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Three Baton Rouge Officers Remembered: Matthew Gerald, Montrell Jackson and Brad Garafola; Learning More About the Shooter; Baton Rouge Mayor Speaks Out; How to Keep Police Safe? Aired 10-11p ET

Aired July 17, 2016 - 22:00   ET


[22:00:00] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: We end with a friend talking about the friend he lost. We just got this picture of Officer Matthew Gerald. Nick Lambert tells CNN that he served in Army with him on Black Hawk helicopters. "This guy would never treat anyone differently for any reason," he says. "He always made people smile." Officer Gerald was 41 years old, had a wife and two children.

That's it for us tonight. Time now for "CNN TONIGHT" with Don Lemon.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you very much, Anderson. Our breaking news tonight, three police officers shot to death in Baton Rouge as thousands of GOP party faithful arrive right here in Cleveland, Ohio amid very tight security.

This is "CNN Tonight". I'm Don Lemon. Thank you very much for joining us this evening.

The fallen officers identified tonight as Matthew Gerald, Montrell Jackson and Brad Garafola. The gunman, Gavin Long, a 29-year-old black man from Kansas City, Missouri, a former Marine who served in Iraq, dead in the shootout. The chaos caught on dispatch audio.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officer shots fired, officer down. Shots fired, officer down. Got a city officer down. Shots fired. Shots fired on Airline.


LEMON: We're finding out about the gunman, apparently, belonging to several conspiracy groups, we are told, including a black sovereign citizens group that rejects government authority. Chillingly, he killed the officers on his birthday. And President Barack Obama saying attacks on police have happened far too often. Tells America this.


PRES. BARACK OBAMA, UNITED STATES: We as a nation have to be loud and clear that nothing justifies violence against law enforcement.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: Today's deadly attack coming in a city, it is my hometown of Baton Rouge, Louisiana, that's still reeling over the fatal shooting of Alton Sterling. His aunt making this heartbreaking plea.


VEDA WASHINGTON-ABUSALEH, ALTON STERLING'S AUNT: Stop this killing. Stop this killing. Stop this killing.


LEMON: Want to get to CNN's Chris Cuomo, he is live for us in Baton Rouge. He has been following this story for us this evening. So, Chris, I'm going to start with what can you tell us about this investigation tonight on the ground there in Baton Rouge?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, " NEW DAY": Well, very active both here in Baton Rouge, Don, in your hometown and also back in Kansas City, because that's where the murder came from. The authorities now believe that he rented a car after the Dallas police shootings and drove from Kansas City to Dallas and then, definitely on here to Baton Rouge. They also believe he was not alone here in Baton Rouge. And that doesn't mean that there were co-conspirators involved here, but police are looking into other individuals to find out what they may have known about this murder's plans and what brought him here, and if he had any contact with any other types of organizations.

But as you've already reported, this was a man with a long and sordid past. Unfortunately, he also had infantry training while in the Marines, which is why he was so capable with a weapon hitting six different officers. Three right now also injured, in additional to those who lost their lives. One has non-critical injuries. Two are still in critical condition. All of this started at 8:40 a.m. local time with a 911 call of reports of a man walking down the street with a long gun. It turned out to be an AR-style semi-automatic rifle.

Now, the authorities are looking, Don, at whether or not that was a planted call by this man or someone he knew or was just a concerned citizen who saw somebody with a long gun walking down the street dressed for battle which this man certainly was. When the authorities showed up on the scene, he opened fire. We know the results there. But within 10 minutes, it was over. Authorities responding with a second wave and emergency medical services taking out the shooter and treating those hurt at the scene, Don.

LEMON: Chris, as we were looking at some of the video earlier as you were speaking, it was aerials (ph) of his home in Missouri, obviously, they are checking the home and trying to find out everything they can about this man. Do we know anything more about him possibly luring officers there? They're not sharing that information. They're working on a couple of difference scenarios, correct?

CUOMO: I've been warned off the word ambush. They don't know. It could have been a 911 call from a concerned citizen. Obviously, they're working anybody who knew him to see whether or not there was a plan or anything else coordinated. But the early reports, not unlike what happened in Dallas, early reports of multiple shooters could easily be explained by the echo effect of his weapon if people aren't used to hearing it.

Right now, authorities do believe that they have the man responsible for the murders of these police. But there are a lot of other questions around it. They're not going to have to look very far to figure out where this guy's motive came for, Don. He had a lot of outspoken statements that directed hatred towards police and the government in general.

