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Antonio Guterres Appointed Next U.N. Chief; Tom Ford Talks Fashion and Film; The Woman Who Could be the World's Older Refugee

Aired October 13, 2016 - 14:00:00   ET


[14:00:10] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Tonight, a final seal of approval for Antonio Guterres. The General Assembly formally appoints him

the next secretary-general of the United Nations. And Mr. Guterres joins this program, live.

Also ahead, high fashion designer and award-winning film director Tom Ford on his dark new film "Nocturnal Animals." The otherworldly U.S. election

and how he juggles all his roles.


TOM FORD, FILM DIRECTOR: I am so highly scheduled, which actually comes naturally to me. Occasionally, I'll get an email from a friend who will

say, when can we hang out. Just the concept -- hang out?


AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

It's being described as the most impossible job in the world. And today it was awarded to Antonio Guterres. He will be the new U.N. Secretary General

when Ban Ki-Moon steps down at the end of this year.

There are many serious challenges on the U.N. docket. Perhaps none more pressing than the five and a half-year Syria war, which reached ever more

shocking heights of depravity this week. And today Guterres pledged to put human dignity at the core of his work.

He's almost perfectly qualified to take the helm right now, after ten years as U.N. high commissioner for refugees. And he's the first SG to have held

executive power in his own country as prime minister of Portugal for seven years.

All these skills and experience are needed now perhaps more than ever. In a world that seems paralyzed, unable to end severe crises.

So joining me now live from the U.N. is Antonio Guterres.


AMANPOUR: First of all, welcome and congratulations.

ANTONIO GUTERRES, UNITED NATIONS SECRETARY GENERAL DESIGNATE: It's a pleasure and thank you very much for your kindness.

AMANPOUR: Is it a little, though, a poison chalice? I mean, you know better than anyone having dealt for the last ten years with the world's

greatest ever refugee crisis and watching what's happening in Syria on a daily basis -- I mean, where do you even start?

GUTERRES: Well, first of all, I'm not yet the secretary-general. I'll be only from the 1st of January, I will be preparing intensively to do the

right thing, when I finally will start my functions. But I would say that if we need something today is a surge in diplomacy for peace.

We are seeing a multiplication of new conflicts. Old conflicts never die. Our relations became unclear. Impunity and unpredictability everywhere.

And I think it's necessary to try to make all people understand, all states understand, that these are wars in which nobody is winning. Everybody is

losing. And so it's much better for everybody to come together, to put aside different interests, different perspectives and to really, make

peace. To really create the conditions for peace to prevail. To make sure that spoilers will no longer be able to avoid peace to be re-established.



GUTERRES: The human suffering we are witnessing. A little look at Syria. I have to say, for me, it's a personal -- personal obligation. The Syrian

people has always been very generous.

I remember when we had the Iraqi crisis. Syrians received more than two million Iraqi refugees, sharing everything with them. Palestinians, who

enjoy in Syria the best level of rights of all the region. To see these generous people suffering so much. It's -- there is a moral obligation for

us all to join efforts to stop this war.

AMANPOUR: OK. That is absolutely true. And everybody is watching this with increasing horror and wondering how this increasing assault on Aleppo,

on civilians, I mean, it's been likened to the worst since Guernica in the Spanish civil war.

How do you think that you can convene this coalition for peace? I want to play for you a little bit of an interview that you and I did along with the

U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights. More than a year ago. Where you talked about how difficult it was to convene for peace.

Listen to this a second.


GUTERRES: I think in Syria the serious problem of lack of leadership and convening power. There is a number of countries that has a direct

influence in what's happening in Syria today. The two parties will not be able to fight without the strong support they received in money and arms

from the outside.


AMANPOUR: So you basically said it's very difficult because there's no convener. This weekend, more talks will start about a cease-fire. But how

does the U.N. break the logjam that you talked about there and that you're talking about tonight?

GUTERRES: I think the U.N. and the U.N. secretary-general has the obligation to be respecting the role of member states. But to be a

convener, a bridge builder, to be an honest broker. And especially in this situation, to do everything possible to make key stakeholders and the

different countries involved understand that this is now a war that became a threat to everybody.

[14:05:47] This war is linked to global terrorism. When we see the tragedies in Paris or in other capitals in Europe. But also tragedies in

the Middle East. Even the way lone wolves have acted from Canada to Australia. These became a threat to all global security, to all citizens

everywhere. So it's high time to put aside our different interests and legitimate concerns that each country might have in this situation. And to

come together and to make sure that the, those at top parties to the conflict understand that this conflict has to stop.

