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Donald Trump Reaching out to African-Americans; Huma Abedin Separating from Anthony Weiner After Latest Sexting Scandal; Isaiah Thomas on Violence in Chicago; History of Athletes Protesting. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired August 29, 2016 - 23:00   ET



[23:02:59] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. And we're back now with Bishop Wayne Jackson, Bruce LeVell, and Charles Blow.

So Bishop, you were going to respond to Charles saying why didn't he do this from the very beginning, reach out to African-Americans just only now in the last minutes of the campaign that he needs minority voters that he is reaching out. It is perceived by many who are sitting back and watching those.

WAYNE JACKSON, FOUNDER AND PRES., THE IMPACT NETWORK: No, this is not true. The Trump campaign for I think about the past, at least two months, I know a month and a half, they had been investigated in the Impact Network and myself. And people around the country know the integrity I walk in and what I stand for. I'm not selling my soul for anybody. I mean, I want to stand for what's true. I mean, I'm a father. I'm a husband of 36 years. I got nine children and I have 19 grandchildren.

So, you know, I've done my part when God told Adam to be fruitful and multiply. I did that part. I kept that commandment.

But what I'm saying in essence is this, is that, you know, we got to see the future of our children. You know, I have a campaign going on that the states, "No vote. No voice". And we're trying to engage people in this voting process because a lot of people are really turned off.

LEMON: OK. Let me ask you this. Speaking of this process, does it bother you at all, the Birther Movement, against the president? The Central Park Five ...


LEMON: .. being sued for, you know, unfair housing practices for ...

JACKSON: Well, let me -- let me say this. I voted for Obama twice. My wife loves President Obama. I respect him as a president. I respect him as a husband and a father and, you know, and being an intellectual, how may -- I respect him. So, you know, President Obama ...

LEMON: But Donald Trump ...


LEMON: The question was about Donald Trump.

JACKSON: OK. Well, you're talking about -- well, I stand back just saying this, is that, you know, there's ...

[23:05:02] In a lot of the African-Americans' hearts that feel that, you know, these are things that didn't go well with us. Period. Because we love our first African-American President and ...

LEMON: Are you willing to overlook those things from his testaments, things he's said?

JACKSON: Well, because I want engage -- yeah, because I want to engage. See, we're too emotional and what we're having now, we're having people -- I have people facebooking me, tweeting me, "What are you doing? Why are you doing this?" But I feel that if Donald Trump wants to layout his policies then we need to engage with him and we need to find out what he's going to do when he if, you know, if he becomes president, because one of them is going to become president, Hillary or Mr. Trump. So we better make sure not only Donald Trump, but Senator or Secretary Clinton, you know, give us, you know, some answers because -- and, look, under the Bill Clinton administration, I prospered very well and a lot of people prospered very well. And I've been to the White House several times, you know, when he was president. So, I'm saying this because this is not about putting Donald Trump up and putting Hillary Clinton down. This is about making sure that we are engaging both of them to make sure what's going to happen in our community if one of them becomes president.

LEMON: OK. Charles, you seem skeptical. Go ahead.

CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, no, but I mean this is the thing. He's had a campaign, right? You've had a chance to do this. And you can't make some sort of false equivalency that they're both kind of the same and that the democrats and republicans are somehow sort of the same and that they're kind of -- there's a pox in both their houses. And we just have to figure out which is the less of the evils among the democrats and republicans. No. There are, right now, 20-plus states implementing voter restrictions to try to take -- to reduce the number of people who can vote, which we know will have a disproportionate impact on poor and minority communities including black people.

We know that we have seen over the last, you know, four or five years people around the country trying to implement drug testing for, you know, kind of welfare in states. Even though all the research says it's a waste of money that people who receive welfare don't receive it in any -- or don't use drugs in any greater amount of numbers than people who don't. None of that. But it is a direct way of appealing to a particular kind of sentiment and people think that more black people are on welfare than other people. I mean, these are not the same kinds of parties. These are just ...

LEMON: What specifically does that have to do with Trump?

BLOW: And trying to pretend that they are. Pretend and pretend that the democrats have failed you and, therefore, you need to turn away from that. It takes away from the fact that ...

LEMON: Well, they have.

