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Third Eye Blind Band Upsets RNC; Ted Cruz Refuses To Endorse Donald Trump; The GOP Explodes Forward; Interview with Pastor Darrel Scott on Politics and Race Relations. Aired 2-3a ET

Aired July 21, 2016 - 02:00   ET



DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, that is the reason we are playing that, right? The delegates booing Ted Cruz tonight. They are not the only unhappy republican audience around here. This is CNN Tonight. I am Don Lemon. I want to bring in Stephan Jenkins right now, the lead singer guitarist with the band, Third Eye Blind who also upset some RNC delegates.

Also here with me my political dream team, Andy Dean is playing air guitar. Hey Stephan, thank you for joining us. How are you doing tonight?

STEPHAN JENKINS, SINGER AND GUITARIST, THIRD EYE BLIND BAND: Don, it's such a great cost(ph). Just the--just the way you knit those two things together, masterful. Masterful.


LEMON: Thanks and we're so happy to have you here.

JENKINS: You guys must be so touchy right now.

LEMON: Oh my gosh, we're in a bar, people are drinking. It's, you know, it's 2 a.m. You performed at the Rock "N Roll thing in Cleveland just last night.


LEMON: Go ahead.

JENKINS: We just played a show and so I just left the after show to checkout(ph) with you guys.

LEMON: How cool. A lot of people in that audience at the Security Event, they weren't happy. They weren't pleased with your commentary during the show because you spoke about tolerance, gay rights, and science. Tell me what happened.

JENKINS: We were playing a benefit last night for Musicians On Call, which is a organization that we support that brings musicians into hospitals to treat kids who are still in their beds with music and we were a little bit concerned about doing it because it was in Cleveland, but we were sure this was a nonpartisan event.

When the room started to fill up with the blazers and pearls, we felt like we were getting painted with the RNC brush and I just pointed out that that's not what we were about and that we--we were really there about Musicians On Call and then I sort of taunted with the song.

LEMON: Yes, that's what happened.


LEMON: Let me play a little bit of your performance from last night before we talk more.

JENKINS: Go, Don. Sorry?



JENKINS: Boom, like my cousins, who are gay, into the American Fabric. To take this song is to take it into your heart the message and to actually, actually have a feeling to rise and move forward and not live your life in fear and opposing that fear on other people.


JENKINS: I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend. You could cut ties --


JENKINS: You can boo all you want, but I'm the mother(CENSORED) artist up here.



LEMON: Wow Stephan that was kind of tense. Go ahead. What happened there?

JENKINS: Just that, you know, and I mean -- the thing about this stuff is like talking about -- talking about, you know, did Pest give somebody an air kiss or did Cruz endorse or not. What this does is it just kind of only skates the actual issues where actually talking about that platform, that republican platform, which I think is a caveman's manifesto and if we could get away from all these kinds of, like, this surface sort of name-calling stuff you could get down to the -- to try to find the actual issues.

The real issue tonight, their candidate said that he would not defend our natal allies at a night they were talking about rejecting American strength. That's the issue and all this stuff just gets -- all this stuff just comes on top of it. I mean that is kind of my takeaway for being one night away from this. You know, tonight we played a show. We played a big sold out show and I looked out at the audience and there are people on the left, people on the right, black, white, straight, gay, and there is a unifying moment where people come out of themselves and they join together around music. And that environment that we were in tonight allowed for that to happen.

The one that I was dealing with last night was not and I was just kind of -- I think that you should be, like, true to yourself. You've got to clarify your intentions and where you're at and that's what I was doing. I like republicans. My mother is a republican and I've got lots of republican friends. This isn't about like--this isn't about like, you know, popularity or like, I don't know, this kind of "this or that' thing.

But, what we're not down with is the platform that they were selling and that is what I was trying to call out last night. And where did they get, let me talk to you about it Don.

LEMON: Let me read you a statement and then I'll let you continue, because the band released a statement.


LEMON: And it says, "We did not play an RNC event. We performed at a benefit for Musicians On Call because we support their mission in bringing music to the bedsides of patients in hospitals. Given that the benefit was held in Cleveland we suspected that convention types might show up and we let it be known we were there to support Musicians On Call and that we in fact reputed every last stich of the RNC platform and the grotesque that is their nominee. Science is science, Coal is not clean, black lives matter, LGBDQ equals equal, and separation of Church and State."

Do you--so if you weren't there to -- do you think that was being political by even just making that statement?

JENKINS: Yes, but I think that music is political and that when you are in that environment being passive is also political. That remaining passive in situations where your painted -- being painted by somebody else's brush is a move of non-action. And that is a statement in itself. So better to actually lay down what you're about, don't you think?

LEMON: I missed the last part, say again.

JENKINS: You asked me if it's political. What I'm saying is that music is political, that Third Eye Blind's music is always -- that the framework from which it comes has always been a progressive bend, but one that is inclusive to all people. When you're in a situation like that, if you are passive and say nothing that is also a political statement. Either way you're making a statement. You make a statement by non-action or action and I would rather do one that is actually true to me so that I'm eligible to transfer to other people.

I think that just makes sense. LEMON: Stephan Jenkins, thank you so much for coming on at this late

hour. We appreciate it. We're going to discuss what you said later so if you want to stick around a listen to it you can but I got to get to a break, but thank you. I appreciate it.

