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LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Trump on Immigration; Judge in the Stanford Rape Case has been Asked to be Moved to Civil Cases. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired August 26, 2016 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[12:00:00] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: And that's the truth. At least that's what they say is the truth. And the signature policy of the Republican nominee, a policy that critics have long considered racist, at its core is today murkier than ever. In an exclusive interview with CNN's Anderson Cooper, Donald Trump, once again, changed course on that whole immigration thingy, and reform in general, and mass deportation in particular. So, I want you to be able to look at it for yourself and use your prism. I'm going to play for you an excerpt that begins with a promise that Trump hasn't changed from day one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: We're going to build a wall. We are going to build a real wall. A wall that absolutely works. And they do absolutely work, if it's done properly. Right now it's a joke. You have walls that are this high. That's number one.

We are going to stop illegal immigration pouring into our country. My first day in office, I am going to notify law enforcement authorities that all of the bad dudes, and we have a lot of them, that are here illegally, that are the heads of gangs and drug cartel and all sorts of people -

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Right, people that commit crimes.

TRUMP: And there are probably millions of them, but certainly hundreds of thousands. Big numbers. They're out. They're out. Excuse me. The police know who they are. I've spoken to many police. The police know who they are. They deal with them all the time. They're nothing but problems.

COOPER: (INAUDIBLE).

TRUMP: We're going to end sanctuary cities. We're going to run a country like it's supposed to be run. We're going to have borders. Very strong borders. And after that, we're going to see what happens. But we are going to find people and we're getting immediately, and I mean first hour of my - the first document I will sign will say, get the bad ones out of this country. Bring them back where they came from.

COOPER: But I know - you know I've got to follow up. You asked on - you said on "Hannity" you used the word softening. Even last night on "Hannity" you talked about - TRUMP: Well, I don't think it's a softening. I think it's - it's -

COOPER: But 11 million people are no long going to be deported?

TRUMP: I've had people say it's a hardening (ph), actually.

COOPER: But 11 million who have not committed a crime -

TRUMP: No, no, we're then going to see -

COOPER: There's going to - there's going to be a path to legalization, is that right?

TRUMP: You know it's a process. You can't take 11 at one time and just say, boom, you're gone. We have to find where these people are. Most people don't even knows where they are. Nobody even knows if it's 11.

COOPER: So it's still possible -

TRUMP: It could be 30 and it could be five. Nobody knows what the number is.

COOPER: But if somebody hasn't committed a crime -

TRUMP: I'll tell you what we know. Let me explain.

COOPER: Will they be deported?

TRUMP: Let me tell you what. We know the bad ones. We know where they are, who they are. We know the drug cartel people. We know the gangs and the heads of the gangs and the gang members. Those people are gone.

COOPER: But isn't that -

TRUMP: That's a huge number. No, it's not.

COOPER: But that's Jeb Bush's policy. I mean essentially what -

TRUMP: I don't know anything about Jeb Bush. He wasn't building a wall.

COOPER: Well -

TRUMP: Jeb Bush wasn't building a wall. Jeb Bush wasn't making strong borders. And I'm not knocking Jeb Bush, but I was with him for a long time.

COOPER: Right, but he - but he was mocked for saying that, look, you can't deport 11 million people. It now seems like, I know you're not really focusing on it, but -

TRUMP: First, I want to see what's going to happen. We're going to deport many people. Many, many people. The bad ones.

COOPER: Right. The vast majority of those 11 million are not criminals.

TRUMP: Well, we don't know that. We're going to find out who they are.

COOPER: They have not committed a crime.

TRUMP: We have crime all over this country.

COOPER: So if they haven't committed a crime, is there going to be a path to legalization?

TRUMP: The first thing we're going to do -

COOPER: I'm talking about citizenship, legalization (ph).

TRUMP: No, there's not a path. There is no path to legalization, unless people leave the country -

COOPER: You talked about paying back taxes on (INAUDIBLE).

TRUMP: Well, when they come back in, if they come back in, then they can start paying taxes.

COOPER: So they still have to leave the country?

