, they should be held accountable. Just like everybody else. But I think we need to be unequivocal in our support of law enforcement as a profession.
You know, we don't equivocate when we say we support our military, except the bad ones. The bad ones should be held to account, but we need to be unequivocal in saying that we, as a country, support law enforcement, and we need to redefine the role of law enforcement so that it's more effective, and so there is less confrontation between the police and the community.
LEMON: I'm so glad that you're here, and you recently -- hang on, recently you just -- for a long time after Michael Brown, you didn't say anything. You sort of, I don't know if you went into hiding.
JACKSON: I did.
LEMON: But this is one of your first times actually speaking, you thought this was important enough to be here. Why are you here?
JACKSON: The last week, I saw those two officer-involved shootings, and then I saw the vitriol and the hatred, and everything come out from the whole community. And it brought me back to Ferguson when I saw, you know, these lines of hundreds and sometimes thousands of people just shouting death threats at the officers that were out there on the line every single night for months. And it just brought it all back.
LEMON: I want to play something for the audience. And this is from Tim Scott, who is a Republican. It happened today, it was a very moving moment on the floor in Washington. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TIM SCOTT (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I want to go to a time in my life when I was an elected official, and share just a couple of stories as an elected official. But please remember that in the course of one year, I've been stopped seven times by law enforcement officers. Not four, not five, not six, but seven times, in one year as an elected official.
Was I speeding sometimes? Sure. But the vast majority of the time I was pulled over for nothing more than driving a new car in the wrong neighborhood, or some other reason just as trivial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I want to go to Mark O'Mara. Something you may not know about Mark O'Mara, right, Mark O'Mara -- I mean, you know that he defended George Zimmerman, but you spent most of your career defending young black men or just black people in communities from excessive force, from issues like this, and that one thing George Zimmerman that you're known for.
Is there any doubt in your mind, Mark O'Mara, that African-Americans are treated differently than white people in the justice system?
MARK O'MARA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Not at all. No. And that's the easy answer. But that's the obvious one. And take issue with law enforcement, I love cops, I defend cops, there is no question that when you look at the criminal justice system and use any filter you want, that it is biased against the African-American community.
That's not the problem. The failure to acknowledge it is the problem, because...
O'MARA: Because -- look, because now we're at a point in 2016 when we are looking at cops, some parts of this community are looking at cops as the enemy. Horribly dangerous for the rest of us. I don't mean for the whites, I mean for the rest of society if we can't trust our cops.
They work for us. We employ them. If I gave one of my associates triple, quadruple the amount of work to do, they could not do their job. That's what was being said here so far today, that we're making cops do so much more than they can do.
And then we pay them poorly, we train them fairly, but then we never give them additional training. We put them in on of the most stressful jobs that we could and then hold we them to a unbelievably high standard.
I'm a big guy in favor of body cameras, but let me tell you something, when we see a lot more body cameras, we're going to see more stuff we don't like and we've got to understand that being a cop is a dirty job sometimes.
It doesn't allow you to be racist, does not allow you to racially profile, but we have to give them their due. We have got to pay them better. We have got to train them better. We've got to make sure we don't have cowboys as cops. So our cadets have to be good.
Then and only then are we really going to get to it. Because we can talk all we want here, but if we actually get to the point that we have to acknowledge the subtle biases and that the only way we're going to do it is to actually put it out into the front and deal with it, that's where we're going to start making progress.
LEMON: More questions from our audience when we come -- more questions from our audience when we come right back. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARMELO ANTHONY, BASKETBALL PLAYER: In this moment of celebration, we asked to start the show tonight this way. The four of saw with our fellow athletes with the country watching because we cannot ignore the realities of the current state of America. The events of the past week have put the spotlight on the injustice, distrust, and anger that plague so many of us.
The system is broken. The problems are not new, the violence is not new, and racial divide definitely is not new, but the urgency to create change is at an all-time high.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That was Carmelo Anthony along with Chris Paul, Dwyane Wade, and LeBron James of the "Espys" tonight. They started the "Espys" off with that.
Back now live with our town hall "Black, White, and Blue America 2016."
You know, for many of us, this isn't just a story, it is personal. It's our lives as a matter of fact. Travis Saddiewhite is a member of the CNN family, he's a news editor at the CNN Political Desk, and he is here with a question.
