Return to Transcripts main page

THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER

Interview With Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker; Hurricane Matthew Targets East Coast; NSA Contractor Accused of Stealing Secrets; Clinton, Trump Prepare for Second Debate. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired October 5, 2016 - 16:15   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: A sign that Trump might be taking the big rematch, debate number two, a bit more seriously.

THE LEAD starts right now.

Donald Trump now scheduling something of a practice scrimmage for Sunday's town hall battle right here on CNN after his running mate played goalie for him all night long in that battle of the number twos.

Plus, a brand-new feature here on THE LEAD, digging deep into candidates' pasts and turning up tapes, this time from "Playboy." Who could it be?

[16:00:05]

And deadly turn. Hurricane Matthew, a potentially catastrophic storm now on a collision course with the U.S. and Americans are stocking up and getting out.

Welcome to THE LEAD, everyone. I'm Jake Tapper.

A big, big breaking news day. A powerful hurricane is right now barrelling towards millions here in the United States, as fallout continues from the vice presidential nominees going to war on the debate stage last night.

But we're going to begin with major news just in from the FBI, a secret arrest finally revealed today, a contractor charged with stealing top-secret information from the National Security Agency. What is he accused of stealing and could this information have gotten into the wrong hands?

CNN justice correspondent Evan Perez has the late-breaking details.

Evan, what do we know about this contractor and what exactly is he accused of stealing?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, the FBI believes that he stole documents detailing a sophisticated hacking tool that the NSA developed to break into foreign computer systems.

Someone calling themselves the Shadow Brokers posted documents detailing the computer code for sale on the Internet a couple months ago. The FBI raided Martin's home back in August. According to a criminal complaint that was filed in federal court, they found a number of documents, as well as information on thumb drives.

And that includes some that are classified at the highest levels. Now, Martin worked as a contractor for Booz Allen Hamilton. He had a top-security clearance. The FBI arrested him back in August, but, as you mentioned, they kept that arrest secret while they tried to figure out the damage that was done.

Now, this another major blow for the NSA after the leaks by Edward Snowden, who also worked for Booz Allen Hamilton, by the way. They have been doing a lot of work, Jake, to try to mitigate the threat that they say that they have from these so-called insiders.

TAPPER: Do the law enforcement officials believe that he was acting on his own? Do they think he was working with a foreign government?

PEREZ: Well, the investigation is still ongoing. So, they don't really know exactly what motivated him.

At this point, they don't really believe that he was working for the Russians or any foreign spy service. We did get a statement from his attorney. And it reads in part: "There is no part that Hal Martin betrayed his country. What we do know is that Mr. Martin loves his family and America. He served his nation honorably in the U.S. Navy as a lieutenant and has devoted his entire career to making America safe" -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Evan Perez, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Turning to our politics lead now, Senator Tim Kaine interrupted Governor Mike Pence's sentences dozens of times during last night's V.P. debate trying to pin Pence to Donald Trump's many past statements. It's an approach that helped Kaine lose the debate, at least according to our CNN snap poll.

Kaine prosecuted Trump, asking Pence to defend outrageous comments that the presidential nominee has made. Pence more often than not did not offer a defense of Trump, insisting instead that the comments that Trump made had not been made.

CNN chief political correspondent Dana Bash is here with me in Washington.

And, Dana, observers widely agreed Pence won last night, but there are reports that Trump may not be happy because Pence did not defend him strongly enough.

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

Of course, Donald Trump wanted his running mate to do well, but perhaps not at the expense of defending him at all costs. Trying to translate Trump's impolitic language into more palatable rhetoric has been Pence's main role since he was picked.

But the Indiana governor took that to another level at times last night, seeming to reshape some of Trump's policies.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH (voice-over): Mike Pence could teach a master class in the art of deflection.

ELAINE QUIJANO, MODERATOR: Why the disconnect with your running mates?

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R-IN), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But there's a -- there's a reason why people question the trustworthiness of Hillary Clinton.

BASH: For 90 minutes, Donald Trump's number two actively avoided a mine field of Trump's missteps.

PENCE: Donald Trump and I would never support legislation that punished women who made the heartbreaking choice to end a pregnancy.

SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Then why did Donald Trump say that?

PENCE: We just never would.

