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Trump Breaks from U.S. Foreign Policy Tradition; Fmr. Mexican President on Trump's NAFTA Threat; The U.S. State Saving Refugees

Aired July 21, 2016 - 14:00:00   ET


[14:00:12] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Tonight from the Republican National Convention, Donald Trump has just been

on stage here behind me practicing ahead of his big speech later this evening. Hoping to paper over cracks within the party, which have been on

global view, as his former rival, Ted Cruz, refuses to endorse him.

Amidst all the drama here, Trump also outlines a major break with decades of U.S. foreign policy.

Former Congressman Mike Rogers is my guest.

Plus, disbelief from the former Mexican President, Vicente Fox, as Trump also threatens to scrap in a split second the NAFTA-free trade deal.


VICENTE FOX, FORMER PRESIDENT OF MEXICO: It's absolutely a big error. You can talk to any CEO of the corporate world in America to GM, to Chrysler,

to DuPont, to Global, to any of them and they will understand the mechanics of how trade works and how economies benefit from both sides.


AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in Cleveland for the final day of the Republican


It is Donald Trump's big night. And he has just been checking out the stage in the arena below before he officially accepts the G.O.P. nomination


And he will try to emerge from the last three days where this convention has been overshadowed by controversies, from plagiarism on Monday to Ted

Cruz refusing to endorse Trump from this stage last night. Despite earlier saying that he would support his party's nominee.


SEN. TED CRUZ, (R-TX) FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am not in the habit of supporting people who attack my wife and attack my father.


And that pledge was not a blanket commitment that if you go and slander and attack, Heidi, that I'm going to nonetheless come like a servile puppy dog

and say thank you very much for maligning my wife and maligning my father.


AMANPOUR: That was this morning after this hall erupted into boos at Cruz's last stand.


CRUZ: Stand and speak and vote your conscience, vote for candidates up and down the ticket who you trust to defend our freedom and to be faithful to

the constitution.



AMANPOUR: Of course last night was meant to have been the showcase for VP hopeful Mike Pence. Trump stood in the wings as this all unfolded, which

was puzzling observers who were wondering about how this could have even happened.

Both sides say the speech was viewed beforehand. Donald Trump also gave a foreign policy interview to "The New York Times," revealing -- it was

revealing for breaking with decades of Republican Party policy, changing the terms of the NATO alliance and pulling out of free trade deals.

I asked former Republican Congressman Mike Rogers, who was also chair of the House Intelligence Committee, how this would work. And could a Trump

presidency unite his own party around this vision.


AMANPOUR (on-camera): Congressman, welcome back to the program.

MIKE ROGERS, FORMER U.S. HOUSE REPUBLICAN: Thanks for having me again.

AMANPOUR: I mean, it was a spectacle here last night on this floor. All anybody can talk about is the divisions that continue within the Republican

Party, even at the convention, and Ted Cruz simply refusing to endorse Donald Trump.

What's your read?

ROGERS: Well, you know, I guess I'm an old-fashioned politician. Donald Trump was not my candidate going into this race. And parties are

coalitions. And at the end of the day, even like parliaments that build coalitions to form a governing body, same here in the United States except

we do it within two parties. Lots of differences in each party.

My concern was that the senator signed a pledge that said he would support the Republican nominee.

AMANPOUR: Except he now says that Donald Trump by assaulting -- insulting his wife and his father, and peddling conspiracy theories invalidated that


ROGERS: Yes, and I didn't agree with any of those comments, but at the end of the day, it's politics. And it's rough and tumble

This is in a sports arena, after all, right, which is very highly competitive. When it's over, it's over. The dust settles.

I thought he did himself a disservice for that reason. He took a primetime speaking role, which would indicate that you're going to support the

candidate. He signed that pledge. Made a very effective case, by the way, for conservatives on why Hillary Clinton wouldn't be the right pick for

president. And then didn't do it.