This will not be easy. It will probably take time. But we need to search in the diplomacy for peace. We need to search in making sure that

everybody understands how much everybody is losing and how little anyone is gaining.

AMANPOUR: But it must kind of, I guess, depress is not the right word. But, I mean, you were a former prime minister. You had executive

authority, you were an elected leader and you were able to get things done within your parameters and your constitutional process.

The U.N.'S constitutional process has, you know, it's got built-in paralysis. You've got these vetoes. These five permanent members who have

very different interests. Let's just talk about Syria and they don't allow either the political process or the humanitarian process to go through.

Is there any way of superseding that paralysis? That veto power?

GUTERRES: Well, the only way for a secretary-general that has not power in himself is persuasion. Is to be permanently active in bringing people

together. And making sure that they understand how much they are all losing and how much they are risking for the security of their own peoples.

That's the only thing we can do.

The secretary-general is not the world leader. The secretary-general doesn't command armies in these conflict situations. That is, of course,

the peace-keeping I mentioned that it's a completely different story.

It is that capacity to be a convener, to be a catalyst, to be a bridge builder that in my opinion needs to be very strongly intensified in the

near future.

AMANPOUR: Right to protect was one of the outgoing Secretary-General Kofi Annan's main pieces of legacy. And yet that is never really been enacted.

What's happening now is that a lot of world leaders are accusing the Syrian regime and their Russian enablers and helpers of committing war crimes in

Aleppo with the relentless bombardment of civilians and hospitals, et cetera.

This is what Sergey Lavrov, the foreign minister told me, about those accusations when I spoke with him yesterday.


SERGEY LAVROV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, war crimes is something which we can discuss in the appropriate structures. There are

internationally recognised procedures for this, and it's better to use them rather than the media to make yourself more visible, which is the goal of

quite a number of my colleagues, unfortunately.

On the investigation of the humanitarian convoy attack, the United Nations Secretary General launched the investigation and I strongly insist those

who have any information related to what happened should respect the investigation and submit the information to the Secretary General of the

United Nations.


AMANPOUR: Well, that was a long way of saying that war crimes have to be investigated in the correct forum.

So there was a special tribunal set up for Yugoslavia for Rwanda.

Do you see and would you lobby for a special tribunal to be set up to adjudicate accusations of war crimes in Syria?

GUTERRES: I think it's important to recognize that in between, we have an international criminal court. And at the time, those special tribunals

were created in the absence of international criminal court. What I believe it will be important is to create the conditions for that

international criminal court, to have the chance and to have demanded from the international community, to be more active in the most dramatic

situations we are facing.

AMANPOUR: I'm not sure whether Syria is a member of that, but I would check on that.

Can I ask you, you have a lot of challenges ahead. What do you perceive as the most important challenge and a place where the secretary-general, the

next secretary-general can have, you know, maximum impact?

[14:10:10] GUTERRES: I think the biggest challenge is this dramatic absence of peace in today's world. This horrible multiplication of new

conflicts and the link between conflicts and global terrorism, and the need for the secretary-general to make it a first priority, this action, knowing

the limitations of his powers but knowing also that sometimes the power of persuasion, the power of bringing people together, the power of making

people understand what their real interests are can overcome in almost difficulties.

AMANPOUR: And do you ever reflect on the fact that there was a time let's say in the '90s where the world did convene eventually to stop, you know,

tragedies in Bosnia, in Sierra Leone, in Kosovo, places like that and somehow that has all gone by the wayside.

GUTERRES: Well, I think it's important to understand that the world has had a bipolar situation in which the rules of the game were clear. That

the world had a unipolar situation, which again the rules of the game were clear. But now we live in a world that is not yet multi-polar. No longer

bipolar or unipolar. It's to a certain extent a chaotic world.

And it is in this chaotic world that is becoming very, very difficult to bring together the efforts necessary for peace to prevail in the most

difficult situations we face. I am a true believer in multilateralism. I'm a true believer that in a multipolar world, multilateralism can be

successful but we need to make an enormous effort in global governance to make things move in that direction. We are seen very far from it.

AMANPOUR: I just need to ask you one more question. Are you going to try to have gender parity? In other words equal numbers of women in your sort

of cabinet, in your official immediate circle?


AMANPOUR: Good. Excellent. Well, on that note, Antonio Guterres, the new U.N. secretary-general designate. Thanks so much for giving us your first



AMANPOUR: And when we come back, another man on top of his world right now. Whether fashion or film, it seems that designer, director Tom Ford

can do no wrong.

His latest thriller, "Nocturnal Animals" and his take on this American election, that's next.


AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

My next guest is a Titanic figure in fashion who is now a big name in film as well. Tom Ford shot to fame as the creative director of Gucci and Yves

Saint Laurent before he launched his own fashion house.