KAINE: Why did he say that?

PENCE: Well, look, it's -- look, he's not a polished politician like you and Hillary Clinton.

BASH: But Pence also repeatedly neglected a key part of a running mate's job, defending the candidate who put you on the ticket. Highlighting that gulf was Tim Kaine's strategy from the start.

KAINE: Six times tonight, I have said to Governor Pence I can't imagine how you can defend your running mate's position on one issue after the next.

BASH: At times, the calm, polished Pence took his "I'm different from Trump performance" so far, he contradicted the candidate on critical issues, like on Russia.

PENCE: America's political system is superior to the crony, corrupt capitalist system in Russia in every way.

BASH: Much to the chagrin of many conservatives, Trump crows about getting compliments from Russia's Vladimir Putin.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He called me a genius. He said we're going to win. That's good.

BASH: Pence's hard-line approach was quite different.

[16:05:00]

PENCE: The small and bullying leader of Russia is now dictating terms to the United States. BASH: Kaine tried to corner Pence for agreeing with Trump that Putin

is a stronger leader than President Obama.

KAINE: Governor Pence said, inarguably, Vladimir Putin is a better leader than President Obama.

PENCE: That is absolutely inaccurate.

KAINE: And -- and -- and I just think a guy who praises...

PENCE: I said he's a stronger -- he's been stronger on the world stage.

KAINE: No, you said leader. And if -- and I will just say this, Governor.

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: You just said better.

KAINE: If you mistake leadership for dictatorship, and you can't tell the difference...

BASH: Here is what Pence told us last month:

PENCE: I think it's inarguable that Vladimir Putin has been a stronger leader in his country than Barack Obama has been in this country.

BASH: On Syria, Pence warned of airstrikes, which Trump has not.

PENCE: If Russia chooses to be involved and continue, I should say, to be involved in this barbaric attack on civilians in Aleppo, the United States of America should be prepared to use military force to strike military targets of the Assad regime.

BASH: When Kaine pushed Pence on Trump's call during the primaries for a deportation force for undocumented immigrants, Pence sidestepped.

KAINE: So you like the 16 million deportations?

PENCE: Senator, that's -- that's nonsense. Look, what you just heard is they have a plan for open borders, amnesty.

BASH: Privately, some Republicans said Trump was not thrilled that Pence didn't back him up on some controversial issues. But others, even Trump's son, were full of praise.

(on camera): Were you disappointed? Would you have liked Mike Pence to defend him more?

ERIC TRUMP, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, TRUMP ORGANIZATION: This is playbook 101 for the Clinton campaign. It's been their entire life, right? Distract. Distract. Distract.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Now, Mike Pence spent weeks doing mock debates, intensely rehearsing ways to avoid playing into team Trump calls Clinton distractions.

And he did all the things, Jake, that Donald Trump was criticized for not doing last week. He of course was accused of taking the bait and just veering right off-message. So, people inside Trump land are saying, you can't have both. You can't have your cake and eat it, too, to the critics of both of them.

TAPPER: All right, Dana Bash, thank you.

Joining me now, Governor Scott Walker of Wisconsin. He has endorsed Donald Trump in the presidential race and he helped his friend and fellow Governor Mike Pence with debate prep.

Governor, thanks so much for being here.

GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R), WISCONSIN: Good to be with you, Jake.

TAPPER: So, you were part of the team helping Governor Pence prepare for the debate.

Would you say the strategy was to not get bogged down in the charges that Kaine waged?

WALKER: Yes. Don't take the bait was the phrase we kept talking about.

We knew that -- watching the tapes, that Senator Kaine was going to spend his time really trying to detract from the real question. In fact, at some points, I kind of scratched my head and said, does any remember what the question Senator Kaine was actually asked?

But that's what we did. I played Senator Kaine in the debate. I tried to go at Mike Pence and Donald Trump over and over again. And that's almost exactly what you saw. Almost word for word in our prep, is what we heard from Tim Kaine last night. And I think that's a reflection of they think in their focus groups that if they attack, they attack, they attack, they can win.

I think Mike Pence showed America that he is ready not just to be the vice president -- or to be the president if something awful were to happen to the president, but to be a vice president who will help Donald Trump actually get things done.

