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Trump Speech in North Carolina Examined; Rio Police Say U.S. Swimmers Lied about Robbery. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired August 18, 2016 - 22:00   ET



[22:00:00] ANDERSON COOPER, AC360 SHOW HOST: That's it for us. Thanks for watching. CNN Tonight with Don Lemon starts now.

DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT SHOW HOST: Donald Trump says something you'd never expect.

This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

Tonight in North Carolina Donald Trump one we've never seen before.


DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Sometimes in the heat of debate and speaking on a multitude of issues, you don't choose the right words or you say the wrong thing. I have done that.


And believe it or not, I regret it.


And I do regret it, particularly where it may have caused personal pain.


LEMON: That was not off the cuff, but the question is that, is it the new dawn of the new and improved Trump.

Plus, American swimmers may be in over their heads. Rio police say it wasn't robbery, it was a lie. And they say Ryan Lochte, James Feigen, Jack Conger, and Gunnar Bentz should apologize to the city of Rio.

But what really happened? You're going to see for yourself tonight.

But I want to get right to CNN's Mark Preston, he's here with me in New York. Mark, the question is, Donald Trump's first rallies since Stephen Bannon took over and promoting Kellyanne Conway, what's your reaction here?

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: Well, I'll tell you what. Let me give you someone else's reaction, I mean, and then I can give you my reaction. This is a senior republican official reached out said what are were your thoughts on the trump's speech.

Because I think that everybody was really engaged in it if you were involved in politics. This is what I heard, "very pleased, and it's an important acknowledgement that mistakes were made. And amends are an important part of life. Very happy."

I think that what we saw from Donald Trump tonight was something that I think democrats should potentially fear. The fact that he stayed on message that he's able to still work his own Donald Trump listen into the speech but he didn't do it in a sticky way, he did it in a very serious way and I think that's the kind of Donald Trump that could be hopeful to republicans.

LEMON: So, the question is that people have been, commentators, pundits, democrats, and even republicans have been saying this is what Donald Trump should do for months now.


LEMON: So, his core supporters are they going to say Donald Trump is now anti-Donald Trump for taking the advice of those around him?

PRESTON: No, I don't think so. I think that they're still going to say we like Donald Trump, Donald Trump is one of our guys and the fact of the matter is who are they going to go support? They're not going to support Hillary Clinton.

LEMON: Yes. But you understand my point with that, right?

PRESTON: Oh, no doubt about it.

LEMON: Because every time someone says that, they're like, you're just anti-Trump, even for conservatives, right. And now Donald Trump is doing what people, the criticism of him, so I'm wondering what the response of that will be from that.

PRESTON: Right. And he also says I'm not a politician, I'm not a politician.


PRESTON: I'm not a politician. Tonight, he sounded but like a politician to win in November, you have to sound like a politician.

LEMON: Here's a key moment. Listen to this, Mark.


TRUMP: Sometimes in the heat of debate and speaking on a multitude of issues, you don't choose the right words or you say the wrong thing. I have done that.


And believe it or not, I regret it.


Thank you. And I do regret it, particularly where it may have caused personal pain.


LEMON: So, Donald Trump regrets something?

PRESTON: You know, 13 months ago I was with Donald Trump in Iowa. He asked in front of an audience of social conservatives have you ever asked God for forgiveness. He said no.

LEMON: Yes, I remember that moment.

PRESTON: Look where we are now 13 months later, 80 some-odd days before the election, Donald Trump coming out and saying that. I think that was the most important part of the speech. Because again, it goes back to what the senior republican said to me tonight, making amends is very important.


PRESTON: And that's what he did tonight.

LEMON: I'm wondering how some of his surrogates will respond. Again, I asked you that initially before the sound bite because they have been defending everything he says, he says he shouldn't regret it.

What does that mean for them, for all the people who have been saying, well, Donald Trump shouldn't regret it, he's saying what he feels. Now he's saying I do regret something. It's, you know, we're in a weird place.


PRESTON: We're in the last lap -- yes, yes. We're in the last lap of a marathon right now.


PRESTON: And if you want to win and you've got to do everything you can to win.

LEMON: Exactly.

PRESTON: And I do I think that, you know, look, some folks might look at Donald Trump and say why isn't Donald Trump continuing to be Donald Trump and being sticky up there. But, you know what? That's not going to win.

[22:05:00] And I think in the end if you were for Donald Trump before the speech, you're for Donald Trump after the speech.

LEMON: Do you think he's s -- do you think he's finally gotten it where everyone has been saying, again, if he would not just be so bombastic, if he would just reach out to the middle, if he would just not insult people so much, then maybe I might support this guy. Do you think he's finally getting in that, -- but clearly that's a Kellyanne influence.

PRESTON: Right. And Kellyanne Conway who has been on the show many, many times, she's now the campaign manager clearly she wrote that speech.

LEMON: That's right.

PRESTON: That's one from Kellyanne. To your question, though, I'm not going to go down that road because we've gone down this road before with him where ha has done something where we thought he's grown into a traditional candidate, tomorrow he can blow this off.

LEMON: Yes, we shall see. Here's Clinton, they already responded the statement. Let me read part of this. They said, "Donald Trump" -- or this is the entire thing -- "Donald Trump literally started his campaign by insulting people. He has continued to do so through each of the 428 days from them until now without shame or regret."