BLOW: ... the republicans are actively engaged in trying to take away your rights, actively engaged in trying to suppress you right now.

LEMON: And specifically to Donald Trump, how was that now? How was that?

BLOW: No, this is the pitch -- he is making two pitches. One is your life is so horrible that I'm the only person who can fix it. The second is the Democratic Party has failed you and what do you have to lose by turning to Republican Party?

LEMON: Yeah.

BLOW: Both of those things have enormous problems. Enormous problems.

LEMON: Bruce?

JACKSON: Well, let me say this now ...

LEMON: Bishop, can we let Bruce just weigh in?

JACKSON: Yes, yes.

LEMON: Go ahead, Bruce.

BRUCE LEVELL, NATIONAL DIVERSITY COALITION FOR TRUMP: Well, I just want to clarify some things especially on the Birther and I know you don't agree with me on this, Don. We've had this before. The Birther Movement came from the Hillary campaign, the whisper in 2007 with Biden.

LEMON: But there's no evidence that that is true. Every fact check says that's not true. And I've actually asked her about it and it -- there's no ...

LEVELL: Of course she would say she don't do that.

LEMON: There's no direct evidence.

LEVELL: Of course she would.

LEMON: All right. Bruce, I'd like to deal with facts here. There is no correct evidence and we've gone over and over and over this.

LEVELL: Respectfully disagree.

LEMON: And that it was Donald Trump who ...

LEVELL: Respectfully disagree.

LEMON: ... was the author of this Birther Movement.

LEVELL: I disagree. Also in '73 they keep doing the sound bite about unfair housing. You know, there was no merit to that justice deal and also there's no -- "New York Times" reported there was no evidence that Donald Trump was gearing tenants, you know, to and from his places. That's totally false. And I witched (ph) the left or whoever keeps putting the same old lie out in front of the American people because it's a lie.

LEMON: Well, the Justice Department investigated that it was settled. He promised, he and his father promised to reach out ...

LEVELL: With no presence.

LEMON: Reach out to -- let me finish.


LEMON: Reach out to minority tenants, people who were going to lease in those buildings and promised to do so (ph). And then three years later, the Justice Department says they weren't living up, so they asked them to do it again. And then there is no evidence as to what happened after that, the 301 quote there (ph)

LEVELL: Well, there's no evidence of Donald Trump being -- steering tenants away out being prejudiced over one particular ethnic group or another, Don.

[23:10:06] And I think that's fair for the American people to understand that Donald Trump is not like that.


LEVELL: So, I just want to clarify that because I know it keeps coming up.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, Bruce. Thank you very much. Bishop, will you come back after the meeting?

JACKSON: Yes. Don, let me say one quick thing.

LEMON: All right. You're going to get me in trouble. Go ahead.

JACKSON: There is -- OK. Just one quick second. I found out that there are some African-Americans out there that not vocally saying they're supporting Donald Trump but they are. And some of these are pastors. I was surprised by the number of them that's questioning, you know, everything.

So I'm not saying that one person is bad. I'm not going to demonize none of them. What we want to do on Impact Network, we want to engage both of them to see what's right for our community. LEMON: OK.

JACKSON: You say you're going to make our community better, let's see how you're going to do it.

LEMON: I got to go. Please come back. Tell your wife I'm sorry for calling you Dwyane. Obviously Dwyane Wade is on my brain.

LEVELL: Dwyane Wade.

LEMON: We're talking about that.


JACKSON: I told you I'm going to say a prayer for you tonight.

LEVELL: Say a prayer for all of us.

LEMON: Thank you, Mr. Jackson. All right. Bishop, thank you very much. Come back. Charles, thank you, Bruce, as well.

When we come right back, just the Clinton campaign. The Clinton campaign doesn't need what it doesn't need. The candidate's right- hand woman, Huma Abedin said to be furious and sickened in announcing her separation from former Congressman Anthony Weiner. He's alleged sexting partner, a Trump supporter.


[23:15:03] LEMON: Hillary Clinton's right-hand woman Huma Abedin is separating from her husband Anthony Weiner in a wake of he's latest sexting scandal.