JENKINS: Thank you for having me, Don. Have a great night.

LEMON: All right, you too. We'll be right back. Live from Cleveland we'll discuss this and more.


LEMON: All right, Donald Trump promises that this convention would not be boring and boy he's right. He was right. Outraged delegates trying to shout down Ted Cruz as he fails to endorse Trump in his speech, saying "Vote your conscience.' And there is even more turmoil behind the scenes. I'm going to go now to CNN's Manu Raju's on the convention floor. He has been following this for us.

Manu, there was a moment last night. I want you to listen.


SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: The case we have to make to the American people, the case each person in this room has to make to the American people is to commit to each of them that we will defend freedom and be faithful to the constitution.

We will unite the party. We will unite the country by standing together for shared values, by standing for liberty. God bless each and every one of you, and God bless the United States of America.


LEMON: So Manu, I want you to tell me how Trump supporters, how people were reacting because I read something from you earlier. You were saying that Heidi Cruz had to be escorted out by security because people were so angry.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes, it was a really tense scene, Don. We were standing right next to Heidi Cruz here on the convention floor and immediately afterwards she was approached by Ken Cuccinelli who is a Virginia republican and an ally of Cruz, came over they started conferring, people were shouting at her, someone yelling that 'Goldman sucks' in a very aggressive manner, of course the place where she works and two security personnel came up to Heidi Cruz to escort her out because Cuccinelli told me later there were concerns over her safety.

Now throughout this speech it got more and more tense as Ted Cruz refused to give that endorsement of Donald Trump. Really the only time he even mentioned Donald Trump was at the top when he congratulated Donald Trump for winning the nomination, but as he refused to say more about him and instead talked about the Republican Party agenda and his conservative agenda folks got more angry. There were shouts of "Lie and Ted.' There were boos. There were--

people was chanting "Trump! Trump! Trump!' And trying to drown out Ted Cruz's speech and they effectively did that and it was really just a surreal moment. It showcased a lot of division in the party and interestingly, afterwards a lot of backlash from Ted Cruz. Not just from Trump supporters, but also form big donors. Ted Cruz afterwards tried to go to Sheldon Adelson, the billionaire donor Swed, here in the Q center and Adelson rescinded his invitation. Would not let him come into his suite and talk to Ted Cruz because of his frustration with Cruz's refusal to endorse Donald Trump, Don.

LEMON: Yes, and there is a picture of him and Sheldon Adelson suite tonight. You know he's not a well-liked guy in the Senate, but he had a lot of supporters on the floor, Manu. What were they saying?

RAJU: You know, there were a lot of folks cheering. There clearly were a mix of cheers and boos. But, there were more boos and what was pretty remarkable here Don is that we really thought that the convention activists and the delegates were sort of in Ted Cruz's mold. They were his sort of party people, activist-types. But that really was not the case.

There were far more Trump supporters than there were Cruz supporters. So clearly they were drowned out while some may be happy with Ted Cruz holding endorsement. The crowd certainly was not.

LEMON: Yes, thank you Manu Raju on the convention floor. Very packed convention floor. Kidding Manu. Thank you very much.


I want to bring in my political dream team, Mark Preston, Kayleigh McEnany, Bakari Sellers, Amanda Carpenter, and Andy Dean. LEMON: Mark, your reaction was really blistering. I mean he's literally having - now let me just -- physically having doors slammed in his face now.

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: Right, and so the question is, you know, coming into this we weren't quite sure what Ted Cruz was going to do, if he was going to go over his speech. We all -- most of us had seen the speech beforehand. I think -- we didn't think it was going to go over like the lead balloon that it has. However, just like we had the Melania incident last Monday, the hour -- you know we were there and are before. The situation we're in right now, let's talk about the long run.

I don't necessarily think that this is going to be fatal to Ted Cruz's political career. Ted Cruz is going to run in 2020, Ted Cruz is still going to have supporters and, quite frankly, if Donald Trump does lose there is the possibility that people are going to rally back to Ted Cruz. He still has core supporters and I don't think we should dismiss them.

LEMON: What happens if Donald Trump wins?

PRESTON: Well, then you know what Ted Cruz will be, could be his biggest enemy in the United States Senate because he still holds an incredible amount of power in the U.S. Senate.

LEMON: Do you agree?

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Ted Cruz isn't changing regardless if Trump wins or loses. I mean what his message there was this isn't about a person, it's about our principles. I mean the fact that the Trump supporters booed voting your conscience and the constitution is very revealing. I mean that is a bad optic moment.

No that moment's--

LEMON: Not to you Amanda. Hold on Andy.

CARPENTER: Years from now.

LEMON: I have to say, when you look at this policy thing, people come on and they slam someone the next then they're the best person in the world. Actually I mean for Ted Cruz and I don't necessarily agree with anything he said, but just the whole principle of it, for someone to get up there and say how they really feel and not say "Oh I'm not going to do this to the party for me."


LEMON: I thought it took some backbone to do that.

MCENANY: But Don, Don that makes it so inauthentic because I looked up all the times that Ted Cruz has praised Donald Trump. In June, he called him "Great.' He called him "Fantastic.' He said he's a great voice for this party. He said his business experience is going to help this party. They were staunch allies for four months and then --


PRESTON: That was before he said his wife --

LEMON: That was --


MCENANY: But, but let's be clear that Ted Cruz based his argument tonight on constitutional conservatism. Well Donald Trump's record is out there. If he truly believes in constitutional conservatism, don't praise him for four months. It's inauthentic.

