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Two New National Polls Show Healthy Clinton Lead; NYPD Commissioner to Retire; Only 12 Percent of Non-White Voters Leaning Towards Trump. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired August 4, 2016 - 23:00   ET


[23:00:26] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: New polls spelling trouble for Donald Trump in his battle with Hillary Clinton. This is "CNN Tonight". I'm Don Lemon. The Democratic Candidate is showing impressive gains in key battleground states over her Republican rival.

CNN's Chief National Correspondent, of course, is John King. He's at the Magic Wall breaking down the numbers for us; John?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Don, two new national polls tonight showing healthy Clinton leads; and, we pick our president state by state, tough news for Donald Trump when you go through those, too.

Midwest battleground, Michigan, a place Donald Trump has said I'd like to compete, might need those electoral votes. Well, look at that; a 9-point Clinton lead in this new "Detroit News" poll in the state of Michigan, one of the battlegrounds trending her way.

Pennsylvania, a state a lot of Republicans think Trump is going to have to win if he's going to be President of the United States, look at that; an 11-point lead for Hillary Clinton in the state of Pennsylvania in the new Franklin and Marshall College poll.

New Hampshire, a smaller battleground state but those four votes can matter in a close election. Boom, look at that; a 14-point lead for Clinton in battleground New Hampshire, 3 for 3 there.

And the fourth one, in Donald Trump's second home state, as he likes to say, Florida, a closer race here, but a 4-point Clinton lead in Florida.

Florida, Michigan, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire; Why is this happening? Let's go behind the numbers a little bit. Let's start in Pennsylvania. Pull these number out. Take a look right here.

One thing we've seen post-convention, and this is pretty consistent, Don, Hillary Clinton has largely consolidated the Democratic Party. She's getting the votes of nearly eight in ten Democrats. Donald Trump still getting the votes of only seven in ten Republicans. So he still has a problem in the Republican Party that's hurting him. Let's set this over here for a minute; I want to come back to something in a second. Let's go back to New Hampshire. We see again similar dynamic. More than 80-percent of Democrats say they're for Clinton, but only 61- percent of Republicans say they're for Trump. A problem in the Republican family, a problem in the poll numbers.

Now let's bring up the Florida numbers as well because it gets a little confusing here, but I'll show you why I have them all up in a minute. Florida is a little closer, and here's one of the reasons: Hillary Clinton does have some problems with Democrats - had, excuse me. She's getting only 74-percent, 71-percent for Trump there. So a bit closer because she has consolidating to do, but look at all these states.

She leads with Independents in Florida. She leads big with Independents in New Hampshire. She leads with Independents in Pennsylvania. That has been a big trend, post-convention. How does this work, Don? Let's flip it over a little bit and change maps here, just want to show you. Remember, we pick presidents state by state.

If Hillary Clinton, based on what we already give her, holds Michigan, which we have leaning blue and wins Pennsylvania, wins Florida and wins New Hampshire, it's more than game over. That is why, even though it's early and it's only August, you start looking at the national polls; then you look at the state-by-state polls. Donald Trump is in a bit of a ditch, Don and you know the first rule of holes, stop digging; Don?

LEMON: John King, thank you very. I want to bring in now Judd Legum, who is the Editor-In-Chief of Thinkprogress," CNN Political Contributor Maria Cardona and - who is a Clinton Supporter, by the way; and Andre Brower, the former Lieutenant Governor of South Carolina, who is a Trump Supporter.

Good evening to all of you. Andre, you first -


LEMON: Tough news for Donald Trump in the battleground states. -- hi, Maria. -- Tough news for Donald Trump in the battleground states and national polls, especially the McClatchy/Marist poll which shows Clinton with a fifteen-point lead, 48 for Clinton 33 for Trump. Is he in trouble, Andre?

ANDRE BAUER, FORMER LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, SOUTH CAROLINA, via satellite: Well, Hillary has had a great week now. She's come out of the convention and she's kept moving forward. She's stayed on message and done a great job of it.

Trump has gotten off message a little bit. He's got to get back on message and really needs to hammer home his ability, over hers, and explain to the American why he can create jobs in a better economic environment than they currently have. He also needs to continue to have this amazing fundraising month that he's had. He needs to have another one so that he can raise - so that he can have the troops out there in those battleground states to actually have a mechanism to get his folks to the polls. He's got to hone back in on a message and right now he's missed some

great opportunities to really put it to Hillary that he hadn't capitalized on.