TAPPER: Well, it's definitely true and indisputable that Governor Pence stayed with broader themes while Tim Kaine tried to get Governor Pence to defend things that Trump said.

But throughout the debate, Pence insisted, responding to Kaine, that Donald Trump never said things that Donald Trump did say.

Take, for example, on nuclear weapons. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAINE: More nations should get nuclear weapons. Try to defend that.

PENCE: Don't put words in my mouth. Well, he never said that, Senator.

KAINE: He absolutely said it. Saudi Arabia, South Korea, Japan.

TRUMP: North Korea has nukes. Japan has a problem with that. I mean, they have a big problem with that. Maybe they would in fact be better off if they defend themselves from North Korea.

QUESTION: With nukes?

TRUMP: Maybe we would be better off, including with nukes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, this happened again and again on whether or not Mr. Trump called for a deportation force, whether Trump believes in punishment for women who have abortions, on praise of Putin.

I understand you consider that taking the bait, but by denying that Trump said things that he said, didn't he kind of create an alternate reality version of Donald Trump?

WALKER: No.

I think Mike's point in all this was that the context was different than what Senator Kaine was saying, that, certainly, for example, with Putin -- we have talked about this many times before. He doesn't admire Putin for being a leader. He was just pointing out how weak he thought President Obama's leadership was and that was a failure.

And that is a point Mike Pence made over and over again, that we're weaker in this world not just because of this president, but because of Hillary Clinton's policies, and that when Donald Trump and he are president and vice president, they will reestablishment that strength that America has traditionally had, Republican and Democrat alike.

[16:10:00]

So, I think his point was not that he didn't say those things, but that Senator Kaine repeatedly was selectively taking things out of context, or even some of the comments he made about people coming from Mexico.

He -- Senator Kaine tried to suggest that was a broad brush. I think Mike Pence's reaction was that, no, he talked about people who came here who committed illegal acts, many of whom Donald Trump and Mike Pence have actually met with the families of people who have been victimized by the select few who have caused those sorts of problems.

But that wasn't painting everyone in a broad brush who has come from that country to the south.

TAPPER: Now, Kaine repeatedly Governor Pence on Donald Trump's immigration policies and rhetoric, as you note.

Listen to how Pence rebutted Kaine. This came late in the debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENCE: You have whipped out the Mexican thing again. He -- look...

KAINE: Can you defend it?

PENCE: There are criminal aliens in this country, Tim, who have come into this country illegally who are perpetrating violence and taking American lives.

KAINE: You want to -- you want to use a big, broad brush against Mexicans on that?

PENCE: He also said, and many of them are good people. You keep leaving that out of your quote.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, I don't know how much you know about this, but "whipped out that Mexican thing," which is what Governor Pence said, this is now a big deal in Latino media.

And it's being used to suggest that Mike Pence's answer was a little bit more glib than it should have been, that it was dismissing how Latinos, many of them were deeply offended by Trump's remarks in his kickoff speech.

What's your response to that?

WALKER: Well, I think, having watched it, what I thought was, here was somebody who brought it up multiple times.

Tim Kaine clearly had the attack dog role, the former DNC chair. His objective was to come in and say things as many times as he could over and over again. In fact, at one point, he even said, I said it six times. So, clearly, his response was, he -- no matter the question, he was going to say certain things.

In this case, I think Mike Pence just reacted and said, I don't care how many times you have brought it up, whatever the issue had been, whether it had been about individuals coming from Mexico, whether it had been about Russia, whether it had been any of the other talking points that Tim Kaine had.

His reaction was, OK, you have said it so many times. Let me talk about it.

I thought his point was pretty clear. I thought most Americans said, hey, there is a distinction between people who have come here who have committed violent crimes and vicious acts against American citizens vs. many others who he didn't paint with the same brush. And I thought Mike Pence actually made it very clear. TAPPER: Do you think Donald Trump should do debate prep with you and

with Governor Pence, so that his performance is more on message and more reassuring than his reviews were for the first debate?

WALKER: I don't know about doing it with me. But I can tell you, unquestionably, I have done it before as a governor, gubernatorial candidate. I have done it obviously now this last month with Mike Pence.