"We learned tonight that his speech teleprompter knows he has much for which he should apologize. But that apology tonight is simply a well- written phrase until he tells us which of his many offensive, bullying and divisive remarks or comments, I should say, he regrets and changes his tune altogether."

This is of course one speech. Again, do you think that you sort of just answer this before the influence of Kellyanne who clearly wrote this. Do you think that will last, we don't know you said.

PRESTON: We don't know but we do know Kellyanne and we know that she stamp these nails, right.

LEMON: Yes, we do know that. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Stick with me, Mark. I want to bring in now Michael Reagan, he's the son of President Ronald Reagan, the author of "The Lessons From my Father -- the Lessons that My Father Taught Me the Strength, Integrity, and faith of Ronald Reagan."

Also with me the former republican Congressman Jack Kingston, who is a senior adviser to the Trump campaign. Good evening, gentlemen. Thank you for joining the panel and joining the show.


LEMON: Congressman Kingston, to you first, you're a senior Trump adviser. What can you tell us about this speech? Who wrote it? When did it come together?

JACK KINGSTON, DONALD TRUMP'S SENIOR ADVISER: Well, I'm not sure that Kellyanne wrote it but I can say her signature is all over it. I think what we heard tonight was a tough speech. He talked about substance, he talked about NAFTA, he talked about sanctuary cities, he talked about law and order but at the same time he had the soft part.

And it was much needed. He wanted to apologize, he said it, it was well received. I think those of us who have been in elected office have often said things you regret and you hate that moment but there's also that wonderful moment in America where people somewhat forgive. When you reach out, you want to reconcile and I think that's what we saw tonight.

LEMON: How do you think his core supporters are going to accept this, those who think I don't want him to change, I want him to be that outspoken, you know, in their words not politically correct person who just says things that they think are OK but may be insulting to other people.

KINGSTON: Well, I think you saw the core supporters there tonight give him a loud cheer and applause when he apologized. And I think his core supporters appreciate the fact that, you know, sometimes you get in front of yourself and you got to backtrack and say something, you know, apologize and I think it's fine.

What they would be I think leery of if he said I'm not -- I might be for the trade agreement now or maybe now I don't -- he's not changing policy, he's saying I have to apologize for things that I've said, the pain I've caused but he did not change his policies which is why his core supporters are supporting him.

LEMON: OK. Now, to you, Michael. Do you think -- what's your reaction? Is all forgiven now you think?

REAGAN: Well, you follow me on Twitter. I feel vindicated to some point because I've been saying this for 13 months.

LEMON: Well, that's the point I was just making to Mark that many people who have been, you know, sort of deemed as anti-Trump have been saying this forever and now he's doing it. So, I'm wondering, you know, same question to you, if now his core supporters are going to say Trump is now anti-Trump? Go ahead.

REAGAN: Well, if they want to win, they can't say that. If they want to win they have to go with this Donald Trump because this is the only way to the finish line in November is this kind of a Donald Trump.

What Donald Trump was doing today was reaching out to the Bush's; reaching out to the Cruz's reaching out to those people in fact he hurt. Reaching out to Hispanic community, the area he needs to go into to win.

He's going to need those votes in order to get across that finish line. If the core supporters want him to not do that, then they also want him to spend the rest of his life in Trump towers.

LEMON: Yes. Do you think you said this was the Bush, the core republican voters, the core that's usually with republicans. Let's talk about African-Americans because he spoke about African-Americans as well. Let's listen


TRUMP: If African-American voters give Donald Trump a chance by giving me their vote, the result for them will be amazing.


[22:10:00] Look how badly things are going under decades of democratic leadership. Look at the schools, look at the poverty, look at the 58 percent of young African-Americans not working, 58 percent.

It is time for a change. What do you have to lose by trying something new? I will fix it. Watch. I will fix it.


You have nothing to lose. Nothing to lose.


LEMON: So, the other night in Wisconsin, Michael, he spoke to African-Americans or at least about African-Americans. He mentioned African-Americans this evening.

Considering some of his past, which we don't have to go over tonight, I think most of us know, do you think that he can make inroads with African-Americans if he continues on this path?

REAGAN: Well, you know, I wrote an op-ed piece that's out tonight about that speech. And I said to Michael Deaver who is with my father's campaign never would have let my dad give a speech like that to an all-white audience.


REAGAN: He would have had blacks peppered throughout the audience and would have pointed out blacks who were having issues and having problems.


LEMON: You know what, Michael, the two African-Americans on the panel are on this show right after that speech made the same point and got really castigated, you know, by some of Donald Trump's supporters and even members of the supporters here on the set, when we were making that very same point.

And then now today, they're saying they need to reach out to African- Americans, he's reaching out to African-Americans, saying maybe he should go to African-American communities and maybe that speech should not have been given in front of an all-white audience. Go ahead, Michael.

REAGAN: You know, much of a campaign, much of the campaign is really staging. And things need to be staged getting ready for your candidate to give a speech.

And I think the staging in that case was absolutely amateurish. And they need to work on the staging side. Maybe Kellyanne can work on those kinds of issues. But if he's going to be... (CROSSTALK)

LEMON: She didn't prepared, maybe I think that she's gotten it now. But that night she did not seem prepared to hear or receive that message at the moment. Maybe she was more invested than we realized at the moment because the next day they, you know, said she was going to be announced as a campaign manager. But that night, she...