LEMON: Maria, 96 days is still a long time in politics.


LEMON: What does Hillary Clinton have to do to maintain this lead?

CARDONA: Well, I think, first of all, she's going to continue to do what she has been doing since she and Tim Kaine left Philadelphia, which is to go around to battleground states, to all of the American communities who are really looking to hear what it is that a potential next president is going to do for them. They are talking about bringing back -- continuing to bring [23:05:01] back good paying jobs. They're talking about worker training. They're talking about education. They're talking to real people about real solutions.

That's what she's got to continue to do and then also focus on that she is going to deal with these problems in a way that brings people together. She's got a great slogan; it's called "Stronger Together." It's something that we saw for four days at the Philadelphia convention, which was a big contrast to what Donald Trump has been saying, and frankly has been doing.

I think all she has to do is continue on that message and Donald Trump is going to continue his unraveling because Andre and the Republicans say he's got to get back on message but the problem for them is that he is the message -

LEMON: Okay.

CARDONA: -- and he can't help himself.

LEMON: Judd, you said something that was very astute. You said there's a danger in Democrats getting overly confident; why do you say that?

JUDD LEGUM, EDITOR IN CHIEF, THINKPROGRESS, via satellite: Well I think it's easy to forget that it was only ten days ago that there were national polls coming out with Trump ahead two or three points. You know, today we've seen polls with Hillary ahead ten points, fifteen points; but these elections can have -- there's a long time to go. 90 days is a long period of time and there can be some more ups and downs, I think particularly Hillary is able to do better when the pressure is on or when she's feeling really motivated, we've seen her rise to the occasion. So I think complacency is really her enemy here.

LEMON: I was talking about sticking to message and not creating any, you know, self-inflicted wounds, Andre. I want to play you a clip of Donald Trump today at his rally, talking about the $400 million that the Obama Administration sent to Iran.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: You know it was interesting because a tape was made. You saw that with the airplane coming in, nice plane, -- the airplane coming in and the money coming off, I guess, right? That was given to us, has to be, by the Iranians. And you know why the tape was given to us? Because they want to embarrass our country. They want to embarrass our country. And they want to embarrass our President because we have a president whose incompetent. They want to embarrass -


TRUMP: They want to embarrass our president. I mean, who would ever think that they would be taking all of this money off the plane and then providing us with a tape. It's only for one reason and it's very, very sad.


LEMON: So, Andre, you know what the problem with that is? There is no evidence that there's any tape. So why then does he continue to claim that there is?

BAUER: Well I don't know that there's a tape or not. I haven't seen it, Don. I would think if he makes that claim, surely he's got a tape to back it up but, again, I have no idea.

LEMON: There is no tape and at one point his campaign said he was talking about the soldiers getting off the plane once they had been released but right now there's no evidence of any tape. He's been made aware of that and he continues to make that claim. Why would he do that when right now -

BAUER: Well, I would rather him be point - Don, if I were him, I'd be pointing out the fact that Hillary Clinton had a meeting -- had Warren Buffet next to her and say we're going to raise taxes on the middle- class. I would be hammering home stuff like that. I wouldn't be talking about a tape but I'm not the candidate.

LEMON: Okay.

CARDONA: Hey, Don, can I just -

LEMON: But you're a surrogate - you're a surrogate who speaks -- you guys, do you talk to the campaign about why?

BAUER: He's not listening to me.

CARDONA: He should.

LEMON: Do his people listen to you? When you call them - or do you email -- do you guys talk to each other?

BAUER: We still send carrier pigeons and smoke signals, Don.

LEMON: Okay; so that means no. Let's move on. Maria, what were you going to say? CARDONA: I was going to say that I couldn't agree more with Judd. I think the problem that Democrats can run into is that because Donald Trump, every single day, sometimes multiple times a day, says such outrageous things that commonsense Americans, Democrats, Independents and even right-thinking Republicans say there's no way this man can be elected to be our commander-in-chief, we don't want to fall into that complacency. Complacency is exactly how he wins.

In addition to that, he has such a low bar of expectations. If he comes out one day and sticks to the teleprompter and doesn't insult anybody, people think he looks presidential. So Hillary needs to continue to focus on message and make the contrast that this is a man that is completely, temperamentally unfit.