TRUMP: But there is no path to legalization unless they leave the country and come back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, there are two people here who know a lot about this. Our chief political correspondent Dana Bash is with me. And also because immigration is a legal issue, as well, as a political issue, our senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is here.

And, Jeffrey, I'm going to start with you.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

BANFIELD: That whole legal thingy, first of all, can I just say how frustration is it not to be able to hear Anderson's questions in their entirety because they're good questions and I don't believe the full answers were given because Donald Trump wasn't hearing the full question. But the question remains, there is a law in place now and there is a policy in place now to, quote, "get the bad ones out." What would be different under what Donald Trump has been saying over this past week about his plan to get the bad ones out and what we're doing now?

TOOBIN: Well, that's the part that I found maddening about that part of the interview because this goes back decades. If you are illegally in the country and you are convicted of a felony, a bad one, drug dealers, as Trump was often saying there, those - that's deportable offenses. They - and that's not Barack Obama. That's not George W. Bush. That goes way back. That if you are convicted of a felony and you are illegally in the country, you get thrown out, period. That has been the law of the land for - for decades. BANFIELD: Yes, so -

TOOBIN: So I don't understand what his point is there when he says we're going to get the bad ones out. The bad ones, the ones who are caught, are already going out.

[12:05:08] BANFIELD: Trump is tweeting right now. I'm not sure if this is the most recent one. I'm going to look at this off camera. Can you just lean back, Jeffrey, so I can read it behind you.

TOOBIN: I'm sorry.

BANFIELD: I'm so sorry. This is a little inside baseball here.

TOOBIN: Yes.

BANFIELD: But "I'm very proud to have brought the subject of illegal immigration back into the discussion. Such a big problem for our country. I will solve."

TOOBIN: Well, can I just -

BANFIELD: "I will solve" is the complex part of all of this. You can't say "I will solve" without an actual policy, which we were supposed to find out yesterday but that was canceled. We're supposed to find out next week what the policy is.

TOOBIN: But the real issue is - and Anderson, you could tell, was trying to ask this question and Trump was dancing around it. There are approximately 11 million undocumented illegal immigrants in the country. Most of them have not committed any crimes. What do you do with them? Because during the campaign, during the debates, which Dana was running the debates, they were saying - Trump was saying, we've got to get rid of them all. He said we're going to have a deportation force.

BANFIELD: Yes.

TOOBIN: Now he appears to be saying something different. I don't know exactly what that is -

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: You're exactly right.

TOOBIN: But what is it?

BASH: So you - so you just hit the nail on the head. The deportation force was something that a lot of the core, core, core supporters of Donald Trump -

BANFIELD: Loved it.

BASH: Who wanted everybody out no matter how old they are -

BANFIELD: Yes.

BASH: From however many months to however many years, out. BANFIELD: And those -

BASH: If you're here illegally. They wanted that.

BANFIELD: The cheers.

BASH: Right.

BANFIELD: The arenas, the cheers that when up -

BASH: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: When he talked about, get rid of them -

BASH: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: People went wild. They loved it.

BASH: And - but - but - but here's the but, it's a general election now and deportation force sounds like Jackbooted (ph) thugs. And they know that, you know, inside the Trump campaign, particularly the new version of the Trump campaign, trying to kind of, you know, right the ship, turn the ship around. And so you can see the struggle that's going on behind the scenes spilling out into the public, you know, with each day Trump trying to explain the core question, which is, what do you do with the people who are -

BANFIELD: It sounds like he's -

BASH: Decent members of society or somebody who's illegal who has a three-year-old -

BANFIELD: Dana, it sounds like he's learning it. He's learning it.

TOOBIN: But - but - but this is not - like, this was not some side issue in the primaries.

BASH: Right.

TOOBIN: I mean, again, going back to the debates -

BANFIELD: The issue.

BASH: Right.

TOOBIN: This is what he kept mocking Jeb Bush about.

BASH: Sure.

TOOBIN: Is that - because Jeb Bush was saying, you have to have some process and - and -

BANFIELD: I'm glad - I'm glad you brought him up.