LEMON: Let's look at how we got here. Watch this.


UNKNOWN MALE: Well I think in terms of a Commander-in-Chief, we ought to have someone who isn't springing out of bed to tweet in a frantic response to the latest polls.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: He is like a little baby. Soft, weak, little baby by comparison. But the lying, he's the best I've ever seen. He's the best.

CRUZ: Yet another temper tantrum or if you like yet another Trumper tantrum.

TRUMP: Lying Ted Cruz.

CRUZ: Donald, you're a sniffling coward and leave Heidi the hell alone.

TRUMP: But he's a cheater. He's a cheater. He's a dirty, rotten cheat. He was a failed senator. He couldn't get anything passed.

CRUZ: This man is a pathological liar. He lies, practically every word that comes out of his mouth. A narcissist at a level I don't think this country has ever seen. The man is utter a moron.


LEMON: So why would anyone get on stage and say, "Oh my god, I love this guy. He should be president of the United States"?

PRESTON: No, no, no. We all agree he shouldn't even come to this place.

SELLERS: I agree.

CARPENTER: He was invited. Why did Trump give him the opportunity?

PRESTON: Well because he was trying to go off against him.

MCENANY: No, he should have known better.

LEMON: Well here it is. Here is Paul Manafort, the campaign manager.


UNKNOWN MALE: Were you disappointed that he didn't (inaudible)?

PAUL MANAFORT, TRUMP CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN: Donald Trump felt all the candidates should have an opportunity to speak. He gave them all. Some of them couldn't make it and Rubio sent a video.

UNKNOWN MALE: The Cruz campaign says Trump made the call two days ago that he would not endorse. Is that accurate?


UNKNOWN FEMALE: Such a coveted prime time stop, is that a mistake?

MANAFORT: Donald Trump felt he finished second and he should have a good spot. I mean Donald Trump was trying to unify the party and he's done that. I think not withstanding what Senator Cruz said tonight. The party came together.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: All right look, I know that was hard for me to hear so I have the verbatim here. "We were disappointed he didn't say something more positive, but you know we didn't have any commitment. We didn't ask for any commitments. Donald Trump has felt all the candidates who ran should have an opportunity to speak and he gave all of them. Walker, Rubio, couldn't make it. We played the video. Cruz could have played video as he said.

Cruz called Trump two days ago to say we wouldn't endorse. Is that accurate? And he said, that is not accurate. Was it a mistake to give him a prime time slot? Mr. Trump felt he'd finished second and should have a good spot so he did.

Donald Trump was trying to unify the party and he's done that, and I think not withstanding what Senator Cruz said tonight, the party came together."

That's it.


PRESTON: That's an overstatement.

SELLERS: Just because Donald Trump says it doesn't necessarily mean it's actually true. I mean, I think we saw Monday night with the little riffraff that happened on the floor. I think we saw tonight Ted Cruz. I mean, anybody who -- and Ted Cruz -- and to be honest you look at the numbers and only 67 percent of republicans say they actually support Donald Trump right now.

So I mean to say the party is unified is definitely an overstatement, and to say that is unified when they had questions about Donald Trump coming into the convention, after this convention there is one saving grace. I don't have any faith in it, but there is one saving grace and that is Donald Trump gets to save his own behind tomorrow night.

I don't have any faith that he will do anything he hasn't done in the past one year and one month, but if Donald Trump comes out tomorrow and all of a sudden looks like Ronald Reagan, which he's never done in his life then we might have a race, but if Donald Trump looks like a reflection of the past three days then God bless Hillary Clinton.

LEMON: Donald Trump tweeted tonight saying that this was not a big deal. We can put the tweet up. He said, you know, "I saw the speech two hours before. Wanted to give him a chance. It's no big deal."

Did it end up being a big deal?

DEAN: Not a big deal in the sense that Trump has never been traditional in getting endorsements. Throughout the entire primary season he wasn't an endorsement guy and I just don't think it's going to bear much weight. Plus Ted Cruz, when you look at his electoral map and the states he actually won, it's almost exactly the same as Rick Santorum in 2012.

And Santorum tried to continue his career four years later and he doesn't have a political career. So four years from now I think Ted Cruz is the regional candidate that Rick Santorum once was.

PRESTON: No, no, no, no.

MCENANY: And now the conservatives mantle on --

PRESTON: There is a cross semblancy in the --

DEAN: Why? Why?

PRESTON: --Is that Rick Santorum is not in the United States Senate. He was ending his career in the United State Senate. Ted Cruz is going to win. He will win.

DEAN: The Electoral Map was the same. They were very similar.

PRESTON: Ted Cruz does have a political career. He still has one

DEAN: Yes, but not a winning one.

MCENANY: But I think Mike Pence really picked up the mantle of conservatism.


MCENANY: He gave a really great speech. It was positive. It was humble. People loved it. That focus group that John Berman did at 20 voters(ph). Really interesting things came out first. They said that they would never vote for Ted Cruz, those 20 voters. They said that they were not moved to Donald Trump, but they unanimously agreed that they liked Mike Pence. Mike Pence now holds the mantle of conservatism.