LEMON: Let's talk about her message, because in an interview -- don't worry, Judd, I'm going to get to you. Maria, in an interview with a Denver television station, Hillary Clinton said this about the FBI investigation into her private email server; she said, "And as the FBI said, everything that I've said publicly has been consistent and truthful with what I've told them."

But the Director Comey has said that that is not true. So why then does she continue to say that?

[23:10:02] CARDONA: Well, I do wish that she would actually say exactly what he said, which this has been very clear in the hearings; and what he said is that there is absolutely no evidence to show that she misled the FBI -

LEMON: So I'll ask you what I ask Andre then -

CARDONA: -- or that she lied to the FBI, which is exactly what Republicans have been hammering her for.

LEMON: So do you talk to the campaign? Do they explain to you why she keeps saying this if it's not true?

CARDONA: No; I have not talked to the campaign about that, but, again, they have this, right? This is something that known. This is on the record. This is something that Comey said in front of Congress and it's something that they should use because I do think that is absolutely exonerating against what Republicans are trying to hit her for.

LEMON: Judd, what's going on here?

LEGUM: It's an excellent question. This is a campaign unlike any other that we've seen. To me, I think this email situation has been something that's going on for pretty much the entire length of the campaign, maybe even before it began. I do think that Hillary is trying to lean on the idea that she was exonerated by the FBI, as far as any charges. But to me, it's a different level -- she's not being quite as precise as she needs to be describing how they came to that decision, but it's a different level to completely invent something out of whole cloth, this idea that there's a video, that there's going to be a transfer of money that doesn't even exist and to me it's a pattern on multiple subjects.

[Cross Talk]

LEMON: So then, Judd, why do you say Trump is not necessarily off message? What do you mean by that?

LEGUM: Well, I think this is his message. I think the thing that's the most damaging has been his attacks on the Khans. That message -- the problem with that is not only, one, are you attacking a Gold Star family, but the second thing is it was bigoted towards Muslims. He talked about the wife not speaking and said that was because of her Muslim faith, which wasn't true. He talked about Mr. Khan not -- opposing his policies because he didn't like the idea that he was trying to keep terrorism out.

This is considered off message but the reality is bigotry towards Muslims is the message of Donald Trump. He stood up on a stage in December, before any votes were cast, and said we're going to have a total ban on all Muslim immigration into the United States. So, unfortunately, I know that there's probably -- and Andre seems like a smart guy, smart Republican saying, hey, we need to get on to messaging and something that's going to do well. That is the message.

LEMON: To that point, his campaign manager, Paul Manafort, was on CBS this morning still claiming that the campaign is on track but listen closely to the words he's choosing.


PAUL MANAFORT, CAMPAIGN MANAGER, DONALD TRUMP CAMPAIGN: if we're out there on our message, which we will be, the framework of this election favors Donald Trump. If we run the campaign that we plan on running, we think we're going to win. We don't plan on winning in August. We plan on winning in November.


LEMON: So, Andre, if we run the campaign that we plan on running, is he acknowledging that he can't control Donald Trump?

BAUER: I don't know what he means by that. You know, hopefully he means do we have the funding, do we the ground troops? Do we have the message? Are we up on air, competing? You know, Hillary's been up on air for months now, with a great, you know, pounding message that didn't move a whole lot of numbers until this last week, which is a good thing for Donald Trump. The fact that he's been able to be dark and she spent tens of millions of dollars and they stayed neck and neck, you know, week after week after week shows he has potential to still win this thing.

LEMON: Okay; thank you very much. I appreciate it. Coming up New York City's top cop says Donald Trump scares him. I'm going to ask Commissioner William Bratton why he feels that way when he joins me next. Also ahead, a video profile of some of the supporters showing up at Donald Trump's rallies. Some may find it a bit disturbing. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:17:44] LEMON: A man who is one of the toughest, yet most high- profile jobs in the world is stepping aside. Joining me now is William J. Bratton, the Commissioner of the New York City Police Department.

Why are you leaving us?


LEMON: You have been in public life for a long time, and law enforcement, for 45 years. You've led the forces in Boston, Los Angeles, twice here in New York City. Widely credited with reducing crime in New York City, reforming the police department all across the country. Can you talk about the legacy you leave behind? Are you comfortable with the hands that you're leaving the New York City Police Department in?

BRATTON: I'm comfortable I'm leaving the City at a good time for me personally and professionally.