TOOBIN: Well - so, anyway, yes.

BANFIELD: I've got his words right here.

TOOBIN: OK.

BANFIELD: In fact, there's this juxtaposition of words, because this last week, you know, Donald Trump has started bringing in words like "soften," "work with," "great undocumented immigrants already here," "don't want to break up families." These are Donald Trump's words this week. And Jeb Bush said back during the primaries, he will let you down. I think he said betray you. He will betray you. He will not keep up this effort to clean them all out. And this is what Jeb Bush said yesterday on a radio program. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (voice-over): I can only say that whatever his views are this morning, they might change this afternoon, and they were different than they were last night and they'll be different tomorrow. So I can't comment on his views because his views are - they seem to be ever changing depending on what crowd he's in front of. Sounds like a typical politician, by the way, where you get in front of one crowd and say one thing and then say something else to another crowd that may want to hear a different view. All the things that Donald Trump railed against, he seems to be morphing into. It's kind of disturbing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That's an exclusive interview that Rita Cosby got on New York Radio. So the question is this, it's not like we haven't heard Donald Trump change position on a few things before, and it keeps coming back to the idea that I could shoot a gun down Fifth Avenue and I wouldn't lose my supporters.

BASH: Right.

BANFIELD: Ann Coulter had something to say about that in her book "In Trump We Trust." She is a big Trump backer. And this is what she said. "There's nothing Trump can do that won't be forgiven, except change his immigration policies." Are we starting to see that effect out on the trail? Are we starting to see supporters say, wait, what?

BASH: Not yet. Not yet on the trail, but you are seeing Ann Coulter, Sarah Palin, who endorsed Donald Trump relatively early but has been conspicuously absent from the campaign trail for a very long time, she came out and said to "The Wall Street Journal" virtually the same thing. You know, he can't soften on immigration or else he's going to risk losing many of his core supporters.

So I think that as we discuss this, just on the raw politics of this, the challenge that he is having is staying with his core plan but having more palatable rhetoric and more palatable language to explain it because he wants to seem and come across as more tolerant to the persuadable Republican, never mind Trump supporters (ph) -

BANFIELD: I wonder if the map works, though. I wonder if that map works. TOOBIN: But - but -

BASH: And we don't know. We don't know.

BANFIELD: Yes.

TOOBIN: Well, I -

BASH: You can see the process churning right now.

TOOBIN: But I - I mean, I think Dana's right, that he's trying to change the harshness of his rhetoric.

[12:10:00] BASH: The (INAUDIBLE), right.

TOOBIN: But, I mean, at some level, the substance has to be clear, what do you do with the 11 million law abiding, non-citizens who are here without authorization? Do you throw them all out or don't they? President Obama put in this whole plan, DOCA (ph) and DOPA (ph). He did it administratively. The Supreme Court has blocked it. He - you know, Immigration reform, the law that passed the Senate, was supposed to deal with it. It never came up for a vote in the House. What do you do with these 11 million people? That is a factual question.

BANFIELD: Yes, Reince Priebus - Reince Priebus used the words legalization. And that is not amnesty necessarily unless you don't like the idea of any of those 11 million people being here. And there are a lot of people who don't like that idea.

BASH: But there's something else that I don't think we can lose sight of -

BANFIELD: Real quick.

BASH: Which Jeb Bush was trying to make a point of there, which is, people didn't just like Donald Trump because of his policy on immigration. But it's because they thought he was different. And the idea that he is doing the traditional politician thing, being on the right in the primaries and moving to the center in the general election -

BANFIELD: I think you're right.

BASH: That could risk -

BANFIELD: I think you're right.

BASH: Angering people, saying, wait a minute, I thought he was the guy that was telling us the truth?

BANFIELD: I heard - I heard people say that. So far, this week, when they're asked outside those rallies, I've heard people say, well, we're not really sure if he's going to do all the things he says. But the fact that he speaks so forcefully means at least he's going to be tough. So it remains to be seen whether this will work for him or not.