[22:05:05] LEMON: Chris, one of the officers killed today, he's name is Montrell Jackson. He posted this emotional note on Facebook, and I just want to read part of it for you. He says, "I'm tired physically and emotionally. Disappointed in some family, friends and officers for some reckless comments but, hey, what's in your heart is in your heart. I still love you all because hate takes too much energy but I definitely won't be looking at you the same. Thank you to everyone that has reached out to me or my wife. And it was need, much needed and much appreciated. I swear to God, I love this city, but I wonder if this city loves me. In uniform, I get nasty, hateful looks, and out of uniform, some consider me a threat. I've experienced so much in my short life and these last three days have tested me to the core. When people you know begin to question your integrity, you realize they don't really know you at all. Look at my actions. They speak loud and clear. Finally, I personally want to send prayers to everyone directly affected by this tragedy. These are trying times. Please don't hate or infect your heart. This city must and will get better. I'm working in these streets. So many protesters, officers, friends, family, whoever, if you see me and you need a hug or want to say a prayer, I got you." I mean, it's just heartbreaking, Chris. I know that's a long post here, but what does this say to you about how divided we are right now?

CUOMO: Well, I think that you can look at it different ways, Don. And I think if anything, it wasn't long enough. We need so much more of the type of compassion and the empathy that is expressed by Officer Jackson than what we're hearing today in so many different sectors of society that want to point out the obvious problems or problems that should be obvious.

I think that what he speaks to there that people should really listen to is not just his desire to overcome the hatred and negativity surrounding him, but also his understanding of one of the most difficult situations in our society today. A police officer who's also an African-American male and he felt that he in and out of uniform and yet where it took him, Don, wasn't to a place of rejection but of acceptance and of compassion of that problem. And no matter you -- where you and I have been around this country, we see the problems. We also always see what the solution is. It's people who want to see past the hate and toward solutions. And that's in short supply. Montrell Jackson had it in big doses.

LEMON: Agreed. Chris, we are learning more again about the shooter. His name is 29-year-old -- 29 years old, he's name is Gavin Long. It's very disturbing.

I want you to take a listen to a video post, it's on YouTube, it's from July 10th. Look at this.


GAVIN LONG, BATON ROUGE SHOOTER: Victims fighting their bullies, 100 percent have been successful through fighting back, through bloodshed. Zero have been successful just over simply protesting. It doesn't. It has never worked, and it never will. You've got to fight back. That's the only way a bully knows to quit. He doesn't know words. He can't understand words. I promise you. He doesn't understand protests. If you all want to keep protesting, do that. But for the serious ones, the real ones, the alpha ones, we know what it's going to take. It's only fighting back or money.


LEMON: Now, Chris, it has been said that he posted this on July 10th. He recorded it, he said, in Dallas, Texas. And we know that he rented a car in Kansas City, Missouri. Do you know the timeline between Dallas and Missouri and then Baton Rouge? What can you tell us about that?

CUOMO: Authorities are piecing it together. Certainly, he left Kansas City before the Dallas shootings and they have reason to believe he was in Dallas at or near the time of the Dallas shootings. He posted a video saying that he was in Dallas and expressing some kind of spiritual connection to what brought him there. And then obviously, he continued on to here. When and with whom, they're actively investigating.

But, Don, I think that, you know, while it bothers me to give this guy any attention for what his motivation was, I do think it's helpful to see the star contrast between what was in Jackson's head and heart and what was in this murder's head and heart. This man wasn't just wrong about history and the facts, but also about humanity. But he was completely right about what kind of individual succumbs to violence. It's an individual like him. Somebody who is divorced from human, someone who doesn't see reason anymore, someone who does believe that violence begets something other than violence. And they're dead wrong, just like he is tonight. And I think the contrast of what Montrell Jackson had to say and had to feel about these events and what this murderer had to say just shows how pointless violence is as an answer to any problem.

[22:09:59] LEMON: Yeah. Well put, Chris Cuomo. Chris, thank you very much. Chris going to standby. If we get anymore news there from the scene, Chris will bring it to us. Again, our thanks to Chris Cuomo.

I want to bring in now the mayor of Baton Rouge, Kip Holden. He joins me now by phone. Mayor, I appreciate you joining us here. I know that it has been a very trying time for you. This is a horrible day for Baton Rouge. How are the people doing there?

MAYOR MELVIN "KIP" HOLDEN, (D) BATON ROUGE: We're making it. I'll tell you what, it's real quiet right now, but basically, this was just a major gut blow. I mean, you know, nobody even expected this to happen. We were winding down from the other activities with Sterling family and then we pretty much has started getting into a mode of drawing down some of the officers that had been working 18 hours a day and saying we will relieve you now and cut back on some of the time you're having to put in. And then this morning, the first thing, bang, I mean, we are hit in the face with another incident.