TRAVIS SADDIEWHITE, NEWS EDITOR, CNN POLITICAL DESK: Thank you, Don, thanks for having me.
My question is, I am a young professional black male, I do everything right, and I have a bright future ahead of me, but I am terrified when I am stopped by the police. What can I do, even though I am complying with the officer, what can I do to ensure my safety and that I will go home to my loved ones at the end of that traffic stop?
MCCARTHY: Well, first of all, I'm terrified when I get stopped by the police, and I'm not joking. I've had my own incidents with police officers. So, the first thing that you said is correct. My advice is simply, my advice is also to be respectful, hopefully the officer is doing the same thing. Keep your hands where you can see them, and have the conversation that way. That's my recommendation.
Because once an officer approaches a traffic stop, once the tactical fear of something bad happening -- because it does happen to officers all the time, once that fear comes down, once the conversation can start, everybody comes down and you can have a good conversation.
LEMON: Do you believe the Monifa?
MONIFA BADELE, SENIOR CAMPAIGN DIRECTOR, MOMSRISING.ORG: No. We absolutely have to -- you have to join the movement to change policing in this country, that's how you're going to be safe. Telling you, and instructing people day in and day out that there's something in their behavior that brings on the abuse is paramount to telling women that there's something that we do that causes street harassment and rape. We have to change the culture.
BADELE: But I want you to be safe, whether or not you're a professional. I want you to be safe if you're a homeless brother. I want you to be safe if English is your second language. I want you to be safe if you have mental health issues. All of them should be safe.
BADELE: Every aspect of you should be safe. Not everyone should have to pretend like a certain type of person. So, join the movement.
LEMON: Mark you don't agree with that.
O'MARA: No, I don't agree because it's a great grand principle to throw out there to say we should all get along and we should all kumbaya. And we should. We should not have a racial divide in this country anymore, but we do.
So, I say if you're him, you do put your hands on the wheel. You do be careful, and maybe you do still have to be extra careful because you're black but the refusal to do that, the refusal to acknowledge that we still live within a racially divided country doesn't help avoid it because I think it's going to presuppose (ph) that it continue. Because if he sits back and says I'm going to join the movement, and I'm not going to do what would otherwise keep me safe, objectively we haven't really helped...
BADELE: ...What we're saying is you have to do both. You can be you, but I'm just pointing out that not everyone can be you. Not everyone's going to be able to present themselves as this professional...
NEILL FRANKLIN, RET. MARYLAND STATE POLICE MAJOR: Unfortunately, we have to teach our black sons and daughters, remember Sandra Bland. Today might be the anniversary of that. Unfortunately, we have to do both.
LEMON: It is the anniversary of her death.
FRANKLIN: My condolences to her family. You have to put your hands on the steering wheel, you have to be calm. You have to develop a dialogue to bring things down. Unfortunately, you have to do that when it should be the responsibility of the police officer, peace officer, to bring calm to every situation.
LEMON: OK, so there were people in this room -- you guys were saying that no, you should not have to do that. But, if this is about give and take...
BADELE: ... I'm not saying -- he shouldn't have to do that...
LEMON: Do you guys agree? Do you guys agree that you should do that? You should put your hands, or no you shouldn't have to do that. BLOW: Maybe you do have to do that. Can we just take a moment, as America, and register how profound and immoral it is that we should have to give a certain group in this country a toolbox to survive what should otherwise be an innocent interaction. Can we just take a moment and understand -- Mark you were just, you were kind of marching over this fact, yes you're going to have to do that, but stay safe.
The idea that black and brown parents should have to do this violence to their own children to say, this is the only thing that will keep you safe is that if you pack this tool box, and you take it with you everywhere you go. And this is not the way that everybody has to behave, it is only the way that you have to behave. And that it's not your fault, and that you have not done anything wrong, but it is because you are who you are, and they do not see you as the person that I love, but they see you as a person that they should fear.
LEMON: Charles, let me jump in here because over the past couple of days, I've had, I've said similar things. That he shouldn't have to do that. But white parents, white parents in the audience? There are white parents who have contacted me and say they do the same thing, they teach their kids to be respectful of police officers too, to put their hands on the wheel and to do whatever. A civil rights attorney, Frederick Lawrence is here. Do white parents do that as well?