REAGAN: And this was also, Don.


REAGAN: This was also a republican problem. This is not a Donald Trump problem. This has been a republican problem for a long time. I went and gave a speech in Florida a couple years ago, and I said this party was much more inclusive when my dad was president.

I then invited all the blacks and Hispanics in the room to please stand. And the only ones standing were serving breakfast to the all- white audience that was there doing the fund-raiser. And I said when you start allowing them at the table instead of serving the table, this party will do so much better.

LEMON: Michael, you say something that I think is very -- you know, I know the other guests to get in and we'll do that after the break. But I think you say something that's really important this evening because many people have been telling Donald Trump and his surrogates, especially people of color, what they would like to hear from the campaign or at least have the campaign be open to in discussing.

And it seems to have fallen on deaf ears or they, you know, have come up against, you know, just a block. Do you really -- do you really think that they're getting that now and this is not just pandering?

REAGAN: No, I think they're getting it to a point but it's something you need to work on 24 hours a day, seven days a week like the democrats do every single day of the year.

I think the Republican Party in many cases has thought about the black community much like they think about California, they've given up on it, and so they want to spend their money someplace else.

But Donald Trump has a great message. What is the left, what have the democrats done for the democrats that are there voting for them? They've done nothing. Look at the states. Look at the cities that are run by liberal democrats. They're absolute failures. And Donald Trump has a good message for that but the Republican Party needs to get engaged.

LEMON: All right. Everyone, stay with me. We have much more to talk about. When we come right back, Donald Trump's message to his own party. Are republicans happy about what they heard tonight? We'll discuss.


LEMON: Donald Trump using a new strategy at a campaign rally in North Carolina tonight. His first since shaking up his campaign leadership, staying on message and telling supporters he regrets some of the things he has said on the campaign trail.

Back with me now, Michael Reagan, the former republican Congressman, Jack Kingston, and CNN's mark Preston. Also joining us now republican consultant, Margaret Hoover.

Margaret, this is from a very well respected friend who is high in political circles and who is an independent said when he was ahead in the polls, no regrets.

Now that he's losing terribly, suddenly very regretful. Not buying it. Also not buying his sudden interest in African-Americans. He has 1 percent support It is all selfish. If he was leading, he would have no regrets about any of it. Do you agree with that or do you disagree with that?

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, he, first of all, as a republican who wants a party that has a big tent, that reaches out to African-Americans, that reaches out to Hispanics, I'm delighted to hear the Republican Party candidate...

LEMON: Right.

HOOVER: You know, at least making some rhetorical outreach to African-Americans. I will tell you as a republican who also serve advocates in the LGBT equalities, I was quite glad to hear that he was from the podium when he accepted his nomination making affirmative statements about the LGBTQ community.

But I can tell you rhetoric doesn't match the action. He did nothing to help the platform committee, adopt pro-LGBT stances at the republican convention. He is for some appointing Supreme Court justices that will roll back the marriage decision.

He's for a bill in the Senate and the House of Representatives, the FADA bill, the First Amendment Defense Act, which is actually just a sort of like a super religious Freedom Restoration Act at the federal level, one of these bills that have been enormously unpopular in state like Indiana where Mike Pence ran into it negatively.

So, what all of this to say, you know, a little bit of rhetoric that's positive for African-Americans while a great step in the first direction, in the right direction doesn't give me a lot of confidence that it means anything because I haven't seen the results of that...


HOOVER: ... in some of these other space.

LEMON: Actions speak louder than words. And when you look at past actions it may not line up to. But you have to start somewhere. When you say -- he didn't quite say I'm sorry, right. He didn't say I'm sorry.

[22:20:02] He said I regret if I've offended you sort of. But you - one must start somewhere don't you think?

HOOVER: I've a 3-year-old, right.


HOOVER: I'm teaching him what are you sorry for?


HOOVER: You're sorry for hitting somebody. You have to say what you're sorry for.

LEMON: Congressman, do you want to get in?

KINGSTON: Well, I think that's actually the typical ankle biting that we get in the national dialogue right now. He led with an apology. It was a very bold statement.

I'd love to see Hillary Clinton match him and say you know what, I've been lying and now here's my e-mails. That's not going to happen. But, you know, he made a very bold statement.

LEMON: Do you think it was an apology congressman?

KINGSTON: It was an absolute apology. And what he also said at the convention from the stage, as Margaret pointed out, was very significant. And to quote Hillary Clinton, which I don't do often, "words count." And he had words on the stage. And he also had Mr. Phil up there who was openly gay and spoke and was well-received at the republican convention.

And I want to say this, Don, to my very good friend Michael Reagan, he's not giving his dad enough credit by the appointment of Louis Sullivan to his cabinet. That was built on with Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice.

Now in the House of Representatives, you have more African-American members than ever before, certainly more than under Ronald Reagan. So, the Republican Party is reaching out, and the reality is Donald Trump is talking about jobs, he's talking about opportunities and he's going to cities like Milwaukee and say, you know, you've been voting democrat all these years, maybe you should try the other party, give them a chance. Put a little competition on it.

Just think about this for a minute, Don.