Here to discuss, CNN Commentator and Legal Analyst Mel Robbins, and Scottie Nell Hughes, a Trump supporter and Political Editor of

Good to have both of you on. Mel, I'm going to start with you. According to two sources Huma Abedin was "furious and sickened" by this picture who's on the front page of the "New York Post" this morning. What on earth was Anthony Weiner thinking?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR AND LEGAL ANALYST: What was he thinking? I'm not sure what he was thinking. But what he was doing was disgusting. You know, look, Don, I think the deal here is this a guy that's done this not once, which cost him to seat in congress, not twice, which cost him his attempt to run for mayor, but three times which is now finally cost him his marriage. I think he was thinking that he can't stand the fact that his wife is more powerful than he is and that he's going to exert his power in the only way he has left, which is through these disgusting text. I mean, the whole thing, it's stranger than fiction, frankly.

LEMON: It boggles the mind. I have to ask you as an attorney. Did you see any legal issues that play here that he is, you know, in a sexually suggestive photo with his son also in the frame? ROBBINS: Criminally, definitely not because the child's not in danger and in the State of New York, you've got the -- there to be the child pornography laws, the child has to be either simulating or engaged in the sex act and clearly the child is not. Will he be investigated by child services? Probably. But there's no evidence of any endangerment or neglect. So I can't imagine that this is going to amount to anything legally, Don.

LEMON: I have to apologize, Scottie. Scottie Nell, we're both looking at that picture going like, "What is ...

SCOTTIE NELL HUGHES, TRUMP SUPPORTER: I mean does Anthony not know the word filter or snapchat? Two words that I think he shouldn't think. I mean, that face, alone, how he thought that was sexy in any form. I have to tell you that that definitely should be used for an abstinence ad right there.

LEMON: Trump was asked about the scandal on the Dori Monson Radio Show today attempting to leak the scandal to Hillary Clinton's right- hand woman and talking about judgment. What do you think?

HUGHES: Well, you know, obviously, professionally, I don't have much to say about Huma. Personally, my heart burst out for her. This is a hard scandal as a mother and wife. But I think you have -- and we know that other side, those are the R enemies, will use they can, any weakness they can find. Obviously, we have a big weakness in Anthony Weiner. And so I would hope since Huma does have access being Hillary Clinton's close confidant and a friend and professionally around that they would not sit there and use this and possibly down the road if she was elected president. Huma had access in the White House. Could this be used as possible blackmail material? Nobody wants this out there, especially a picture like that out there in the main media, and unfortunately maybe we got lucky and caught this now.

LEMON: But he's saying specifically this goes to Hillary Clinton's judgment to have someone, you know, Huma Abedin, who's close to her, have a husband like him and she had access to classified information and that somehow he knew about classified information by being a spouse. Do you think that works?

HUGHES: Well, look at -- and you know, Huma has been part of the Hillary Clinton camp since '94. So I -- there's been no evidence while Hillary Clinton was secretary of state that this might have happen. But there's a lot -- it might have been a part of this 30,000 e-mails. We don't know. And so I think -- I think we're opening a Pandora's Box. If we start looking into campaign and campaign stuffs and family records, I think we could do a whole, you know, network on that.

LEMON: Mel, how does this affect Hillary Clinton's campaign and do you think this goes to her judgment?

ROBBINS: Absolutely not. I don't think it affects it at all. The only thing that would have affected is if she'd given him a third chance. The fact that she's kicked him to the curb makes it clear that the marriage is over. I think it's ridiculous and a stretch to try to attach any connection to her server to this. It shows that Trump is grasping for anything and there're a lot of desperate guys in this story, Don.

LEMON: Do you think that she isn't expected to address this sexting scandal at a smart move, Mel?

ROBBINS: I don't think she should. I think she should do what Trump does, which is not to talk about the issues that really confront him. I think he should just keep -- they should just move on. This is a private issue between those two. Weiner is clearly a scumbag and I think she needs to move on with her life and get this marriage over, put it behind her. It has nothing to do with the campaign. And she should keep it that way by not addressing it.

LEMON: Do you think that she should address this? Do you think the Clinton campaign should address this?

HUGHES: On one hand, she could use this as an advantage. I think, you know, a lot of -- she should take a lot of criticism for standing by bill Clinton after he's amidst (ph) of infidelity. A lot of people said that, "You know you need to kick him to the curb." So, she then say, "You know what? I see both sides in both stories and it infected individual woman what's best for her family." So, she could actually use this as an opportunity to encourage.