And I think that just -- boy, I just think it's not healthy for the unity of the party going into it. And again, my candidate lost. This was not my

candidate. But I think party unity is going to be important moving forward.

[14:05:12] AMANPOUR: But is it even possible? I mean, this is meant to be the place where there's party unity. And still there are so many people

who have significant doubts within your own party about Donald Trump's ability to govern.

ROGERS: Well, there's lots of concern. First of all, somebody said something interesting yesterday. I think it was Chris Christie. He said,

you know, you can't expect a candidate to be the outsider, businessperson, anti-politician and then come in and talk like a politician and make

everybody feel better. You can't have it both ways.

AMANPOUR: Well, the thing is he wants it both ways and his people want it both ways, obviously. They think he can. And so to that point, let's talk

about the nitty-gritty of foreign policy because it just so happens he gave an interview to "The New York Times," in which he said some pretty amazing

things about NATO and about basic established Republican foreign policy.

About NATO, for instance, talking about coming to the aid of NATO allies if indeed anybody is attacked.

He says have they fulfilled their obligations to us? If they fulfilled their obligations to us, the answer is yes, in terms of protecting them and

going to their aid. But that's not what NATO is all about.

ROGERS: You know, certainly article five says we're going to be there no matter what. But it's interesting, so I go back and looked at this NATO.

When I first heard his first NATO speech, I thought --

AMANPOUR: Yes, but this is last night, the NATO --


ROGERS: I know. But his first one was not much better actually. He did the same kind of thing, saying he was going to walk away. But then you

read it a little deeper, he always leaves himself an out.

So I started wondering as an old former FBI agent, is this a business guy setting up the negotiation to win.

Remember that position that NATO pays its two percent GDP for every country? It's something that Hillary Clinton supports. And every

secretary of state of both parties backed 20 years.

Is he trying to set that up to win? I don't know the answer to this. But if you're looking at it from a business perspective, maybe he's setting up

the negotiations to win.

AMANPOUR: But the thing is, A, is foreign policy a business transaction? Is this, you know, --

ROGERS: Well, it shouldn't be.

AMANPOUR: Protectionism if only if you pay us. And every American administration has indeed said that and yet they haven't said, no, we're

not coming to your aid if you get attacked. That's a violation of the NATO charter.

ROGERS: It certainly would be a violation of the charter if you said, you haven't paid, we're not showing up. But just that really -- I'm not sure.

I have not talked to him on his foreign policy.

But it just shows that this is somebody who isn't part of that national security understanding. Maybe he didn't do this every day. And so he's

got this -- you're going to put the right people around him to get the right advice. He did say he was meeting with Secretary Baker and I think

that probably is helpful for him.

AMANPOUR: Well, can I just say then, because you brought up Secretary Baker, before we go on with NATO. He said Baker, Kissinger, have been to

an extent his mentors, you know, establishment, foreign policy Republican figures for decades.

Baker, who won't criticize, but has said protectionism, isolationism is not the way to secure the United States or to secure a prosperous world. And

that is what Donald Trump is saying.

He said we're going to tear up NAFTA if we don't get it exactly to my liking. We're not going to do the TPP. He is talking isolationist and


ROGERS: Well, and again, I'm neither of those things. He always leaves himself an out. And so, again, I think, you know, again, I want to look

behind that.

AMANPOUR: So why is he saying this then --


ROGERS: When you go back and look at somebody's profile, what are they thinking when they either say the words --


AMANPOUR: But why are they saying this? Why are they saying this? Because it upsets allies and it might upset the people of the united states

if they knew what protectionism would do to their jobs, to do this economy.

ROGERS: Again, if you ever engage in a protectionist policy, very harmful to the United States, harmful to our allies. I believe in U.S. engagement

around the world. Commerce is our best diplomat. Commerce has beaten every military division in the world since time has begun. And so you need

to engage in that process.