His directorial debut "A Single Man" was released in 2009 to universal acclaim. And now for his encore, the tense, dark thriller, "Nocturnal

Animals," starring Amy Adams and Jake Gyllenhaal. It is already receiving rave reviews.

We talked about his amazing art and his career as Tom Ford does the press tour ahead of the film's London premiere, which is tomorrow night.


AMANPOUR: Tom Ford, welcome to the program.

FORD: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: Another film, another massively fantastic review. But it is quite brutal. You yourself describe it as that. Why? Why have you done


[14:15:00] FORD: Well, the story is really about finding people in your life that are important and not letting them go. It's about loyalty. And

this is a cautionary tale about what can happen to you when you do let those people go.

The story just give you a quick sort of set-up. A woman who has everything, materially, but isn't very happy. And unexpectedly she

receives a manuscript from her first husband, which is a novel. And it's a very brutal, brutal story. And what he's saying to her is, this is what

you did to me when you left me. And so it has to be visceral. It has to be. But, again, it's a piece of fiction set inside an outer story.

AMANPOUR: But he comes barrelling into her life with this manuscript. Meantime, she's married. But not a happy marriage, correct?

FORD: Not at all a happy marriage.

AMANPOUR: So is it a little bit of a morality tale?

FORD: It's definitely a morality tale.

AMANPOUR: So she shouldn't have left him.

FORD: It's a moral allegory, absolutely, completely. Absolutely, she should not have left him. But, you know, she leaves him because she's,

she's insecure. She falls back on culturally.

In the film, we see that she comes from a background where she's expected to be beautiful. She's expected to be perfect. She's expected to be the

perfect wife. She gross up in Texas in a way, which, you know, women are supposed to be certain things. So she's a victim of our culture. She's a

victim of her upbringing. And so she makes choices which it would be easy to hate her for. But we also have to realize that she's a victim.

Which is I wanted to cast Amy Adams in this film, because there is a soulfulness in Amy's eyes. You cannot not feel for Amy Adams. And this

character could be one that you could dislike very easily except that you need to sense that she's been damaged by her childhood, damaged by her

life. And I think Amy brings that beautifully to the role.

AMANPOUR: And what about the difference in terms of working with actors and getting that performance out of them. And working with cloth, fabric,

material and getting the incredible performance, forms that you do out of that and the models.

Is there any crossover or are they two completely different worlds?

FORD: Two completely different worlds. However, the skill set that one needs to be a designer in today's world, where you're really a creative

director and the skill set that you need to be a director are surprisingly quite similar. Because you have to have a vision, number one. You have to

have a vision of what you want to say as a fashion designer and as a vision of what you want to say as a film maker.

Then you have to hire creative people, wonderful people and you have to support them to get the very best out of them. And at the same time, you

have to steer them and guide them towards whatever your end goal is and what you want to say. So the process is quite similar.

AMANPOUR: How on earth do you develop, shoot, film an entire movie, and bring out a whole new fashion collection at the same time?

FORD: Four of them.

I am so highly scheduled, which actually comes naturally to me. Occasionally, I'll get an email from a friend that will say, when can we

hang out. Just the concept -- hang out? What is hang out? Who has time for hanging out?

I could put it on my schedule between 2:00 and 4:00, I'm going to hang out. But I am just naturally a scheduled person. I like to be busy. I think

when you're excited by something in your life and for me right now, filmmaking is so exciting and something I am so passionate about. You're

better at everything you're doing creatively.

I've blocked out a certain time. There's one time of the year, there's a four-month window where I can make a film. I made "A Single Man" in the

exact same four months that I made this film.

However, editing, I set up my editing office here. I would edit for four hours. I would go to a fitting for two hours. I would come back and edit

for another four. Then go to a fitting. And when I was in those fittings, I was so excited by what I was doing.

In the editing room, I think the decisions I made creatively in terms of building a collection were better because I'm always excited.

AMANPOUR: So does Tom Ford stick with collections and his line? Or do you move more and more into film at the expense of fashion?

FORD: Oh, that's a hard question. You know, I think I would lose my mind in a way, I think being a director, being an actor, that business runs at a

different pace. You work very hard for very concentrated periods, and then you don't work for a while.

It takes three years at best as a filmmaker to write whatever you're writing, set it up, get it ready, put it up, shoot it. I think, you know,

for me, it's wonderful that I have an outlet in between that.

I like being busy. I like -- I think maybe being busy keeps me from thinking about the darker aspects of things my brain and my mind can tend

to be quite dark. And this film is quite dark.