CARPENTER: But he doesn't --

MCENANY: Ted Cruz lost his tonight and he lost more members for it.

LEMON: Nobody's talking about Pence right now.

MCENANY: But people at home saw it.

LEMON: It's not even the media. As I walked here everyone was like "Cruz! Cruz! Oh my gosh, we're under Cruz!'

SELLERS: -- his own Vice-President. Tonight Mike Pence's message on foreign policy was we have to be there to support our friends and allies. And in the morning, you're going to read an article in the New York Times that says that "We're not going to show up from Donald Trump for our natal allies.'

MCENANY: If they don't have -- abide by their tenants.

LEMON: We'll be right back. From The Grill. We'll let them talk.


LEMON: So much for GOP Unity. Ted Cruz refusing to endorse Donald Trump in his convention speech and getting booed by angry delegates.

[02:30:00] I want to bring in someone who did not get booed and that's Pastor Darrel Scott, he's a supporter. And back with me, of course, my political dream team as well. You were good.

DARREL SCOTT, PASTOR & TRUMP SUPPORTER: Thanks man, appreciate that.

LEMON: Do you know that? I think you got the biggest applause tonight, even bigger than that guy, what's his name, who's running for president? Mike?

SCOTT: The boss.

LEMON: The boss? Let's play a little bit and then we'll talk about it.

SCOTT: I can think of no stronger leader who will place their left hand on a bible that they believe in, raise their right hand and solemnly swear to faithfully execute the office of president of the United States and to the best of his ability preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the United States than Donald J. Trump! Come on!

LEMON: Well. Oh, lord, you were preaching.


LEMON: How'd you feel?

SCOTT: That's what I do every week. They tried to, you know, assign me a speechwriter. I said, man, I have speeches every week. I don't need a speechwriter.

SELLERS: Wait a minute.

SCOTT: I mean no brag, just a fact.

SELLERS: No, no, no. They didn't approve your speech?

SCOTT: They didn't tweak it.

LEMON: Did you plagiarize?

SCOTT: A little bit from the bible, maybe some from the constitution ...


SCOTT: ... I plagiarized the pledge of allegiance and then I took some from the bible.

LEMON: You got cheers. Ted Cruz got boos. What was your reaction to that huge moment?

SCOTT: Can I be frank?

LEMON: Yeah.

SCOTT: Ted Cruz is a clown and he did what clowns do. He's a clown. I mean, why would you do some classless, tasteless, suicidal stupid stuff like that for? I mean, to be honest.


SCOTT: Yes. I mean, that was stupid. I mean, I don't understand. You know what it was? It was a subliminal message because remember during his campaign when he was mano e mano with Trump, he would say vote your conscience. Grandpa Muster would say, vote your conscience.

LEMON: Are you calling me a grandpa?

SCOTT: Yes. I'm calling therefore, it's your grandpa must and I'm not going to call Paul Ryan Eddie. But remember, he kept saying vote your conscience?

LEMON: Right.

SCOTT: So he's trying to subliminally put that message over. What he's saying was, "Don't vote for Donald Trump." And that was classless.

LEMON: But that's what I was saying, on paper, you may not have caught that. I'm just, you know, maybe I'm not giving him enough credit but if you just read it off the paper and you saw, vote your conscience, you wouldn't, until he actually delivered it up there, you said it was subliminal. I think that you're on to something.

SCOTT: Yeah. He was trying to subliminally influence the crowd to not support Donald Trump.

LEMON: Would you support him as a future Republican candidate?

SCOTT: Who? Ted Cruz? I wouldn't have supported him if he didn't do that. He comes across as fake.

MCENANY: I mean you even had members of the Texas delegation, Dana Bash was out there, they were clad in Ted Cruz paraphernalia, the Texas delegates and then they said, we hope our candidate who we supported endorses Donald Trump because believe it or not, there are a lot of Republicans who really want to beat Hillary Clinton and you do that by supporting Donald Trump. It's a binary choice. It's pretty simple.

SCOTT: But here's the part that I don't like. John Kasich, Ted Cruz, they used their Christianity as part of their platform, and you flat- out lied. You signed a pledge, your Christianity, your pledge ...

CARPENTER: No it wasn't a pledge to god. It was a pledge to the RNC.

SCOTT: It doesn't matter ...

CARPENTER: You don't think the situation's changed?


CARPENTER: No. I want to ask you something. Because Donald Trump said some really awful things but I don't think ...

SELLERS: That wasn't Christian.

CARPENTER: ... men of good character and standing should stand by. Just anything that Donald Trump has said ...

SCOTT: He didn't break his word.

CARPENTER: Donald Trump didn't even want to sign that pledge.

SCOTT: But he signed it. And the pledge was -- the pledge was ...


CARPENTER: ... this pledge on paper is more important than calling someone a liar?

LEMON: He also threatened not to abide by the pledge too but even later on ...

SCOTT: He just said, I want to be treated fairly, that's all.

LEMON: OK. But he said if he didn't -- but what does fairly mean?

SCOTT: Would you say this ...

LEMON: That's subjective.

SCOTT: Would you say this ...

LEMON: That's subjective.

SCOTT: Would you say this -- yes, you're right. That's subjective but would you say this. That pledge was targeted against Donald Trump because they were afraid that he might try to do a third party ...