LEMON: You and I have spoken over the past couple of hours and days and I know that it is again, it's been very difficult. It's a very close knit place down there. I grew up there. I want you to tell me about the conversations that people have been having with you especially.

HOLDEN: Basically, we have been bombarded by people who are saying, we are praying for you, we're praying for the officers, we're praying for their families, and we're praying for the city to come together. And so, therefore, they are not going to let the act of one person turn us around from our mission and goal in terms of making this city even greater than what it was before these two incidents.

The great thing is just this outpouring of love for everybody and even for the police officers, they are embracing police officers. They are stopping by the police headquarters and taking different things over there. They are now at the beck and call of the people who respond to them.

LEMON: Yeah. What can you tell us about because you're in these briefings with law enforcement? Can you tell us anything about -- what has stood out to you most as you are being briefed about this, about this shooter, about this situation, about what occurred?

HOLDEN: Well, with the shooter, it caught us off guard because this is something -- somebody's responding to a call. None of those guys expected to be basically this was their last day on earth. When they left their home, they went there, put on their uniform, went there looking to carry out their duty and their service. But unfortunately, this turned real bad and then from there, it turned out to be a devastating thing for Baton Rouge because this is something we never really experienced in a long, long time.

So, when you're looking at those officers, you have to make sure you tell those who are still working, hey, we are with you. We're going to be praying for you as well. And we're letting them know that they're not left out. They're not going to be left behind. Then we're going to be standing by them. And then for the community, we say this. We have to unite and come together. Pray for those officers. Pray for the city. Pray for those terrorists. And tell people again, we have to do building blocks and not stumbling blocks if we're going to succeed.

LEMON: Alton Sterling was shot by police earlier this month. And today Sterling's aunt spoke out about the officers. Listen to this.


WASHINGTON-ABUSALEH: We don't call for no bloodshed. That's how this all started. With bloodshed. We don't want no more bloodshed. So, if you're not on accord with us, leave. Go home. Go wherever you come from. This is our house. You can't come in our house killing us. That's what you're doing because at the end of the day, when these people call these families, and they tell them that their daddies and their mamas not coming home no more, I know how they feel because I got the same phone call. No justice, no justice, no peace. That's what we're calling for. Stop this killing. Stop this killing. Stop this killing.


LEMON: Gut-wrenching appeal there, Mayor. I know that ...

HOLDEN: Let me tell you, this ...

LEMON: ... the community is ...

HOLDEN: ... even the son of the gentleman that was killed with our police officers, I mean, this young man, 15 years old, and he stood up very firmly and said I don't want people protesting. I don't want you fighting. I don't want you using dope. I don't want you drinking, any of that. I want you to understand that we are here for peace. If you have to protest, that's fine, but protest peacefully. This young man is 15 years old and making a statements to grown-ups that we have to grow up in a situation. We can't tear everybody down. And so that family there has been a group of people who have felt it on both ends. And yes, they've come out and say don't do this killing. Don't do it. We're tired of it. They are emotionally drained after now going on the third week of this. They don't need any more heaped upon them by people who choose to prey upon officers and others in this community.

[22:15:03] LEMON: I want to play a clip from the Governor today in response to this tragedy, Mayor. Here he is.


GOV. JOHN BEL EDWARDS, (D) LOUISIANA: We have to do better. An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us. And the people who carried out this act, the individuals, they do not represent the people of Baton Rouge, or the State of Louisiana, or what's best about our country. They don't represent the values we stand for. Obviously, our community is hurting. And only through peace and unity can we heal. And that's going to take constructive dialogue. There simply is no place for more violence. That doesn't help anyone. It doesn't further the conversation. It doesn't address any injustice perceived or real. It is just an injustice in and of itself. And we are not going to tolerate more hate and violence, tearing apart the communities and families of Louisiana.


LEMON: So Mayor, the community is in fear. Police officers are living in fear as well. What are you and other leaders saying in order to calm nerves there?

HOLDEN: Well, I was at the press conference with the Governor and we all are on one accord. And what we basically say, we're not going to be intimidated by anybody. We're going to do our job, do it in a professional manner like we always have done. But I called upon the community to understand, those people killed and injured are first responders. And I said now it is our time to be first responders, but those who are victims of this senseless killing, and let them know we are standing there for them, and we're going to be with them and no, we're not going to let this define Baton Rouge.

LEMON: Are you concerned, Mayor, about any of the rhetoric or anything that's going around because there are those who say that some of the rhetoric from some of the protesters may be leading to these officers being hurt. Are you concerned about that?