AMANPOUR: Well, yes, and you've had an interesting life. And part of it, part of the film is set in Texas where you're from.

FORD: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Is it autobiographical in any way?

FORD: Oh, absolutely. It's autobiographical in so many ways.

Jake's character in the film says something -- he says, you know, nobody ever writes about anyone but themselves. And it's true. Whether you're an

artist, whether you're a sculptor, whether a painter, we see the world through our lens. And whatever you contribute of course has a lot of

yourself in it.

I wrote the screenplay for this as I did for "A Single Man." And so when you're writing characters, you're pulling bits and pieces. Because you're

sitting there saying, no, she wouldn't say that, she would say that. And so, of course, it's coming from you.

[14:20:15] AMANPOUR: And this election cycle, and frankly cycles all over, whether it's the Brexit cycle, whether it's what's happening in Europe

right now, whether it's what's happening in Russia.

Wherever it might be, there seems to be a real sense of anxiety, angst, a kind of violence in politics and violence in language, and narcissism, a

post-truth world.

FORD: Post-truth is exactly the world. And that is the world that Donald Trump is living in and it's so upsetting. And nothing seems to stick.

But, anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I get quite vehement when I hear that, because it is a post-truth world.

You know, the things that this man has said, which would have killed any politician's chances in a different era, and yet it doesn't seem to matter.

AMANPOUR: Do you think being part of popular culture as you are, and that he obviously is, but on the total other extreme, being a reality show, do

you think that we need as a society, to reassess our limits, our goals, our parameters --

FORD: Yes.


FORD: You want me to elaborate on that? Should I let you finish before I jump in?

AMANPOUR: No, I'm finished, because it is a very, very difficult moment right now.

FORD: It's a difficult moment and it represents unfortunately a trend which we've had which is a downward spiral in contemporary culture. There

was a moment in time when you know if you had no money and you hadn't had educational opportunity like a lot of other people, you aspired up. You

tried to learn. You pressed your clothes, you shined your shoes, you wanted to be better, you wanted to improve. And we seem to have lost that.

And, you know, we're all to blame.

I contribute to contemporary culture. You contribute to the news. The media contributes. We all contribute. And I don't know what the answer is

because we, we have created an environment that this can exist in, somehow. All of us culturally.

I don't know what the answer is. But it's shocking. It's very sad state. This could be an interesting tipping point. I'm hoping that Hillary wins.

I'm hoping that the fact that we got to this precipice, which is scary, might cause a swing-back, I hope. At least that's the optimistic side of

my personality.

AMANPOUR: Tom Ford, thank you very much, indeed.

FORD: Thank you.


AMANPOUR: And, again, "Nocturnal Animals" debuting here, premiering here on Friday night.

And then there is Bob Dylan.




AMANPOUR: His great anthem for peace there. Imagine a singer winning the Nobel Prize for literature. Dylan did just that today. The judges cited

his writing as poetry. Adding to the great American song tradition.

When we come back, imagining another life, one lived and lived and lived, the woman who could be the world's oldest refugee. Next.


AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine the brutal life and times of a Syrian refugee. And now imagine, a woman making that gruelling trip to

Greece at 115 years old. 115 years old.

Our Nima Elbagir brings us the incredible Eida.


NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Eida could be anyone's grandmother. She is, however, no ordinary grandma. Her story is

remarkable. She is showing every bit of her 115 years. She's lived through the fall of the Ottoman Empire, two world wars and was born before

the Wright Brothers even flew the world's first successful airplane.

Today, Eida is at Lesbos Port, waiting for the ferry to Athens. She's tired. This family not her own, cared for her on a long zigzag journey

from Syria to Greece.

Ahmed, the dad, carried Eida on his back for hundreds of kilometers. Eida is saying, "She knows it was really tiring for him, but I can't walk, she

says. And if you didn't do it, who would?

Her actual family is in Germany, but Eida refused to leave with them five years ago. Her dreams of seeing her children again, overwhelming.

Back at the port, Eida and her adopted family wait for the 8:00 boat. They watch as others board. Hours go by. The news about her journey isn't

good. Police say there's an issue with their paperwork. They can't take the ferry. At least not tonight.

Passports in hand, but not going anywhere.

Frustrated, Ahmed explains how they've sold everything just to be safe. What does he do next?

Eida's last wish in this life, she says is to see her own family again. She'll have to wait another day.

Nima Elbagir, CNN, London.


AMANPOUR: And two days later, Eida and the family she's traveling with were allowed to board the ferry to Athens, and that's where they are right

now as they figure out their next move.

That's it for our program tonight.

Remember, you can always listen to our podcast, see us online at and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thanks for watching

and good-bye from London.