SCOTT: So they did the pledge.


SCOTT: So they did the pledge, specifically targeted the pledge against him, and it bit them in the butt.

CARPENTER: But if you have legitimate concerns after you've learned more about Donald Trump, about how he would act as a commander in chief, do you think upholding a pledge to a political party is more important than warning people about the dangers ...

SCOTT: Then don't sign it in the first place.

(CROSSTALK) CARPENTER: But you didn't know everything about Trump.

SCOTT: If you're -- they -- look, we know more about Trump than we know about them.

SELLERS: Can I just say something?

SCOTT: Come on.

SELLERS: I mean, using Christianity to protect a lot of the verbiage, a lot of the vitriol -- I'm not done yet, a lot of the divisiveness that Donald Trump has espoused throughout the campaign sounds a bit hypocritical.

SCOTT: I'm not trying to do that.

SELLERS: That's what you just said.

SCOTT: What I said was, Ted Cruz ...

MCENANY: He's talking about the pledge.

SCOTT: ... Ted Cruz ...

SELLERS: So Ted Cruz is ...

SCOTT: ... and John Kasich campaigned on, they used Christianity as a major part of their campaign. I'm the Christian, he's not.

CARPENTER: But we don't judge other people like that.

[02:35:00] SELLERS: But because Christianity was not a pillar of Donald Trump's campaign, it's OK if he strays from it?

SCOTT: When did he stray from it.

SELLERS: We can go down the litany of whether or not he was talking about Megyn Kelly or whether or not he was talking about women on this side or that side ...

LEMON: That's why he was ...

SELLERS: Yes, I mean ...

SCOTT: Did he break his word?

SELLERS: Is that your only -- I mean is that ...

SCOTT: That's the topic that we're talking about. We're not going down the line and naming everything Donald Trump did. We're talking about ...


LEMON: One at a time, one at a time.

SCOTT: ... and that was the pledge because Ted Cruz ...

SELLERS: His campaign ...

SCOTT: He didn't sign the pledge.


SELLERS: His campaign broke his word on the first night.

SCOTT: He lied ...

SELLERS: You know what they did? They lied to the American public because they plagiarized and then they lied about it.

SCOTT: Who plagiarized?

SELLERS: You didn't get the memo?

SCOTT: No, I watched the video of Barack Obama plagiarizing.

SELLERS: He did not ...


LEMON: There we go. Let's go back to 2008.


MCENANY: It's so rich to me when I hear Hillary Clinton surrogates about lies when ...


LEMON: But hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.


SELLERS: I get it. No, no, no. I thought your speech was great tonight. I was very, very proud. I mean, I have to give you that. But I kind of have a question though.

SCOTT: Come on.

SELLERS: I mean because one of the things that's been going on amongst African-Americans in this country right now, we're having a serious discussion about criminal justice reform and I felt like you, in that position had an awesome opportunity to lay out Donald Trump's criminal justice reform plan and you ...

SCOTT: That wasn't my place to do that. It's Donald Trump's place to lay out his criminal justice ...


SELLERS: What is it?

SCOTT: We're discussing things with him now.

SELLERS: What is it?

SCOTT: I know the reason they're in this because ...

SELLERS: What is it?

SCOTT: Wait a minute, why do we need the reform?

SELLERS: What is it?

SCOTT: Why do we need the reform? Because Hillary and Bill locked us up.

SELLERS: Answer the question, what does Donald Trump ...

SCOTT: That's not my place to tell you about Donald Trump's -- what's Hillary's?

SELLERS: Oh, we can go -- military ...

SCOTT: What's it, lock up black folks?

SELLERS: No, it's not. It's de-escalation ..


LEMON: Wait, one at a time.


LEMON: Let him answer it, let him answer it. Pastor, pastor ...


SELLERS: Well then, why don't we talk about unraveling mass incarceration, why don't we talk about implicit bio-screening, why don't we talk about de-escalation, why don't we talk about demilitarizing our law enforcement, why don't we talk about community policing?

SCOTT: Those are your issues tonight?

SELLERS: No. Those are her ...


SCOTT: I wasn't standing up there to represent the black race. I was standing up there to endorse Donald Trump. I didn't endorse on behalf of the black race. I endorsed on my behalf.

SELLERS: That's fine but I'm just saying ...


SCOTT: ... so I don't have to stand up ... SELLERS: There are issues that directly affect ...

SCOTT: One person's passion is not enough.

SELLERS: That's not one person's passion ...

SCOTT: ... both my brothers been in the penitentiary both my nephew's were ...

SELLERS: Well then you should inspect that from Donald Trump.

SCOTT: I shouldn't do nothing.

SELLERS: That's a problem.

SCOTT: I shouldn't do nothing to think about ...

SELLERS: That's a problem.

SCOTT: ... criminals in my family?

SELLERS: That's a problem.

SCOTT: It's not a problem.

SELLERS: If you can't hold Donald Trump to a standard, will you think that he can represent people who ...


SCOTT: ... but what good did it do? That didn't do no good. They're locking them up.

SELLERS: ... because I can hold her accountable for mass incarceration. I can hold her accountable for the ...


SCOTT: What if you held her accountable, what did it achieve?


SELLERS: You know what her first speech was?

SCOTT: What did it achieve?