HOLDEN: I'm concerned about it. And I urge them to tone it down because, you know, there's speculation that some of the things that were said during those marches, even at city hall and calling for my resignation. All of these things were sparked by some of these people who were protesting. There's time for them to turn it down. And frankly, turn it off. And then turn on and listen to the right things they should be doing to set the proper example for our community.

LEMON: Explain what you mean by that.

HOLDEN: Simply, we have some people here in this city and parish that, you know, have held grudges against the police. Now we're looking at what we need to do, and we're going to do a whole lot of things. I mean, right now I'm, you know, looking outside, there are officers playing football with kids across the street. And those things, they need to see all the good they have and stop looking at one bad thing and then passing judgment on our officers because of their warped mind.

LEMON: The mayor of Baton Rouge, Louisiana tonight, Kip Holden. Mayor, thank you very much for that.

HOLDEN: Yes, sir, and thank you.

LEMON: When we come right back, much more on our breaking news. Three police officers shot to death in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. The are new details about the shooter.


[22:21:28] LEMON: OK. We're back now with our breaking news. Three police officers shot dead, three wounded in Baton Rouge. The gunman killed in the shootout with police.

I want to discuss it now the Baton Rouge investigation now with Cedric Alexander, he's a public safety director of the DeKalb County, Georgia and also the author of "The New Guardians, Policing in America's Communities for the 21st Century", also Bernard Kerik, the former New York City police commissioner, and Art Roderick, is a former associate director of the U.S. Marshals office. Gentlemen, I appreciate you joining me. I mean, this is a very tough evening. We have been discussing these shootings, it seems way too often.

Cedric, I'm going to start with you. One scenario that investigators looking at is that police officers were set up with a fake crime call to lure them in. Our Chris Cuomo said he was waved off of that ambush word. What can you tell us about that?

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, you know, I think in this particular case, it appears -- certainly has the appearance of an ambush. But I think until we know more, because this is still an emerging investigation, Don. And I would imagine they probably have more information that they're willing -- than what they're willing to share right now. And that's to protect the integrity of this investigation.

But it certainly has all the elements of what appeared to be an ambush, but quite frankly, that was still maybe being a little speculative until we know more. And I think over the next day or two, they're going to be much more crystal clear in terms of what really happened here and with more of a motive.

LEMON: Have you ever heard someone setting up a bogus 911 call to explicitly attack police?

ALEXANDER: You talking to me, Don?


ALEXANDER: You talking to me, Don?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We lost the satellite.


ALEXANDER: Yeah. Listen ...

LEMON: I'm talking to Bernard Kerik. Bernard Kerik, can you hear me?

BERNARD KERIK, FMR. NYPD COMMISSIONER: Yeah, I got you. It has happened. It's happened a number of times, especially back in the '70s, '80s. The Black Panther Party, the Black Liberation Army in New York City, Chicago, L.A. We had a number of executions or assassinations, 911 calls, calls to police to respond to a certain place and the cops were then ambushed. This wouldn't be the first time. And I'm sure it won't be the last if that's what's happened. But I think we have to wait until the investigations completed or at least more details come out like Cedric said. You know, we don't want to jump to conclusions.

LEMON: Yeah. So I just want to tell you guys and tell the audience at home, there are some technical issues. We lost the satellite for a while and we're having a couple of problems with even the cameras and teleprompter, I should say. So, if it's a little dicey, that's the reason.

Does that -- what you said Bernard Kerik, does that make every police officer across this country second-guess every call that they get to tonight, that they go on tonight?

KERIK: You know what, Don, I think, you know, as Officer Jackson's Facebook post that you read, this heart-wrenching post that he posted just a week ago or so, you know, cops are frustrated. Given the times that we live in between what's going on with this anti-cop sort of racial rhetoric and then also on the terrorism front, every job is a job that you have to watch, every call is a call that you have to watch.

[22:24:59] You have to be prepared. You have to second guess it. It's the world we live in right now. And it's unfortunate.

LEMON: Let's go through this, Art. Looking at all this information on the desk here, this is about a YouTube posting apparently that he did in Dallas, right, on July 10th. This was a video that was recorded in Dallas.


LEMON: Supposedly after the Dallas shootings. Then also there's this Facebook, he tweeted this yesterday. "Just because you wake up every morning doesn't mean you're living. And just because you shed your physical body, it doesn't mean that you're dead." And then there are also other things that he possibly belonged to some sort of, I guess, black separatist group, so to speak, or sovereign group.


LEMON: What do you make of all of this?

RODERICK: This is obviously disturbed individual, and he was in Dallas on July 10th, I believe. And I think, you know, we were concerned. We were talking out in Dallas about possibility of copycats. And I think you have exactly that particular incident here.