Dana Bash, Jeffrey Toobin, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

BASH: Thanks.

BANFIELD: Coming up next, there is fallout from the Stanford rape case involving that judge who handed down the widely criticized few months sentence. So he has decided he's going to leave the criminal court system, but at least one Stanford law professor says, not good enough. Why is that? What would be wrong with a civil judge? Would he have any kind of an effect that doesn't seem up to snuff for that Stanford law professor? She's going to tell us exactly what she thinks, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:15:42] BANFIELD: One week from today the former Stanford student who raped a young woman behind a dumpster while she was unconscious is set to be released from jail. Brock Turner is his name. You'll remember he is going to be a free man this time next Friday. Yes. That's when he starts serving just three years' probation. And while he does that, the judge who was behind that six-month jail sentence, which ultimately ended up just being a few months, the judge, Aaron Persky, is going to be moving on to civil cases only. Starting September 6th, Judge Persky will no longer hear criminal cases.

Our Dan Simon is following this story. He joins me live now.

This is not a punishment. Let's be super clear, Dan. Persky's not being punished. This is his choice. So, why? How did this happen?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ashleigh, this is the judge who seemed to realize that he had become a distraction. Obviously, he has been under intense scrutiny ever since this issue with Brock Turner. So he asked to be transferred and hear civil cases.

I want to read you a statement from the presiding judge in Santa Clara County. And it says, "while I firmly believe in Judge Persky's ability to serve in his current assignment, he has requested to be assigned to the civil division in which he previously served. Judge Persky believes the change will aid the public and the court by reducing the distractions that threaten to interfere with his ability to effectively discharge the duties of his current criminal assignment."

So, there you have it, the judge will now be hearing civil cases. But if he thought that this recall effort would cease, he is sorely mistaken. We now know - we're going to hear from your next guest that this recall effort will be full steam ahead, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: So, and remind me, because the news has been coming fast and furious since Brock Turner's case made headlines. But it was only just this week, I think on Monday, that there was also news Judge Aaron Persky had about stepping off a case, recusing himself, I think it was the Robert Chain (ph) case. It was a pornographer - a child pornographer or possession of child pornography. Remind me what happened in that circumstance.

SIMON: That's right. This was another distraction for the judge. This was a plumber who was ultimately convicted for possessing numerous images of child pornography. He got caught up in a sting. The judge sentenced this man to just four days in county jail when a study determined that normally convicts get six months in jail. And also the judge indicated that he would be willing to reduce the plumber's sentence to a misdemeanor. And, ultimately, that generated some attention. The judge said he was on vacation and was exposed to some publicity and ultimately it created some kind of family situation. He didn't say what that was, but ultimately he asked to be recused from the case, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Dan Simon reporting live from San Francisco for us. Thank you for that, Dan.

Dan just alluded to somebody who has made it a mission to see change here. Stanford law professor Michelle Dauber. She's been leading the charge to get Judge Aaron Persky recalled. She's head of the organization called Recall Judge Perky Campaign, apply named, and joins me now live.

Michelle, thank you for being with us.

So I can only assume this must have come as a surprise. Is it what you were looking for? Is it as much as you want?

MICHELE DAUBER, STANFORD LAW PROFESSOR: No. We are continuing with the recall campaign. We're, of course, relieved that he will not be hearing criminal cases, but this is only temporary. Judges in Santa Clara County rotate their assignments every year and he can come back to criminal court any time he chooses. Furthermore, a biased judge who does not understand sexual harassment and sexual violence is just as dangerous in civil court as in criminal court because many cases, for example, the Bill Cosby type litigation, women suing for sexual harassment or sexual assault are hurt in civil court. So we believe that he needs to be removed from the bench and we're proceeding ahead with the recall.

BANFIELD: So then - why do you think he did this? I mean if you are making this argument that, hey, civil court you can - you can do as much damage in civil court as you can criminal court if people perceive you to be biased. Why do you think he made this change?