SELLERS: You can't name what Donald Trump's criminal justice ...

SCOTT: Well because I don't have to name.

SELLERS: ... because it's nonexistent.

SCOTT: It's Donald Trump's ...

LEMON: Hang on. OK. Hold on, hold on, hold on. You don't have to but honestly, do you know what it is? Does he have -- does he have a platform?

SCOTT: He's working on one.

SELLERS: That's upsetting. That's absurd.

SCOTT: You know what else? We're even working on one to reintegrate ex-felons back into America. We have a program ...

SELLERS: He's just working on that?

SCOTT: We have a program to re -- is Donald Trump president?

SELLERS: And thank god, no.

SCOTT: Is he?


SCOTT: So he can't implement it anyway.

SELLERS: But he can have a plan.

LEMON: Stand by. Hold on. Pause, pause, pause, pause, we're coming back with these two, and I'm getting some popcorn.



LEMON: Back now with Pastor Darrel Scott, a Trump supporter and Bakari's in this corner -- in the blue corner.

CARPENTER: And I'm ducking.

LEMON: Bakari Sellers. In the red corner, we've got Pastor Darrel Scott. But seriously, so, I thought a good question that you answered somewhat but you guys were kind of talking over each other. Do you feel any obligation as an African-American to talk about the issue of criminal justice reform or anything like that ...

SCOTT: Actually, we have a lot of ...

LEMON: ... when you're up on that stage tonight?

SCOTT: Well on the stage, they give you a certain amount of time and they tweak what you're going to say and I had to stay on point but one thing I didn't want to do was deviate from what they asked me to do.

They asked me to do what I did and I did it. But that wasn't my platform ...

LEMON: But some of the other speakers talked about that.

SCOTT: That wasn't -- maybe that was part of their format. I wasn't there for that purpose. But I will say this, we've had a number of meetings with Mr. Trump and in those meetings we discussed issues that are, (Jermane) to the African-American community.

You know, we've discussed Black Lives Matter in that. We've discussed police shootings way back in last November. You know what he said? He said something I thought was very insightful from him. And this was almost a close to a year ago. He said, I wonder why the police are shooting to kill rather than shooting to wound if they feel that the use of deadly force is necessary.

And so we had that discussion with him and I thought that it was very insightful for him to say that, that if you feel that deadly force is necessary, why shoot to kill? Shoot to wound.

SELLERS: That doesn't make any sense. I mean, if you feel deadly force is necessary, you use deadly force. But I think ,you know, more importantly, I mean, I -- but what the problem is ...

SCOTT: Don't just tell me what I said don't make sense. It does make sense.

SELLERS: The problem that I think we have ...

SCOTT: Ever crime does not require death. So don't say that.


SELLERS: I think that's the point ...

SCOTT: You shoot to disable.

SELLERS: I mean, if you're going to use deadly force, use deadly force but my point of the ...

SCOTT: So you're saying that the police should kill black people?

SELLERS: Not at all.

SCOTT: OK. Then what did you just say?

LEMON: Let him say it. Let him say it.

SELLERS: I'm actually telling you, I think African-American's deserve the benefit of their humanity and I don't think that there needs to be any shooting whatsoever. I think that the fact that ...

SCOTT: But if that does ...

SELLERS: They need to de-escalate the situation because you have people like ...

LEMON: Let him finish.


SCOTT: If the police officer feels that deadly force is necessary.

LEMON: Let him finish. SELLERS: And if -- that's what I'm saying. I'm saying that you have

incidents like Dylan Roof for example, that is the clearest example I can point, who just murdered nine people who the officers knew was strapped and they pulled up on him and they arrested him without incident but you have Alton Sterling who was selling CDs, had been selling CDs before who ended up dead.

I mean, this goes on and on and on. But my challenge is not just to you by any stretch because, you know, it takes a lot to go up there in front of 20 million people and deliver a speech and knock it home and have people cheering and chanting your name. But I just think we have a responsibility that's larger than that because I think that there has to be a message about how you uplift communities of people of color. That's all I'm saying.

LEMON: Go ahead.

SCOTT: That might be true but tonight wasn't the night for that.

SELLERS: That's fair.

SCOTT: And that's all it was.

SELLERS: That's fair but if you can promise us ...

SCOTT: That was not the purpose of the platform. And with me pastoring a church and knowing about having crowds and having someone and giving somebody the microphone and asking them to do a specific duty, you don't take advantage of that. You do what you're supposed to do.

SELLERS: ... that there's going to be a plan for criminal justice reform, if there's going to be a plan where you re -- where you reinvigorate and pump economic stimuluses into urban communities ...

SCOTT: No. We talked ...


SELLERS: ... if you can do that because we haven't seen that yet.


SCOTT: Actually, he's talking about providing tax incentives for businesses to relocate into the inner cities.

[02:45:02] LEMON: Here's a thing, when you hear -- we've heard from so many speakers that have come out there that said, you know, blue lives matter. Of course blue lives matter. We know that. But they think that -- it's mutually exclusive. That if you say black lives matter, then you mean blue lives don't matter. Then you mean other lives don't matter and it's ...

SCOTT: You know what I will say? Black lives matter too.

LEMON: Yes. SCOTT: That was what I ...

LEMON: What is so hard to understand ...


SCOTT: ... not black lives matter exclusively but black lives matter ...