KINGSTON: If the African-American leaders, and of course he's very engaged with the African-American Sheriff David Clarke, if the leadership in Milwaukee came out and said you know what, we like what Donald Trump said, he came to Milwaukee, he talked to the community and where is Hillary Clinton? Hillary Clinton is following Barack Obama's lead on Louisiana. Either way she's just not going.


LEMON: Congressman, if you will just, with all due respect, he did -- he went to Milwaukee but he didn't speak to the African-American community there.


KINGSTON: Well, David Clarke...

LEMON: And he didn't -- there was nothing in the speech. I don't -- I didn't see in this -- well, David Clarke is a leader in there but I don't know if he is...


KINGSTON: And he's African-American.

LEMON: But the reason that there's unrest there is because the African-American community feels disconnected from some of the policies and police actions that David Clarke is party to. So, I don't know if that is...


KINGSTON: Well, but, you know, Don, get in kind of switch into bipartisan. And I come from Savannah, Georgia, which is 50 percent African-American and if you're in political civic life there, you work in a very integrated environment. It's a very positive thing.

The reality is the community there is suffering from 30 years of the welfare state, broken schools, broken family, health care that's not adequate, opportunities that aren't out there. And what he said tonight and what he said in Milwaukee is, you know, you might want to look at voting differently or at least becoming a little bit more...


LEMON: OK. I want -- I want Michael to get in. But I think the community there is suffering from more than just the welfare state. I think they're suffering from institutional racism, from systemic racism and also from policies that have taken place in this country that are both democrat and republican.

And they're suffering from some of the just neglect that people who are underserved and poor get in this country. You can be black or white but usually African-Americans are at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to all of that.

Michael Reagan, I let you -- I've got to move on but I'll let you have a word.

REAGAN: Yes. When the -- well, the government remember tried was going to fix everything. And they said, listen, if you can get the father out of the house, we'll give you welfare and you can have 10 babies that we'll pay for.

I mean, that was the beginning of the end of the black community, you know, if you will. I think people really need to talk about those kinds of values that talked about by Donald Trump. Yes, what is he going to do tomorrow?

If I was Donald Trump, tomorrow I'd call Jeb Bush and say, you know, I'm sorry for what I said about you and your family. I would call Ted Cruz and say I'm really sorry for what I said about your father, I'm really sorry about what I said about you and start getting those people on board and supporting and getting behind Donald Trump.

Those are the next things he needs to do and that's going to bring the party together. Right now the party is still apart.

LEMON: And he's going to Louisiana tomorrow ahead of the president, the president who has received criticism for being on vacation when there is national tragedy happening right now, and ahead of Hillary Clinton as well.

Thank you, everyone. I appreciate you joining me. When we come right back, should democrats be worried about the Trump campaign's new leadership team and what should they do about it?


LEMON: Donald Trump on a campaign trail in North Carolina tonight staying on script and slamming Hillary Clinton's record as Secretary of State.

I want to bring in Boris Epshteyn, he's a senior adviser to Trump campaign, Margaret is back with me, also joined now is Andre Bauer, a Trump supporter and Bakari Sellers, a Clinton supporter.

So, get your popcorn, this is going to be easy.

Andre, I'm going to start with you. First speech after big campaign shake-up, what did you think?

ANDRE BAUER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I thought he did the best job he's done yet. I thought he laid out a clear line on things he wanted to accomplish. I don't think insulted anybody. I think he showed some humbleness in apologizing for hurting people's feelings in the past.

LEMON: Yes. Boris?

BORIS EPSHTEYN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I thought it was a great speech. Great speech everything from the personal lead-in, then going after Hillary Clinton on the issues, on the ransom to Iran, on the e- mails, on her lifeline -- lifetime of lying but then pivoting back and talking about trade, talking about jobs and saving inner cities in this country. I thought it was a wonderful speech.

LEMON: Margaret, honestly, he sounded like he was launching his presidential bid tonight. It was like, wait a minute, when he launched it, why didn't he give this speech? Is this a restart? HOOVER: Or the big pivot that everyone has been waiting for in the



LEMON: Yes. I hate that word. But, go ahead.

HOOVER: I don't know. You know, everybody said he'll start get professional and start acting presidential once he gets the nomination, right. And then once he got the nomination he's had this three or four of this speech and he strikes in it.

It sorts of reminds you of a dieter. Like somebody who is on a diet and they stick to the diet and they have the calorie count the right day, and like two or three days later, they just blow it.

EPSHTEYN: Come on, Margaret. Stop hating. Stop hating.

HOOVER: No, no, I'm just...


[22:30:02] LEMON: Let her finish. Let her finish.

HOOVER: I am not hating. I am simply saying if we're realistic about this that many people can feel good about the speech and have many times, and then it's not what he does today, it's what he does tomorrow or the next and the next day. So, the key is...


EPSHTEYN: Well, you like the speech, but did you like the speech?

HOOVER: There were elements of it that I quite liked. It would be great if there was some consistency and then if he end up, you know, being able to do some of the things we've talked about actually like...


LEMON: Yes. You asked -- you asked her if she liked the speech. You like the speech and the you like the speech and I think, you know, many people who support Donald Trump quite honestly, in which is my job to be devil's advocate here, there were people who just did not believe it.