But to that address, I think it's also kind of karma. Remember last week we were talking about Steve Bannon and all of his personal history. Now, we've got -- I mean, can any of these candidates be like original on their own and create their own scandals without copycatting each other?

LEMON: I think if we talked about Steve Bannon and the domestic thing once, maybe I have one question to Kayleigh.

[23:20:01] I remember having a question. I'm not even sure I asked her about it because it's a personal issue from years ago which he has denied that her wife said (ph). So that's a different thing.

But the issue is Steve Bannon was the whole Breitbart thing. But something tells me if you were advising a candidate, you would tell them shut up. You would them?

HUGHES: I honestly, you know, I think this opens a Pandora's Box. But me, all these folks don't need to be talking about technology or servers.

LEMON: Yeah. Let her address it but if you were advising, you know, you'd be like, "No way, don't do it." All right. Thank you. I appreciate it, both of you, Scottie and Mel.

When we come right back, Hall of Famer Isaiah Thomas on violence in Chicago and Donald Trump, plus, the fires toward (ph) NFL Star Colin Kaepernick's refusal to stand up for the flag, a country he says oppresses black people and people of color. And he is not the first to protest.

I want you listen to Tommie Smith, the Olympic Gold Medalist, who raised his fist in protest back in 1968.


TOMMIE SMITH, FORMER TRACK AND FIELD ATHLETE: Colin Kaepernick, age 28, professional football player, making money, very viable in the system, is risking his future for something he really believed in.



[23:25:03] LEMON: This is a Monday night headline that is becoming unfortunately all too familiar. A deadly weekend in Chicago. Dozens of shootings. And at least eight people killed. One of them, one of them tragically a young mother, the cousin of NBA Star Dwyane Wade.

And I want to talk about this now with basketball Hall of Famer Isaiah Thomas and friend. Thank you very much.


LEMON: Good to have you. You doing okay? How's your wife, family?

THOMAS: Everybody's doing good. Thank you

LEMON: Everybody's good. Dwyane Wade, good friend of yours.


LEMON: His cousin, her name is Nykea Aldridge, a mother of four, pushing one of her children in stroller in Chicago, shot on Friday night and killed. How is the family? How is Dwyane doing and the family doing tonight?

THOMAS: Well, surprisingly they're doing quite well in terms of -- I spoke to his agent, Henry Thomas. And, you know, Dwyane has been on the forefront of this type of movement in terms of police brutality, speaking out against violence in all communities for a long time. He and his mom, they're pillars in community along with father Pfleger.

So, to have this hit so close to home, particularly on a night right after we had such a positive coming together and talking in Chicago about police violence, about community violence, and about trying to come together. To have this hit so close to home, we all feel for him, but knowing Dwyane and his family the way we all do, we know that they're going to take this and lead from it and bring our community closer together.

LEMON: And there's a foundation in Chicago. I remember years ago, right, as I was leaving Chicago, I was an anchor there and coming to work with CNN, I emceed one of his foundation events and they do really great work in Chicago.

It's been a number of years, but I do, you know, we're talking about lives. I'm just -- let me give you some of the numbers here, OK? What makes all of this worse is this tragic shooting this weekend. And Chicago P.D. says there were 72 shootings, 8 fatalities, and as of midnight Sunday, there were 459 murders so far this year. How do we fix this, Isaiah?

THOMAS: You know, there's -- this has been a problem in all communities for a long time, particularly in poverty-stricken communities. And how do we fix it? We always talk about the need for jobs, the need for an employment, the need for, you know, adequate food, and just opening up recreation centers where all kids can come and play, get to know each.

When you look at the educational system, some of our educational systems in terms of the schools are broken. They need to be fixed.

So having access to just quality of life and a lot of our kids in these communities, they're just asking for a chance, they're asking for hope, they're asking to be able to see and live that American dream that we all talk about.

And, you know, just to give you an example, my first 10 years of life on the west side of Chicago, in '66 Martin Luther King visited Chicago and my mom marched with him in the Cicero March, and in '68 Martin Luther King died, right? The Chicago riots break out. And I remember we were on congress in Homan and the military tank pulled us off the expressway and we were occupied for, you know, two to three days. In '69, Fred Hampton gets killed.