Professionally the City crime situation, we just did a press conference today, the mayor and I, crime continues to go down to historic low levels, as it has for 25 years. The technology we brought into the Department, there's nothing like it anywhere in American policing. The policies and procedures we've been putting into place, leading American policing also. So it's a good time for me to go along to new opportunities, and I'm looking forward to that.

LEMON: Cities like Baltimore, Chicago, Ferguson, there are many people who are -- they say they're more afraid of police than they are of criminals and then police also fear doing their jobs could get them in trouble and, you know, at the worst case killed. What do you do to restore the trust in those communities? What advice can you offer those communities?

BRATTON: That's a great question, because that is the challenge: how do we gain it where we never had it, how do we improve it where we do have it and how do we expand on it where we've always had it?

Part of it is the idea of seeing each other - I used the expression at the funeral of one of our officers who was murdered during the Ferguson period of time, and the idea is to try to find common ground that we can get on and understand each other.

in New York City we have a major initiative that the mayor has supported and funded, the neighborhood policing initiative. One of the reasons why my successor, Jimmy O'Neill, got the job is because he's putting that into place. He believes in it. It is the idea of procedural justice, police legitimacy, understanding the issue of implicit bias. The New York City [23:20:01] Police Department is probably further along in understanding all these issues, training for them, implementing them than just about any other place in America, and part of the reason why crime continues to go down, why the disturbances we have have been much less than elsewhere in America.

We're on a journey. We haven't arrived at our destination. We may never actually arrive at the destination, but we want to move forward and that's half the battle is you have to admit that you need to change.

LEMON: Can we talk - let's talk about terror, because New York City, as you know, we had one of the biggest terror attacks ever, the 9/11 terror attack that we had to deal with here. ISIS, now we're dealing with ISIS. We're seeing attacks in cities like Paris and then now ISIS telling its followers to strike in cities in the U.S. The President saying today that ISIS is no longer trying for big 9/11- style attacks; they're saying smaller attacks. Are you confident that New York City is prepared for those types of attacks?

BRATTON: I certainly am. We came into office, myself and John Miller, Head of Counterterrorism, in 2014, just as ISIS came on to the map. Al-Qaeda was all about the big attack. They pulled off 9/11 and wanted to pull it off again.

ISIS, from its beginning, was focused on using social media to inspire, to enable, in a sense, giving instructions through their social media, their magazine or to direct, like the Paris attacks were directed by them. They're now understanding that they can really, through social media, inspire people to take an ax, take a car, take a gun and they've found great results from that.

That's what's most fearsome about ISIS, their ability to inspire. It's a whole new world. Fortunately, in New York we have a large amount of resources to focus on it. No American city has as much as we do; and we need to have as much as we do because we remain the number one terrorist target in the world.

LEMON: You have seen a lot of politicians come and go. In this job you have to deal with the Commander-In-Chief.

BRATTON: Seen a lot of commissioners comes and go.

LEMON: A lot of commissioners as well; but I have to talk about the current state of politics and Donald Trump because he's in the city. If he was the commander-in-chief, as police commissioner you would have to deal with him. Do you think he's qualified to be president?

BRATTON: I have concerns about Mr. Trump. I've referenced those; that I worry about his lack of compassion, as evidenced by the issue around the Gold Star parents; the failure to understand the importance of the Purple Heart. As a veteran, as a Vietnam War Veteran, I just don't understand the veteran support for him and the reaction to receiving a Purple Heart and his comments about it were just indicative, to me, of an individual who doesn't understand a lot of what's so important about being a leader; and in terms of being President of the United States, a lot of it is having compassion for fallen soldier and their families.

A lot of it is about understanding the importance and history of what certain medals are given for. So the depth of his awareness and knowledge of the many issues that are important to be a leader in public life, and I've been one for public life now for over 40 years, I'm very concerned that the skills, compassion, expertise necessary for that, particularly for the most important job in the world, I really am concerned that he does not possess those.

LEMON: I've heard you are say he scares you; why?

BRATTON: He scares me in the sense that the idea as the representative of this country to the rest of the world, that the rest of the world right now seems to be afraid of him and the idea that we certainly want to be feared by enemies but we don't want to be feared by friends; and we start being feared by friends, then we've got problems and right now, as evidenced by a lot of the news reports of other countries -

When I was in Italy, my wife and I had the opportunity to vacation there earlier this year. They were all asking about what is it with this Mr. Trump? There's a wariness and a fear of him in countries that we've been aligned with for years. So there are things we need to question as we go forward that one man's opinion, not speaking as a police commissioner, but as an American citizen, proud to be a citizen who went to war for this country, something he did not.