He said, you know, it was written and Hillary Clinton's campaign said the same thing, I don't believe it, it was scripted. That's not who he is, who really he is who he is off teleprompter. Go ahead, Bakari.

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I mean, you got to give him credit for actually delivering the speech.

LEMON: Absolutely.

SELLERS: He read the teleprompter that Kellyanne Conway did a great job putting the words in the teleprompter. That's fine. But it's 429 days into Donald Trump running for president of the United States. And all of a sudden we're supposed to suspect that this is someone new. And I think that comes across.

But what -- it's ironic to me because we judge Donald Trump on such a different scale. When you compare Donald Trump to a Mitt Romney, a John McCain, a Barack Obama, I mean, even if you go back to Al Gore and John Kerry, people who didn't win races, we're not using those same metrics to judge Donald Trump.

We have such a low expectation that we're like, oh my, God, he didn't insult anybody. Oh, my God, he made an apology today to an unspecified group of people for an unspecified quote and now we're saying that's courageous. No, that's not.

LEMON: OK. That's a good setup because this is speaking of unspecified group of people. Who are those people? The Khan family? Is that one group? Listen to this.


DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't regret anything. I said nice things about the son and I feel that very strongly, but of course I was hit very hard from the stage and, you know, it's just one of those things. No, I don't regret anything.


LEMON: That was 16 days ago when he was asked about the Khan family. And if he had any regrets. He said, no, I have no regrets. So, should he be more specific if that's what he is...

EPSHTEYN: This is a very personal speech obviously. This was a speech that has put a heart into and he is saying that if over the last year plus during this brutal, brutal campaign season, if he's offended anybody, he regrets it. And now it's time to look forward and make sure that we talk about the issues really affecting this country.

LEMON: OK. I'm going to have to disagree with you.


LEMON: OK. You know what personal is Mr. And Mrs. Khan, I'm sorry if I insulted you, or I'm sorry for saying those words about you, I didn't mean it. Your son is a hero, I should never have said those word.


EPSTEYN: And he's said that repeatedly.

LEMON: John McCain, I'm sorry. John McCain, I'm really sorry for saying that you're not a war hero because you were captured. But I'm saying that's what personal is. OK. Go on.

EPSTEYN: Do I know today if the speech was good, because that's what the two of you...

LEMON: No, not say good. You said personal.

EPSTEYN: ... that's what the two of you want to talk about. You want to talk about who is he apologizing to?


SELLERS: No, I mean...

EPSTEYN: Let me finish though. But what the speech was really good on, it was good on talking about issues that face everybody in this country.


LEMON: That's not what we want to talk about. We talked about -- we talked about different elements of the speech. I give him credit for the whole top of the show saying this is what people his critics have been saying that he should have been doing it and now he's doing it, good on you. But a personal thing is, Margaret, I'm sorry, I offended you, I'm sorry.


EPSTEYN: I thought it was a personal speech.

LEMON: Exactly.

SELLERS: I want to take Boris's challenge.

LEMON: Yes, go ahead.

SELLERS: I want to take Boris's challenge because I do want to delve into the substance with Donald Trump because he doesn't give you. Because Donald Trump he says he wants to repeal Obamacare. What are you going to substitute it with?


LEMON: Let him finish. Let him finish.

SELLERS: That's right. But that's not -- that's not a plan. He does not have a plan.

HOOVER: Actually...

EPSTEYN: The 13 cops have failed.

SELELRS: He does not -- no, you can't...

LEMON: Let him finish. Go on.

SELLERS: If you can't identify the problem -- if you deem to be a problem you can identify but you can't solve it. Donald Trump said what are you going to do -- what are you going to do about ISIS, what are you going to do about terrorism?

Oh, my god, terrorist we're going to hunt you down, we're going to kill you, and we're going to do it soon. Big league. That's it.

EPSTEYN: Big league. Big league. Don't miss it, big leagues.

SELLERS: I'm going to finish these thoughts really briefly. The African-American community, you know what? You're going to support me. You know why you're going to support me because you have nothing to lose. Donald Trump has no there- there. And you can't give me one policy prescription that came out of that speech.

LEMON: Ok. Go ahead, Margaret.

EPSTEYN: So, if I may...


LEMON: Ladies first. Let Margaret...

HOOVER: Heaven forbid I actually defend Donald Trump's policy. You know, look, he has not been one to really get into the weeds in policy but on his health care stuff.

I mean, he does have some addition to his staff and he does something people who are very good at polling and he actually have come out with a pretty comprehensive plan for how he would change Obamacare, right.

He would do certain things about being able to buy the insurance across state lines, he would give Medicaid in block grants, he's -- and then it's like about the state point plan, which, by the way, was John McCain's plan in 2008, and was Mitt Romney's plan in 2012.

SELLERS: Correct.

HOOVER: And has strong elements of being Paul Ryan's plan now.

LEMON: Paul Ryan, yes.

[22:34:58] HOOVER: OK. So, this is a repackaged republican plan which, by the way, in my view, has some very strong policy components to it.


EPSTEYN: Can I answer on ISIS?

LEMON: No, you can't answer on ISIS.

HOOVER: So, the challenge though...


LEMON: You can't answer on ISIS and...

HOOVER: ... for the people republicans like me is we know he's just saying the words. We have no sense that he actually believes it and we actually haven't seen any...


