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Aired August 30, 2016 - 14:00:00   ET


[14:00:10] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Tonight, they call him, "Duterte Harry" the top law and order Rodrigo Duterte of the Philippines. But what

will key ally President Obama tell him about human rights and extrajudicial killing when they meet for the first time? I hear from two Philippine

senators, one a loyalist and a defender. The other, the president's toughest critic.


ALAN PETER CAYETANO, PHILIPPINE SENATOR: The war on drugs is not a war on life. It's not a war to take life. But it's a war to save lives.

LEILA DE LIMA, PHILIPPINE SENATOR: There should not be shortcuts to delivery of justice. There should be no shortcuts in trying to achieve law

and order in our society.


AMANPOUR: Plus from bikini to burkini. Is the row of a women's beachwear just a storm in a D cup? We take you to Paris as an exhibition celebrates

70 years of the iconic swimsuit.

Good evening, everyone. And welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

Right from the get go, his inauguration exactly two months ago, the Philippine president Rodrigo Duterte promised war -- war on drugs and

everyone who pushes them.


RODRIGO DUTERTE, PRESIDENT OF THE PHILIPPINES: The ride will be rough, but come and join me just the same. Together, shoulder to shoulder, let us

take the first wobbly steps in this quest.


AMANPOUR: And the ride has been rough. Police figures show that at least 1900 people have been killed since he took office. Of which more than 700

were at the hands of the police.


DUTERTE: We will not stop until the last drug lord, the last financer, and the last pusher have surrendered or put behind bars.


Or below the ground, if they so wish.



AMANPOUR: And many have ended up below the ground, shot down in the streets and covered with signs like this. "I'm a pusher." This one reads.

"Chinese drug lord," reads another.

The U.N. says the government is engaging in extrajudicial killings, and that drug charges must be, quote, "Judged in a court of law, not by gunmen

on the streets."

President Duterte's tough guy tactics are hugely popular on the streets with voters, but they have also brought scathing criticism from parliament.

I've been speaking to people on both sides of the debate.

First, Senator Alan Peter Cayetano, a fierce Duterte backer who says this violent period of law and order is a necessary phase.

Senator, welcome to the program. And thanks for joining us from Manila.

As you know, your President Duterte is causing all sorts of shock and horror and tremors around the world with the current war on drugs.

What is it that you say to the critics, including the United States, including the United Nations who are asking the Philippines to abide by

international human rights law?

CAYETANO: Well, first of all, it's an honor to be on your show. Thank you for having me.

There is a big, big problem in the Philippines which is the drug situation. Families don't feel safe. We have 10 million Filipinos abroad trying to

feed their families and make enough money to send their children to school. But we have three to seven million Filipinos who are hooked on drugs.

Three million who are addicted to it, and something has to be done, and our president is -- has started to do something about it. It is bearing fruit.

What do we tell the critics? Please come here. Don't just read the reports. Because there are people out to discredit him that are using the

words extrajudicial killing, summary killing, vigilante killings very loosely.

We value the sanctity of life. We are Christians, Muslims. We're very religious people. We value each and every life.

AMANPOUR: You question the idea of extrajudicial killings, but your own police force has said that in the two months, and it's exactly two months,

since President Duterte has taken office, 1900 people have died including at least 700 in police operations.

Do you accept those figures?

[14:05:00] CAYETANO: Yes, ma'am, which conveniently the critics have not been saying, which is the same amount of people dead during the Aquino and

Arroyo administration.

So the cases now being reported, much of them are police operations. Some of them are between the drug lords, but the problem is the way it is being


Now, I have here an article from one of our leading newspapers that reports every Monday and Wednesday how many are dead. And they called it the "kill


And they got a little bit upset with me bringing this up.

But why will you call it a "kill list" when international a kill list means an assassination list.

AMANPOUR: Well, that is because people believe that vigilantes are out, that they are taking the law into their own hand.

Your own president said that he had issued shoot to kill orders to the police when they encounter members of organized crime or suspects who

violently resist arrest. And let me play for you what the head of police himself has said to those involved in this fight.

Listen to what he's told the public.


RONALD DELA ROSA, PHILIPPINE NATIONAL POLICE, CHIEF DIRECTOR GENERAL (through translator): You can kill them because you are the victims. Go

to them, pour gasoline on their houses and burn it down. Show them your anger.