LEMON: Right.

THOMAS: So, those were my first 10 years of life dealing with Chicago and the Chicago police and policing in that community.

So what happened now, I believe, under Superintendent Johnson is that, you know, now you're getting feedback, now you're getting community relations, now you're getting people to talk. And in the same situation, in the same environment, my brother became a police officer. I got two nephews that are police officers now. So when we -- when the community continues to ask for people who look like us, who grew up in our communities, who can police our communities, then we can start having communication and we can open up the dialogue. And when we started opening up the dialogue and people communicate and talk, then we move our country further.

LEMON: There's not a lot of that going on lately because even when you want to talk to certain members of law enforcement, they become angry and, you know, defensive, which is just surprising to me, especially considering the environment that we're in, it would seem like it would be open to suggestions and doing what you said. And because of the political environment, here is what republican presidential candidate Donald Trump tweeted out about Nykea Aldridge's death. He said "Dwyane Wade's cousin was shot and killed walking her baby in Chicago. Just what I have been saying, African-Americans will vote Trump."

[23:30:03] I've heard that before from him, from law enforcement. Oh, I predicted this. I knew this is going to happen. You're like -- is that how you respond to this? What's your reaction to this? THOMAS: We need compassion and leadership in these difficult times. And what -- where we need to go from here is the understanding of family, forgiveness, and also how do we move forward. We don't need to politicize these murders. We don't need to politicize this event. But we do need to show leadership and lead from this in how we bring this country together, in how we keep giving people the opportunity to really live this American dream.

LEMON: Do you think trump can fix this? Do you think he's the one to show leadership?

THOMAS: I see where -- I need to be careful here.

LEMON: You're a straight shooter but ...

THOMAS: Yeah. But, no, I'll be straight and I don't know if he can. I know Hillary's record in terms of what she's being done in the forefront of African-American issues for a very long time. It's documented. It's there. You can go back and you can look at what she was doing in the '70s, in the '80s, in the '90s, what she was fighting for. Trump is new on the scene so we have to see what he's saying and really listen to what he's saying.

LEMON: That's a very diplomatic answer but it's real.


LEMON: Thank you. Always a pleasure.

THOMAS: Always.

LEMON: I appreciate you coming on.

THOMAS: Thank you.

LEMON: All right. My regards to your family. Thank you.

Up next, the firestorm over NFL star, Colin Kaepernick's protest. I'm going to talk with one of the men who raised his fist to protest at the Mexico City Olympics back in 1968.



LEMON: The decision by 49ers quarterback, Colin Kaepernick, to sit during the national anthem is one of many moments of personal protests by American athletes over the years. His protest is being compared to this one. It's at the 1968 Olympics in Mexico City during the height of the Civil Rights Movement, Americans athletes, Tommie Smith and John Carlos, raising their black-gloved fist as a silent symbol of black power and human rights. I want to talk about it now with Tommie Smith, the Olympic gold medalist in that famous picture. It's great to have you here tonight. You doing okay?

SMITH: I'm doing fine, Don. Thank you. How are you today? LEMON: I'm doing very well. In this very famous photo, you were the gold medalist here, John Carlos won the bronze. It was a 200-meter sprint. Now I want you to take a listen to San Francisco 49ers quarterback, Colin Kaepernick, on Sunday.


COLIN KAEPERNICK, SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS QUARTERBACK: I'll continue to sit. I'm going to continue to stand with the people that are being oppressed. To me, this is something that has to change. And when there's significant change and I feel like that flag represents what it's supposed to represent and this country is representing people the way that it's supposed to, I'll stand. This stand wasn't for me. This stand wasn't because I feel like I'm being put down in any kind of way. This is because I'm seeing things happen to people that don't have a voice. It brings awareness. Everybody knows what's going on and this sheds more light on it.


LEMON: Mr. Smith, what's your reaction when you see that almost 50 years have passed since the Mexico games and black athletes continue to protest? Similar ...

SMITH: Utterly amazing. The need to shadow something that came to fruition 48-plus years ago and young people standing up for the right, for that amendment to continue to move toward a betterment of a society which doesn't recognize everyone with parity or equality. And this Colin Kaepernick, age 88, a professional football player, making money, very viable in the system, is risking his future for something he really believed in. He said very forthright that it's not for me, but it's for those who don't have a platform. My words resonate across the nation to those who don't have a platform that I'm standing here in solidarity for you because the need is for all people, not just those with money.