Again, the election's coming so people get a chance to voice their concerns and comments. I'm comfortable voicing mine. it's one of the great things about living in America, you get to express your opinion.

LEMON: That's right. That's right; Commissioner, thank you.

BRATTON: Thank you.

LEMON: Don't go too far, you know. We may need you.

BRATTON: No, now I get to walk around this great city, ride the subways again. I'm looking forward to my time in the private sector.

LEMON: Thank you for your service, Commissioner.

BRATTON: Thank you.

LEMON: And up next, Donald Trump supporters at his rallies, what does the behavior of some of those supporters tell us about them and the candidate they're backing?


[23:28:50] LEMON: Who are Donald Trump's supporters? I want to talk about this with Bruce LeVelle. He is Executive Director of the National Diversity Coalition for Donald Trump; Erica Berenstein is a "New York Times" Video Journalist; and CNN Political Commentator and Charles Blow, an Op-Ed Columnist for the "New York Times."

Okay, good to have all of you. I want to start by playing some of this incredible video that you, Erica, and some of your colleagues shot for the "New York Times"; let's listen.


[Chanting Trump, Trump, Trump!]

TRUMP: Do you know the safest place in the world to be is at a Trump rally.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Build the wall! Build the wall!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [Bleep] those dirty beaners. Build a wall!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [Bleep] political correctness!

CROWD: Build that wall! Build that wall!


LEMON: Okay; so you and two other journalists covered a number of rallies for Donald Trump over the year. Why did you decide to tell a story of the inside the crowds and what did you discover?

ERICA BERENSTEIN, VIDEO JOURNALIST, "NEW YORK TIMES": Well, one of the things that's interesting about what we did is that while you usually see these kinds of rallies from the point of view of a television viewer on your couch, and you see sort of the perfect shot of the candidate talking, you rarely see the camera from the perspective of the people in the crowd, who are at the rally, who are feeling energy of the rally.

[23:00:00] So we decided that we wanted to gather some material from inside the crowd. If you notice in the video, you never actually see one of these, sort of, standard pool shots of Donald Trump. You might see him a tiny, tiny, tiny in the far away, in the back of the cellphone screen, because that's how most people are experiencing the rallies; but then what we actually found around us was obviously what ended up making the video.

LEMON: As I explained to the viewer last night, because we ran the video last night and got an incredible response to it, is that these things are usually -- you're corralled in a certain area. They're sort of orchestrated --

BERENSTEIN: Especially at Trump events.

LEMON: -- and they put you in a certain place to get certain shots but I thought it was very smart that you went out in the crowd to do -- another clip and then we'll discuss.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're making me leave.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: F*** Islam! God bless Donald Trump.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks for not taking the shirt off. (END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: You told our producer that you were reviewing this footage, and this moment in particular stood out to you; why?

BERENSTEIN: So a lot of people have said were you trying to just show the most sensationalized parts? Were you trying to cherry pick? I thought this scene was very important because this one shows you that this man wearing the t-shirt, that says something I cannot say on television, was escorted out of the rally. So he was not considered to be -- what he was wearing was not considered acceptable to stay inside the rally, so they did kick him out.

Now, when he got outside he got fist bumps from people saying thank you for not taking the shirt off and people were taking pictures with him and the energy from the people leaving the rally was that they were supporting him and they were supporting what he had done, and, you know, as he's going out you can hear him saying I'm supporting my right to free speech; and a lot of people were very excited that he did not take that shirt off, that he kept it on. It's not just this one guy was doing something sensational. It's that the people around him were cheering him on.

LEMON: The t-shirt said "F*** Islam" by the way, so everyone knows what that means. Bruce, you support Trump. You lead his national diversity coalition. When you see this video, what do you think?

BRUCE LEVELL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL DIVERSITY COALITION FOR TRUMP, via satellite: Don, I have to be honest with you, I didn't know anything about it until today and I did look at it briefly, and I just saw this. I will tell you this, though. Donald Trump has done hundreds of rallies all over the country and if you take 20,000 or 30,000 people in these arenas, that's millions of people and we've had not anyone get hurt; we've had some really good, safe rallies.