I'll tell you what's sad and you're from Baton Rouge. I don't know if you recall this, but March of 2015, a young deputy U.S. Marshal, an African-American, Josie Wells, was shot and killed by a fugitive wanted for a double homicide. So the Baton Rouge community absolutely has to be just down at the very bottom right now. And looking at it, the only way to go is up at this point. I mean, you heard Mr. Sterling's aunt come out with a plea today which was heart-wrenching to listen to it. But, you know, here we are in this same situation again with a deranged individual that took an AR-15 and ended up shooting.

LEMON: Are your sources telling you anything about possible motives here, because this -- the group is called the Washitaw Nation, right, which is an ...


LEMON: ... anti-government group. What are your sources telling you about possible motives and about this group?

RODERICK: Well, I mean, when you look at this group, if you just check this group in a vacuum, OK, there are many associates that belong to this particular group but none of them are overly violent. But when you put that in with some of these other groups that he belongs to or other websites that he's visited, it presents a very bizarre picture of a stranger individual. And he has -- he also has traveled overseas pretty extensively after he got out of the military. So it's a very strange picture that we have in front of us here.

LEMON: Cedric, I'm not sure if you heard. I was on with the Mayor just a short time ago and he said he was concerned, as, you know, many people around the country are concerned about some of the rhetoric and some of the protest. He would rather protests not happen there. And he said to see -- these are his words and I'm paraphrasing here just a bit, a more positive resolution to that and more positive words rather than the protesting and picketing going on. What do you make of the Mayor's comments?

ALEXANDER: Well, you know, at the end of the day, it's going to be left up to the people of that community to exercise their First Amendment right. But, I think, one thing I heard him say earlier today, Don, if you're going to protest, it certainly need to be done peacefully. And that is very, very true. But in addition to that, what is really important in that community, they're hurt, they're in pain, they really had not moved past the first shooting that we saw a week ago. And here today, we have the loss of lives of these police officers and in a small community, like Baton Rouge, your hometown, Don, and also, I have a lot of family there I just talked to today. Everybody knows everybody. I got family member that know Officer Jackson that died today. So, it's very painful. It's very hurtful.

But the rhetoric, the negative, negative rhetoric has to stop not just in Baton Rouge, but across this country because that is really not a place for us right particularly now or any other time. We have too much going on in this country. We're trying to elect a president. We have ISIS that are out there that's trying to do harm to us and our own homeland.

And now more than ever, everyone in this country, men and women, Democrats, Republicans, black, whites, everyone, Don, we really have to stand together. And in spite of these tragedies we've experienced over the last today, last week in Dallas and other events that we've suffered here most recently, now more than ever, all Americans, all of us, we've got to stand together. It is so critically important for our healing to even start to begin.

LEMON: All right, everyone. Stay with us for more on our breaking news tonight here on CNN. The shooting deaths of three Baton Rouge police officers.


[22:33:18] LEMON: Our breaking news tonight. The fatal police shooting in Baton Rouge today and I want to bring in now Sheriff Sid Gautreaux of East Baton Rouge. Also joining me exclusively Chief Carl Dabadie of Baton Rouge Police and also Colonel Mike Edmonson, Louisiana State Police Superintendent. I need to tell you guys at home, please bear with us. There's quite a delay with this, but I thought it was important to get all three of these gentlemen on - suffer such terrible tragedy today. Chief, thank you so much for joining us. This is a nightmare for you and your department. I'm sorry that we are having to see each other like this again. What can you tell me tonight?

CHIEF CARL DABADIE JR., BATON ROUGE POLICE: Well, I can tell you right now that the community here is in mourning of our officers who have been slain needlessly in the line of duty. We are -- our hopes and our prayers are with their families right now, and we're praying for peace and calm.

LEMON: Chief, what can you tell us more on the investigation into this?

DABADIE: I'm not allowed to talk about the investigation. I'm going to let Colonel Edmondson do that part of it since state police is handling the investigation. They've come in and taken that over for us.

LEMON: Ask him to tell us about that investigation, please.

DABADIE: Colonel, something that you were talking ...

COL. MIKE EDMONSON, LOUISIANA STATE POLICE SUPERINTENDENT: I think the main thing on the investigation is what's critical at this point is there's not an active shooter scenario ongoing city of Baton Rouge. That's what was going on, of course, much, much earlier today.

[22:35:10] But right now the investigation has a lot of moving parts. We're in the process, and as far as the crime scene throughout the night. That's going to take quite sometime because when you look at the crime scene itself, it's probably spread out over about 500 or 600 yards along airline highway.