LEMON: Did you feel the same way -- were you worried that you would face the sort of criticism that you did, that you may not have a future as an athlete? Because you got a lot of criticism back in 1968.

SMITH: Well, Don, you know, the fight for the Olympic project for human rights and what it means started way before 1968. It started early '67, to route the need to move forward. And we had to encounter abuse from other people plus the athletes we were going forward to educate then on why we were doing it. It wasn't a militant move. It wasn't a move of hate. But we thought it was a move to solidify the need for young men, especially black men, to involve themselves in something that's proactive, something that they can feel viable in doing. And I think Colin is doing basically the same thing but the people have changed minds over the years and are much more degrading when someone stands up, especially in this type of arena, to use a gap that has been going on for many years. That bridge needed crossing and I think he's making the step to do that. The man doesn't hate. He's just trying to reveal a need which is viable to move forward. LEMON: Let me read this. This is from the 49ers. They released two statements. One of them said, "In respecting such American principles as freedom of religion and freedom of expression, we recognize the right of an individual to choose to participate, or not, in our celebration of the national anthem." My question is, his protest, do you think it's disrespectful? Do you think he's doing the right thing, right?

SMITH: I believe Colin in his own mind is doing the right thing for the motivation of people to understand the need for change.

[23:40:01] And I'm very sure that his calling for this particular action using the flag as a demonstration that that is not relevant to everyone as it is to those who can pay for their idealistic attitudes in the system. He's on the road for the people, those who cannot be a talent in the field of communicating a need to a -- for parity or equality.

LEMON: He has a platform and to many people, they don't, and he's the voice ...

SMITH: Many people, it's not a good platform because it's using red, white and blue.

LEMON: Yeah.

SMITH: But is what the mainstream of his moving forward is, the country, not a people, but the country for all people. And yes, what he did, it was very controversial, as in '68, but who is going to be responsible for an accurate move towards solidarity unless you are heard?

LEMON: We are ...

SMITH: Number one, as football player, and number two, as a person who cares about the poor.

LEMON: We're in this, you know, very contentious political season now. It's coming down to the wires who's going to be president. You know one candidate weighed in today, Donald Trump. This is KIRO Radio. Listen to this.

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I have followed it, and I think it's -- I think it's personally not a good thing. I think it's a terrible thing. And, you know, he'll -- maybe should find a country that works better for him. Let him try. It won't happen.

LEMON: What's your reaction, find another country?

SMITH: Yeah. Well, Don can buy a country so he can talk his trash about someone who's trying to help the poor people. And as far as leaving this country, I was told the same thing back in the 1968 Olympic Game. Take this, go back to Africa. We hope the plane crashes on the way. There are still insidious idealist idiots like Donald Trump who criticizes those who are trying to help people who he stomp on. And, Don, you know this as well as anyone else, your need is for money and not for the love of people.

LEMON: Yeah. I want to ask you about this. I want you to take look at some of the pictures. These are black athletes protesting. Some of them not protesting. Lebron James wearing a T-shirt saying, "I can't breathe" in reference to Eric Garner's death. WNBA players, in black lives matter t-shirts. St. Louis Rams protesting the grand jury decision in Ferguson, Missouri with the hands up of don't shoot gesture. Gymnast, Gabby Douglas at the Rio Olympics, she didn't put her hand over her heart during the anthem causing an uproar. She wasn't even protesting. And then, do you think black athletes face harsher criticism when they protest or do things that are perceived as protests even when they're not?

SMITH: It's the fact black athletes are look upon on much more harshly than anyone else. People like Dwyane, Jordan, James, not an athlete but certainly a people who care about others, that's actor, Jesse Williams, Anthony Ervin. We can go on and on about people. But you look where it's coming from, coming from the athletic or the acting world. And there's a preponderance of blacks in those situations. So when it comes to making a change and moving in another direction, and becomes a black, people will always criticize that because we are moving forward. We're the ones that's being tattered in the system. Therefore, we have to speak up in those realms. We can't go where Donald go because Donald don't go, he stomps. I realize the attitude of people who are sick. They need hospitalization. They don't need to be out talking about those who are trying to help the America or the American flag move forward.