QUESTION: Well, white parents do that as well, but I think it's a very different experience. I think my children, I was taught by my dad don't sass a cop. I assumed the likelihood of that interaction turning bad is zero. And that's, I think, a different experience.
LEMON: What was your question. You had a question?
QUESTION: My question, I'm thinking back to the beginning of this town hall which was such a compelling moment of seeking common ground, and I'm trying to think of ways in which we can pierce through some of this and seek some common ground. So, what I wanted to ask was what responsibility should leadership on all sides feel when there are extreme cases by a few -- and I'm not saying only the problems are of a few, but when cases of police brutality do happen, what is the responsibility of police unions and police departments to acknowledge that? And when a tragedy like Dallas happens what is the responsibility of social activists to take responsibility and to make statements, and is that a place we can begin to have some common ground on these problems?
ALEXANDER: And, to that point, and that's a great question because the first place is to acknowledge. I'm a police administrator, we have had our issues in our own county, but one thing we take responsibility for is that we let the public know here is what happened. Here is what we know to this point. And, we know there's going to be subsequent investigation, but I think oftentimes what happens is that certain events will happen, we won't acknowledge them, we won't talk about them, we won't share with the community what we know up to this point.
Now, I want to go back to Charles Blow's point for just a moment. And, he's absolutely right. As a police administrator I've been in this profession for 40 years, Don. Let me tell you something, no one, no population should have to do anything any different than any other population. Now, that being said, if we're going to teach people how to conduct themselves, if they're pulled over in a traffic stop, then we should teach it to every American in this country. Every one. No one should have to do anything special.
I don't train my men and women that way. I don't know anyone in the state of Georgia that trains their people that way because you have to treat people with the same respect you would like to be treated.
But, here's the thing, here's the thing. I had a very heated crowd of people last night in Dekalb county who wanted to come out and talk about the issues that were going on. Angry people, sad people, hurt people, and a woman asked a very important question.
She said, "I'm being told, I tell my tell my children to comply, and it appears that when they comply they still get hurt by the police. So, what do I tell them?"
I will tell you this, and I'll tell the rest of the country this, and those who are listening, continue to comply. there's no option to that. We still must comply to the authority, and if something goes awry, they're disrespectful, that is not -- that's not something you deal with on the street. You get that name, you get that badge number.
But the point of it in this, there's so much distrust right now in this country between police and community, and the starting point and the jumping off point from all of us, Don, is going to have to be is that we're going ot have to find a place because we can talk about this all night. We can talk about it tomorrow, next week, but until we begin to talk about how to we start to trust and legitimize each other, maybe for the first time ever. In some communities I think relationships are great, in others more challenge, but we can't continue down this road that we're on now.
LEMON: Thank you very much for your important question, but before you get to that...
BADELE: ... I just want to say that accountability is different from victim (ph) responsibility, and that's what's left out of the conversation. To acknowledge the abuse is one thing, but how are you making people whole? What justice is there for the people that have been abused? And I want to get to that part of the conversation because it's one thing to say, yes, you've been abused by me, or this system has been abused by my institution, but what's going to be the process to making people whole?
LEMON: But part of what, I think, the solution is a good one. And that suggested the other day, should this be taught in driver's ed, should it be something that you teach people when you're teaching people to drive, how you deal with the police officers so it's across the board, everyone is taught that? No, it doesn't make a difference at all, Neil?
FRANKLIN: Look, we've got two things here. We're talking about short term solutions, or at least we're trying to solve symptoms of a much larger problem. At the beginning of the discussion tonight, you asked a question, it was asked about the fear of black men in this country. This is something that's never been resolved or it's been perpetuated since slavery. And we have to deal with it.
yes, we have to go back and talk with that, talk about that. So, since slavery, until now, there's always been a tool, there's always been a method, there's always been a policy to vilify the black man. And it's manifesting itself now in what we see every day in policing because it's right in front of you.
LEMON: So, what's the solution?
FRANKLIN: Wait a minute, this is a societal problem how we view the black man. And I'm going to tell you something right now. Most of the black people also fear the young black man because subconsciously, this is what has been fed to us over the years.