[12:20:00] DAUBER: Well, I don't think there's any mystery here. We have been, as your reporter just indicated, very engaged in doing very thorough research into his record and bringing that record forward and sharing it with voters so that they can vote on an informed basis about his record. And I'm sure that as those very disturbing facts have come forward about his record in domestic violence, as well as sex crimes, he is not enjoying that publicity. But we feel the voters have a right to know this information.

BANFIELD: So, Michele, there are those in the legal community who laude Judge Persky and say he's very fair. He's got a long and esteemed record and that it isn't fair to pick one or two cases with details that perhaps are missing. What do you say to the people who stand by Judge Persky who are within his industry, who say he's not as bad as people make him out to be? DAUBER: Well, it isn't a matter of one or two cases. In fact, this

judge has a long history of judicial bias in cases involving sex crimes and violence against women. Some, at least one of these cases was while he was previously in civil court and that involved a 17- year-old girl who alleged that she was gang raped by members of a college baseball team and Judge Persky allowed the defendants to enter revealing photographs of her at a party more than a year after the assault into evidence. It was very prejudicial. Supposedly to show that she didn't have post-traumatic stress disorder because she was having fun at a party. What I would say to people who are, you know, supporting him is that, you know, this is a democracy. They have every right to support the candidate of their choice. We feel that when his full record is before the voters of Santa Clara County, they will select another candidate.

BANFIELD: And one other quick question for you. It didn't go lost on this team that we have on our calendar one week today Brock Turner is out. We're heading into Labor Day weekend and he's heading out of summer jail. It was only two months out of a six month sentence and I know that that really irks you, not only professionally, but personally. What do you have planned?

DAUBER: We are going to be having a rally at 10:00 a.m. on September the 2nd down in front of the jail. We'll have many speakers. One of the things that's happened as his record has come forward is that many elected officials have started to endorse the recall, such as the mayor of Palo Alto and members of Congress and other electives will be there speaking, as well as two survivors of sexual assault. So, you know, we are going to be there saying enough is enough. Women deserve justice. And we are not going to be satisfied until he is no longer a judge in our county.

BANFIELD: And what about Brock Turner? Is there an effort to follow him in his endeavors as he becomes a free person trying to put his life back together?

DAUBER: Well, we are not going to be engaged in that. I - I mean I think that this sentence was, you know, ridiculously short and I hope that he will not reoffend as a result of having not been held accountable for his actions. But that is, of course, a concern, that when someone is not held accountable, that they may not have learned the right lesson. Unfortunately, all he seems to have apologized for is drinking. He does not seem to have taken responsibility for sexual assault and should not, in my opinion, be released at this point.

BANFIELD: It will be interesting to see if he follows through on the statements that he made in court, to try to make good on some of the wrongs that he believes that he's committed once he's out.

Professor Dauber, thanks very much for being with us today and we'll continue to follow the story. Thank you.

DAUBER: Thank you, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Michele Dauber joining us live in California. Coming up next, Olympic swimmer Ryan Lochte now officially charged with falsely reporting a crime in Brazil. What does that mean? Does he have to go back there and answer to people in Rio, face a trial there, or could he be too busy with a brand-new gig on "Dancing with the Stars"? This story continues to get more bizarre. And by the way, are those charges fair when you look at the actual fact? You may be surprised.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:28:53] BANFIELD: Police in Rio de Janeiro are formally charging Ryan Lochte over that now infamous gas station visit. And they're accusing him of falsely reporting to police that he and his Olympic teammates had been robbed at gunpoint. Just moments ago, this went all the way to the White House, as the White House weighed in on the possibility of actual extradition.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The United States will certainly adhere to the terms of any extradition treaty that we sign with any country in the world. Obviously, as we've discussed in a very different context, we remain committed to following those guidelines assiduously.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Following those guidelines assiduously.

Here's someone who has some guidelines, Christine Brennan. She's with CNN Sports but she's an analyst and a columnist for "USA Today."

[12:29:46] And, Christine, your paper did some really exhaustive investigative work while they were down in Rio. On this very topic, they sent out investigators to the scene. They went over the documents. And I want to read for our audience, if I can, the actual penal code in Brazil under which Lochte's being charged.