LEMON: Yeah.

SMITH: Kaepernick is American. And he said earlier today, Don, that, you know, he was adopted. He's biracial. But he understands because he was raised in the black world.

LEMON: Yeah.

SMITH: So he looks the way he looks but his action reveals a black person who is honestly accountable for where he comes from.

LEMON: Yeah. And it's fortunate. We're all fortunate to live in a country where you can protest your government.

SMITH: Sure. You can't ...

LEMON: Protest the actions of your government. Can I ask you a question?

SMITH: I've been trying to hit on that.

LEMON: Can I ask you a question? The black glove and socks, where are they now?

SMITH: I think my son ate -- my little son who was 6 months old ate the gloves and I wore the socks that winter because my feet were cold in San Jose. So -- and I did not offer my feelings on the victory stand because I thought it was going to be a historical moment. I did it because it was from the heart and I thought it was needed for people because I know the people from which I came who needed something to rely on.

LEMON: Yeah.

SMITH: And this is what Tommie Smith did from -- for the heart and not the buck.

LEMON: Tommie Smith, I could talk to you all day but I have to go. Thank you so much, sir.

SMITH: You're welcome, Don. Take care of yourself, son.

[23:45:00] LEMON: Thank you. You as well.

Coming up, it's a battle of doctors' notes. Donald Trump issues a challenge to Hillary Clinton.


LEMON: Let's discuss now, is there a double standard when it comes to black athletes speaking out? Back with me, Symone Sanders, Kevin Madden, John Phillips, and Betsy McCaughey. My panel is back. So Colin Kaepernick said that he sat down during the national anthem to call attention to discrimination in black communities. Here it is.


KAEPERNICK: I mean, I've had times where one of my roommates was moving out of a house in college and because we were the only black people in that neighborhood, the cops got called and all of us had guns drawn on us. I mean, he came in the house without knocking, guns drawn on one of my teammates and roommates. So, I have experienced this. People close to me have experienced this. This isn't something that's a one-off case here, a one-off case there. This has become habitual. It's become a habit. So, it's something that needs to be addressed.


LEMON: Symone, I understand that you're angry that people are even questioning his patriotism?

SYMONE SANDERS, FORMER NATIONAL PRESS SECRETARY TO BERNIE SANDERS: Yes. You know what, Ryan Lochte is an international embarrassment and nobody questions his patriotism.

[23:50:03] Protest is part of the American fabric. Our country was founded via protest. And he has the -- Colin has the absolute right to protest and if this is form, he should do it. And secondly, I'm glad that he's speaking up and speaking out against what we know is happening in our country. And two, talking about his experiences of racism, his experiences with police officers, because we need to have these candid conversations and folks need to know that this post- racial society that people think we live in is not what it really is. And there are real thinks happening out there. LEMON: And, Betsy, you said although he has the right to protest, it's so disrespectful. But isn't that his right as an American citizen?

BETSY MCCAUGHEY, TRUMP ECONOMIC ADVISOR: Absolutely, it is his First Amendment right. I think the bigger issue here, and it really brings in the tragedy that happened in Chicago this week with the shooting of the mother of four children and the large number of homicides in Chicago, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Los Angeles, all have seen a huge surge in homicides this year. And it is directly related to the less attack on policing. And that's what I'm most disturbed about. The vilification of police officers has led to discouragement policing in our inner cities where people need law and order. And one of the reasons I find Donald Trump's approach on this so promising is he has assured the black community in the inner city that he will support policing, fair policing, but adequate policing, and he will use as one of his helpers, one of his advisers, Mayor Giuliani, who made New York City the safest largest city in America.

LEMON: Okay, but hold on, hold on, hold on.


LEMON: There is no -- just so again, we like facts on this show. People may get upset by it. There is no direct evidence that puts the Black Lives Matter Movement in ...

MCCAUGHEY: You're wrong, you're wrong. Heather McDonald at the Manhattan Institute and others have shown that because of the vilification of blacks, black police officers, black leaders in the police department have said that police are discouraged from active -- proactive policing. They are policing less ...

LEMON: That is an assumption on ...

SANDERS: Don, I just want to jump in and say something really quick.