It's interesting to me that he's really not talking to NATO partners. He doesn't believe he's talking to those. He's talking to people here who are

really frustrated. And he always leaves himself some wiggle room at the end.

Yes, I'm going to tell NATO where to go, well, unless they do the right thing.

AMANPOUR: And yes, I'm going to pull out of NAFTA unless they do something.

ROGERS: Unless they do something.

AMANPOUR: Because that will cost millions of jobs.

ROGERS: Yes. I can't really see him doing it. I don't know how exactly he would do it. But maybe at the end of the day, as someone told me on the

delegation floor yesterday, maybe he gets a better deal. Isn't that the right -- isn't that a better deal for America?

You know, I don't know. It's not a tactic I would use and certainly not a tactic that I think helps reassure our allies, but maybe he's on to

something when it comes to voters and their frustration.

AMANPOUR: Back to allies. I mean, little Estonia, which is a member of NATO, has tweeted that, "You know what, we came to the aid of the United

States in the only time, post 9/11, that they invoked Article V, "An attack on one is an attack on all." And we went to Afghanistan with no caveats

and we're paying our 2 percent."

So that was a little dig.

ROGERS: They're one of five that are paying.

AMANPOUR: Well, exactly, including Great Britain. And, of course, the NATO secretary general is basically saying, "NATO, a U.S.-led coalition of

unequals, has been good for peace and security. And they're worried that Trump's statements kind of jeopardize peace and security in Europe."

[14:15:00] ROGERS: They're with us in the Middle East. They're with us in other places. They're going to help us in some efforts in Africa along

with the U.N. to make sure we bring peace and stability to those areas.

All of that is going to be incredibly important. Can you get the right person whispering in his ear? I think he can. He claims that's the kind

of things that he does well.

AMANPOUR: On that note, Congressman Mike Rogers, thank you very much for being with us today.

ROGERS: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

AMANPOUR: And just a quick note on NATO, the head of the Senate, the U.S. Senate, Mitch McConnell, the Senate majority leader has said that he

fundamentally disagrees with nominee Donald Trump's view on NATO.

So now the view from south of the border. That's next.

Former Mexican President Vicente Fox trashes Trumpian trade logic and says Mexico, not the United States, would be the winner if Trump becomes

president. That's after this.


AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. One of Donald Trump's first campaign pledges was to build a wall with Mexico if he became president.

Now we know also that he's willing to tear down a 20-year-old free trade pact between the two. I spoke to the former Mexican President Vicente Fox,

who himself was a businessman, a conservative who worked well with the former president George W. Bush.

But when I reached him in Mexico, he laid out his case against Trump for president and why that in his view would be a disaster for American jobs

and the American economy.


AMANPOUR: President Fox, welcome to the program.

FOX: Thank you very much. A pleasure and an honor to be with you and with CNN.

AMANPOUR: Well, I am sure that you are there in Mexico watching this convention. You have been a fierce critic of Donald Trump on immigration,

on the wall, on trade. Is there anything that you've seen this week that changes your opinion?

FOX: Well, not at all. As a matter of fact, it gets worse because what I've been seeing these four days is like a circus, like charade. So this

brings me to my mind the idea of a dog-and-cat fight, aggressiveness, violence, hate, and things that we're not used to seeing democracies around

the world.

AMANPOUR: Let me dig down on some of what nominee Donald Trump has been saying recently, particularly about your region of the world.

In a new foreign policy interview in "The New York Times," he has said that in a second, in a split second, he would scrap the NAFTA trade deal. He

says it's a disaster for the United States.

What is your reaction to that?

FOX: I think it's a big threat. It's a big risk. What U.S. citizens and the nation is running by electing as candidate of the Republican Party, a

person like this.

He thinks that being successful in business, which I even question that, gives him the capacities to run a nation. It's absolutely different. I

went through that process myself.

As you'll remember, I was president of the Coca-Cola Company for Latin America and I moved into politics. It's a lot of difference between one

and the other.