Now, you want to sit there and acknowledge that you don't have some sort of fear before you catch yourself, before you catch yourself and realize that, whoa, wait a minute, I shouldn't be thinking this way, when you see a group of young black men standing on a corner, sagging and doing what they do, but the key is to understand and to recognize that we all have our individual bias -- and to recognize it and then to control it and not act upon it in a negative way.
LEMON: But here's the difference -- here's the difference that I got a text from a friend tonight, who happens to be black. And he says, "Don, yes, people are racist", and he said, "And people have biases and even blacks have biases against other blacks."
FRANKLIN: You better believe it.
LEMON: As you say, they fear other blacks.
But the difference is that we give them a chance. We give people a chance, even though we may fear them. We still give them more of a chance than a white person may give them.
MONIFA BANDELE, SENIOR CAMPAIGN DIRECTOR, MOMSRISING.ORG: And does the system back up that bias? It's one thing if I'm bias towards you, but I'm not allowed to be. We gave a moment of silence for Sandra Bland, but we haven't had a moment of justice for Sandra Bland.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
BANDELE: And so, that's (INAUDIBLE)
LEMON: Sharay Santora, we're speaking about young black men and fearing them, you're here with your 14-year-old son.
She's a hairstylist. You can see her beautiful hair. She's here with her young black son.
And you have a question about fear, right? About fearing young kids? SHARAY SANTORA, HAIRSTYLIST: You know, my question goes deeper than
fearing young black children. My son is 14 years old. He's 5'7". He has corn rows, he likes to sag his pants no matter how much I tell him to put a belt on and pull them up.
So, my question to you is, if I'm constantly teaching him to be responsible, to be accountable for his actions and you can ask anyone who speaks to him. He is extremely respectful to any and everyone. It's "yes, ma'am, no, ma'am," it's "yes, sir, no, sir", and I won't have anything less.
So, if I'm teaching him to do this, and he's "yes, ma'am, yes, ma'am, yes, ma'am," but in the back of my mind, I know that it's not going to matter. Every moment he's not with me, I fear for his life.
My question is, I keep telling my son what he should do, I keep hearing you tell me to tell my son what to do. My 14-year-old is sitting right there, so you tell him he needs to be more respectful. You tell him he needs to be more compliant to your rules and your laws. Because I've told him and obviously it doesn't matter because you're telling me I'm not telling him enough.
CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Here's what I would say, and every -- all of us in this room and people across this country understand exactly what you're saying, because young black men and women of color, young people, period, regardless who they are, have been told what you need to do and somehow it don't feel like it works.
But here's what I will say -- we in law enforcement have work to do. We got to change some things as well too. We got to train better. We got to recruit better, we got to provide culture, diversity, and sensitivity training.
But you know what, let's put culture and sensitivity training aside for a moment. I want to recruit you from the onset, you're already coming sensitized and culturally aware of differences. We need to recruit from there so that when your son or Garry's child or any of our sons and daughter come in contact with the police, there's a shared responsibility in that interaction. And all that interaction is not placed upon your 14-year-old son, but it's also placed upon that professional law enforcement officer.
There are a lot of things across this country that are being done at this very moment, 21st Century Task Force report, 59 recommendations that have been forwarded from the president out into this community have been implemented in a number of police departments across this country that will address exactly what you're talking about.
But there are many departments that are adopting it and there are those that are staying away from it. But here's what I will say, people like myself, my good friend Garry that I've known and I know where his heart is in all of this. People like Charles Blow and Mark, we are in this fight to try to make a difference. And we all are taking some responsibility, yes, in law enforcement, criminal justice -- we have a responsibility so that you don't have to feel fearful when your son goes out into the community or you're (INAUDIBLE)
LEMON: I want Garry to respond. This mother's here shaking, you know, and you, quite honestly, as a white police officer. What do you say to her that will help? Do you feel what she's saying?
GARRY MCCARTHY, FORMER SUPERINTENDENT, CHICAGO POLICE DEPARTMENT: I absolutely hear what she's saying. And there's not an answer to your question. I can't think of an answer.