AMANPOUR: Senator, you know, go to them, pour gasoline on their houses and burn it down. Show them your anger.

I mean, surely, at the very least that is incitement to violence.

CAYETANO: The Chief PNP has apologized for that throw that gasoline comment.

Does the president speak differently? Does he speak in a politically incorrect way? Yes. But this is what the criminals in the Philippines


But is he disregarding the international norms of human rights? No.

That is why Secretary De Lima and Mr. Chairman Gascon has been making accusations left and right, and we have been pointing out that they are

making faulty generalizations.

We have pointed out that every case they have stated has been investigated, has either been -- it's in the courts or is being prosecuted.

AMANPOUR: Senator, I hear you. Obviously, you're referring to a special inquiry that's been opened by that Senator Lima, who we are going to speak

to regarding these killings. Because there are many, including as I said the United States and the U.N. who object to what is going on despite the

way you describe it.

What do you think your president will say to President Obama when they meet at the G20 next week?

As I said, the U.S. has asked for the Philippines to respect human rights and international law.

CAYETANO: Well, no one can really predict what our president will say, but look what he does.

Remember, ma'am, the president has admitted that there are policemen who are into drugs. He has admitted that there are rotten cops. So despite

how the president is portrayed and despite how he speaks, he's a man of contradiction. He's a very peaceful man.

And, ma'am, may I just communicate this to our friends in Europe and the U.S.

This is not going to be the norm because President Duterte is a reset button. It is an offensive against the drug lords. It is a clean up

process. And once everything stabilizes and we can put more money on CCTVs, on drug labs, on crime labs, on paying the police more, on

professionalizing all aspects of our governance, you will have the more European or U.S.-type of law enforcement that you want.

These self-vigilante killings wherein people are being paid, ma'am -- this is the drug lords cleaning up their own act so that they won't be brought

to court.

AMANPOUR: You know, in some instances, young children are being killed, when shots are being fired by police through their households as the police

hunt down potential targets, that picture that you showed went viral.

The guy is some petty drug user, and according to his wife, not a drug lord. But I want to ask you this, finally.

Are you sure this will work? Because as you know, in neighboring Thailand, they tried a very similar thing back in the early 2000s.

A huge crackdown, an offensive against so-called drug lords and drugs continue and the pushing continues and the trafficking continues.

And as you know, in Mexico, decades of going after drug lords and kingpins and tens of thousands have been killed, and it still carries on. So is

this the right method?

CAYETANO: Well, ma'am, in Singapore people love the law and fear the law. That's all our president is trying to do. It's working now. Will it work?

We hope so. We're praying so. We are just trying to instil in the people the love but also the fear of the law.


[14:10:00] CAYETANO: As to casualties, as I said, in a perfect world, no one should die. And as for children or for people accidentally getting

shot or getting in the crossfire, this happens all around the world. They're in London, in the U.S. It shouldn't have happened.

But if the president stops this, the killing of children, the selling of drugs to children -- you know, we invite people to not listen to the

critics, but come over and check it out.

And thank you very much for this opportunity. God bless you.

AMANPOUR: Senator Cayetano, thank you very much.

And we turn next to a fierce critic of the president and that policy -- Senator Leila De Lima.

Welcome to the program, senator.

You heard what your colleague, Senator Cayetano, told me. That there are no extrajudicial killings and that the numbers are something that the

Filipino people actually approve of.

LEILA DE LIMA, PHILIPPINE SENATOR: How can anyone say that there are no extrajudicial killings? We have no more than 2000 dead by this. Dead

persons in the name of the so-called war.

Many of these are summary killings or extrajudicial killings. We all heard about the official line that the 756 are persons killed in the course of

police operations, allegedly resisted. I do not for a second believe that.

AMANPOUR: The president and his supporters say that there are just as many people killed under the Arroyo and Aquino administrations.

Is that true?

DE LIMA: That is not true. If the Senator Cayetano refers to both the Arroyo and Aquino administration, then we're looking at a period of more

than 10 years. That's nine years of Arroyo, and six years of Aquino. And then we have two months of the Duterte administration, and there are a

little over 2000 already killed in the name of his war against drugs.