LEMON: Hold on. Boris, you don't get to talk at all. We're done with you.

EPSTEYN: I don't get to talk at this, I'll go home.

LEMON: No, I'm kidding. Right after the break you'll get to talk.

EPSTEYN: All right.

LEMON:. We'll be right back. We'll continue our conversation. We'll be right back.


LEMON: All right. Back with me now, my panel. Donald -- this is part of Donald Trump's message tonight. Take a listen to this.


TRUMP: I am running to be the voice for every forgotten part of this country, that has been waiting and hoping for a better future.


I am glad that I make the powerful, and I mean very powerful, a little uncomfortable now and again, including some of the powerful people frankly in my own party.


[22:39:57] Because it means that I'm fighting for real change, real change.


LEMON: So, Mr. Bauer, he made the point again and again that he's the voice of the little guy, he's the outsider fighting the establishment. Is that going to resonate with the voters to get in those swing states?

BAUER: I believe it will. I think that is clearly the messages. There are folks that feel like they have been left behind by their elected leaders. And they're the folks that are struggling, they're under employed, or unemployed.

And they feel like Washington is not doing it for them and, quite frankly, I don't think Hillary has shown any vehicle or mechanism to get them out of that situation. And Trump is actually to those folks.

And he speaks in very minimalistic language. He didn't speak in big glorified terms. He actually I think speaks at even a level that they understand. It's very easy to understand where Trump' coming from. He doesn't talk Washingtonian, for example. LEMON: OK. I know, I just think that -- maybe I'm wrong, I'm reading

it the wrong way, it sounds like you're talking down to people like, they don't understand because they can't...


SELLERS: I think -- I mean, I think that's one of Trump's greatest attributes. I think Trump has realized a few things. One, Trump is not a -- we've made him this and even -- I think I've said this many times and I was incorrect and I know the media is doing it, the left wing mainstream media has been doing it.

But we've made Trump to be this populous, socioeconomic candidate where he's speaking to a certain group of people based on their income level, they're forgotten. But, no, Trump is a very cultural candidate. Trump is more George Wallace than Ronald Reagan.

EPSHTEYN: That is so wrong.

SELELRS: I mean, Trump is speaking -- Trump is speaking to people's very primal, visceral.


EPSHTEYN: That is so incorrect.

LEMON: I understand that but I'm saying is I don't think that Donald Trump supporters are stupid. I think that they are smart people.

SELLERS: No, not at all.


EPSHTEYN: If George Wallace is what you meant, absolutely ridiculous.

LEMON: Hang on, hang on, hang on.

EPSHTEYN: Absolutely ridiculous.

Maybe that's not what he meant but that's what you hear.

LEMON: I don't think that's what he meant but that's what I hear. It's like his voters are -- his supporters are not very smart. That's not what he meant.

BAUER: No, I think he's able to resonate at a level of things where they are really hurting.

LEMON: OK. I get that. All right. Go ahead.

EPSHTEN: He resonates -- he resonates with the whole spectrum of voters, whole spectrum of this. Everybody from a cab driver to somebody in the inner city to folks like myself in business. He resonates with the whole spectrum of them and he spoke of that tonight, he spoke of veterans, factory workers. People in inner cities. You have no basis for the George Wallace for this (Ph). SELLERS: I have a lot of basis for it.

EPSHTEYN: You have a republican candidate who's going out there and speaking about the 4,000 murders in Chicago since Barack Obama became president. And you have a republican candidate who is saying we have absolute despair in our cities and he is going to fix like he's being fixed by businessman in Detroit as we speak.


SELLERS: So, you want to know the basis?

EPSHTEYN: And that a negative thing for you and I'm sorry.

SELLERS: You want to know the basis? The basis? You want to know basis?


LEMON: Let him answer the basis.

SELLERS: Let me answer the basis. The basis is the fact that Donald Trump has been sued not once but twice for failure to rent to African- Americans. The basis is the fact of the Central Park 5 when he took out that heinous ad in the New York Post -- New York Times to asking for them to be executed.

The basis of the fact -- the basis of -- no, I can go back to 2008 when the basis of the fact that he started the birther movement. So, that is the basis for Donald Trump...


EPSHTEYN: What has your candidate done for inner cities?

SELLERS: You asked me a question. You asked me a direct question to say what is the George Wallace comparison. And I just gave it to you. The fact that...


EPSHTEYN: And you're picking at his father's business career, that's your example.

SELLERS: I just said eight years, I mean, eight years ago, seven years ago.

LEMON: It's 2011 was the birther thing.

SELLERS: The 2011...

EPSHTEYN: And that's your basis -- I'm asking a question where is our president from. It's not a basis of comparison to George Wallace. What has your candidate...

SELLERS: No, it is because you're legitimatizing... EPSHTEYN: What does your candidate Hillary Clinton done for the inner cities?

LEMON: Let him finish.

SELLERS: Her first speech -- just follow me, Boris. Because her first speech was at the Dinkins Institute in New York City. Do you know her first speech was on a campaign trail, it was about criminal justice reform talking about how we're going to...


EPSHTEYN: How are the Clintons going to promote justice reform?

SELLERS: Can I finish a sentence?

EPSHTEYN: How are the Clintons going to promote justice reform?