LEMON: What is so hard for people to understand? Why do people think if you -- there are bad journalists and you've had bad teachers, there are bad preachers. If you say that there are bad police officers they go, oh my gosh, you're anti-police. I doesn't mean you're anti- police. It means you want to improve police.

So then, why is that -- why do people come to that conclusion mostly among the crowd who is up there? Why do they come to that conclusion? If you criticize police in any then you're anti-police.

SCOTT: No. I just don't think you should generalize.

MCENANY: Yeah, exactly.

SCOTT: I don't think you should generalize and criticize all police and say all police are bad.

LEMON: But no one is saying all police. No one has ever said that.

SCOTT: You know what I think is sad though? You know what I think is sad? I mean, I know the names for about the last eight years of the black people that have been killed by police. I don't know one of those police officers' names. And I mean, that's my part, I'm not blaming but names of the dead police officers aren't as publicized as the names of the dead black guys.

MCENANY: That's exactly right, just like Ferguson, a great example where we rushed to judgment. The president sent the justice department to Ferguson only to find that Darren Wilson was innocent but ...

LEMON: But what does that have to do with -- what does have to -- that has nothing to do with what we're saying.

MCENANY: It has everything to do with what we're saying Don.

LEMON: No, it doesn't. Kayleigh, Kayleigh.


SELLERS: Can I ask a question?

LEMON: Hold on, hold on Bakari.


LEMON: Hold on, hold on. You're giving an extreme example of something that really has nothing to do with what we're saying. The process didn't work in Ferguson. The officer was exonerated. That doesn't mean that there are still aren't departments that need to be cleaned up around the country, Ferguson which is one of them. So you keep giving this example ...

MCENANY: Here is the problem. The highest officer -- the highest law enforcement officer ...

DEAN: He's answering why when we hear black lives matters for other people, it makes us angry, because when you look at, at Ferguson ...

LEMON: Why would it make you angry if someone says a life matters?


LEMON: It shouldn't make you angry that a life matters.

DEAN: Look, of course, all lives matter. What I'm saying is, stop. The language that comes out is so negative towards police and the black lives matters movement, they were so vocal as Ferguson took the side of a bully who bullied a minority shopkeeper, beat up a cop and then got killed because of his own actions and the, "Hands up. Don't shoot" was a lie.


LEMON: You're using the same argument that you're saying that people in black lives matter say about police. And you're saying, OK, you're painting everybody, you're painting the whole movement as negative when you think that the people in black lives matter are painting the whole, all police officers negative and that's not what's happening, you're talking past each other.

DEAN: All lives matter. It's just saying -- we know what you're insinuating ...

LEMON: What are we insinuating again? What are we -- because you're talking ...

DEAN: You're insinuating the black -- that young black men are targets and that the police are racist and they target young black men.

LEMON: Nobody's saying that. That's why you're missing it.


SELLERS: As a young black male, let me tell you what it means so we can have a ...

DEAN: And I'm not a young black male?

SELLERS: No, you're not. So we have an educational moment here because there is a very specific pain that many African-American males -- just people. Cassandra Bland was not an African-American male, I had to say her name as well, that are going through. And you can bring up the example of Ferguson all you want, right?

MCENANY: Not just that. Not just that.

SELLERS: But I can tell you, it's not just Eric Garner. It's not just Walter Scott. It's not just Tamir Rice. The list goes on and on and on.

MCENANY: Look. There are things that need to be looked at. No doubt about it. There are racialists, even our criminal justice is ...

SELLERS: Don't say but. Don't say but because ...

MCENANY: But when you have people taking to the streets yelling, we want dead cops and then a week later -- no let me finish.

SELLERS: Is it racist because ...

MCENANY: Please Bakari, let me finish my point.

SELLERS: Please, go ahead.

MCENANY: You have them chanting, a whole group of people, we want dead cops, and one week later, Wenjin Liu dies along with his partner, dies, slaughtered, assassinated. You have them yelling, pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon, a group of people shouting this.

And then you have police officer Bud killed on the streets. All lives matter, black lives matter, white lives matter, all lives matter. All lives.

SELLERS: We don't have a question right now about the value of young white males' lives in this country, but there is a serious question about the value of young black males.

MCENANY: And police lives.

SELLERS: And you know what's amazing about that?

DEAN: Nobody's questioning those lives.

SELLERS: Yes, they are.

DEAN: Who?

SELLERS: Every single day because of the simple fact, they don't get the benefit of their humanity because you can go out there and you -- there are many things that you can do and get shot while being black in this country. And that is a point and that is a fact.


SCOTT: If all this was happening under eight years of a Trump organization -- a Trump administration, we'd be blaming it on him. Obama's getting the pass and you know it.

SELLERS: Explain that. Say more, you just can't say that. He doesn't address it.

SCOTT: Let me tell you something ...


SCOTT: All the stuff you all read about in the history books, I lived it. I was born in the '50s. I was raised in the '60s. My bad first experience with police was getting beat up by cops when I was 11 years old.

[02:50:04] So all the stuff you all read about, I lived thorough it and I'm saying the same conditions being repeated now under this Democratic administration.

In the '60s blacks couldn't get an education, blacks couldn't get jobs, blacks were riding in the streets and blacks were getting beat up by the police. And here it is, 2016, blacks can't get jobs, graduation rate's lowest it's been since 1963. We're getting beat up by the police and rioting in the streets with eight years by the democratic administration.