Also with that, we'll be doing interviews throughout the night. We're going to several different places. This has taken us throughout Baton Rouge and of course working with our federal partners in different other areas around the country. So, it's a long way going. We've got a lot of work to do here and we're going do a briefing with the media probably sometime tomorrow afternoon around 2:00 or 2:30. About three, we'll have some more information that time. But right now, we just can't talk about what's going on because the fact that still fluid and still critical.

LEMON: OK. I want to talk to you also about these, chief, if you can tell me. There are three of your officers are sadly have passed away. Three others wounded. There's one that's in extremely critical condition fighting for his life. We understand that it's really touch and go. Can you tell us about his condition tonight?

DABADIE: The condition of the critical officer is a deputy with the sheriff's office. I'm going to let the sheriff talk about that. The Baton Rouge Police Department has suffered the loss of two Baton Rouge city police officers killed in the line of duty. And we had one that was injured, but he has been released. Sheriff Gautreaux who had the other officers that were injured. So I'll let him fill you in on that part. LEMON: Go ahead, sheriff.

SHERIFF SID GAUTREAUX, EAST BATON ROUGE: We had three of our deputies involved in this. One of them is sadly deceased. We have two more in the hospital that were shot. One is recovering from his injuries. The third, as we speak, he's in very critical condition and he's fighting for his life as we speak in the hospital.

LEMON: Chief, I know that your officers are concerned about their safety. I know that they have been going out in pairs, not solo officers anymore. Can you speak to us about the n and women on the Baton Rouge police force and what they're dealing with right now?

DABADIE: Well, they're dealing with a lot of stress right now. There's a lot of fear. A lot of anxiety. They've been working for 13 days straight now. 12-hour shifts every day. And, you know, they're on the edge. But working with the sheriff's office and state police, our joint sheriff's office task force has sent in some reinforcements to kind of spell our guys and allow our guys to get some rest. And I can't tell you how helpful that is to our guys, how their morale is lifted when they know they have backup and help. And we definitely have that here. Our Chiefs of Police Association are also stepping up with that. We've gotten a lot of support. So, we're keeping our city safe and we're going to continue to do that.

LEMON: Colonel, you know, I know you can't talk about the investigation, but from what has been described to me from my sources there, is that there is video, I'm not sure what the source is, but video of what's ...

EDMONSON: Look, obviously we don't have an earpiece in, Don't, so I can't hear the question you're asking. But as far as my (inaudible) state police, I -- look, we want the prayers from around the country. You know, we're mourning just like Dallas. I mean, my two partners, my two brothers right here. I was in the hospital with them. I saw firsthand the grief on their face as they were trying to talk to the families.

You know, this has got to stop. It's got to start, you know, right here at the local level around the state and throughout the nation. This is not just something that we can tolerate. These are police officers in the face of danger. They're running towards it, you know. In this situation this morning, to not even know what's getting ready to happen at that point. It's an unfathomable situation that is hard for us now as three brothers to sit here and figure out and let our guys know because we're behind them. We support them. We just ask them to remember the training. We ask them to be safe.

GAUTREAUX: I think it's very important on the -- just like colonel just said. Right now our focus, myself, the chief. We are all trying to heal, kind of healing process. We still in the middle of this. We're trying to take care of our family and the families of these officers. And at the same time, continue to provide the same level of protection and service to this community. And that's our focus right now. [22:40:10] LEMON: Chief, one last question before we go. I'm here in

Cleveland. There's heavy police presence, as we get ready for this convention. There's going to be a convention in Philadelphia a week from now. Your officers are on edge. What do you say to law enforcement around the nation who is watching very closely Baton Rouge, Louisiana tonight?

DABADIE: Well, I think I would first say, don't think this can't happen in your city. We never would have thought that this could happen in Baton Rouge but it has. We ask all the officers in this country at the conventions and wherever they may be that they be vigilant, that they remember their training, they remember the rules of engagement and that they don't take chances. That's what we've been preaching to our officers for the last two weeks to stay vigilant. Stay professional and do the job the way that you're trained. And I think that would be our message to any of them.

LEMON: Thank you very much, Chief Carl Dabadie, also Sheriff Gautreaux from East Baton Rouge, and also Colonel Mike Edmonton, Louisiana State Police Superintendent. Thank you very much.

And I just want to tell our viewers to be honest here. We did not want -- they didn't feel safe as a matter fact. We did not want them going to the scene where it happened and that it was appropriate and for their safety so we went to the Baton Rouge Police Department. And so the technical delay that we had was because of that. Again, we didn't want the officers going to the scene, nor did they want to go to that scene as well and certainly that's understandable. So thank you so much for bearing with us through that long delay with that interview. Again, our thoughts and prayers with law enforcement and all the people down in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

When we come right back, outspoken Sheriff David Clarke. What he thinks it will take to keep our police safe.