AMANPOUR: Let me play you something. This is what one witness, one woman testifying before your inquiry said.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I told my husband that you need to change so you can see your son grow up. I don't want our children to

find out what you do for a living.


AMANPOUR: So that is apparently the wife of a drug trafficker or a drug user or a drug peddler.

The point is, there is a major drug problem in the Philippines. You admit that, right? What is the best way to end this scourge?

DE LIMA: We just have to really intensify drive against illegal drugs with the least number of killings.

Yes, there's still a lot to fix in our criminal justice system. So let's fix it. Let's fix the law enforcement. Let's make it more efficient.

Let's train more law enforcers in the proper manner. Let's hire more prosecutors. Let's train more prosecutors. And let's reform the criminal

justice system.

There should be no shortcuts in trying to achieve law and order in our society.

AMANPOUR: Senator, how do you explain the popularity of President Duterte's crackdown on crime, especially drug crime? He has a massively

high approval rating.

DE LIMA: Of course everybody knows how brave the drug men is in our country. And the secretary of justice when we had briefings from the

concerned agencies, what I remember is that 94 percent of our villages, of our local communities, the barangays have been drug affected.

And they're saying that even here in the National Capital Region is 100 percent drug affected. So everybody knows the extent of the drug problem

in the country. And the president happens to really -- well, he's able to resonate with our voters.

No one is disputing the magnitude of the drug problem in our country. So he was able to really hit it right in the jugular. That's why it's so

appealing to most people.

AMANPOUR: You know, he's also hit you in the jugular. He is a man of very colorful language. He has told you that you should be resigning, and that

you should go hang yourself. And he's called you immoral and accused you of accepting kickbacks and all sorts of money from drug lords as well.

DE LIMA: I take deep offense about those accusations hurled by no less than the highest official of the land.

[14:15:13] And, you know, those accusations about me being a drug cuddler, or a cuddler of drug convicts, or protector of drug lords or even being

involved in drugs is so outrageous. It's an absolute lie.

I think he has actually undertaken a personal vendetta against me because he has not forgotten when I was the chairperson of the Commission in Human

Rights, and I led an investigation in the Davao death squad. So he has not forgotten that.

I've been warned that if I proceed with Senate inquiry, they're going to do this. They're going to destroy me. And even if this is not really good

for me, this is certainly bad for the president. Because I know what is the truth, and the truth is on my side.

AMANPOUR: Senator Leila De Lima, thank you very much, indeed, for joining us.

DE LIMA: Thank you, too. My pleasure.

AMANPOUR: Tough days in the Philippines.

And when we come back, do you know what the burkini and the bikini have in common?

The politics of swim wear through the ages, next.


AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

The bikini was born 70 years ago and it was created, of course, by a French fashion designer. And it was named for the tiny atoll on which the first

nuclear test took place.

Women's beachwear is a matter of explosive controversy this summer after several French mayors banned Burkinis on their beaches.

This image went viral showing a woman in Nice being fined for deciding to cover up. But it wasn't so long ago when women were fined for not covering


Look at this photo from 1957 of a police officer in Rimini, Italy writing a ticket for a woman showing too much skin. She was wearing a bikini.

Amidst all of this, the French gallery, Galerie Joseph, is celebrating the long life of the bikini with a popular exhibit on its evolution over time.

And Michael Timsit is the CEO of that gallery and he joins me now from Paris.

So welcome to the program.

What did you think when you first put this exhibition on? And have you been surprised by the attention and the visitors it has attracted?

MICHAEL TIMSIT, CEO, GALERIE JOSEPH: Yes, indeed. The exhibition started in the beginning of July. We didn't have this burkini press. And

beginning of August, we had this burkini outbreak. And we saw a lot more frequentation of the gallery and the exhibit. Also, different clientele,

different type of visitors. It was quite interesting.

AMANPOUR: So tell me about it. I mean, I love the way you say burkini outbreak. I mean, it does seem to be sort of an outbreak of hysteria over

this, all encompassing, you know, body wear. But go back to how the bikini was taken by people, by society, and by law enforcement. When it was first

created, I think in 1946 or something.