LEMON: Boris, let him finish and I'll let you get in.

SELLERS: You know what? They're doing very well. You know why they're doing well? Because they're actually talking about unraveling the prison industrial context -- excuse me, complex.

They're talking about making sure that we don't -- they're talking about making sure that we don't have this prison to -- this school-to- prison pipeline. I mean...


EPSHTEYN: It's based on Bill Clinton's presidency.

SELLERS: ... that is what we're talking about.

EPSHTEYN: The Clintons are to blame for what's going on in our prisons.

SELLERS: When is Donald Trump going to actually say the word criminal justice reform?

EPSHTEYN: What do you -- well, the Clintons have said plenty and that didn't work. It didn't work out well at all.


SELLERS: Answer the question. When is he going to say criminal justice reform?

EPSHTEYN: What he's saying is that he's going to save our inner cities because the economy is at its basis.

SELLERS: How? How?

EPSHTEYN: Look at Detroit, then (Inaudible) by pouring money. By pouring money, by giving investments. By investing in our inner cities and not, you know... (CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: He's going to give -- he's going to give black people handouts.

EPSHTEYN: And not reform -- no. Now reform in the criminal justice system...


SELLERS: That's what you said.

EPSHTEYN: ... which the Clintons did which is responsible for them out.

SELLERS: So, he's not going to reform the criminal justice system and he's going to give handouts.

EPSHTEYN: It's not about handouts.

SELLERS: What is he doing?

EPSHTEYN: It's about revitalizing the economy put its business.


EPSHTEYN: Look at Bush way.


EPSHTEYN: Giving businesses tax incentives.



EPSHTEYN: Tax incentives, 50 percent corporate tax rate. I'm answering you and you're laughing at me. I'm answering you and you're laughing at me. The 50 percent corporate tax rate. How about...


SELLERS: That is going...

EPSHTEYN: Giving tax incentives for people who are investing in inner cities. Tax incentives for businesses who go into inner cities. Is there anything wrong with that? Do you not like that?


SELLERS: There's nothing wrong with it.

EPSHTEYN: Do you know like that. Your candidate has done nothing. You brought up a speech. Your candidate has been in public service for 40 years. She's done nothing on this.

[22:45:02] SELLERS: I mean, we can actually -- you're flat out wrong. Because have you ever heard of the CHIPS program?


SELLERS: Do you know the CHIP program?

EPSHTEYN: What was that before the inner cities?

SELLERS: There are six million children, many of which actually like me and you, Boris and Don, that actually have health insurance now...

BAUER: What about me?

SELLERS: Not quite. That actually have health insurance now because of the CHIP program.

EPSHTEYN: That helped the 4,000 people shot and killed in Chicago since 2008, it did not? Is that helping anybody in Milwaukee? That's not helping anybody in the inner cities that are destroyed by the Clinton/Obama economy.

LEMON: Actually, there was a, I forget who the law enforcement I saw official who was on a couple days ago said that under the Clinton administration police departments were getting more money than under any other administration and they were able to fight crime better even then the Bush administration.


SELLERS: Well, that's relative. That's relative.

EPSHTEYN: The crime bill didn't have...


LEMON: The 1994 crime bill was devastating. Yes.

EPSHTEYN: It was a mess.

LEMON: You don't support that?

EPSHTEYN: Not at all.


EPSHTEYN: OK. Does Hillary Clinton?

SELLERS: Not anymore. I've held her accountable for that from day one but you can't sit here and say that the same person who asked for five young people to be executed was not in favor of that either.

EPSHTEYN: What I'll tell you is this. The person who is running for president, Donald Trump, is the one who actually will revitalize our city.

You know what Hillary Clinton is doing, she's promising you, she's giving speeches. Your example was her speech. She's done nothing in her career but lie.

And just like she lied about her e-mails, just like they're lying about the Clinton Foundation and just like Obama lied about the ransom. All they do is lie. Donald Trump's telling the truth.

LEMON: You know what I promise you?


LEMON: I got to get to a break or none of us will be here tomorrow night. So, I got to -- well, you won't be here tomorrow night.

SELLERS: You won't be here tomorrow night.

EPSHTEYN: It's Friday night I'm washing (Ph) tomorrow.

LEMON: But you all will be back in the next hour. We'll be right back. We're going to talk about Ryan Lochte and the swimmers down in Rio. What the heck happened? We'll be right back.


LEMON: Breaking news tonight out of Rio. Two American swimmers are on their way back home tonight. That's in the wake of their story that they and two of their teammates, including Ryan Lochte were robbed at gun point over the weekend. Police in Brazil say that story is lie.

We're going to get to our reporter in just a moment. But I need to read this. This just in, the USOC, the United States Olympic Committee has apologized to Rio for this incident.

They're saying "On behalf of the United States Olympic Committee, we apologize to our hosts in Rio and the people of Brazil for this distracting ordeal in the midst of what should rightly be a celebration of excellence. With three days remaining in the Olympic games our primary focus will remain on supporting the athletes who are still competing and celebrating the achievements of those who have finished."

We are going to discuss that with our panel tonight. But I want to get the latest on this now CNN's Nick Paton Walsh. So, Nick, the swimmer, the two swimmers who were there earlier speaking to police they were taken off their flights yesterday by Brazilian authorities, and now they are reportedly back at the airport heading back here. What is the latest on this investigation?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they say in this statement that in fact, actually they've recently departed Rio, I guess this was released pretty much when their plane left the ground here.