[22:45:34] LEMON: Our breaking news tonight. Three officers dead, three wounded in Baton Rouge. A really tough day for Baton Rouge and for the country.

Here to talk about how to keep our police safe is Sheriff David Clarke with Milwaukee County, Wisconsin. He's going to be speaking at the Republican Convention tomorrow night. Sheriff, thank you very much for that. Horrific day. Spoke to the heads of the sheriff department and police department and the state police down there. They told us how their hearts were reeling. Their message is peace and coming together in the country. What's your message?

SHERIFF DAVID CLARKE, MILWAUKEE COUNTY, WISCONSIN: You don't believe that for one minute, do you?

LEMON: That their message is?


LEMON: That's what they said to me.


LEMON: Yeah, I believe them.

CLARKE: Any protests over the deaths of the cops in Baton Rouge?

LEMON: I don't know that. I don't know that.

CLARKE: Any riots or protests over the police officers in Dallas, Texas?

LEMON: What are you asking?

CLARKE: It's a pretty simple question.

LEMON: I asked you what your message to the people, their message is one of peace. What is your message?

CLARKE: My message has been clear from day one two years ago. This anti-cop sentiment from this hateful ideology called Black Lives Matter has fueled as range against the American police officer. I predicted this two years ago.

What I want to know ...

LEMON: OK, sheriff.

CLARKE: Do I want to know?

LEMON: With all do respect, do you know that this was because of that ...

CLARKE: Yes, I do.

LEMON: ... as a law enforcement officer.

CLARKE: I've been watching this for two years. I've predicted this. This anti-police rhetoric sweeping the country ...

LEMON: Yeah.

CLARKE: ... has turned out some hateful things inside of people that are now playing themselves out on the American police officer. I want to know with all of the black on black violence in the United States of America, by the way, when the tragedies happened in Louisiana and Minnesota, you know that 21 black people were murdered across the United States? Was there any reporting on that?

LEMON: Black officer who was killed today.

CLARKE: Was there any reporting on that?

LEMON: Sheriff, please. Let's just keep the vibe down here. So I understand, and, listen ...

CLARKE: I'm looking at three dead cops this week and I am looking at five last week. You're trying to tell me to keep it down?

LEMON: Can we just please? We can keep it civil. The message to people at home, I'm sure you want is one of civility.

CLARKE: Don, I wish you had that message of civility ...

LEMON: I would like to have a conversation with you ...

CLARKE: ... for this hateful ideology. These purveyors of hate.

LEMON: You don't know what my message is. What I want to ...

CLARKE: That's what they do. These people ...

LEMON: Well, if you let me finish ...


LEMON: We'll be right back. We're going to go to break and we'll be right back. Are you going to let me talk?


[22:51:55] LEMON: Back now live with Sheriff David Clarke, of Milwaukee County, Wisconsin, and we're here live in Cleveland, you're set to speak tomorrow night. And again, all I want to do is have a conversation. I can't have a conversation with you if we're both talking at the same time.

What it sounds like to me is that you're accusing me of violence and supporting a narrative that I'm not necessarily in support of. And if you're -- if that's what you're accusing me of violence and you can leave. That's not true. I don't support violence at any type against police officers against anyone. So if you're accusing me of that then you're welcome to leave. But if you want to have a conversation I'm more than willing to welcome a conversation with you.

I don't disagree with you about that there's a narrative across the country that could be harming police officers, but we don't know right now, as someone who was in law enforcement, if that was the actual cause of it.

CLARKE: Let me ask you this, do we know that generally the American officers are racist? Do we know this?

LEMON: Go on.

CLARKE: I asked a question.

LEMON: Do I know American general law enforcement is racist?


LEMON: I don't think anyone is accusing. If you're insinuating that people are accusing or saying that law enforcement across this country as a whole are racist, then your assumption is wrong. CLARKE: First of all, this whole anti-police rhetoric is based on a

lie. There is no data, and you know this, there is no data, there is no research that proves any of that nonsense. None.

LEMON: You have to be more specific about what data and what nonsense you're talking about.

CLARKE: That law enforcement officers treat black males different than white males in policing in these urban centers.

LEMON: There is data that supports that.

CLARKE: There is not data.

LEMON: The president spoke about it. Cedric Alexander, who's a law enforcement officer ...

CLARKE: The president is been lying about it. He said it again the other day when he said that black males are two times more likely to be shot by a law enforcement officer than white male. Don't, that is a lie.