People mistakenly think that debate prep is putting words in your mouth. It's actually just the opposite. What debate prep helps you do is stay focused on who you are and what you believe in, and not get drawn off by things that are meant to sidetrack you.

And that's part of the reason why I think it was successful, that Mike Pence showed the kind of person he had -- he showed his empathy, he showed his rational sense, he showed what it means to be a commonsense conservative.

And, yes, I think that any sort of preparation like that that Donald Trump could for the next couple debates would allow him as well to stay on message and not be distracted from some of the other issues that really don't relate to what Americans care about.

TAPPER: Governor Scott Walker of Wisconsin, thank you so much for your time, sir.

WALKER: Good to be with you.

TAPPER: Changing things up. He doesn't hold any full 90-minute mock debates ahead of his first matchup, but now Donald Trump is testing a different prep strategy for this Sunday's town hall debate. What is he doing? Who is helping him? That story next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(INSERT 1615)



(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:17:36] JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to THE LEAD.

Let's continue with our politics lead. Moments ago, we heard Donald Trump's first reaction to last night's vice presidential debate and his running mate, Governor Mike Pence. Let's go right to CNN's Jason Carroll live in Hendersonville, Nevada,

where Trump just held a rally.

Jason, what did Mr. Trump have to say?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He just wrapped up the rally a few moments ago. Even before he took the stage here, Jake, he was out talking her in Nevada, basically saying that Pence was the one who won on the issues. And then when he spoke to the crowd about Pence, he almost seemed to take credit for Pence's performance.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Mike Pence did an incredible job. And I am getting a lot of credit because that's really my first so-called choice. That was my first hire, as we would say in Las Vegas. And I'll tell you, he's a good one. He was phenomenal. I would argue that Mike had the single most decisive victory in the history of presidential debates.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL: Now, Jake, as I'm sure you've heard, there were some reports out there that perhaps Donald Trump was unhappy with some of the things that happened post-debate, meaning some of the commentators who were out there basically saying that Pence is a better debater and he didn't do a very good job at defending Trump. But no sign of that here. We should also say that the campaign flatly denied that. At this rally, it was all praise for Pence -- Jason.

TAPPER: And, Jason, next, of course, is the town hall debate. Mr. Trump making an effort to get familiar with that setting. How is he preparing?

CARROLL: Right. And as many people out there already know, the next debate format will be a town hall format. Donald Trump is going to be holding his own town hall that's going to be tomorrow in New Hampshire.

The campaign really feels as though his is Donald Trump's sweet spot, that he does well in these types of formats. That he is good one on one with people. They feel as though Hillary Clinton is not.

This is his way of preparing for the debate. He is an unconventional candidate. He is going to have unconventional methods for preparation, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Jason Carroll, thank you so much.

Before the first presidential debate, Hillary Clinton spent days off the campaign trail preparing. This time it appears her strategy is if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

CNN senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny joins me now.

And, Jeff, last time when Clinton prepared so much, Trump mocked her time off the trail, suggesting she did not have the stamina to be president.

[16:20:04] Apparently, the Clinton campaign thought, who cares? The preparation is necessary.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly what she thought. She thought practice makes perfect or at the very least it wins debates. So, she is spending most of the next four days behind closed doors with the same small circle of advisors preparing here for that big Sunday sequel with Trump.

But as she steps off the campaign trail, several other Democrats are stepping out, including her husband, who is campaigning today in eastern Ohio. He is still trying to smooth over criticism from suggesting Obamacare was the craziest thing in the world and needs to be fixed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT: I strongly supported that bill. And it's given more than 20 million people more insurance. But there are problems with it. There are problems with it. And everybody knows it.

The Republicans want to repeal the law. Their idea of solving the problem is to take 20 million people who got insurance and take it away from them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: Now, the chairman of the Clinton campaign John Podesta told me last night that he would have chosen different words. But, Jake, the reality is health care has been relegated to the back burner of this campaign but it's going to be awaiting whoever becomes president and is likely to become a topic of the debate on Sunday or perhaps the final third one.

TAPPER: All right. Jeff Zeleny, thanks so much.

Coming up, a new feature on THE LEAD diving into the archives, finding a politician appearing in adult video. What's in these videos? Who is the politician?

Plus, he is on the ballot but says he is not focused on winning, he is focused on defeating Donald Trump.