MCCAUGHEY: No, it's not an assumption, it is documented.

SANDERS: This is absolutely ridiculous.

MCCAUGHEY: Thirty percent increase in homicide in Chicago this year. Increase in homicides in Cincinnati, Baltimore, Los Angeles, it's called the Ferguson effect, and it well0documented by scholars who have looked at it.

LEMON: Go ahead.

SANDERS: Can I respond really quick to something that Betsy said? So, no, the movement is not attacking police officers. Colin Kaepernick's protest is not an attack on police officers.

MCCAUGHEY: I heard him.

SANDERS: There is no real -- pardon me. There is a real issue in this country when black and brown people are disproportionately targeted in their own communities. There is a real issue when time after time the people that are gunned down in the street are black men and black women. There is a real issue that we keep talking about.

MCCAUGHEY: They're being gunned down by blacks.

SANDERS: There is a real issue that we keep talking about, Nykea Aldridge on this show and on other networks and we're not using her name. We're calling as Dwyane Wade's cousin. We need to say her name. So now, Colin Kaepernick is, one, he's well within his rights but, two, he's not vilifying police officers. The majority of police officers do amazing work in this community but we also have to address those police officers that don't. We need to talk about police accountability.

LEMON: OK, I ...

SANDERS: We need to put real policies in place.

MCCAUGHEY: Yes. I would just like to cite the work of Professor Roland Fowler at Harvard University. He just published a study that demonstrates that police officers are not more likely to shoot ...

LEMON: We talked about that study, Betsy, on this network and it is a study that has by many is not seem as a legitimate study because of the size. It is a small study, 10 police departments around the country. We've done at least ...

MCCAUGHEY: Ten police departments but here ...

LEMON: But we've a ...


MCCAUGHEY: ... with no data at all.

LEMON: OK, I just want you to know. We did ...

SANDERS: We can't just name Harvard and pretend that because it's Harvard that means that legitimate.

LEMON: Standby, Symone. We've done extensive research, we did a town hall on this and all the facts that I'm stating to you are indeed fact. This is not opinion. So go ahead, Kevin. Will you please weigh in on this?

KEVIN MADDEN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, I think there are legitimate concerns and criticisms on both sides. I think the question that I ask related to Colin Kaepernick's stance is, I think Symone -- excuse me. I think Symone is right. He absolutely has a right to his opinion and a right to express that opinion. That is the American way, just the same way that those who criticize him have that same right.

I think that question is whether or not it's going to create a dialogue that is going to help solve some of the problems. I think it certainly has elevated the issue. It certainly has people talking about it. But is it going to be one that fosters, you know, increased cooperation by those that have legitimate criticisms on both sides? I hope that's the case. I think a lot of young people who look up to Colin Kaepernick, they may look at this issue in a new way. There are a lot of sports fans that maybe have been blind to this or don't see it through the -- they see a very wealthy athlete and they would think, "Well, he shouldn't have any problems."

[23:55:01] Well, that's not the case. Just because somebody has a bunch of money now and has signed a professional athletic contract -- a professional contract to play athletics doesn't mean that their experiences or some of the problems that they see in the community go away. So ideally, we'll foster more cooperation.

LEMON: John ...


LEMON: ... Betsy and Symone and Kevin ate up all your time, so quickly, if you can.

PHILLIPS: I'm surprised that Colin doesn't take any opportunity he has to get off the bench. And I think if we're going to celebrate the First Amendment, his expression of whatever he thinks, it should be across the board. When the Dallas Cowboys wanted to put pads or signs on their uniform in honor of the Dallas police officers that were shot and killed, they said, "No, no, no, we're apolitical."

LEMON: Yeah.

PHILLIPS: Got to let everyone do it.

LEMON: All right. Thank you all. I appreciate it. We'll be right back.


LEMON: Before we leave tonight, I want to take a moment to pay tribute to legendary funnyman, Gene Wilder. He died today at the age of 83 due to complications from Alzheimer's disease. Wilder is best known for his movies with director, Mel Brooks including "Young Frankenstein" and "Blazing Saddles". But for a lot of people, his most beloved role is in "Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory".


GENE WILDER, ACTOR: There is no life I know to compare with your imagination.

[24:00:07] Living there, you'll be free if you truly wish to be.