The only thing that I could think about is what I explained to you is exactly what I explain to this young man about a car stop is exactly how I act during a car stop. And I think back to my Marine Corps drill instructor, dad, who raised me in a certain fashion just like you're talking about the way that you're raising your son.
And I don't know the answer to your question, but I want to support what's Cedric just said. And I kind of want to almost make an offer if I may. Everybody in this country now knows who David Brown is.
David is a friend of mine. David, I was the vice president of the major city chief's association. It's a 67 biggest jurisdictions in the country.
A lot of people in this room have been saying, you're not hearing this, you don't understand that, I don't -- I don't think that's the case. I'm certainly listening. I'm certainly hearing it. I've been hearing it.
And I can tell you that my former colleagues, in the major city chief's association and IACP, institution like PERF, NOBLE, there are institutions in law enforcement that should be sitting down with Black Lives Matter. And I'll try and facilitate that meeting if that's what needs happen because there has to be conversation --
There has to be conversation, there has to be exposure, and I think that you'll be shocked to hear the responses from some of the these police executives. David Brown is not the exception. David Brown is a great example of them.
LEMON: Yes, thank you.
LEMON: Thank you very much.
I've got to get a break. I've got to get a break in. We'll be right back.
LEMON: Welcome back, everyone, to our town hall.
You said you wanted to say something to that mother.
DIMITRI ROBERTS, FORMER CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER: Absolutely. And here's the deal, Don, as a police officer and as a leader --
LEMON: Who served under Garry McCarthy.
ROBERTS: -- who served under Garry McCarthy, but who also served my country, I put my life on the line for my country and I put my life on the line for my community. I will not sit here as a leader who took a oath and let this young lady behind me cry because she and her family and her children don't feel protected when I swore an oath to serve and protect her.
So I want to say, I'm sorry, as a leader.
LEMON: She's right there. She's right there.
ROBERTS: As a leader and as somebody who took that oath, I'm sorry that we have not fulfilled our civil duty and our responsibility to you and this community and your children. And I'm sorry, and I just want to take a moment and say to you, I'm sorry.
LEMON: Is that where the healing begins?
BISHOP T.D. JAKES, PASTOR: I think that's where it begins. I think it's so, so very, very important that we don't only hear what is being said, but we hear the cry of the heart. As a pastor, we conducted a funeral today for a police officer. We spent many more times conducting funerals for mothers like her, when I heard her cry, it brought tears to my eyes because I hear that we do 400 funerals a year. This needs to stop.
LEMON: You said something t| me in the break about, you said, you want me to talk more about economic opportunities.
JAKES: Yes, because what this gentleman said over here, I almost leaped out of my seat, because we have allowed these communities to develop of hopelessness and despair with no jobs and no opportunities. We have a criminal justice system that needs to be overhauled.
They get out of criminal justice system. They can't vote. They can't get a place to stay. They can't get a job. And then we start talking to them about more responsibility.
We have a lot of problems to fix beyond the police officers and while there are issues with the police officers, our country as a whole needs to focus on poverty, job opportunities, rehabbing our cities.
(APPLAUSE) We -- America can do better than it's doing right now. We need great leadership. We need hearts like what we just saw back there and we need a change of these cesspools of decadents and despair that we call communities today.
We need jobs. We need families. We need hope.
LEMON: Thank you, Bishop, and thank you for being so open. Thank you, I appreciate that.
Charles Blow, you talked about economic opportunity all the time.
CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Not, I mean -- not only have we allowed, I think the word "allowed" is very interesting because I don't think that history necessarily allows "allowed" to stand alone. America created it by design, what we call our American ghettos.
And that was through urban policies, that was everything from redlining, that was mortgage policies, banking policies, that was the way we built our infrastructure, whether or not we cut straight through those communities, whether or not we built highways that cut them off from the rest of the cities, whether or not rebuilt mass transportation that was easy for them to get into the centers of cities, that get to jobs and away from jobs.
We didn't simply allow neighborhoods to get bad, we created bad neighborhoods.
And as the president said in the memorial service, and now, we sit back and feign disbelief when those neighborhoods explode. America, all of America has his hands deep in this dirt.
LEMON: Thank you, Charles.
I have another officer here with me, Colonel K.L Williams. You're from Kinloch, Missouri, right?