SELLERS: What if I gave you those facts which, I will just give you those facts for the purposes of the discussion because we're running low on time. How is Donald Trump going to fix them? What are his plans?

SCOTT: It's not about Donald Trump.

SELLERS: No it is.

SCOTT: No it's not.

SELLERS: But you just said it.

SCOTT: Listen, listen ...

SELLERS: You just said it.


SCOTT: This is about Barack Obama. This conversation doesn't need to be had with Donald Trump. It needs to be had ...

SELLERS: It has been had with Barack Obama because ...


SELLERS: That's why we're talking about reformative criminal justice systems.

SCOTT: Let me ask you something, why doesn't Barack Obama simply say, why don't y'all stop?

SELLERS: Y'all who?

SCOTT: Y'all black folks just killing people. SELLERS: What are you ...

SCOTT: Listen ...

SELLERS: He'll just say that in front of the world?

SCOTT: Listen, listen, listen, listen, listen.


SCOTT: Why doesn't Barack Obama make it a point to say, I want this to stop?

SELLERS: What to stop?

SCOTT: You know what.

SELLERS: Know what? Tell me. Use your words. What?

LEMON: Tell him.

SELLERS: What? What?

SCOTT: What's been happening in the last two weeks?

SELLERS: What? You act like Barack Obama's been condoning ...

LEMON: Let him talk.

LEMON: Listen, do you see the way Donald Trump does rallies? If I'm Barack Obama, I'm going city to city to city to where I think the hot beds and saying, please let's stop this violence, let's stop confusion, let's stop this disunity, let's stop this -- let's not do this, let's not do this. He's been reactive and not proactive.

SELLERS: He's been very proactive. I mean, Barack Obama is ...

SCOTT: Name one proactive thing he's done.

SELLERS: First of all, Barack Obama has brought these groups together so that we can put together a plan that ...

SCOTT: What groups?

SELLERS: ... the Ferguson commission so that you could talk about ...

SCOTT: What groups has he brought together?

SELLERS: The Ferguson commission.

SCOTT: He brought it together with who?

SELLERS: That is the name of -- that is the commission.

(CROSSTALK) SCOTT: What has it done?

SELLERS: And they actually laid out a plan to reform the ...

SCOTT: And what good did it do?

SELLERS: Well they're implementing that throughout the country.

SCOTT: And what good did it do?

SELLERS: It's doing ...

SCOTT: And so we have a funeral besides dead cops after that huh?

SELLERS: The problem is that you think that l can't pray for them and pray for the people who die in Minneapolis and Baton Rouge.

SCOTT: It's not working.

SELLERS: So what is Donald Trump going to do? Answer the question.

SCOTT: When he's president, we'll find out, what do you mean, answer the question?

SELLERS: What do you mean we'll find out?

SCOTT: I don't speak for everything Donald Trump does.

SELLERS: All right. That's a sad commentary, bro. I got to go, thank you.

SCOTT: I don't speak for everything Donald Trump does ...

LEMON: If you're not up yet watching this show at 2:00 in the morning, you are nothing.

SCOTT: If I got to know everything Donald Trump is going to do, do you know everything Hilary Clinton's going to do? Do you know everything Hilary Clinton's going to do? Do you know everything Hilary Clinton's going to do?

SELLERS: Can I promise you something?

SCOTT: No you don't, so stop.

SELLERS: I'm going to promise you that I'm going to challenge her on issues that is near and dear to my heart, every single thing.

SCOTT: Do you know everything she's going to do?

SELLERS: I know something.

SCOTT: Do you know everything?

LEMON: We'll be right back.


LEMON: We went over the last segment. I'm so sorry. Diamond and Silk are here, the ultimate Trump supporters. What did you love about toning?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: : Well first of all, I love the fact that, you know, our man that just left the stage, he did a phenomenal job, Pastor Darrell Scott.

[02:55:02] I love our future vice president. He did a phenomenal job. I was -- and Eric Trump, oh, my god, a phenomenal job. I see some future politicians in them.

LEMON: What about Ted Cruz?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: : You know what, he really irritated me. You know, I think he's toast, done, finished.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: : He's going mess around and his whole career is going to be over.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don't take -- you don't use Donald Trump's platform at the national -- at the convention to -- I don't know what he's trying to do. Check your ego at the door ...


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... or keep it outside but you don't -- just don't play it out on the national ...

LEMON: We just had a very -- I think a very interesting conversation, a tough conversation but I think, maybe out of this convention, the country will start actually having conversations like this without judging.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, absolutely. We do need to have a conversation.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need to have a serious conversation on both sides of the aisle when it comes to police and when it comes to our black men.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I always say this here, you know, sometimes with the police officers, maybe they tend to overreact because they are afraid, you know, but what we've got to do instead of marching in the streets, let's come to the table. The tables are not out there in the streets, they're inside baby.

LEMON: Thank you, ladies.


LEMON: I appreciate it, Diamond and Silk, always a good time. That's it for us tonight. I'll see you right back here this morning. I'll see you right back here beginning at 1:00 a.m. "EARLY START" with John Berman and Christine Romans right here in Cleveland begins in just a moment. Thank you so much for watching.