That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:25:54] TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD.

Let's continue with politics and a new feature digging through archives. CNN just hired former "BuzzFeed" reporter Andrew Kaczynski and his four-member KFILE team. They have made a name for themselves by finding great old video and audio and comments from politicians. They uncovered the radio clip of Donald Trump on Howard Stern in 2002

expressing support for the Iraq war, and video of Hillary Clinton referring to young people and gangs in the '90s as super predators and so on.

Today, they bring us some newly surfaced videos featuring Donald Trump with the gang from Playboy. Does it matter? Well, that's up to you.

The Clinton campaign noted that a few days after Trump attacked his ex nemesis, former Miss Universe Alicia Machado, for an alleged sex tape, that's a reference I guess to a racy scene from her appearance on a reality show, Kaczynski and his team found an X-rated video featuring a G-rated cameo by Trump.

So, let's welcome Andrew Kaczynski to the show.

Andrew, great to have you aboard.

Let's start with the new stuff you're revealing right now, Playboy's celebration video from the '90s. It's called Playboy Centerfold.

Tell us what we're looking at here?

ANDREW KACZYNSKI, CNN KFILE, SENIOR EDITOR, REPORTER: So, what we're looking at right now is Donald Trump in the 1994 Playboy video. It's basically the sort of the video equivalent of the Playboy calendar. Now, Trump's role in it in between these erotic scenes. There was actually a farm scene and a couple of others that were very erotic.

But Trump's role was interviewing these playmates who wanted to be -- potential Playboy playmates for the magazine. He asked them some questions. He took Polaroids with them. And to be clear, he was fully clothed but he was in this erotic video.

TAPPER: And you also found that Trump and his then girlfriend, now wife Melania attended a Playboy event in 2001 that ended up later appearing in a Playboy video. You found a clip from that event when CNN's own Jeanne Moos caught up with Trump and Melania. Let's watch that exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Have you ever dated a playmate?

DONALD TRUMP, BUSINESSMAN: I refuse to answer that question.

MOOS: On the grounds that it may be true?

TRUMP: May be true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, he had a relationship with Playboy.

KACZYNSKI: So, Trump's relationship with Playboy went back to the early '90s. Trump was on the cover of the magazine in 1990. There was this very famous interview where he said -- he wouldn't say it's his marriage was monogamous. So, Trump also did lots of interviews with Playboy over the years. There was one in around 1997, one in 2004, and he did Playboy events.

So, he has a very long history with Playboy.

TAPPER: Interesting. And over the weekend, you released a different video you found with Trump and champagne. It was an erotic playboy video, although Trump's role in it was G-rated. This came after he had attacked Alicia Machado for his behavior.

Why might voters find this noteworthy? Might -- you know, some might be watching this and think who cares?

KACZYNSKI: I think voters watching this are going to maybe take from it that Trump basically said of Machado, she is disgusting. You should check out her sex tape, when all she had done is this sort of grainy, Big Brother style reality TV sex. Whereas Trump has actually been, you know, on the cover of Playboy. He was -- did events with Playboy. He was in these videos. Very benignly but he was in these erotic Playboy videos.

So, I think people might think it's a little bit hypocritical on Trump's part.

TAPPER: All right. Andrew Kaczynski, thanks so much. Bring us more stuff, Trump, Clinton, we don't care. Bring it to us.

At last night's debate, there was no mention of the third party candidates who could tip the scales for Hillary Clinton or for Donald Trump come November. But a surprising twist now, Libertarian vice presidential candidate Bill Weld saying he'll focus his energy in many ways on stopping Donald Trump from becoming our next commander in chief.

In an interview with "The Boston Globe", the former Republican governor of Massachusetts said Trump's agenda is in a, quote, "class by itself".

Joining me now, Governor Bill Weld, thanks so much for being here. I appreciate it.

I want to hear your response to the debate. But, first, can you explain what you meant by saying you're going to focus your attention on making sure Donald Trump doesn't get elected?

BILL WELD, LIBERTARIAN VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, Jake, it's good to be with you.

Gary Johnson and I have been, since the get-go, in this to win. I think the way to win, to run the table, is to peel off Republican votes from Donald Trump. I know people say we pick off millennial votes from the Democrats.