We know they got their passports back after talking to the police earlier on today. But there's a lot of extra detail in the statement, Don, which is very telling indeed.

We don't know where James Feigen is, he's the third, what, the remaining of the four from this four swimmers that everyone else has had it back to the U.S. Ryan Lochte already there.

Mr. Feigen, though, according to the statement provided a revised statement this evening to police with the hope of securing the release of his passport as soon as possible. Clearly he wants to get home.

But they go on to say they haven't seen what Mr. Conger and Mr. Bentz who are currently flying out now have said to the police but they believe it backs up pretty much -- they're sort of getting a gray line here between the Brazilian version of events and that held out by supporters of Mr. Lochte and the swimmers at that stage.

Suggesting that one of the athletes was involved in vandalism at this gas station when they stopped off to use the bathroom and at a later point security guards who had weapons on display ended up in the discussion with them where they handed over money in order to resolve the situation.

The apology is also key here as well because that's been asked for by police in the state of Rio here from these high profile individuals.

This feels like the United States Olympic Committee trying to draw a line on the situation, navigate a middle path between the two versions of events that are pretty starkly similar.

One says there was an armed robbery of this man, the other one says they voluntarily settled the matter with money. And now, people are basically three quarters of the athletes are out of the country. The whereabouts of Mr. Feigen isn't clear at this stage.

I think you can see both sides trying to push this under cup, but there are still questions frankly as to how this instance managed to get so wildly out of control to an international proportions, Don.

LEMON: Yes. Nick Paton Walsh in Rio for us. Nick, thank you very much. I want to turn now to our legal issues in this case.

Here to discuss, Alan Dershowitz, author of "Electile Dysfunction, a Guide for Unaroused Voters." I'm going to say that wrong one night and it's going to be all over the internet - he joins us now via Skype.

Also with us criminologist Casey Jordan. Thank you so much for joining us. Alan, do dealt these issues. This is an international incident now. Now that the USOC has apologized, what do you think that means and how does that play into this?


LEMON: So, we're having a problem -- Alan, we're having a problem with your audio. Casey, can you answer that question for us, please?

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Sure. I think the fact that they're back pedaling really does indicate that there are two versions of this event and that they are beginning to realize that jumping to the presumption of Mr. Lochte's story that they were robbed at gun point, guns put to their head, being told to be get on the ground, having their wallets stolen was really at the very least an exaggeration, at the most a complete fabrication.

I think most people agree that they were intoxicated, they did some vandalism, they tore a sign off the gas station wall and they were confronted by the security guard and in Brazil, they are armed security guards and told them to make reparation, to pay for the damage they did.

They paid the money, it was all over but the story turned out into a robbery. And frankly, Don, I think that's just as -- you know, the exaggeration, it was capitalizing on Brazil's reputation for violence that they're trying very hard to overcome. And I think that's why the apology came down.

[22:55:03] LEMON: And speaking of that what you say is an exaggeration, I want Casey to look at some video now. Ryan Lochte originally said that he was held up at gun point. We can see the video here. The man seems to have an object in his hand.

He spoke to NBC's Matt Lauer after the incident again last night. Let's take a look.


RYAN LOCHTE, U.S. OLYMPIC SWIMMER: He told the other swimmers to get down on the ground. They got down on the ground. I refused. I was like we didn't do anything wrong.


LOCHTE: So, I'm not getting down on the ground. And then the guy pulled out his gun, he cocked it, put it to my forehead, he said get down, and I put my hands up and I was like, whenever.

MATT LAUER, NBC ANCHOR: When he talked to me tonight, he said "that's when the guy pointed the gun in my direction and cocked it." And pointedly said to him, you had said before it was placed on your forehead and was cocked. He said, no, that's not exactly what happened.


LEMON: The first one was Billy Bush, the second was Matt Lauer. How serious, Casey, is it to Ryan's case that he gave conflicting stories?

JORDAN: Well, it makes him completely unreliable. And he called his change, his inconsistencies a traumatic mischaracterization but I think the scientific form what we call it is lying.

And he basically made up a story that would exonerate him and turn him into the victim and act as a red herring and take attention from his very irresponsible behavior, which to be honest would not have been a big deal if he had owned up to it, exhibited some character that he should as a gold medal athlete.

He made his reparation, apologize to the gas station owner, it wouldn't have been a big deal. It's the lie that makes it a big deal. LEMON: Yes, it's always the cover-up, right, even in this.

JORDAN: Correct.

LEMON: So, this is being reported by USA, this is just in, being reported by USA Today, a statement from USA swimming says, "The last five days have been difficult for our USA swimming and United States Olympic families. While we are thankful our athletes are safe, we do not condone the lapse in judgment in the conduct that led to us this point. It is not representative of what is expected as Olympians, as Americans, as swimmers and as individuals."

So, that is coming from the USA swimming. Thank you so much, Casey. I appreciate that.

JORDAN: Great to be here.

LEMON: Yes. We apologize to Alan Dershowitz, again there were some technical problems there.

When we come right back, Donald Trump and Breitbart News what messages the candidate is sending to rank and file republicans with this ties to the far right news site?