I will say this though, you know, it's quite disheartening to see that the "New York Times" has nothing better else to do than go find some pictures and put some subtitles below, some alleged people who said these things, which I didn't see it come out of their mouths. So I question the authenticity of the filming, in general, Don, just to be quite honest with you, based on what I see.

LEMON: Okay; in the video you can see Donald Trump at the rallies, at the video and there are people -

BERENSTEIN: My colleagues were there, physically there. So some of the stuff was sourced from social media to fill in parts of the story --

LEVELL: Exactly.

BERENSTEIN: -- but most of the stuff, including the -- if you don't believe the part about the man wearing the Islam t-shirt, you can find four or five different cameras on that day that filmed that man, and my colleague was one of them. Nick Corsoniti is a respected journalist. He filmed it. He just gathered that footage. LEVELL: You can go to any rally and find anyone. The guy was down the street, so - the gentleman being escorted -

BERENSTEIN: He was in the rally. You actually see him being kicked out of the rally.

LEVELL: That tells you the safety that Mr. Trump has for the security of his people who come to his rallies. Now I wonder if you went over to the Democrat rallies where Bernie and Hillary -- and do the same thing. Do you have that type of footage?

BERENSTEIN: Actually -

LEVELL: In all fairness?

BERENSTEIN: We have reporters who are on their umpteenth election cycle -

LEVELL: No, no, no. Do you have -

LEMON: Let her answer, Bruce. Let her answer.


BERENSTEIN: And we've been gathering - I did a specific story a few months ago about Bernie's crowds and we sent videographers out into the crowds to film what the supporters were cheering for. We even had a little clock-o-meter to show what kind of things were resonating with them. We did not find anything approaching anything like what we've -- any recent politician, Ted Cruz, Mitt Romney, Hillary Clinton, we've been to all those rallies and we haven't found this kind of thing at any of those.

LEMON: How do you respond to that, Bruce?

LEVELL: Well, everyone knows there's no love loss with the "New York Times" and the Trump campaign, let's just make it very clear.

BERENSTEIN: I'm not sure that's what this is about.

LEVELL: Well the video - it's totally about this.

LEMON: Okay; let me ask -- let me - let me let Charles get in here. [23:35:01[ Charles, are we supposed to not believe our own eyes?

CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't know what I'm supposed to believe. You have the video. You have multiple sources.

LEVELL: Sir, you had subtitles.

LEMON: Let him finish.

LEVELL: No, you had subtitles and pictures.

BLOW: No, don't do it. You talked already. No, sir, don't do it. You have video proof of it, you have multiple sources that can corroborate video, I don't know what else you're supposed to do.

[Cross Talk]

BLOW: In fact it is a dodge, right, because the fundamental question that should be being answered is if you are attracting people who are like this and respect the reporters cannot find a similar sort of feeling, sentiment, discussion, chanting in other rallies, no matter if they're Republican or Democrat, then you have to ask yourself so what is it about this candidacy that attracts these particular kinds of people? I never put it all on the candidate.

I think that Trump has fanned the flames here a bit, but, you know, there are hateful people in the world. There are hateful people in America. They vote, too. What you have to do is make sure they are not at home or feel welcome under your tent. I don't think he has sufficiently done that.

LEMON: There is -- there was a comparison made here, last night I didn't have time to get to it saying did you get to the people who are burning flags and what have you, but the great American way is demonstrating. People have been burning flags for a long time; that doesn't necessarily equate to racism or misogyny or homophobia or Islamophobia as well. That is apples and oranges.

BLOW: But when you're wearing a t-shirt -- if you're wearing a t- shirt, I don't know how much more explicit that can be.

BERENSTEIN: It's not just about this man felt it was a safe space where he could wear this t-shirt and people who are yelling these things, I'm just surprised -- look, it's no surprise there is a lot of racism in this country and there are a lot of people who feel comfortable with their own racism. What shocked me is they're in a public forum and they feel comfortable in a public place expressing these views. That to me is what was shocking, not that it exists; not that it happens.

Yes, if you get a million people, or 30,000 people into a room a hundred times, you're going to get some people who are going to be extreme, but the pattern and repetitiveness of it, the four or five, I can't even remember how many cities we have scenes from in this video, it's a repetitive thing. It's a safe space. People feel comfortable expressing these views there.

LEMON: Okay, Bruce, and that is what the critics of some of Donald Trump's critics have said, that he should be more aware of his language, more aware of denouncing things that go along with his rallies. So if he really cares about minorities, and you're the head of the Coalition, shouldn't he be doing something to stop this type of behavior?