And I'm surprised if people in United States want a businessman as president. First of all, it's a big risk. But number two, there are many

thousands of great business leaders in corporate America, much better than him.

So I'm surprised that he is the candidate and surprised people following these crazy ideas. To me, he's a false prophet. He's cheating people. So

my cry is wake up, America. Analyze. Evaluate. Don't go for the circus. Don't go for the charade. Don't go for the lights and the music. Go for

the contents, the ideas, the proposals.

[14:15:00] AMANPOUR: The American people who are voting for Donald Trump are afraid. They are very emotional about the lack of jobs or what they

perceive to be immigration and what they call unfair trade deals, taking jobs away.

Can you sum up why Americans who are worried about their own jobs should think that NAFTA actually is to their benefit?

FOX: In the last ten years, United States' economy has lost 30 percent of manufacturing jobs, but has replaced those jobs with knowledge jobs,

knowledge economy, with service economy, with tourism, with small businesses, and they have grown the amount of jobs for close to 100

percent. So all jobs lost in manufacturing have been replaced.

Part of those came to Mexico through NAFTA and part of those that we brought now are lost for Mexico. Now they went to other places in the

world. That's real life. That's real competition in the economic arena.

So for revoking or pretending to make trade wars because you have a deficit on the trading with Mexico, first, Mr. Trump has to learn that U.S. economy

has a deficit with every single nation in the world that United States trades with.

So trade is just a part of the chain of how you build up wealth, how you create jobs and this is what United States has done all along.

Mexico imports from United States over $750 billion U.S. dollars every year. We import. We buy from United States. That means over 10 million

jobs for U.S. citizens. So you don't lose jobs by trading. You gain jobs, you gain wealth, and you gain opportunities to your people.

AMANPOUR: Mr. President, what would happen if NAFTA was scrapped?

FOX: Mexico will have to find new friends. And there are a lot of great friends around the world, like China, like Japan, like Asia, like Latin

America, where Mexico can do business.

If United States would not like to do business with Mexico, we can do it somewhere else. The loser is going to be United States.

Imagine, if there is no NAFTA and Trump taxes automobiles coming from Mexico, from anywhere in the world by 40 percent as he mentioned, you that

are listening to me, you U.S. consumer that are buying a car, a Volkswagen or a GM car are going to pay 40 percent more for it.

Where is the benefit for U.S. citizens with these wrong policies that this guy is proposing?

AMANPOUR: The idea of the wall continues, and it's not just Donald Trump. Even Ted Cruz today said we've got to build a wall.

As we know, deportations of Mexicans and Hispanics have reached a high of some 400,000. And right now, there is a net outflow of Mexicans from the

United States.

So sum up what the immigration situation is on both sides of the Rio Grande.

FOX: The United States has become an elderly population. And that you need young working force to provide the growth of economy that U.S. needs.

So we have to work together to build a future together. Dividing is not the answer. Violent talking, rejecting NATO, accusing Mexicans of being

criminals, it's, it's -- I don't understand why a nation that has been so compassable along a nation that helped to solve the problem in the second

world war with Hitler, a nation that has led this world today is isolating, today is building walls. That is absolutely unbelievable happening today.

Please, United States, wake up.

AMANPOUR: Mr. President, thank you for joining us from Mexico this evening.

FOX: Thank you to you, to CNN by being open and being plural. That's very important in politics. Thank you.


AMANPOUR: Well, one Donald Trump wall is already finished, this one built by an artist around Trump's star on the Hollywood walk of fame.

But when it comes to keeping people out, Donald Trump's running mate, Mike Pence, described how his state had rejected Syrians seeking refuge from

their war.


[14:20:00] MIKE PENCE (R), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: In Indiana, we suspended the Syrian refugee program in the wake of a terrorist attack. We

have no higher priority than the safety and security of the people of this country.