LEMON: That is not a lie.

CLARKE: It is a lie. Show me ...

LEMON: The research that we have from "The Washington Post" ...

CLARKE: The Washington Post" debunked that nonsense. He also said there's ...

LEMON: Sheriff, there's also research ...

CLARKE: He continues.

LEMON: ... from a Harvard professor that also showed that black people are treated more aggressively by police officers ...

CLARKE: No, you are wrong and your interpretation of that Harvard study, because I read the study. That's not what he said. He said he was surprised to find ...

LEMON: He was surprised to find that in shootings of the most severe in shootings, that he found no evidence that there was a difference. Also it should be noted, that that study was a very small sampling of police departments across the country, many people have did not find it credible. But it's also interesting that in that research he found that blacks were treated differently when it came to aggressive policing but for the most egregious shootings he found no difference. That's what that study showed.

[22:55:2] CLARKE: Based on what? Just generally? Are we talking about high crime areas? Are we talking about police officers being under attacked because let's go back to where this whole thing started in Ferguson, Missouri.

LEMON: Sheriff. Sheriff.


LEMON: You're lumping a whole bunch of things into one.


LEMON: I give you one specific ...

CLARKE: That's where this whole phony movement started. It started out his hands ...

LEMON: You're talking about Black Lives Matter?

CLARKE: Right.

LEMON: OK. So you would need to speak to someone who is a member of Black Lives Matter about whether they are -- have perpetrated a fraud on the American people, that's up to Black Lives Matter, that's not me. I'm neither a member of Black Lives Matter. I'm neither a supporter or someone who doesn't support them. I simply report on Black Lives Matter.

CLARKE: Do you condemn the anti-police rhetoric coming from this hateful ideology? LEMON: As a journalist sitting on television, I don't have to condemn anyone -- anything. That is something ...

CLARKE: Well I do.

LEMON: ... that I ask other people around the country that their jobs ...

CLARKE: I condemn that just like I condemn the hateful ideology groups like the KKK, all right? I condemn it. There is no place in American discourse for that sort of vile, vitriolic hate coming out of that ideology. This has fueled and fanned the flames of this anger toward the American police officer. There's only one group in America, one time, that truly cares about the lives of black people and it's urban ghetto, and it's the American police officer, who goes out there on a daily basis, puts their life on the line to protect who? Black people.

So when you say we just want to have the conversation about the black on black crime which kills more black males, which is more of a threat to any black male in the United States than a law enforcement officer.

LEMON: Sheriff, yes, that's a different conversation. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. There's an issue when it comes to violence. Black on black crime or black -- its crime. White people kill white people.


CLARKE: Not in the number.

LEMON: That's a difference conversation ...

CLARKE: I don't care who white ...

LEMON: That is a different conversation that police brutality. And we're not having that conversation right now. And again, I want to be very clear with you, I condemn all violence of any type. Just for the record.

CLARKE: Was the situation between Mike Brown and Darren Wilson, was that police brutality?

LEMON: We're not talking about Mike Brown and Daren Wilson.

CLARKE: Yes or no? I am.

LEMON: If you're asking me what the justice department show. The justice department showed that exonerated officer Darren Wilson. And that the hands of (inaudible) narrative was a false narrative. That has been reported by CNN and by others.

CLARKE: And that was another pony report ...

LEMON: What does that have to do with Baton Rouge, Louisiana?

CLARKE: All right. Because when you take in ...

LEMON: What does that have to do with Baton Rouge, Louisiana?

CLARKE: ... rates of involvement and violent crime, and crime in general but violent crime, you're going to see that black males are over represented ...

LEMON: Yeah.

CLARKE: ... in terms of being involved in violent crime, that's going to mean more arrests ...

LEMON: Sheriff.

CLARKE: ... that's going to be more people going to prison. This stuff has already been debunked.

LEMON: Sheriff, that's a different conversation. Many people don't ...

CLARKE: Any time you don't have a response to something I say ...

LEMON: How I don't have response is that when you -- we're having two different conversations. I'm taking about -- I'm asking the questions here and you're answering the questions by asking questions about other subject that we're not discussing. That is not a conversation.

CLARKE: We're talking about the hateful ideology called Black Lives Matter. You said you're not a member? You can't be a member, it's not a organization. It is an ideology, it's a hateful ideology.

LEMON: I understand this is a very sensitive time for you.

CLARKE: These individuals ...

LEMON: And sheriff, we appreciate you coming on, thank you.

CLARKE: They preach vile and vitriol in the name of virtue.

LEMON: Thank you, sheriff. We appreciate it. We understand it's a very tough time for you. We'll be right back.