TIMSIT: Yes. But before the bikini, there was the bathing suit in 1830. English were coming to the west coast of France to bathe, and so they had a

blouse and a pair of pants and a hat. Much likely like the burkini today. And it evolved in 1946, where the bikini was invented by a Frenchman Louis

Ruard just after the Second World War, where people were demanding freedom of expression and liberty. So all this evolution -- yes?

AMANPOUR: Liberty and all the rest of it. But it did create quite a storm and it took a long time doesn't it, before the bikini actually became, you

know, used much more frequently by ordinary women.

TIMSIT: It depends on each country. For example, in the Spain, of Franco, in the 1970s, bikini was forbidden. Franco actually authorized it because

he saw the profit he could make having tourist back to his beaches. It was against the church. There were also some matters in Greece and also in


So each country had different evolution regarding the bikini -- how they saw it, how they authorize it. And until today, we see it today. But not

every country authorized the bikini, I think.



AMANPOUR: Yes. So the bikini was also, in other words, swept up in the politics and the religion of its time just as the burkini is today.

TIMSIT: Bikini was more a question of the church and the liberty of the woman, looking for the liberty of her body and evolving in a new society.

Burkini, what I understand from (INAUDIBLE) trends today, it's something more about religion and the fear of what's going to happen later on the

beaches. That's what I understand of the problem today with the bikini and the burkini.

But the burkini was invented four years ago and we never had any -- I never heard any problems like we had this year. And this year I think is a

special year in France. We have a lot, a lot of problems.

AMANPOUR: And, obviously, the politics and the violence which has created such a backlash from the Burkini. But I'm interested the way you say it

was invented four years ago.

Did it appear on French beaches with very little commentary, the burkini?

TIMSIT: Yes, I suppose so. It's not the first year. It's a -- a lot of women have -- I don't think it was a big thing. But what politics say, and

a part of the French population is that the burkini is used to send a message. And this message this year in 2016 is not very welcome from a

part of the population.

So the conflict is not about the burkini wearing. It's who is sending the message. And it's different from the bikini who was an individual choice.

If they want to wear a bikini. As of today, the French authority hear, that's a global message send on the beaches.

AMANPOUR: Do you think there will be a day when it gets back to where it was four years ago? Do you think once the height of this tense period

passes, that the burkini -- because let's face it. France has a lot of Muslims and a lot of Muslim women who want to go to the beach and dress

however they want.

Do foresee a day when they will be able to without this kind of backlash?

TIMSIT: I don't know. I think that when France forbids the burqa, I don't know if it worked out the way it was expected to. It was interesting to

understand that a lot of factions are against the burkini in the Muslim world. For them, it's almost too much. They're not supposed to have a


So even in the Muslim world, we have different opinions about it. I cannot tell you how is it going to evolve, but I think French are very sensitive

to this matter this year.

AMANPOUR: All right. Michael Timsit, thank you very much. Your exhibition closes today, I believe.

TIMSIT: Pleasure.

AMANPOUR: Thanks very much, indeed.

TIMSIT: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: So the burkini ban is indeed polarizing the U.N. Human rights office weighed in today saying it doesn't have and it doesn't actually

improve security, but instead fuels religious intolerance.

Coming up, migrant crossings to Greece have dramatically slowed, but they are still coming fast and furious to Italy, where the face of life's

fragility on the Mediterranean is revealed as a premature newborn is plucked from the sea.


[14:26:40] AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where life begins in deep peril on the high seas. A five-day old premature newborn

peers out from a blanket.

His short life is already being a treacherous journey. The baby, his twin brother, and mother are among six and a half thousand migrants who are

rescued while trying to cross from Libya to Italy over just a 30-hour period.

One of the little boys was very sick according to Medecins Sans Frontieres doctors. The three of them have been evacuated to Italy for treatment.

In another startling picture, a father stares at his crying baby son. He's now a single dad after his wife died in Libya before attempting the

dangerous journey.

The Italian Coast Guard says that it's coordinated 40 rescue operations in the one of the busiest days for years. It's a mission that I experienced

when I witnessed a dramatic rescue in the same place last year. Men, women, children willing to risk death at sea.

For these little ones, life has barely begun, but we hope their future will be brighter and safer than in the world they left behind.

That's it for our program tonight. And remember, you can always listen to our podcast, see us online at, and follow me on Facebook and


Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.