COL. K.L. WILLIAMS, KINLOCH, MISSOURI POLICE CHIEF: Correct.
LEMON: You have taught officers for 30 years on how to avoid biased policing and how to avoid using deadly force. What's your question?
WILLIAMS: Correct. Well, first, let me just say a couple quick things because I've been sitting, I've been listening. And first of all, I'm just going to say, police work is a very noble profession. Number one, we're a profession out there who people risk their lives to save folks they don't even know. That's the first thing I want to say.
And second, we've got to really begin to look at the base issues. See, there are officers out there who are willing to step up. You know, they have when you talk about terrorism, they say, well, if you see something, say something. I say to my colleagues, if you see something, do something. Don't just stand there and watch. Don't just stand there and get involved.
But, see, what happens is, when the officer does get involved, guess what? He gets transferred. He gets demoted. He faces some repercussions from his colleagues and therefore that behavior does not change.
See, we can deal with this problem tonight, if we really wanted to step out there and do something --
LEMON: How so? How so?
WILLIAMS: -- because the officers out there on the street right now, as we're speaking, they're seeing something that's wrong. They're seeing something that they know should be changed and they should step in and do something and not turning their backs in. I don't know what I saw, I didn't see anything.
You've got to be responsible. We talk about accountability. Yes, I teach a class called, racially and culturally biased policing, and it focuses on accountability. But if the accountability stopped and is not supported by the higher ups, if it stops and this officer feels, well, I'll never move anywhere in the department if I speak up -- because you understand, there's a code.
When you graduate from that police academy, I guarantee that you are going to be indoctrinated into a philosophy that if you don't tow the line, you're going to have problems.
WILLIAMS: And that is the bottom line. Now, we can dance around it all you want and somebody spoke on some other issues.
If you think that racism and white supremacy is not involved in police departments, you better check yourself.
Because the KKK has been involved in law enforcement from where it just about started. So, you can look at the historical perspective, you can bring it back to today. But the bottom line is, we have an obligation.
I have had more guns pointed at my head as a young man before I became a police officer, I don't even know how I made it. And when you look up to a shotgun that's pointing at you, it changes you. I knew I could never change the condition from the outside, I had to go from the inside.
But let me get to my question --
I have traveled, I have spoken to police officers who have told me that they believe that black people are genetically predisposed to be criminals, genetically predisposed -- let that sink in for a minute -- and it is their obligation to control these people by whatever means are necessary.
LEMON: All right. I want to bring in now criminal defense attorney, how do you -- he's got a very good point. So, how do you weed that out and deal with that?
PAUL MARTIN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think what we have to do is we need better vetting of police officers when they come into the system. There's also a perception and it's real, that the police officers are an occupying force because very few of the police officers actually live in the communities in which they are to police.
So, we need better vetting. We need better recruitment and have police officers living in the neighborhoods in which they patrol. And we also need to have district attorneys and judges that do not rubber stamp the actions of police officers.
LEMON: Is he right though when he says, if you think that, you know, discrimination and racism is not involved in police departments, then you are out of your mind, you need to check yourself?
MARTIN: Racism is part of our society. So, why would it not spill into police departments?
Police officers believe that there's a culture of them against us. And the fact of the matter is because we care about black lives does not mean we're demonizing police officers. And once we come to that understanding, that we can have this conversation without saying that all white police officers are bad, then we can make some ground and by common ground which we can make some solutions.
LEMON: Garry, Garry, go ahead.
MCCARTHY: I'm just listening and fascinated. I would hire if I still had Chicago police.
FRANKLIN: Don, there comes a time when the car can no longer be repaired.
FRANKLIN: OK. We need a new car. OK?
Let's stop trying -- look, the 21st century policing thing by the president and wonderful people sat on that panel, but we need a new policing model, period.
This does not work. It never worked. It's time for us to do something new to rebuild from the ground up. Police departments should be governed, controlled by their
communities. We need -- we don't need a chief who runs the entire police department after being hired by the mayor. What we need is a board of citizens, yes, local politicians, business leaders, faith leaders, in charge of the philosophy of the police department, governing that police department. And we need to do it under -- I don't know if any of you heard of the nine basic principles of policing, the Peelian principles, we're not sending police officers and leaders over to Europe, over to the U.K. and Scotland to see why they don't kill so many people.