LEVELL: Well, like I said, I didn't really watch the video but I did watch it tonight. If you noticed, the gentleman that did have the shirt on that was quite - that wasn't the best interest for the Trump - you notice he was escorted out. So you have to remember now, we have hundreds of rallies all over the country, and we're talking about millions of people, no one getting hurt. It is the absolute 100- percent concern for Mr. Trump, making sure everyone that comes to these rallies are safe and no one gets hurt.

Now people come in and say all types of things. I'm sure if you take the time and go do the Democrat side, the Hillary, and take some microphones and walk around and hear some of the things that come out from them, you could make a documentary on that. So, you know -

LEMON: She said she did, Bruce. She said she did.

BERENSTEIN: (Inaudible, cross talk).

LEVELL: Well, I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it.

BERENSTEIN: Because it's not there.

[Cross Talk]

LEMON: Well, she's saying to you -

LEVELL: Well, yes it does; but, anyway, at the end of the day -

BERENSTEIN: Not in the same way. Not in the same way.

LEVELL: Well, yes; I disagree.

LEMON: Charles, you wrote an Op-Ed today -


LEVELL: It was a big exasperated - Charles is laughing because he's never been to a rally.

BLOW: Yes, I have and don't - go ahead with your question.

LEMON: In your Op-Ed today you said "Making America Great Again" is, in fact, about the loss of white male privilege. Explain that.

BLOW: There's only one major category of people who are locked in a trunk. Hillary is doing better almost across the board among all categories of people, except one, and that is white males, particularly those with kind of lower-levels of education. That is not the same as income. People kind of conflate the two.

There are a lot of people who don't have a college education but do very well in factories or whatever, union jobs or what have you. I remember there was one estimate back in May that said that the average Trump voter made like $72,000 a year, but there's still anxiety in that group of people and there's a tremendous amount of it. We measured it in polls, with people saying [23:40:02] racism is rising and not against ethnic minorities but against white people.

We see that rising in, you know, kind of death certificates -- death statistics where people in that category are the only group of people in America where the number of deaths - where the death rates rising rather than falling. There's something happening within that group and I think that what is the reason that there is a majority of that particular group that is navigating to Donald Trump is that he is reflecting something about what they want and what they need, and I think it is about a loss of privilege. It is about a loss of prestige. It is about a loss of a sense of safety. It's about a fear of multi-culturalism, it is about a vision of America - when he says "Make America Great Again" that is an inverse way of saying you have lost something.

LEMON: Is he saying make America white again?

BLOW: I don't know if he's saying that, but I think - he never says what - he's been on the debate stage so many times and I cannot find a place where someone has said what day was that? What year was that? What period is that you're saying you want to revert to because the further you go back in time; the more people are disadvantaged over that time period. Is it before the Civil Right movement? Is it the last four years, eight years? Is it before the gay rights movement? Is it before the women's right movement? At what point is he, again, about?

LEMON: All right; we'll be right back. More of our conversation, don't go anywhere.


[23:45:23] LEMON: We're back and we're talking about Donald Trump looking to expand his support among black voters. Back with me now, Bruce LeVell, Erica Berenstein and Charles Blow. Also, the video that Erika and two of her colleagues at the "New York Times" shot. Let's take a look from another clip from the "New York Times."


TRUMP: Our President has divided this country so badly.

[Cheers and Applause]

There's a group out there; just throw them the hell out.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of here. Get out of here.


LEMON: So, Bruce, I want to take a look at a few figures here. I know, it's really exasperating. I don't - so, Bruce, before we look at the figures, how -- you're not attempting to rationalize this video that we're seeing, are you?

LEVELL: Well, you know, Don, once again, it's not a question of rationalizing. It's just, you know, you see a bunch of folks and you hear some voices and you see some subtitles and, you know, it's just -- it's crazy. It's just absolutely crazy; and just to piggy back -- or come back to Charles about Make America Great Again.

Making America Great means we are $19 trillion in debt. We have 1.6 trillion in student loans. We don't have any good trade deals that benefit the American people. We have other candidates saying they want to shut down coal mines and everything else. You know, that's what Make America Great. What's wrong with saying make America great again? Let's get out of these terrible deficits that we're in, Charles? What's wrong with saying make America great again?