AMANPOUR: Now, Syrian refugees, according to the Department of Homeland Security, are amongst the most highly vetted of any in the United States.

So next, we're going to see just how these refugees impacted the safety and security of the state that did take them in from the cold.


AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine finding a new world where you can escape a nightmarish life.

Cleveland has a significant Arab immigrant population, including 209 Syrian refugees who arrived in Ohio this year. But for most Syrians coming to

America is an impossible dream. Around 8,000 have made it into the country since their war started back in 2011.

Our Richard Roth met some of the lucky few who did make it out to Connecticut.


RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Crossing this suburban street in Connecticut is far more tranquil for Jamana (ph) and her three

children than the path from Syria to the United States.

Bisham (ph) and his family also recently arrived on the run from Syria through Turkey.

They miss homemade Syrian ice cream, but they finally feel safe.

A new country and new experiences.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I like America so much. I really wish to thank America for opening its arms for us and embracing us.

ROTH: Here just ducks quacking, no barrel bombs.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Planes, we saw killing, we saw dead bodies. A lot of destruction.

ROTH: The only loud noise Jamana's (ph) husband now hears is from his tools, working part-time at a garage repairing cars.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I wish my kids here a better life, living here and school and education.

ROTH: The Syrians could not survive here without a system of volunteers and family co-sponsors from churches and non-profit agencies.




there's any other place outside of Canada, where the community interest in welcoming refugees has been so strong.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a calendar.

ROTH: The biggest challenge is not speaking English. Bisham (ph) and his wife join other Syrians going back to school.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's going from Arabic to this alphabet.

ROTH: It's starting a life from scratch.

Bisham's (ph) 7-year-old daughter is ahead of her father.

Jimana's (ph) family just arrived in America on June 7th after several years in a refugee camp and government housing. Getting picked to come

here is like winning the lottery.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): When I found my name, I agreed to it. I was so happy.

ROTH: Not everybody in the United States, though, is putting out the welcome mat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I know that there are millions of Muslims who live here just fine. The American people should have no fear

of us. There's no reason to be afraid of us.

ROTH: The incoming Syrians said they are rigorously vetted. Hashim (ph) said he went through ten interviews with mostly American examiners.

However, Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump has vowed to bar Muslims from entering the USA.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): With all respect to Donald Trump, what he's saying is wrong. We, the Muslims, don't do anything, any such a

thing like this. If any group does it, that doesn't mean it's all Muslims.

[14:25:07] ROTH: The United States has pledged to accept 100,000 refugees, including some from Syria. But 30 Republican U.S. state governors have

made clear they don't want any.

This Syrian family was rejected by the Midwest state of Indiana and its governor, Mike Pence, Trump's vice presidential pick, but they were

accepted by the governor of Connecticut who was honored recently by the John F. Kennedy library with its 2016 profile and courage award.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Governor Malloy. You allowed my family to start a new life in America.

ROTH: The Connecticut governor says suspicion and fear are misplaced.

GOV. DANNEL MALLOY (D), CONNECTICUT: I think it's a national embarrassment. We're far more likely to be killed by a domestic individual

deranged buying a gun today in a gun store than we are by any refugee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We saw the horrible pictures last fall. I just said one day to myself, something has to be done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is the triangle? That's this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Once people have personal connection with this family or any other family, your whole view changes and you realize that these are

regular people.

ROTH: A future that has begun with an American helping hand, even when you don't expect it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm the owner of (INAUDIBLE). I appreciate you coming down here and get some ice cream. And welcome to America. Here's a gift

certificate for some ice cream sometime.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much.


ROTH: Richard Roth, CNN, Connecticut.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pretty family, thank you.


AMANPOUR: And a great look at our better angels.

And that is it for our program tonight. Remember, you can always listen to our podcast, see us online at and follow me on Facebook and

Twitter. Thanks for watching, and good-bye from Cleveland.