It's because they have a foundation of the nine basic policing principles. We've got to rebuild our departments on top of those principles.
LEMON: I've got to get a break in. When we come right back, more questions from our audience, plus, a police sergeant who hugged a young protestor, that moment that went viral. He's here next.
LEMON: And we're back. We have questions now. Rabbi Stephanie Kolin is here. What's your question?
RABBI STEPHANIE KOLIN, CENTRAL SYNAGOGUE IN MANHATTAN: First of all, thank you for hosting this.
So in a conversation I had recently just over the last couple of days with an African-American staff member in our community, she told me that every time her brother gets in a car, he is terrified. She is terrified that he is going to have an interaction with a police officer that something goes wrong in it and her brother is going to end up dead.
LEMON: What's your question, really quickly, and I don't mean to be disrespectful.
KOLIN: No, not at all.
One of the things she said to me is she is terrified, she is so scared, she is exhausted that it seems like things are going to have to get a lot worse before they get better.
And I guess my question is, Jewish tradition, we're taught to ask the question (SPEAKING IN HEBREW). "If not now, then when?" And so the question is, right now, what do we need to do? What are the policies? What are the commitments? What is the leadership? And what are the risks that we need take?
LEMON: Monifa, can you, just quickly?
BANDELE: Special prosecutors, we need to hold police accountable when they abuse people. They need to be brought to justice. Everything that I've been saying. And that is the hard piece.
It is easy to have running man contests between police and community kids, but what is hard is to say, these are the police officers who have violated people in our community, they need to be taken off of the force. They need to be brought to justice.
That piece is not happening. That has to happen. And I just want to add that the insidious attack on Blacks Lives Matter is really the most ridiculous part of all of this. Blaming them for the divisions that exist in the country is like blaming your doctor who discovers your cancer for your cancer.
LEMON: Thank you.
I want to bring in Christine Quinn now, she's a former speaker of the New York City Council.
CHRISTINE QUINN, FORMER SPEAKER OF NY CITY COUNCIL: Yes, I'm presently the CEO of Win, the largest provider of shelter to homeless families in New York City. And most of our heads of households are single mothers, mostly African- and Caribbean-American women.
And I've got to tell you, they do not feel their children's lives matters. They don't feel their son's lives matter. How do I know that? Because when I ask them what more can they do for their sons, they start out by -- every one of them telling me their son has never been arrested, isn't in a gang, isn't in drugs. Doesn't do drugs. They feel they have to prove their son's worthiness to me.
That comes in part from a stereotype that is perpetrated in society, not just by police but by society that crimes perpetrated by blacks when more whites kill whites. How do we stop the debilitating effect of that stereotype from dragging black mothers and black sons down.
LEMON: Mark O'Mara.
O'MARA: Quick solution. I think that whoever is going to be the next president, we ought to have a cabinet level position finally acknowledging that we need a race relations expert in this country, because we're not doing it. We're not giving it its due.
LEMON: Do you have a mike, Sergeant?
Sergeant Bret Barnum. I'm going to bring in Sergeant Bret Barnum. He's a Portland, Oregon, Police Department. You recognize him -- you may recognize him from -- you were hugging a young African-American boy two years ago, right?
So tell us about this moment as we go to the end of the show here.
SGT. BRET BARNUM, PORTLAND, OREGON, POLICE BUREAU: Well, I think the picture says it all. I'm hugging a young man who is looking for -- he is looking for resolve down in his own heart and I happen to notice him and could have turned my back. I could have looked away. But like a lot of folks, like Dmitri (ph) talked about earlier, you know, I'm a police officer and I'm here to help my community. If my community needed help and Vontae (ph) needed help that day, I tried to provide it to him.
LEMON: Yes. Thank you.
And I think that's -- we all need today come together and I hope we had some consensus.
LEMON: We could have done this forever but I want to thank everyone for joining us tonight. I want to thank all of you here in the studio. And I want to thank everyone at home for watching.
And I want to encourage everybody to continue this conversation that we began tonight. Continue where we left off.
Again, thank you so much for joining us this evening. Have a great night. Thanks, everybody.