LEMON: I think what Charles is saying -- because I know Charles doesn't want to go dig. I think can you say America is a great country, but yet we're not perfect and there have been times in recent history, in past history where we had these same issues and say problems and people still thought America was a great country. What's going to move us forward is to continue to think it's a great country that we can improve upon.

So let's talk about these numbers now. In a recent CNN-ORC poll 80- percent of non-white voters plan to vote for Clinton and only 12- percent for Trump. Can Trump overcome these numbers?

LEVELL: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Don, we are 97 days away from victory.

LEMON: How so?

LEVELL: Well, you know, look at our primary, 15 million votes, a record in the history in the United States. This is just a beginning of, like I said, I used this word before, a tsunami of votes that's going to come out. The American people are tired, Don. We're still - we're still pivoting, getting ready to go into the general. There's a lot of information that hasn't come out yet that relates to the other side, as you might say, that the American people are going to wake up and understand are they better off now than they were back then? They're going to come to reality.

LEMON: Okay.

LEVELL: This isn't going to go on so long like this.

LEMON: Okay, Bruce. You know, Donald Trump's campaign, Charles, is launching a black outreach effort, in part, by appealing to black churches. Can he regain, do you think, enough black support to make a difference in 96 days?

BLOW: So where's he starting because I've seen some polls that show him at zero and some that show him at one-percent and none that show him out of single digits. So I don't know what number he's shooting for, but at this point it seems abysmal and those numbers have not moved in months. So, I don't know what kind of magic fairy dust they're going to sprinkle on this situation, or what they can say in a black church -- he had at least one black pastor on at the convention. I think it was at the convention in Cleveland, who was very powerful and very articulate. I don't know if there are enough of those particular pastors who are going to vouch for him and that's going to move the needle for them.

LEMON: I've got to go but I want to give -- Erica, didn't get a chance to speak this time. How do you - you know, he could probably make the rallies more welcoming to people of color, that would help. But how do Black and Latino voters react, minority voters react to these rallies?

BERENSTEIN: How did they react to the rallies?

LEMON: Yes, to what you shot at the rallies and what was going on?

BERENSTEIN: I got an email from a colleague today that it brought me to [23:50:01] tears. She said something to the effect of -- she is African-American and said I knew there were people in this country who hate me because I'm black. I didn't realize that it was so strong, or I had forgotten about it.

LEMON: Thank you. Thank you, Erica; thank you, Charles; thank you, Bruce. I appreciate it. Coming up, remember when Marco Rubio accused Donald Trump of having small hands? Well, the evidence is in.


LEMON: Donald Trump likes everything big: his crowds, his buildings, his brand, but what about his hands? Here is CNN's Jeanne Moos.


JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Remember when Donald Trump would ask:

TRUMP: Look at those hands. Are they small hands? They're not small, are they?

MOOS: Yes, and here is the proof. A bronze cast of the Donald's right hand that's been hiding in plain sight inside the Madame Trousseaux's Wax Museum in New York City, but before we get to the stats, a quick recap.

You'll recall Trump had a nickname for Rubio.

TRUMP: I call him Little Marco. Little Marco.

MOOS: And then Rubio counterattacked.

MARCO RUBIO (R-FL) FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Have you seen his hands? [23:55:02] They're like this; and you know what they say about men with small hands; you can't trust them.

MOOS: The mockery led the Donald to bring out the big gun.

TRUMP: He referred to my hands, if they're small, something else must be small. I guarantee you, there is no problem. I guarantee you.

MOSS: Well, at least now we can guarantee the size of The Donald's hands. The "Hollywood Reporter" found the bronze one just steps away from Andy Warhol at Madame Trousseaux's. It was cast while making a wax version of young Trump, which has since been removed because it is outdated; but the hand remains begging for comparison. This guy's was bigger.

How old are you?


MOOS: "The Hollywood Reporter" measured The Donald's hand at 7.25 inches. The average American males is usually sighted at 7.44 inches, making Trump's smaller despite his 6'3" size. "The Hollywood Reporter" even made a PDF copy of the Candidates hand for people to printout, entitled "Do You Measure Up to Trump?"

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm a large; he's a medium.

MOOS: Most men were bigger. As for the women -

Your hand is the same size.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But my brain is much bigger.

MOOS: Now that the size is definitive, can we all stop pointing fingers at The Donald's hands?

Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.


LEMON: That is it for us tonight; thanks for watching. I'm Don Lemon. I'll see you back here tomorrow night; we're on at 9:00 p.m. Good night.